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The House by the Sea: A journal - Sarton ~ July 2011
hi im lori! i ordered mine from amazon... hoping to get it next week.... i would like to join in on the discussion!
Lori, welcome to this book discussion, then! I'm looking forward to reading what others think of Sarton's book. For me her thoughts & insights on nature and on aging are worth reading. deborah
Great to have you aboard, Lori. With the holiday weekend, I don't think the discussion will really get going till after that anyway. Hope you enjoy, Sarton.
In the preface (P8) Sarton writes, "But the most imperative reason was that I had been through a traumatic personal experience in Nelson in the last two years there, and the house itself felt contaminated by pain."And on P 17 Wednesday Nov. 13th she writes, "For two years I have not been able to listen to music because opening that door had become too painful after the hell of the last two years in Nelson."
Forgive me for my faulty memory, did she mention this event in Journal of Solitude? I am guessing it was the breakup with her girlfriend or some depressive episode. However, I'm not sure. Anyone know what she is referencing?
Re: November 1977I found it interesting that the first month of this journal, November, has many topics that are still just as relevant today as they were in 1977 when she wrote the journal. For example: war, religious fanatics, fundamentalist, consumerism, and obesity.
Also at the end of the November 18 entry she writes about "true joys" being nature, art and human love. "True joy" has nothing to do with money or influence she posits. However, I wonder if as a society we say we agree with Sarton's premise but act otherwise and worship at the alter of money and affluence.
November 20thI smiled when she mentioned Maslow. I recall studying his theory of Hierarchy of Needs in college.
Here is a link if you've forgotten the details of Maslow's theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow&#...
November I also enjoy getting glimpses of history through someone who is writing about them contemporaneously.
(FDR at Yalta, My Lai, and Churchill)
It makes the sentiment seem more genuine to me. That it would be less likely to have the filter of time attached to the subject.
Alias Reader wrote: "Forgive me for my faulty memory, did she mention this event in Journal of Solitude? I am guessing it was the breakup with her girlfriend or some depressive episode. However, I'm not sure. Anyone know what she is referencing? ..."Her references were oblique but i made the same presumption you did, Alias. It seemed each time she was with one friend (from whom she'd been apart a specifically mentioned number of days), she alluded to the anguish of departing and issues which arose while together, as well as hinting at another problem. Indeed, i was a bit peeved that she didn't give us more information. It was as though the book were written for the eyes of those she knew would understand. Fine, then edit it out of your journal or give us more info!
Like you, i smiled when Maslow was mentioned as for years i've found his pyramid of self-actualization a positive approach to life & its problems. I think she also mentioned his name in an earlier book, but i'm not sure. When i recognize a name or theory in her writing, i feel more included. One hopes that subsequent printings might include footnotes to help readers with those names.
And again i'll echo your post on her writing of history. For some issues, i had forgotten the ire of the day so "resolved" have those issues become. Indeed, occasionally i find myself bored with the fact she's brought it up. However, she had a way of linking some of them to her own life or ideals, which makes most just as interesting today.
Finally, Alias wonders: ""True joy" has nothing to do with money or influence she posits. However, I wonder if as a society we say we agree with Sarton's premise but act otherwise and worship at the alter of money and affluence."
I think we think we agree with her premise and live up to it. However, i'm generally of the opinion that we often act otherwise, hoping others who feel the way we do will work for change. One small example which comes to my mind is the food industry. In the '70s, when this book was written, it was expensive and difficult to pursue chemical-free produce and even whole wheat flour without locating a co-op. As we moved around the country we either joined or began such co-ops, as they were our sole resource for such products. Today those items are available at grocery chains, including Safeway, Giant, Kroger and even Walmart.
Meaning today we CAN hold an ideal without compromising our budgets. This is just one example which was my family's personal issue. Living close to the land, via food & living circumstances was a big one on a family level. I wonder if the recently popular "artisanal" food industry isn't a reflection of this, too. The opportunity individuals who are often children of my generation living a dream awfully tough to follow in the '70s.
It seems to me that Sarton was living a bit of that dream. While not wealthy while pursuing it, she only had herself to look out for, whereas many of us were starting families and careers. Several of these thoughts and examples crossed my mind as i read her book last night. I'm wondering what others here think?
deb
Deb: It seems to me that Sarton was living a bit of that dream. While not wealthy while pursuing it, she only had herself to look out for, whereas many of us were starting families and careers. Several of these thoughts and examples crossed my mind as i read her book last night. I'm wondering what others here think?-------------------
I'm not sure. She may not have had a traditional family, but she was in relationships. So she had the trials and tribulations that others have with such relationships. Maybe more so, I'm not sure what the climate was in 1977 in regards to how open society was to a lesbian. Since she doesn't discuss it in the books, I have to assume it wasn't accepted. That alone must add to the stress of her life.
We also know she was clinically depressed. Which can make day to day life very difficult. Especially when one must support oneself.
I also think trying to support oneself by being an author or poet can't be easy. Income I would think is a bit hit and miss. I've also read her poetry wasn't very well received. I'm not sure if she taught on occasion. If she did, it doesn't seem like a steady gig.
Good points, all around, Alias. She might have had as many burdens as someone who tried to follow a similar life but had, for example, a child. But by virtue of being more traditional, they might have had it easier. Still, things which chain one down and inhibit the very freedom sought by living in the country were probably present for both, it's a matter of degrees, larger though Sarton's may have been. In the last book we read by her she obliquely mentions her poetry not being as well received as her journals. In fact, it seemed to me this was either a complaint or the beginning of a painful recognition that she may have miscalled her forte. While her poetry is fine i have yet to read one which sings to me the way her journals have. Even her novels have a quality i appreciate more than her rather traditional poetry.
My impressions of her teaching gigs are the same, they seem irregular. I wonder if when she goes on tours such as the one she mentioned in the last book, which covered Texas & Louisiana, who pays her bills, particularly airfare. These didn't seem like the sort of book tours we are now familiar with, as she didn't even mention publicity for any one book. Maybe honorariums were larger back then?
Still, given the way they seemed to disrupt her peace and mental well being, the pay must have been worth it. I hope so! It's rather amusing that she tells us so much about her inner thoughts but we still have so many questions about her rural life.
deborah
Deborah: Still, given the way they seemed to disrupt her peace and mental well being, the pay must have been worth it. I hope so! It's rather amusing that she tells us so much about her inner thoughts but we still have so many questions about her rural life. -----------------
Yes, I would have liked a bit more about her rural life.
A great book on rural life that I read was:
The Good Life: Helen and Scott Nearing's Sixty Years of Self-Sufficient Living~~Helen NearingProduct Description
This one volume edition of Living the Good Life and Continuing the Good Life brings these classics on rural homesteading together. This couple abandoned the city for a rural life with minimal cash and the knowledge of self reliance and good health.
From the Publisher
"Helen and Scott Nearing are the great-grandparents of the back-to-the-land movement, having abandoned the city in 1932 for a rural life based on self-reliance, good health, and a minimum of cash...Fascinating, timely, and wholly useful, a mix of the Nearings' challenging philosophy and expert counsel on practical skills."-
---------------------------------
It's sort of become a cult book for the Back to Nature or Simplicity movement. If I recall correctly, they lived in Maine which should appeal to you. :)
I love Sarton's comment that everyone winds up in Maine. I had a good friend who wound up there. I went to visit him last year around this time.
There were two wonderful books about Maine which hooked me, both by Louise Dickenson Rich.We Took to the Woods was the first & is best known. It tells her story of life with her husband and their handy man as they settle by a river. The next in order was Happy The Land, which i own. I always meant to read more but didn't. It turns out there is a museum at her old place with items she owned & used. Hope i make it there one day. http://www.friendsofforestlodge.org/m... I like visiting museum/homes of authors. My favorite thus far is Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings in Florida. She wroteThe Yearling, as well as a book about her life in Florida, Cross Creek.
ANYway, thanks for the title, Alias.
DecemberDec. 3
"... and then I think of my solitude and realize again that I am truly married to it and without it would be even more nerve-racked and impossible than I am. "
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I like this quote. I agree with her I, too, need to recharge myself with alone time.
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Dec 4th
"I tremble a little, for if I don't write a book a year it just wouldn't be possible to live here."
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It must be such a pressure filled life to have to produce art to support oneself.
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Dec.5
"UN allowed Arafat a holster showing under his shirt..."
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Wow! it's wild to think they allowed this !
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Dec 5
"It is possible, I suppose, that we are returning to a Dark Age. What is frightening that violence is not only represented by nations, but everywhere walks amongst us freely."
It's interesting that all through history we all think we are in a "Dark Age" moment. So many of Sarton's thoughts could have been written by someone today.
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Christmas Day she writes of Judy's worsening dementia and helplessness yet on Dec.31 she writes that "Judy left a few day ago."
I would have like some explanation of where she went and who took care of her. Sarton sometimes writes as if we know the circumstances and people she writes of.
JanuaryI liked these quotes from the January section.
19th -- It is a mistake to believe that God is primarily concerned with religion. --- Archbishop of Canterbury
19th--"... for goodness, it seems to me, is always tolerant of the beliefs or non-beliefs of others."
Jan 30th
"I am not so interested in being a dazzling model as in being comfortable inside myself."
February ----I liked the note to Sarton. I think it sums up her books well.
Feb 8--"Thank you for making old age and old people real and a continuation of life."
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The next line I could have written by me about BNC. I don't know too many people I can share book talk with. You all really enrich my reading life. :)
feb 8--"This is a day when I wish there were someone with whom I could talk over and share all that has poured in"
Feb 17 "In my experience people who assert their religion are so very rarely religious in their actions."
-------
So true.
feb 8--"This is a day when I wish there were someone with whom I could talk over and share all that has poured in"While I don't feel lonely this is certainly an issue. Luckily and old friend and I can call each other and allow for this conversation. She is also alone. Three cheers for unlimited long distance.
Feb 24"Very few young people observe anything ex-particulars. Very few young people observe anything except themselves very closely. Then the context- by that I mean all that one brings to an experience of reading and thinking and feeling- is apt to be thin for the young. And, to get to the nub, I guess what I am suggesting is that rarely is there enough of a self there."
I agree. However, many adults fit into this category, too. Maybe more so today then in Sarton's time. We seem to be a nation of multi-taskers. And all our gadgets (cellphone, I-pads, E-books, cable TV and with a million channels to serf, and computers) seem to make us constantly "on". No down time.
June 2"I think it was a flying squirrel, but I am not sure. I got up, too the fireplace broom and gently prodded it, hoping to direct ti toward the door. Instead, it flew under my bed, climbed up into the revolving bookcase beside the bed and lay there on top of the books in a tiny cranny of space."
Flying squirrel !!! Seriously, I would have had a stroke.
June 9thI wasn't familiar with a term that Sarton used.
"sixes and sevens"
I checked Wiki--
To be "at sixes and sevens" is an English phrase and idiom, common in the United Kingdom. It is used to describe a state of confusion or disarray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sixes...
June 12thI don't know what edition you all are reading by on this date mine has a lovely black & white photo of Sarton relaxing in the yard. The back of the house is seen with many windows opening out into the garden.
What a lovely peaceful place to read !
July 27"As far as I know, the Ford Admin. has no plan to salvage the inner cities, and of course the trouble is worst there."
This reminded me of the famous Daily News front page headline.
Ford to City
Drop Dead
August 3"Growing old is, of all things we experience, that which takes the most courage, and at a time when we have the least resources, especially with which to meet frustrations."
So true. I pray that we don't start marching backwards as many in politics would have us do leaving future seniors without a safety net.
August 16.I didn't understand what her beef was with Nixon. She called his trip a "false blaze of glory".
Alias Reader wrote: "June 9thI wasn't familiar with a term that Sarton used.
"sixes and sevens"
The only time I've encountered the expression "at sixes and sevens" is in the song "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" from "Evita." I could sing a few bars for you if you'd like.
Alias, you are much further along than i am, but i don't see anything upon which i cannot comment. ;-) I like the quotes you shared, particularly the ones about religions. In deed, all your quotes are good ones. I liked the closing word in her preface, "For growing into solitude is one way of growing to the end."
Re. her friend Judy. I agree with you, it's one of the frustrating things about Sarton's work. She writes as though we are familiar with the circumstances, such as where Judy lives. With family? Institution? Friends? It's great that she brings Judy to her home periodically, despite the fact it must have been sad to do so.
About the Nixon beef. I don't know about her, but i'll never forgive him for his '68 statements (pre-election) saying he had a "secret plan" to get us out of Vietnam. Really? Then why did my husband end up there 2 years later?!
However, i suspect she meant, given the frame of reference about Snow, was that Nixon came to prominence as the anti-Communist, along side McCarthy. This was one note which rang false with many people. I figured people could change when they saw a bigger picture, as one must have in the Presidency.
At the time i might have called it a "false blaze of glory" because Watergate was unfolding and it really appeared to be a Major Attempt to distract attention from that. I'm not sure it really was, as apparently it had been in the works a long time, but the perception by people i knew was that he hoped the glory of China would overwhelm the issues with the break-in.
As we have watched many British sitcoms over the years, i was familiar with the 6s & 7s. I don't think i've ever used it but it's cute. I'm also charmed by the expression "I'm over the moon", which i associate with the British as well, although i hear it more & more here nowadays.
My edition has that photo of Sarton & those windows in the same "chapter". Beautiful, although i wouldn't want to have to clean those windows. (How old am i that THIS is what i think of first?!)
ANYway, it may be yet another 48 hours before i can pick up the book again. Our houseguest decided to stay another day, then go into Dallas with us. I enjoy reading the comments of others & Really Do Wish we could hear Connie singing! ;-)
deb
Connie wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "June 9thI wasn't familiar with a term that Sarton used.
"sixes and sevens"
The only time I've encountered the expression "at sixes and sevens" is in the song "Don't Cry for ..."
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Yes, you could do a Youtube video and become a sensation. :)
Madrano wrote:However, i suspect she meant, given the frame of reference about Snow, was that Nixon came to prominence as the anti-Communist, along side McCarthy. This was one note which rang false with many people. I figured people could change when they saw a bigger picture, as one must have in the Presidency.
at the time i might have called it a "false blaze of glory" because Watergate was unfolding and it really appeared to be a Major Attempt to distract attention from that.
------------------
Ok, I see. I wasn't aware it was at the same time as Watergate was in the news.
I am not an expert on this. But isn't Nixon going to China now looked upon as a positive of his presidency?
All my questions make me realize I really need to read
Nixonland: America's Second Civil War and the Divisive Legacy of Richard Nixon, 1965-1972.~Rick PerlsteinI own the book and it's on my DL. I've also heard positive reviews on the book.
The issue with Nixon going to China was that if a Democrat had done it than they would have been called soft on Communism. But because he had the anti-communist credentials it is usually stated that only Nixon could have pulled it off.Looking at it from a positive point of view is hindsight. Sarton is writing at the same time that it is taking place.
I am up to page 195 and I am just amazed when complete strangers just walk up to her door and expect to be welcomed in. I can certainly see how this could rattle her. Personally, I wouldn't let complete stranger into my home.
Page 193
I liked this quote.
"There are as many ways of growing old as of being young, and one forgets that sometimes."
Bobbie57 wrote: The issue with Nixon going to China was that if a Democrat had done it than they would have been called soft on Communism. But because he had the anti-communist credentials it is usually stated that only Nixon could have pulled it off.Looking at it from a positive point of view is hindsight. Sarton is writing at the same time that it is taking place.
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Yes, Sarton is writing from her time period. That is why I brought up that I think the view of Nixon's trip to China has changed. But was looking for confirmation on that.
Thanks for explaining the politics surrounding that trip. I wasn't aware of that. That is why I love discussing books with you. I think I learn more here than I ever did in college ! :)
Page 198"One of the good elements in old age is that we no longer have to prove anything, to ourselves or ato anyone else. We are what we are."
To this I say, Amen !
Page 242
"My 64th birthday..."
Is it me, or does Sarton seem to act much older? I would say at least a decade older.
Page 255
"And with so many many of my friends not in their eighties..."
Perhaps this is why I perceive her as older. Her friends are two decades older then she is.
I've finished the book and am startled to realize that this is not the book where she has to live on the first floor and have an aide. I was positive this was the book I first learned of Sarton. Now I have no idea whose journal I read. I know I got the book from the library. But, alas, the title is forever gone from my memory as I read it decades ago. :(
First, i'll begin with the last. Isn't that frustrating? Sometimes i'll do similar but it takes days before i figure out which book.In the section of the book i read last night she mentioned that most of the 80 year old friends were those she knew in her youth and they seem to have been people she either knew through her parents or early in her life when many took her under their wings. I suppose it is a sort of testament to her letter writing, which she both likes and dislikes, that she kept in contact with so many.
I know what you mean about Sarton & how she acts older. I think one thing to remember is that today we don't "fold up shop" as quickly as aging people used to do. Even in the '70s when so many aspects of society were being rethunk (i know!), the aged were not given much thought. In fact, i think much could be written & said about Sarton's contribution in this area.
Added to that, her sedentary interests help make her seem older, too. Gardening often becomes a hobby of last resort (or at least it used to), when people's lives slowed down & they had time to do the tending. Writing, reading, letters all contribute to the idea she seemed older. Or, rather, it seems that way to me. I'm often taken aback when i realize she is about my age, so much older does she seem.
Her comments about aging primarily please me. However, upon inspection i suspect some are dated, as well. For instance, on January 7 she expresses the idea, "But by the time one is sixty there is a deeper anxiety that has to be dealt with, and that is the fear of death...or rather, I should say, the fear of dying in some inappropriate or gruesome way..." I haven't done this any more than i did in my youth. And none of my friends have done so.
However, this may be part of living alone & being 60, but i don't think this is standard today. At age 60 my friends are all looking forward to all they plan to do in retirement. Not one has mentioned their own death to me, even when we are discussing death of others.
deborah
There are a couple of topics i wondered if anyone here wanted to explore. The first is the idea of "saints" (January 19, 1975). Sarton doesn't define her terms but seems to have any number of candidates. In my life i've met only one person i consider a "saint", meaning just an outstanding person both one-on-one but also for the wider community of humans. If by saint "good person" is meant, then it's sad she has so few! Another topic would be her idea of loneliness. On January 28, '75 she wrote that for her loneliness is associated with love relationships. "We are lonely when there is not perfect communion. In solitude one can achieve a good relationship with oneself. It struck me forcibly that I could never speak of 'bone loneliness' now, though I have certainly experienced it when I was in love."
Oddly, i've never considered loneliness in a couple. What am i missing? It calls to mind the song "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" by Hank Williams. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_So...
I could see loneliness at the end of a relationship but she seemed to indicate that the loneliness she writes about is in the midst of love. Am i misreading her? What do you think about this idea?
deborah, who could also discuss Sarton's idea that a young person cannot write a journal! (Feb. 14)
Madrano wrote: "However, this may be part of living alone & being 60, but i don't think this is standard today. At age 60 my friends are all looking forward to all they plan to do in retirement. Not one has mentioned their own death to me, even when we are discussing death of others. ----------------
I agree. 60 is the new 40 as they say. I hope so anyway. :)
Sarton is also a very introspective person. So that may lead her to analyze and ponder things more closely. Then there is her depression or whatever other issues she has. She also seems to get flustered at minor things. For example, when she has a cold and minor high temperature she needs to ask her neighbors to walk her dog and get the newspaper for her. All these things made her seem older to me.
Oh, I just remembered another thing she wrote about that I wanted to comment on.
July 13th.
page 279
Her reaction to this general comment about literature seems totally bizarre and over the top. She seems to take it so personally. She over-reacts in the extreme. She says she "shouted" "went home" and was "crying so hard I could hardly see."
Wow ! Really ? I think she was definitely bi-polar.
Madrano wrote: "There are a couple of topics i wondered if anyone here wanted to explore. The first is the idea of "saints" (January 19, 1975). Sarton doesn't define her terms but seems to have any number of candi..."----------------
Yes, her criteria seem pretty tame to me. A person who does their own shopping, cooking and cleaning at 80. I know people, who live alone, who do this at that age.
Perhaps city living, as opposed to the rural life Sarton choose, is easier when one ages. Simply getting around to stores and doctors and such in NYC is very easy. We have mass transit as well as Access a Ride http://www.mta.info/nyct/paratran/gui...
which is a car or small bus that comes right to your door for around $2. Most drug stores and supermarkets will also deliver to your door. This is one of the points that Susan Jacoby makes in her latest book,
Never Say Die: The Myth and Marketing of The New Old Age
Madrano wrote: I could see loneliness at the end of a relationship but she seemed to indicate that the loneliness she writes about is in the midst of love. Am i misreading her? What do you think about this idea?---------------------
Jan. 28th page 58
"loneliness for me is associated with love relationships. We are lonely when there is not perfect communion."
I think that second sentence is the key.
That she feels the need for "perfect communion" seems a bit unrealistic to me.
Maybe it is that desire to find one's soul mate and when one does not she is left wanting. The lack of a total connection to another person 100% of the time.
It seems very all or nothing to me. I don't know if one really ever finds a person that they know 100% of the time and that person knows them 100% of the time.
I agree. Her statement seems odd.
She says "bone lonely" describes her mom. Her mom had a mental breakdown if I recall. So there are other issues at play.
Madrano wrote: "deborah, who could also discuss Sarton's idea that a young person cannot write a journal! (Feb. 14)-------------------
I think the date is Feb 24
As I wrote in post #19
Feb 24
"Very few young people observe anything ex-particulars. Very few young people observe anything except themselves very closely. Then the context- by that I mean all that one brings to an experience of reading and thinking and feeling- is apt to be thin for the young. And, to get to the nub, I guess what I am suggesting is that rarely is there enough of a self there."
I agree. However, many adults fit into this category, too. Maybe more so today then in Sarton's time. We seem to be a nation of multi-taskers. And all our gadgets (cellphone, I-pads, E-books, cable TV and with a million channels to serf, and computers) seem to make us constantly "on". No down time.
------
I'll add a bit more onto this post now that you bring the topic up.
I think there have been a number of books, memoirs and journals by young people that had quite a bit to say that people could learn from.
Off the top of my head
I Am Nujood, Age 10 and Divorced
comes to mind.
Go Ask Alice
is a book that was required reading in school.
Alias Reader wrote: "Madrano wrote: "There are a couple of topics i wondered if anyone here wanted to explore. The first is the idea of "saints" (January 19, 1975). Sarton doesn't define her terms but seems to have any..."Alias Reader wrote: "Madrano wrote: "There are a couple of topics i wondered if anyone here wanted to explore. The first is the idea of "saints" (January 19, 1975). Sarton doesn't define her terms but seems to have any..."
If I may interrupt. I haven't read this book but anybody who can do their own shopping, cooking and cleaning at 80 is not a saint, they're just very lucky to have the health and strength. I know a lady in her nineties who does all of these things with a little help from her family.
Lynda wrote: "If I may interrupt. I haven't read this book but anybody who can do their own shopping, cooking and cleaning at 80 is not a saint, they're just very lucky to have the health and strength. I know a lady in her nineties who does all of these things with a little help from her family. ..."Exactly, Lynda! I truly appreciate Sarton but some of her statements and ideas seem curious, to say the least. Upthread & in an earlier discussion of Journal of a Solitude we wondered if she wasn't undiagnosed with bipolar disorder or something similar. I'm thinking this more as we read her.
deb
Alias Reader wrote: "As I wrote in post #19..."Sorry, i read it & forgot it by the time i read & posted about her observation. Like you, i disagree and am grateful for those young people who do not adhere to her advice. I hope she didn't state the same to the woman she was mentoring, who certainly didn't need to hear that.
What i tend to believe is that a journal by a young person would have different reflections on things an older person might no longer consider significant. Also, they might have a different spin at their age. But part of the instructive nature in reading those efforts would be to compare & contrast our own thoughts on the topic, just as we do with Sarton's words.
This seems either awfully short-sighted of Sarton or reflects a sort of bias toward the wisdom of older people vs. thoughts by younger ones. It's unexpected since she seems open to mentoring. Iirc, the young mother in question was one who Sarton taught a semester one university and with whom she kept up the correspondence. Was she offering to mentor with an idea toward limiting their creative expression? I doubt it. In fact, now that i have written that, i suspect she never directly told the young woman not to journal. Instead, the poor dear had to read it in this book! Yikes! Which is better?
deb
Alias Reader wrote: "Jan. 28th page 58"loneliness for me is associated with love relationships. We are lonely when there is not perfect communion."
I think that second sentence is the key.
That she feels the need for "perfect communion" seems a bit unrealistic to me.
Maybe it is that desire to find one's soul mate and when one does not she is left wanting. The lack of a total connection to another person 100% of the time. ..."
Yes, i think you are right, which is sadder still. For me it also increases our thoughts on her bipolar status. This expectation of perfection. It appears that without it, she feels lonely. No wonder she was in such misery those last Nelson years!
deb
Madrano wrote: . For me it also increases our thoughts on her bipolar status. This expectation of perfection. --------------
I'm not very familiar with Bi-polar disease. Is perfection seeking a part of it? Since we usually can't reach perfection, how frustrating this must seem.
Gosh the mood swings and perfection. Life must seem quite daunting to the unfortunate people who suffer from this.
"Madrano wrote: . For me it also increases our thoughts on her bipolar status. This expectation of perfection. --------------
I was flipping through my quote jnl, and came across one that I think may fit Sarton.
It is our very search for perfection outside ourselves that causes our suffering.
~~ Buddha
Good quote from Buddha. I don't know that seeking perfection itself is part of the disorder as much as constantly looking for it, particularly in others. It probably sounds like i'm saying something contradictory but what i mean is that i don't think the seeking of perfection, trying to be perfect, is part of it. However, being critical of imperfection to the point of mania is. As a result, quite often the depression ensues. It is a miserable way to live and i do not know how people with severe cases keep friends, except that in their manic state they are usually quite charming and energetic, which is often appealing. Sarton, if she had it, was not medicated for it, which is significant as suicide isn't uncommon if one isn't on meds.
deb
Regarding the 'sixes and sevens' phrase, is dressed 'up to the nines' an American idiom? I always liked the way Tim Rice paired these phrases in 'Argentina'. Numbers connection, see!
Lynda wrote: "Regarding the 'sixes and sevens' phrase, is dressed 'up to the nines' an American idiom? I always liked the way Tim Rice paired these phrases in 'Argentina'. Numbers connection, see!"-----------------
I don't hear the phrase, Dressed to the nines, much anymore.
Here is a link to a on-line phrase dictionary.
Dressed to the nines
Meaning
Dressed flamboyantly or smartly.
Origin
Nine is the most troublesome number in etymology. There are several phrases of uncertain parentage that include the word. Examples are, cloud nine, nine days' wonder and the infamous whole nine yards. We can add 'dressed to the nines' to that list.
The most frequently heard attempts to explain the phrase's derivation involve associating the number nine with clothing in some way. One theory has it that tailors used nine yards of material to make a suit (or, according to some authors, a shirt). The more material you had the more kudos you accrued, although nine yards seems generous even for a fop. Another commonly repeated explanation comes from the exquisitely smart uniforms of the 99th (Lanarkshire) Regiment of Foot, which was raised in 1824. The problem with these explanations is that they come with no evidence to support them, apart from a reference to the number nine (or 99, which seems to be stretching the cloth rather thinly). The regiment was in business in the early 19th century, which is at least the right sort of date for a phrase that became widely used in the middle of that century.
The first example of the use of the phrase that I can find in print is in Samuel Fallows' The Progressive Dictionary of the English Language, 1835. In his entry for the phrase 'to the nines' Fallows gives the example 'dressed up to the nines' and suggests that it "may perhaps" be derived from 'to thine eynes' - to the eyes. Not bad as a hypothesis, but without any evidence (and I can find none) 'may perhaps' is as far as we can go with that.
What counts against the above explanations, and indeed against any of the supposed explanations that attempt to link the number nine to some property of clothing, is the prior use of the shorter phrase 'to the nine' or 'to the nines', which was used to indicate perfection, the highest standards. That was in use in the 18th century, well before 'dressed to the nines' was first used, as in this example from William Hamilton's Epistle to Ramsay, 1719:
The bonny Lines therein thou sent me,
How to the nines they did content me.
It is worth noting that the number nine has long been used as a superlative. The Nine Worthies were characters drawn from the Pagan and Jewish history and from the Bible. This distinguished group consisted of Hector, Alexander, Julius Caesar, Joshua, David, Judas Maccabaeus, King Arthur, Charlemagne, and Godfrey of Bouillon. These were well-known to mediaeval scholars as the personification of all that was noble and heroic. Also, classical mythology has given us the Nine Muses of Arts and Learning - Clio, Thalia, Erato, Euterpe, Polyhymnia, Calliope, Terpsichore, Urania and Melpomene.
The Poetick Miscellenies of Mr John Rawlett, 1687, provides the earliest reference to 'to the Nine' that I can find:
The learned tribe whose works the World do bless,
Finish those works in some recess;
Both the Philosopher and Divine,
And Poets most who still make their address
In private to the Nine.
It seems clear that 'the Nine' that Rawlett was referring to were the Nine Muses. It is just as clear that 'dressed to the nines' is merely an extension of 'to the nine/s' and that we could equally well 'dance to the nines' or 'etymologise to the nines'. The search for the link between 'nines' and dress sense has unearthed no convincing candidates. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I'll stick my neck out here and say, with this phrase and with the other 'nines' phrases, 'nine' doesn't refer to anything specific - it just means 'a lot'.
There are many frustrating things about reading Sarton. One big one has been mentioned upthread. We don't know enough about the people named to identify them as neighbors or renown workers. One Big Example is a woman Sarton called Charlotte Zolotov (October 16). She doesn't tell us who the woman is, only a quote spoken to Sarton, "A lot of poetry of living, especially alone, takes place in the kitchen." Good quote and Sarton does a nice job of incorporating the meaning into the passage.
I thought i recognized the name as the woman who wrote William's Doll, a favorite book i read to both our children. However, that author's name is Charlotte Zolotow. As you can see, the last letter is different. So, rather than just look it up, i had to do even MORE research (poor deb!) to learn that Zolotow was one of Sarton's editors. http://www.charlottezolotow.com/charl... Paragraph 5.
I realize the "w" is probably pronounced "v" but am rather dismayed that no one opted to correct the name or at least offer the alternative. If we can't trust the text, how will we ever track down her references? Someday, when these are reissued (one hopes they'll be reissued in the future), i'm sure they'll be nicely footnoted. Until then, at least we have the internet!
Elsewhere, on January 21 (page 191 in my book), Sarton notes, "My other preoccupation is and has been sheer constant pain at the violence and hatred that seems to be the chief motor power, the think that makes people act in the world today." I mentioned on another thread that i identified with this comment, in regards to politics. I find an intolerance on my part to even listen/read about them, after a lifetime of caring and being a bit active in the arena. I may be misreading Sarton but this was my thought as i read those words.
I liked the thought Sarton expressed on January 22 about her friend Marjorie Bitker, then 75, who played tennis daily. "There are as many ways of growing old as of being young, and one forgets that sometimes." I was glad to see those words, as so many of her reflections on aging have been balanced against the dramatic decline she saw in her decades-older friends, tempered with her own illness.
deborah
Madrano wrote:Someday, when these are reissued (one hopes they'll be reissued in the future), i'm sure they'll be nicely footnoted.--------------
Yes, at least endnotes provided by a 3rd party.
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Deb wrote: "My other preoccupation is and has been sheer constant pain at the violence and hatred that seems to be the chief motor power, the think that makes people act in the world today.
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Sadly, this made me think not much has change in the world.
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Deb, since you looked up various people mentioned in the book, I wondered if you, or anyone else, was motivated to go to Amazon to see if the books she mentions are still in print.
Sometimes Amazon does the work for you and has "books mentioned in this book" But they don't for this one. :(
Also if I was reading Sarton correctly, she was in the process of making a book of biographies of various people. One of the people, I took to be her mother. Do know if this book was published and the title ?
Book Nook Cafe
Books mentioned in this topic
Nothing to Do But Stay (other topics)Gulliver's Travels (other topics)
The Age of American Unreason (other topics)
Never Say Die: The Myth and Marketing of the New Old Age (other topics)
A Reckoning (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
May Sarton (other topics)Carrie Young (other topics)
Jonathan Swift (other topics)
Susan Jacoby (other topics)
Anne Morrow Lindbergh (other topics)
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We have tentatively scheduled to begin reading and discussing on June 27, 2011.
All are welcome to join !
This is the first journal Sarton wrote after she moved in 1973 from New Hampshire to the seacoast of Maine. Here she found the peace and aloneness she sought—and partly feared. The journal records the renewing of her life and work in this place.
About the Author
May Sarton (1912-1995) was an acclaimed poet, novelist, and memoirist.
Paperback: 288 pages
Publisher: W. W. Norton & Company (January 17, 1996)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0393313905
Copyright: 1977