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A Clash of Kings
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Martin, George R.R - A Clash of Kings (A Song of Ice and Fire, #2) buddy read start date July 5th 2011 - REVISIT JUNE 2017
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Lisarenee
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Jul 06, 2011 12:07PM
I thought it interesting none of the chapters in this book are attributed to Robb. Does this foreshadow he'll not last that long?
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Laura wrote: "I don't think the whole stag and direwolf was that a Baratheon would actually kill a Stark, just foreshadowing that going to King's Landing for Robert's sake was a bad idea..."You could be right!
I don't like Robb making a pact with King Stannis if he's under the influence of Lady Melisandre of Asshai. Talking about choosing the lesser of two evils...
Lisarenee wrote: "I thought it interesting none of the chapters in this book are attributed to Robb. Does this foreshadow he'll not last that long?"Probably!
Lisarenee wrote: "I thought it interesting none of the chapters in this book are attributed to Robb. Does this foreshadow he'll not last that long?"Robb's points of view come in Catelyn's chapters.
Laura wrote: "I don't think the whole stag and direwolf was that a Baratheon would actually kill a Stark, just foreshadowing that going to King's Landing for Robert's sake was a bad idea..."More on this... I also thought of where the wound on the dire wolf was... the chest/heart. So, you could very well be right, Laura.
So does that make Bran the next lord of Winterfell?
Yeah, well Ned had his own POV chapters too, for all the good it did him!
Lisarenee wrote: "So does that make Bran the next lord of Winterfell?"I've been wondering that myself!
Lisarenee wrote: "So does that make Bran the next lord of Winterfell?"You mean if Robb dies? Probably. It seems like women only inherit houses if there are no male heirs. So the line of succession probably goes Robb->Bran->Rickon->Sansa->Arya (even though Sansa and Arya are older than Bran).
I would NOT want Sansa to inherit Winterfell. And it's not because I don't like her (I think she's going to have some wonderful character development). It's because if she does, that means all the others are dead (except Arya!), but also, if she's forced to marry Joffrey then he'll have the north as well.
And I think it's safe to say no one wants Joffrey to win.
I don't think Sansa will ever marry 
Lisa Kay, Done! Changed.I don't think Stannis will make a pact with Robb if that red lady was guiding him. After all the furore about Stannis in the last book, I expected him to be something better. Oh well.
Also interesting is whether Bran will become a shaman or something similar. It's a guess though.
Lisarenee, I can do the questions for 9th July.
Vi’s Questions Chapter 4 (Bran) - Chapter 7 (Catelyn)1. I gotta ask: What are your theories regarding the wolves howling and Bran's reaction? (it might be childish but I have a feeling it might be important later on?)
I feel like the wolves all have a connection to one another. And how Bran reacts is an indication of how close the Stark children are with their wolves. Arya’s wolf is lost and so is she technically (at least to her family she is). Sansa’s wolf was killed and at the time all she wanted was to become a Lannister by marrying Joffrey, so it’s like she was turning away from being a Stark. Thus no Lady for her. Rickon and Shaggy are both very wild. Grey Wind and Summer are both very obedient and controlled as befits a King and a Lord.
2. The dream Bran has when he's supposed to have a dreamless sleep: what is he dreaming as? Is he a dire-wolf? Or is it symbolic of a time to come?
I don’t think it’s a regular dream considering he took something to stop dreams. It’s like he IS the wolf, which makes sense to me given the connection between the kids and their wolves. Maybe the dream and Bran howling are signs of the connection. He’s acting like a wolf when he’s awake and he is the wolf when he’s asleep (or something like that).
3. Arya rocks :P. Now we know who Bull was. Wonder how the queen knew? Littlefinger? Varys?
Arya does rock and I think she’s only going to get more awesome from here on out.
My guess is Varys told the queen. He has a tendency to be everywhere and in disguises and what not. And he only wants to serve the realm, so his alliances with individual people are always shifting.
4. Finally we get a little bit history on the King's history. I confess I got lost sometimes. Question is does this information serve any purpose later on?
I'd say the history doesn’t always have an importance later on. It’s all a part of the world building. If it does play a part later, I feel like it’s not something I would notice until a second read through the series. The sort of “Oh, and later on so-and-so does this” connection.
5. Whew, look at the list of demands in the treatise. Its more unbelievable as each item is read. Young as he is, I felt the terms could have been better. What's your thoughts?
My impression was that Robb didn't expect this treaty to be accepted. I think he’s sort of going through the motions because he doesn’t want peace between himself and the family that murdered his father. Of course, he's worried about his sisters, but Robb doesn't trust the Lannisters to actually give the girls back and Robb realizes that he can't make it personal. If a treaty is accepted, it has to be for the good of all houses in the north, not just the Starks.
6. Was Robb wise in letting the River lords depart? Maybe he could have granted them a reprieve instead of permanently? I can't help feeling that divided like this is not good.
The River lords aren’t really his men, though, right? Aren’t they Riverrun’s? Or is the word "river" just confusing me? So although Riverrun is siding with Robb, technically, I don’t think they are his men, not like how the northmen are. So there’s not much he can do without really annoying his allies. Plus, I think they have a point. Their lands and people are basically being raped and pillaged. They need to be there.
7. Theon is a wildcard. We will soon be having from his POV (self: no sides!) Do you think his going to his father heralding some thing? Any theories?
I am so split on Theon. He’s kind of a jerk and doesn’t always think things through, but he seems loyal and close to Robb. I feel like sending him alone to his father isn't smart. After all, Theon was technically a hostage in Winterfell because of something his father did (I can't remember what. I sometimes get all the houses confused). That being said, I expect Theon will go with good intentions (he does fight by Robb's side and they sort of grew up like brothers) but Theon's dad is likely to see this as an opportunity to cause trouble. And boys and men tend to want to please their fathers, and Theon hasn’t seen his in years.
8. Another theory question: Which would you prefer: Robb aligning with Renly or with Stannis or maybe Dany? At this rate, aligning with Renly is the possible solution since I think we are seeing Robb's inexperience with war here.
I’d say Renly is the only option where I think Robb has a chance of an alliance. Stannis is too rigid. He would never agree to it on the principle that the throne is rightfully his. And Dany, I don’t know when she’s going to join the rest of Westeros, so I don’t see that happening. Plus, I think she’s similar to Stannis in that she has her dragons, she’s a khaleesi and the Iron Throne is rightfully hers, so she wouldn’t stand for Robb being King in the North. Renly sort of ran away and he is the younger brother, so I don’t like his chances to claim the throne. But, he’s a nicer person overall, so I think he’d be more amenable to an alliance.
Questions Chapter 8 (Tyrion) - Chapter 11 (Theon) 17. Tyrion is flexing his power; think there will be repercussions? If so, from whom? Do you trust Ser Jacelyn Bywater to be loyal to Tyrion? Or to Varys?
18. “The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling.” Varys made this statement. What is your current take on him? Or hasn't it changed.
19. I wondered briefly about the “sudden plague of holy men” brought forth from the comet (Varys tells Tyrion); then I began to really wonder about them after reading of Theon’s uncle, the priest of the Drowned God, Aeron Greyjoy.
20. Arya and Bull; think they’ll become allies? Looking at the map, they are not even half way to their destination and Arya is seeing a lot of “scorched earth” from the warring factions; what effect will this have on her?
21. Do you think the wolves Arya encountered in the forest knew she was who she was? (That they knew Nymeria and thus recognized her – or just that she was a Stark?)
22. What is your take on Davos? Cautious, loyal, trustworthy, wily? Is there a distinction between him as a smuggler and Salladhor Saan as a pirate?
23. What is your opinion of the whole “Sword of Fire/Red Sword of Heroes” scene? What of Salladhor Saan’s recounting of the tale of Lightbringer?
24. King Stannis has burned the Seven gods and put his faith in his “red hawk”. Davos warns him his people will not love him for this. Comments?
25. Theon Greyjoy was getting a blow-job while thinking of his coming crown. A bit arrogant, right?
26. Like Theon, I fear I know which unprotected plum Lord Balon is planning on taking. You?
Response to Laura's Answers:#1 - "so it’s like she was turning away from being a Stark"
I agree with all your takes on the wolves except this one. I felt she had a knife at her throat.
#2 - "considering he took something to stop dreams"
Interesting. I was looking at the other way around, that whatever he took caused his dreams. I like this hypothesis! :)
#3 - "Varys told the queen. He has a tendency to be everywhere and in disguises"
Yes! I think we need to consider his disguises more!
#6 - I haven't figured it all out either, but I checked AGoT and Riverrun is not one of the houses under Winterfell.
#7 - "I am so split on Theon."
Me too. I think he is meant to be that way: 50/50. We'll see.
#8 - Hummmmm... I don't know about King Renly; I still think he might have set up Lord Eddard Stark and I'm holding a grudge.
Vi wrote: "Lisa Kay, Done! Changed."Thanks, Vi!
#1 - so it’s like she was turning away from being a StarkI agree with all your takes on the wolves except this one. I felt she had a knife at her throat.
I just feel like Sansa was more concerned about pleasing the queen and Joffrey because she very much wanted to marry him. And even if she didn't have a knife to her throat, she still wouldn't have tattled on Joffrey.
I'm not judging her for that, in fact I think it makes a lot of sense. She was raised in a land where that's what is expected of females. They are supposed to have soft hearts and want to get married and be good wives. Arya is just an exception to what is typical, which is common in all societies. She would rather take up a sword than a needle (unless it was Needle).
So Sansa was just torn between doing what she was taught to believe and telling the truth. And when it came down to it, she wanted to marry Joffrey more than she wanted to take her sister's side. Understandable because they are both very young and when you're so different from your sister at that age, it's like the end of the world. You want to disown her if possible and pretend like you're not related.
I haven't figured it all out either, but I checked AGoT and Riverrun is not one of the houses under Winterfell.
Mostly I think I'm confused about whether or not Robb had the right to deny allowing the River lords to split. Because on the one hand, the Tullys have allied with Robb. But on the other hand, Robb isn't their king (is he?). I don't think Riverrun is north enough to fall under the lands Robb claimed as King of the North.
Laura wrote: "I just feel like Sansa was more concerned about pleasing the queen and Joffrey because she very much wanted to marry him. And even if she didn't have a knife to her throat, she still wouldn't have tattled on Joffrey."True. She proved that when she sided with Joffrey over Arya in Mycah, the butcher boy, incident. She paid a high price for that. More than she realized, as I believe the loss of Lady is more than Sansa not being a lady, though I like your point about that.
Still, she eventually got a knife at her throat...
Lisa Kay wrote: "...Still, she eventually got a knife at her throat..."Most definitely. Poor Sansa is the character that I feel the worst for. All her hopes and dreams completely shattered and instead of her golden prince she finds out she got a cruel jail keeper.
Vi’s Questions Chapter 4 (Bran) - Chapter 7 (Catelyn)1. I gotta ask: What are your theories regarding the wolves howling and Bran's reaction? (it might be childish but I have a feeling it might be important later on?)
I don't really have a theory, but I feel that Bran is spiritually connected to the wolves. I thought it was strange that he howled like that, but it's almost as if he couldn't help himself...it was a compulsion.
2. The dream Bran has when he's supposed to have a dreamless sleep: what is he dreaming as? Is he a dire-wolf? Or is it symbolic of a time to come?
I think some of the shapeshifter books I've read are shaping my feelings on this. What if later on Bran is able to shift into a wolf and then have full use of 4 legs? This is fantasy so I guess anything can happen. Why did he dream when he wasn't supposed to? Nature overpowering medicinal power (well I guess that is natural too!) I like what Lisa Kay said earlier, what if Osha gave him something to enhance his dreams? There's a lot about her we may discover later on.
3. Arya rocks :P. Now we know who Bull was. Wonder how the queen knew? Littlefinger? Varys?
Arya definitely rocks. It was so brave of her to turn herself in to save her motley pals. I get the feeling Cersei knows all, and gets that knowledge from various sources. She is likely aware of all of Robert's bastards.
4. Finally we get a little bit history on the King's history. I confess I got lost sometimes. Question is does this information serve any purpose later on?
I read this section thinking I was glad that I wouldn't be quizzed on it. I agree with someone else on the boards who said it was likely there to enhance the world-building.
5. Whew, look at the list of demands in the treatise. Its more unbelievable as each item is read. Young as he is, I felt the terms could have been better. What's your thoughts?
I think in a negotiation one usually asks for more than is expected to get the discussion going. This was reminiscent of Walder Frey making his demands of Caitlyn and Robb.
6. Was Robb wise in letting the River lords depart? Maybe he could have granted them a reprieve instead of permanently? I can't help feeling that divided like this is not good.
I think the lords were justified in needing to protect their homes. I believe Robb can call them up later when he needs them (or am I mistaken?)
7. Theon is a wildcard. We will soon be having from his POV (self: no sides!) Do you think his going to his father heralding some thing? Any theories?
I've read a little ahead and will comment on this later.
8. Another theory question: Which would you prefer: Robb aligning with Renly or with Stannis or maybe Dany? At this rate, aligning with Renly is the possible solution since I think we are seeing Robb's inexperience with war here.
Can't remember which chapter it is in which someone says that dragons trump everything, but given this bit of information, I would want Robb to fight along with Dany.
Maybe they could marry and rule together. :-) Oh, but I want her with Ser Jorah...
Response to Sandy's Answers to Vi’s Questions Chapter 4 (Bran) - Chapter 7 (Catelyn) #1 (#9) - "almost as if he couldn't help himself...it was a compulsion"
Excellent way to put it! I concur.
#2 (#10) - "I like what Lisa Kay said earlier, what if Osha gave him something..."
Funny, because now I've changed my mind to Laura's idea that it was something to make him not dream, thus allowing him to "mind-meld" or whatever with Summer.
#3 (#11) - "She is likely aware of all of Robert's bastards."
Ahhhh... Do you mean, like, all along? From when they were born? Hmmm...
#6 (#14) - Sandy, I think you're right about King Robb's ability to call them to war at any time. But maybe I'm mistaken too, LOL!
#8 (#16) - "Oh, but I want her with Ser Jorah..."
You know, several people who saw the HBO series felt this way. Something came across on the screen that didn't in the book with regards to this (IMHO). Hummmm... G.M. helped with the production of that; I wonder what is in store for the two of them. Unrequited love on his part?
FYI I should get my questions up in the next couple of hours. I still need to read chapters 14 & 15. I'll post my questions then answer all the ones I've missed.
Questions Chapter 8 (Tyrion) - Chapter 11 (Theon)17. Tyrion is flexing his power; think there will be repercussions? If so, from whom? Do you trust Ser Jacelyn Bywater to be loyal to Tyrion? Or to Varys?
Based on what we've seen thus far, I think there are repurcussions for anyone who defies Cersei. Cersei has demanded that Tyrion apprise her of all his decisions, but he didn't tell her about his choice of Commander (I don't think he did anyway). It's hard to tell who will be loyal to whom. Perhaps the one with the deepest pockets will be the one who gains the most loyalty (This was demonstrated in Book 1 when Littlefinger bought the guard against Ned).
18. “The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling.” Varys made this statement. What is your current take on him? Or hasn't it changed.
Varys has a talent for survival. He is always one step ahead of the game so he believes himself to be untouchable. It appears he will always side with the victors. I have never liked him, and my opinion hasn't changed. I am interested in hearing his backstory, though.
19. I wondered briefly about the “sudden plague of holy men” brought forth from the comet (Varys tells Tyrion); then I began to really wonder about them after reading of Theon’s uncle, the priest of the Drowned God, Aeron Greyjoy.
I wondered about this too, but hasn't the uncle been holy since before the comet appeared? And what made him change so drastically from the fun-loving uncle that Theon remembered?
20. Arya and Bull; think they’ll become allies? Looking at the map, they are not even half way to their destination and Arya is seeing a lot of “scorched earth” from the warring factions; what effect will this have on her?
Yes, I think they will become allies. it will be interesting when/if the truth comes out about both of them. I think Arya's experiences, while horrific, are making her stronger and will serve to enhance her will and ability to help her family triumph.
21. Do you think the wolves Arya encountered in the forest knew she was who she was? (That they knew Nymeria and thus recognized her – or just that she was a Stark?)
Oh my gosh I expected her to see Nymeria in this scene! I think she, like Bran, could be spiritually connected to the wolves and they recognize her as a sister.
22. What is your take on Davos? Cautious, loyal, trustworthy, wily? Is there a distinction between him as a smuggler and Salladhor Saan as a pirate?
He is an interesting character. I like how he is very thoughtful in his words and actions, and how he demonstrated his love and loyalty to his plain wife. He has paid for his past crimes with his fingers and I believe that he is loyal to Stannis (at least for now!)
23. What is your opinion of the whole “Sword of Fire/Red Sword of Heroes” scene? What of Salladhor Saan’s recounting of the tale of Lightbringer?
My reaction is that this was smoke and mirrors created by Melisandre to bring more people into her way of believing. The Lightbringer tale had a disturbing ending. I hope it's just a myth!
24. King Stannis has burned the Seven gods and put his faith in his “red hawk”. Davos warns him his people will not love him for this. Comments?
Davos realizes that Stannis is spitting in the face of his subjects' beliefs. I think it's courageous of Davos to tell him this. Stannis could easily have him executed for displeasing him. It's something Stannis needs to hear, though. I've mentioned before that it appears to me that Stannis is under a spell.
25. Theon Greyjoy was getting a blow-job while thinking of his coming crown. A bit arrogant, right?
OK, my opinion of Greyjoy has been forever changed. I now think he's a complete jackass. I can't help but feel a bit sorry for him for the way he was received back at "home" though.
26. Like Theon, I fear I know which unprotected plum Lord Balon is planning on taking. You?
No, I have no idea! What do you think??
Sandy wrote:#18 ... It appears he will always side with the victors. I have never liked him, and my opinion hasn't changed.
Varys is that guy who will drop alliances at the drop of the hat. He claimed to Ned Stark that he serves the realm and not any one person, but it's also for his own sake as well, to make sure that he survives when power shifts hands. I think he'll last throughout the whole series because of this, but that something horrible will happen to him in the last book. Someone will eventually get tired of his shifting loyalties.
Questions for Chapter 12(Daenerys) - Chapter 15(Thyrion)27. Interesting that the comet came into view when the dragons were born. Daenarys sees this as a sign of where she should take her people. Interesting. Any ideas as to how she'll come to be a contender for the throne? What do you think of the three people brought to her by Jhogo?
28. Finally find out more about Ser Jorah. Do you think his feelings for Daenerys will benefit her or prove to be a problem later?
29. Jon and his "brothers" are finding abandoned and empty towns. Forest void of wild life. Anyone thinking we're going to have an interesting night very soon? Where did everyone go?
30. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Anyone surprised that Yoren didn't let the soldiers in? Why would they kill everyone including the men in black? Do you think they were after Gendry?
31. Do you think Arya will regret helping to free the three men who were shackled in the wagon?
32. Cersei must really have hated Robert. She keeps killing his bastards. Do you think it's because they might make people think her children weren't his, or did she just hate Robert that much that she wanted to wipe all signs of him from the earth?
33. What do you think of Littlefinger's plan to have Stannis' daughter's paternity come into question?
34. What did you think of the secret passage? I had no idea what Tyrion was up to.
Vi’s Questions Chapter 4 (Bran) - Chapter 7 (Catelyn)9. I gotta ask: What are your theories regarding the wolves howling and Bran's reaction? (it might be childish but I have a feeling it might be important later on?)
I'm thinking Bran has a special link to the wolves. I'm not sure how it works or what it entails, but I believe there is one.
10. The dream Bran has when he's supposed to have a dreamless sleep: what is he dreaming as? Is he a dire-wolf? Or is it symbolic of a time to come?
I'm thinking he may have taken possession of his direwolf's form. Does that sound crazy? Would be cool if he did.
11. Arya rocks :P. Now we know who Bull was. Wonder how the queen knew? Littlefinger? Varys?
I think she always makes sure to keep track of Richard's bastards and now has free reign to off them with no foreseeable consequences.
12. Finally we get a little bit history on the King's history. I confess I got lost sometimes. Question is does this information serve any purpose later on?
Probably, but we'll have to wait and see. Love that we're finally getting some answers to things that have gone on in the past.
13. Whew, look at the list of demands in the treatise. Its more unbelievable as each item is read. Young as he is, I felt the terms could have been better. What's your thoughts?
I think he should have asked someone else for some input. He seemed to not see the need for it. Not wise.
14. Was Robb wise in letting the River lords depart? Maybe he could have granted them a reprieve instead of permanently? I can't help feeling that divided like this is not good.
I'm unsure at this point.
15. Theon is a wildcard. We will soon be having from his POV (self: no sides!) Do you think his going to his father heralding some thing? Any theories?
It will be interesting to finally find out about his father and what went on between him and Eddard.
16. Another theory question: Which would you prefer: Robb aligning with Renly or with Stannis or maybe Dany? At this rate, aligning with Renly is the possible solution since I think we are seeing Robb's inexperience with war here.
I want Robb to align with Dany, but alas that probably won't happen. I have no idea at this point who would be the right person to align with. None of them seem ideal.
Questions Chapter 8 (Tyrion) - Chapter 11 (Theon)
17. Tyrion is flexing his power; think there will be repercussions? If so, from whom? Do you trust Ser Jacelyn Bywater to be loyal to Tyrion? Or to Varys?
Right now I think no one is loyal to anyone. Yes, I think Tyrion will suffer repercussions. My guess from Joeffy
18. “The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling.” Varys made this statement. What is your current take on him? Or hasn't it changed.
I think he is just trying to keep himself alive and leave all options open. Like to know the story behind him becoming a Eunuch.
19. I wondered briefly about the “sudden plague of holy men” brought forth from the comet (Varys tells Tyrion); then I began to really wonder about them after reading of Theon’s uncle, the priest of the Drowned God, Aeron Greyjoy.
I guess we'll find out. Unsure at this point.
20. Arya and Bull; think they’ll become allies? Looking at the map, they are not even half way to their destination and Arya is seeing a lot of “scorched earth” from the warring factions; what effect will this have on her?
I don't know but it'd be nice if she had someone else at her back.
21. Do you think the wolves Arya encountered in the forest knew she was who she was? (That they knew Nymeria and thus recognized her – or just that she was a Stark?)
I wondered that too. Kept hoping that Nymeria would show up again.
22. What is your take on Davos? Cautious, loyal, trustworthy, wily? Is there a distinction between him as a smuggler and Salladhor Saan as a pirate?
He's still a wild card to me at this point. Don't know enough about him to gather an opinion yet.
23. What is your opinion of the whole “Sword of Fire/Red Sword of Heroes” scene? What of Salladhor Saan’s recounting of the tale of Lightbringer?
It sounded made up and goofy. Someone obviously planted the sword. Weird.
24. King Stannis has burned the Seven gods and put his faith in his “red hawk”. Davos warns him his people will not love him for this. Comments?
Stannis is not that smart. He's a bitter man and has no common sense. Davos is correct.
25. Theon Greyjoy was getting a blow-job while thinking of his coming crown. A bit arrogant, right?
I totally dislike Theon at this point. Seems like a jerk.
26. Like Theon, I fear I know which unprotected plum Lord Balon is planning on taking. You?
No I must have missed something.
#3 (#11) - "She is likely aware of all of Robert's bastards."Ahhhh... Do you mean, like, all along? From when they were born? Hmmm...
Theirs was not a love match so surely she was aware of all his infidelities. If she didn't know about the babies at first she likely found out before Robert died. Isn't the theory that she (or someone) killed Jon Arryn because he was researching what the bastards looked like?
#8 (#16) - "Oh, but I want her with Ser Jorah..."
You know, several people who saw the HBO series felt this way. Something came across on the screen that didn't in the book with regards to this (IMHO). Hummmm... G.M. helped with the production of that; I wonder what is in store for the two of them. Unrequited love on his part?
I don't know if I would feel this way from the book alone, quite honestly. Have you read Dany's chapter? You may be onto something!
Sandy, I thought Jon Arryn was killed because he knew that Robert's sons were really not his.
Questions for Chapter 12(Daenerys) - Chapter 15(Thyrion)27. Interesting that the comet came into view when the dragons were born. Daenarys sees this as a sign of where she should take her people. Interesting. Any ideas as to how she'll come to be a contender for the throne? What do you think of the three people brought to her by Jhogo?
She wants the throne.She has proclaimed herself queen. I think somehow she will use (not in a bad way) Ser Jorah to offer an alliance somewhere. My initial reaction to the three people: Oh, no! They want to kill the dragons!! (I sincerely hope I am wrong!)
28. Finally find out more about Ser Jorah. Do you think his feelings for Daenerys will benefit her or prove to be a problem later?
I think it could benefit her because it cements his loyalty to her. I like how she tried to picture being with him, but always saw Drogo. She has only recently become a widow so maybe with time she can love again.
29. Jon and his "brothers" are finding abandoned and empty towns. Forest void of wild life. Anyone thinking we're going to have an interesting night very soon? Where did everyone go?
I love the tension building. This could get very intense.
30. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Anyone surprised that Yoren didn't let the soldiers in? Why would they kill everyone including the men in black? Do you think they were after Gendry?
Yoren knew they would kill them no matter what. These people don't fight fairly. I'm not sure who they were... I thought they were Lannister allies out to destroy anyone not on their side.
31. Do you think Arya will regret helping to free the three men who were shackled in the wagon?
I'm torn about this. Her saving them shows she has a sympathetic character. But did they die anyway after Arya escaped into the tunnel? And what aout the little girl?
32. Cersei must really have hated Robert. She keeps killing his bastards. Do you think it's because they might make people think they weren't his, or did she just hate Robert that much that she wanted to wipe all signs of him from the earth?
Cersei wants no evidence that her children aren't Robert's. Real Genetics aside, the characters would see the dark-haired bastards and put 2 and 2 together.
33. What do you think of Littlefinger's plan to have Stannis' daughter's paternity come into question?
Sounds like he is fighting fire with fire. I am surprised he didn't come up with something else, though.
34. What did you think of the secret passage? I had no idea what Tyrion was up to.
I have no idea either. He is dressing like a child to disguise himself, but to what end?
Sandy said, "My initial reaction to the three people: Oh, no! They want to kill the dragons!! (I sincerely hope I am wrong!)"I thought they might want to steal them.
Sandy wrote: "Isn't the theory that she (or someone) killed Jon Arryn because he was researching what the bastards looked like?"Lisarenee wrote: "Sandy, I thought Jon Arryn was killed because he knew that Robert's sons were really not his."
But the reason he knew was because he saw what the bastards looked like. Ned Stark took one look at Gendry and knew the boy was Robert's because he looked like the king. Plus, Jon Arryn found the records showing that when a Lannister married a Baratheon the black Baratheon hair color came through. However, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all have Lannister hair because Jaimie is the father.
So Jon Arryn had to be killed because he could bring forward the bastards and the record and prove that none of Cersei's children were the king's.
I am so tempted to get the dvds for the first season. Especially after all the talk.
The show follows the book quite well, with a few added scenes here and there for effect. It is gory.
Lisarenee wrote: "Sandy, I thought Jon Arryn was killed because he knew that Robert's sons were really not his."True, Lord Jon Arryn knew -- or was close enough to knowing -- about
My responses to Sandy’s answers:#17 - “the deepest pockets will be the one who gains the most loyalty…”
Oh, I like this. Sort of poetic justice for the rich Lannisters.
#18 - “I am interested in hearing his backstory, though.”
Ditto!
#19 - “hasn't the uncle been holy since before the comet appeared?”
True, but I got the impression Theon’s Uncle Arton (Damphair) would play a linchpin role when Varys said that to Tyrion when I put the two together.
#20 - “Arya's experiences, while horrific, are making her stronger…”
Yes, I do like that way Martin shows the development of his strong heroines – and I do think she’ll b/c resilient.
#21 - “I expected her to see Nymeria in this scene!”
Me too! Hoping, really.
“and they recognize her as a sister…”
Interesting! But do you think they had a previous encounter with Nymeria?
#22 - “he is loyal to Stannis (at least for now!)”
Ahhh… another interesting comment, “for now!” What could make him change his loyalty? I’m thinking if he realized that Lady Melisandre of Asshai has control of him?
#23 - “smoke and mirrors”
Ditto!
#26 - “No, I have no idea! What do you think?”
(view spoiler)
My Reponses to Lisarenee’s Answers#10 - “I'm thinking he may have taken possession of his direwolf's form.”
Wow! That’s a little different than my “mind meld” theory. You may have worthy hypothesis here.
#11 - “I think she always makes sure to keep track of Richard's bastards…”
Ditto! (Of course, I didn’t come to this conclusion until yesterday, when Sandy poked my brain. **hee hee**)
#15 - “what went on between him and Eddard”
Do you mean the logistics of how/when his son, Theon, became Eddard’s ward/hostage? I’m not sure, but I’m betting Ned did it as an act of compassion (he didn’t believe in making war with children) that will come back to haunt his own children.
#20 - “it'd be nice if she had someone else at her back”
Ditto!
#26 - “No I must have missed something.”
(view spoiler)
Lisa Kay’ Answers to Lisarenee’s Questions for Chapter 12 (Daenerys) - Chapter 15 (Thyrion) 27. Interesting that the comet came into view when the dragons were born. Daenarys sees this as a sign of where she should take her people. Interesting. Any ideas as to how she'll come to be a contender for the throne? What do you think of the three people brought to her by Jhogo?
Out of all the people thinking the comet relates to them, I’m think Daenarys is the only one who is right. I believe she will wage war on those who pissed her off when her husband, Khal Drogo, was so sick and died. First, she must conquer the Dothraki before she takes on the Seven Kingdoms. What a way to end that chapter. I’m thinking they want those dragons, by hook or by crook!
28. Finally find out more about Ser Jorah. Do you think his feelings for Daenerys will benefit her or prove to be a problem later?
My gut tells me his is suffering from a “knight’s unrequited love” syndrome that will be beneficial to Dany; however, with Martin as the writer of this tale, I’m at a loss on this one, so I’ll go with 50/50 chance it’ll be a problem later.
29. Jon and his "brothers" are finding abandoned and empty towns. Forest void of wild life. Anyone thinking we're going to have an interesting night very soon? Where did everyone go?
Yes, very soon! I loved the comment about why the wildings burned their dead. Spooky. Don’t know where they went – if they fled south, are hiding in the forest, or if the zombies got them.
30. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Anyone surprised that Yoren didn't let the soldiers in? Why would they kill everyone including the men in black? Do you think they were after Gendry?
I wasn’t a bit surprised Yoren took a stand. They were going to kill them all no matter what, that was their assignment, to ensure the death of whoever they were seeking. There was a good possibility they were after Gendry, but they did mention not only Lord Beric, but the House of Donarrion. Wasn’t someone sent out after Donarrion in AGoT? Goodness, I can’t remember who. I think Donarrion was raiding, but I can’t remember if he was on Stark, Lannister, or his own side.
31. Do you think Arya will regret helping to free the three men who were shackled in the wagon?
Beats the poop out of me. I was plenty worried when she did. Pretty risky of her. I was completely torn over this one. Terrible way to die, but they were a little wicked-wacko-scary. Admired her compassion and bravery.
32. Cersei must really have hated Robert. She keeps killing his bastards. Do you think it's because they might make people think her children weren't his, or did she just hate Robert that much that she wanted to wipe all signs of him from the earth?
I am amazed at her depth of loathing for King Robert. What a degree of denial an inappropriate prospection that woman has. I’m going with both on this one too. Geez, I’m reminding myself a bit of Switzerland, being right down the middle most of the time.
33. What do you think of Littlefinger's plan to have Stannis' daughter's paternity come into question?
Now, here it gets interesting. You ladies are the ones who made me realize how devious Littlefinger is. I think he came up with this b/c, in reality, it will always carry with it the “paternity” issue, which always brings it back to
34. What did you think of the secret passage? I had no idea what Tyrion was up to.
At first, I thought he was following in Lords Arryn and Stark’s footsteps and searching for more info on King Robert’s bastards. So, needless to say, that totally threw me. Ever the romantic, for some reason I didn’t want him to be disloyal to Shae. I still don’t know what he is up to; nevertheless, whatever it, is it is going to be a nightly occurrence.
My responses to Sandy’s answers:#27 - They want to kill the dragons!!
Humm…. I don’t think so; I think they want control of them.
#28 - “…but always saw Drogo.”
Me too. She is still in love with him. **sigh**
#30 – We think alike!
#31 – I’m worried about the little girl also! Wonder if abandon her if she can’t keep up or if we'll meet her later. There is no one to leave her with along the way.
#33 – Sandy, see my answer on this one!
Question: What did you think of the secret passage? I had no idea what Tyrion was up to.Lisa Kay's response: At first, I thought he was following in Lords Arryn and Stark’s footsteps and searching for more info on King Robert’s bastards. So, needless to say, that totally threw me. Ever the romantic, for some reason I didn’t want him to be disloyal to Shae. I still don’t know what he is up to; nevertheless, whatever it, is it is going to be a nightly occurrence.
My counter response: I was thinking the same thing as you. From hoping he wouldn't cheat to thinking he was looking for more bastards. How funny.
Lisarenee wrote: "I was thinking the same thing as you. From hoping he wouldn't cheat to thinking he was looking for more bastards. How funny."Mind-meld! :)
Am having one of those days. Will attempt to get questions up by 5PM. I've been running around all day.
It
must
be contagious or another mind-meld! I haven't even done the reading yet. Most unusual. :) I am going to give a negligent shrug and go with it.
Questions for Chapters 16 (Bran) - Chapter 19 (Arya)I am so loving this series...
35) Thought it was fun that Bran tried to do a little matchmaking between Ser Roderick and Lady Hornwood. He has so much to learn about the way of things. His dream this time recounted what happened to him when he was injured. Do you think he finally remembers everything? Do you think if it's ever revealed what happened that Jaime's fate will change? Any thoughts on what his punishment should be?
36) What medicine/potion do you think Tyrion took from Varys?
37) We now know that Tyrion is the one who sent men to look for Arya. What do you think of all the plans he's putting into place?
38)Do you think Sansa is wise to team up with ser Dontos? Does she have any other options?
39) The hound makes me nervous when he's around Sansa. Anyone else feeling this way?
40)Gah! Arya just can't seem to get a break. Every time I think things have gotten really bad they get worse. Anyone else worried here?
41) I'm really starting to like Gendry. I like how he called Arya on being a girl. He was funny when he found out she was a lady. Any thoughts/opinions on Gendry?
Lisarenee, I'm going to post my answers to Chapters 16 (Bran) - Chapter 19 (Arya) with the numbers changed.
My Answers to Lisarenee’s Questions for Chapters 16 (Bran) - Chapter 19 (Arya) I am so loving this series...
Me too!
35) Thought it was fun that Bran tried to do a little matchmaking between Ser Roderick and Lady Hornwood. He has so much to learn about the way of things. His dream this time recounted what happened to him when he was injured. Do you think he finally remembers everything? Do you think if it's ever revealed what happened that Jaime's fate will change? Any thoughts on what his punishment should be?
I thought it was pretty much a given that Bran finally remembered. You are making me second guess myself now, Lisarenee! I think this could absolutely impact Ser Jaime Lanniser’s fate. At first I thought them might kill him, but then I started thinking they will probably want something more on the lines of “an eye for an eye”.
36) What medicine/potion do you think Tyrion took from Varys?
God! Just that question brings up my image of him. For the first time I saw his “impish” behavior. I have no idea! LOL!
37) We now know that Tyrion is the one who sent men to look for Arya. What do you think of all the plans he's putting into place?
We do? Oh, yes… I mean, “We do!” Again, I have no idea what he is up to, but I must say I am getting a chuckle out of it. :)
38) Do you think Sansa is wise to team up with ser Dontos? Does she have any other options?
I am so afraid for her. I don’t blame her. Do you mean The Hound as an option? Hmmmm…
39) The hound makes me nervous when he's around Sansa. Anyone else feeling this way?
He does make me nervous. He has done so many terrible things so coldly. But then he is seems to slip in a “gentle” touch at times with Sansa, when he could certainly be brutal. I just don’t know!
40) Gah! Arya just can't seem to get a break. Every time I think things have gotten really bad they get worse. Anyone else worried here?
I agree. I just wanted to scream! Out of the frying pan, into the fire. I am so worried they will discover she is a girl and she'll get raped. I don’t know if I’ll be able to handle that, if it happens.
41) I'm really starting to like Gendry. I like how he called Arya on being a girl. He was funny when he found out she was a lady. Any thoughts/opinions on Gendry?
I’m liking him too. I liked that he could finally laugh, especially when he fell. I’m a little pissed he got caught and talked of abandoning Weasel, but maybe I’ll forgive him.
Chapter 20 Tyrion - Chapter 23 Jon42. I wish Tyrion could be king. He knows exactly what to do in situations and this chapter gives more evidence of this. Did you know who the "informer" was immediately when Cersei mentioned Myrcella? Did you feel sad for Cersei at all when she began to cry and Tyrion tried to comfort her? I felt more for Tyrion. It seems like he has much to give , but his family just doesn't see it.
Best line:
"The longer Cersei waits, the angrier she'll become, and anger makes her stupid. I much prefer angry and stupid to compose and cunning." I have to agree with Tyrion on that one.
43. What was your first impression of Jojen & Meera? What did you think of the oath they gave, do you think it had any real meaning or just words they memorized?
44. Why do you think Jojen wants to see the direwolves so much? Do you think his sister has the same kind of connection with the direwolves? Do you think Bran, Jojen and the wolves are all connected?
45. What was your first impression when Catelyn approach Lord Renly's little "party"? Her thoughts pretty much summed it up for me:"They are boys drunk on song and story..."
46. What do you think of Brienne? Will she play an important role in the story? Do you feel the tiniest bit sorry for her? Her character reminds me a little bit of "Jane" from the HBO show Deadwood. Real tough on the outside, but there's something about her that makes me feel sad for her.
47."King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service..those I must have" Should Robb join Renly? I don't think Renly had any of those for his brother, so I think it's funny he's asking that of Robb.
48. What is up with all the incest in the book. Craster makes me sick. I cringed when he said "I'm a godly man, and the Gods keep me safe.." Do you think Sam did the right think sending Gilly to Jon? Do you think Jon should have done something for Gilly?
49. Who do you think the Cold Gods, white shadows are? Do you think they eat the children Craster gives them or raises them?
50. I'm getting a bad feeling about Sam. Anyone else think something bad is gonna happen to him?
My Answers to Kellyflower’s Questions Chapter 20 Tyrion - Chapter 23 Jon 42. I wish Tyrion could be king. He knows exactly what to do in situations and this chapter gives more evidence of this. Did you know who the "informer" was immediately when Cersei mentioned Myrcella? Did you feel sad for Cersei at all when she began to cry and Tyrion tried to comfort her? I felt more for Tyrion. It seems like he has much to give , but his family just doesn't see it.
Best line: "The longer Cersei waits, the angrier she'll become, and anger makes her stupid. I much prefer angry and stupid to compose and cunning." I have to agree with Tyrion on that one.
I’ve thought Tyrion would be a fair ruler for quite a while now. Yup, knew right away who the “informer” was. I am pretty much immune to Queen Regent Cersei right now, and I can’t see that changing. I have to agree with you, Kellyflower, that was a good line; Tyrion gets the best ones.
43. What was your first impression of Jojen & Meera? What did you think of the oath they gave; do you think it had any real meaning or just words they memorized?
I think it meant something to them.
44. Why do you think Jojen wants to see the direwolves so much? Do you think his sister has the same kind of connection with the direwolves? Do you think Bran, Jojen and the wolves are all connected?
That I don’t know, but now that you mentioned it, maybe. I was just thinking they wanted to see a creature of legend.
45. What was your first impression when Catelyn approach Lord Renly's little "party"? Her thoughts pretty much summed it up for me: "They are boys drunk on song and story..."
Ditto! Disgusting? Yes. Stupid waste? Also yes. Glad Catelyn zinged in a couple verbal jabs.
46. What do you think of Brienne? Will she play an important role in the story? Do you feel the tiniest bit sorry for her? Her character reminds me a little bit of "Jane" from the HBO show Deadwood. Real tough on the outside, but there's something about her that makes me feel sad for her.
I’ve never seen Deadwood, but she does remind me of bit of Sansa – very idealistic in her perception of someone, in this case King Renly. Sad. Still, she seems to have enough strength and determination, she could make him King of it all.
47. "King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service..those I must have…" Should Robb join Renly? I don't think Renly had any of those for his brother, so I think it's funny he's asking that of Robb.
I don’t think King Robb should join with King Renly, but I think he will. I think King Renly is going to use the Starks and then turn on them.
48. What is up with all the incest in the book. Craster makes me sick. I cringed when he said "I'm a godly man, and the Gods keep me safe…" Do you think Sam did the right think sending Gilly to Jon? Do you think Jon should have done something for Gilly?
Disgusting, yes. I’m getting a little sick of all the incest too, and now it is only getting worse. Cersei and Jaime were two consenting adults (or at least the same age), whereas Craster is wielding the power of his age and authority. It has made me put the book down several times, swearing I’ll never pick it back up again.
Initially, I was a little pissed that Sam sent Gilly to Jon, but I understood why he did. I guess I empathized with Jon’s frustration at his inability to do anything. However, Jon may yet do something; even if Gilly doesn’t survive, it will have an impact on any decisions he makes in the future.
49. Who do you think the Cold Gods, white shadows are? Do you think they eat the children Craster gives them or raises them?
I’m thinking they are the Zombie Others and that they eat (do Zombies eat?) the ones they don’t raise.
50. I'm getting a bad feeling about Sam. Anyone else think something bad is gonna happen to him?
Nope. Why? Now you have me worried too!
Lisarenee, I believe I can do the questions for tomorrow, if you want. I'll still need a back-up person.
Chapter 20 Tyrion - Chapter 23 Jon42. I wish Tyrion could be king. He knows exactly what to do in situations and this chapter gives more evidence of this. Did you know who the "informer" was immediately when Cersei mentioned Myrcella? Did you feel sad for Cersei at all when she began to cry and Tyrion tried to comfort her? I felt more for Tyrion. It seems like he has much to give , but his family just doesn't see it.
Best line:
"The longer Cersei waits, the angrier she'll become, and anger makes her stupid. I much prefer angry and stupid to compose and cunning." I have to agree with Tyrion on that one.
Tyrion has the best lines. Such a fun character. He does seem to have a good head on his shoulders for becoming King. I was unsure who the informer was, but probably should have read that part again.
I do not feel bad for Cersei. She's horrible.
43. What was your first impression of Jojen & Meera? What did you think of the oath they gave, do you think it had any real meaning or just words they memorized?
I wasn't sure what to think of them and then there was the dream. They seem a little obsessed with the direwolves.
44. Why do you think Jojen wants to see the direwolves so much? Do you think his sister has the same kind of connection with the direwolves? Do you think Bran, Jojen and the wolves are all connected?
I'm still puzzled about their want to see the direwolves. Could be like the dragons. Everyone wants them.
45. What was your first impression when Catelyn approach Lord Renly's little "party"? Her thoughts pretty much summed it up for me:"They are boys drunk on song and story..."
He's a fool in king's clothing.
46. What do you think of Brienne? Will she play an important role in the story? Do you feel the tiniest bit sorry for her? Her character reminds me a little bit of "Jane" from the HBO show Deadwood. Real tough on the outside, but there's something about her that makes me feel sad for her.
I'm not sure about her. She does make an interesting character and will look forward to seeing what Martin will do with her.
47."King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service..those I must have" Should Robb join Renly? I don't think Renly had any of those for his brother, so I think it's funny he's asking that of Robb.
IMHO, I wouldn't trust him. I think Robert's family was meant to be Kings.
48. What is up with all the incest in the book. Craster makes me sick. I cringed when he said "I'm a godly man, and the Gods keep me safe.." Do you think Sam did the right think sending Gilly to Jon? Do you think Jon should have done something for Gilly?
I was thinking the same thing about the incest. We're getting it from all sides. I hope we're done with that, but why do I feel we're not.
49. Who do you think the Cold Gods, white shadows are? Do you think they eat the children Craster gives them or raises them?
I don't think it's Gods that would be eating them, then again it seems in this book anything goes.
50. I'm getting a bad feeling about Sam. Anyone else think something bad is gonna happen to him?
I think he'll try to run off with one of Craster's wives.
Nothing But Reading Challenges
Books mentioned in this topic
A Dance with Dragons (other topics)A Game of Thrones (other topics)
A Game of Thrones (other topics)
A Game of Thrones (other topics)
Honor's Splendour (other topics)
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