June Random Read: Dune, by Frank Herbert

[Aloha]

My favorite SciFi book, but I can see it being replaced as I read more SciFi. There are some great ones out there!

[Kevin]

I think Dune a gateway book into the world of Science Fiction.

[[deleted user]]

I haven't read this book since High School. I really need to find my copy or get a new one and do the re-read.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Ala wrote: "I haven't read this book since High School. I really need to find my copy or get a new one and do the re-read."

It's always been one of my favorites. I've re-read it three or four times, and I don't frequently do re-reads.

Kevin wrote: "I think Dune a gateway book into the world of Science Fiction."

Is this a positive or a negative designation for you? I want to make sure I know what you mean before I respond.

[mark, personal space invader]

Kevin wrote: "I think Dune a gateway book into the world of Science Fiction."

it certainly was for me. when much younger, i had read Sword of Shannara and it was such an aggravating experience that i was repelled by fantasy for many years. but shortly after I read Sword of Shannara, I read Dune - so instead i enjoyed scifi during that dark, fantasy-free period of my life!

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

I think it is probably the richest (for lack of a better word) world-building experience...I read this in high school and have always been a big fan

[Kevin]

Most people read fantasy first and more so most people's first science fiction book may have been Dune. This maybe because of how much the book actually more like a fantasy novel than most other science fiction.

[Kevin]

Denae wrote: "Ala wrote: "I haven't read this book since High School. I really need to find my copy or get a new one and do the re-read."

It's always been one of my favorites. I've re-read it three or four time..."

To me it is something negative for me just because Dune is not really a real science fiction story at all, but like I said a fantasy. There are so much science fiction out there to chose from from the Golden Ages to now, and Dune has to be the one to be picked, the most obvious book in part more readers like fantasy as opposed to Science Fiction.

[Kevin]

The first four books in the series to me where great books with rich actions, world building, character building, but most book that have come out since, but two The Butlerian Jihad and Sandworms, were all pretty bad books, especially the ones written by his son, which to me are unneeded to began with.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Could you provide me with your statistical resource? I would like to peruse it before responding to any of your statements involving preference and chronology.

Additionally, in what ways is Dune fantasy rather than science fiction?

[Kevin]

I think that Dune made ways possible for authors to write longer science fiction books because it was the first science fiction book to over a certain length.

[mark, personal space invader]

i don't know if kevin will come up with sources, but his point makes perfect sense to me. most fantasy could be considered as being more emotionally-based in content (particularly when seeing how fantasy can resonate in the same was as folklore & mythology) while science fiction could often be called more intellectual in its goals (particularly in its focus on the extrapolation of scientific or sociological ideas). i see kids as usually more interested in emotional wish fulfillment than the exploration of more intellectual ideas. i'm not saying this is true for everyone of course, but that it seems to make sense in a very generalized way.

personally i consider Dune to be scifi simply because in my black & white perspective, anything set in the future is a form of science fiction. but i do think that a very strong case can be made for works like Dune (or Star Wars!) actually residing in the fantasy genre because of their basis in myth/world-building, hero quests, etc...as opposed to the science fiction of, say, asimov or leguin, which is all about taking intellectual theses to their logical conclusion (or other potential conclusions).

[Aloha]

Didn't we have a discussion about this in Fantasy Aficionados? We were discussing Star Trek vs. Star Wars. We considered Star Wars to fall under fantasy, whereas Star Trek falls under Sci-Fi, due to the fact of whether there would be a story if we take away the science elements.

[mark, personal space invader]

i don't think i was a part of that discussion, but i can understand the result (Star Wars: fantasy, Star Trek: scifi).

that said, i still would personally consider Star Wars, Star Trek, and Dune to be scifi simple because they are set in the future. but it is not a hard & fast point that i will passionately defend - it is simply a more convenient way for me to look at the genres. i.e. Different Realities = Fantasy, The Future = Science Fiction. it just makes things easier for my wee lil' brain!

[whimsicalmeerkat]

I suppose I share your black and white view point, but not your ideas of what shapes science fiction as opposed to fantasy. To me the primary distinction between the two is the worlds in which they are set and the devices they use. While it is definitely true that science fiction has had more crossover authors to/from the world of philosophers, I do not think that is a difference in genres so much as a product of the times in which science fiction really "came into itself." Dune addresses both mythological and intellectual/philosophical subjects, but the inclusion of the former hardly excludes it from the science fiction category or makes it somehow less.

The theme of the noble savage, the mistrust of technology in cultures that depend upon it, the idea of technology being used to better the lives of people; all of these are common themes throughout literature. These elements alone do not define genre. The presence of spacecraft, futuristic technology and sophistication, the ability to control weather, and many other things present in the book do put it firmly in the science fiction genre. As for it being a gateway, well, I suppose that's one way to describe classics.

[Aloha]

I also don't share Mark's viewpoint of what is Fantasy and what is SciFi, but it does make it simple! To me, it's not necessarily the device, but whether if you replace that device, the core of the story would still be there. For example, suppose the bed in Bedknob and Broomsticks was a space craft, it still wouldn't make it SciFi. Yes, I love that movie as a kid. That's what popped in my head. LOL

[mark, personal space invader]

very interesting points denae and aloha! and to me, they make a lot of sense.

but i hope i wasn't being confusing in my various rambles. although i gave my own personal rationale for how i define scifi and fantasy (and their difference from each other), my comments on the 'emotional resonance' of fantasy vs. the 'intellectual extrapolation of ideas' of scifi was not necessarily about defining either genre. i think those observations are true but only in a very, very generalized way. those comments re. emotional vs. intellectual were more about explaining why i think that kids initially respond first to fantasy, and then when they get older and more intellectually curious, perhaps more to scifi. and then perhaps when they get older still, and become more interested in the psychology of why we do things, perhaps more classically crafted 'mainstream fiction' could then become interesting to them. and then, perhaps even older still (say, college age) when they have become more familiar with the various writing techniques (and the reasons why those techniques have evolved), then an interest in 'literary fiction' could develop.

from l. frank baum to arthur c. clarke to margaret atwood to james joyce! not that i am saying any of those writers are better or more mature than the other. really, i'm just improvising here!

[Aloha]

I agree with you on the psychology of kids, Mark. What kid wants to feel like he's reading another textbook? Also, there is proven scientific research that the brain becomes less emotional and more logical as we get older. I read an article about it a while back. Was it involving the amygdala? If anybody can find an article on that, please post it. Since kids are more emotional, they're going to want action and drama, and inspiring idealism, more than technical jargon.

[Aloha]

That's why we have a higher chance of falling head over heels in love as a youth, rather than in middle age. Also, idealistic fervor happens more in the young.

[Kevin]

Well its just more of my point of view that I think Dune is more of a fantasy. I will have to think more it through to give you my reason behind it.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

So, taking a different direction. Going to tag this since it has potential ASoIaF spoilers. (view spoiler)[ When I was first reading A Game of Thrones the sense of growing dread leading up to Ned's death felt very similar to the knowledge that Leto will also die and how it builds during the beginnings ofDune. Does anyone else see a thematic similarity? (hide spoiler)]

What does everyone think of the move to Arrakkis in general?

[Aloha]

You may have something there, Kevin,that Dune is more in the Fantasy class. Dune is a funny one. The critical component is the "spice" melange, which powers the political plane, the economy and the ecology. The spice is critical for prescient qualities to beings such as the Bene Gesserit, and the spice is critical to the Spacing Guild's navigators for guiding their ships. They use the prescient awareness of the spice and foldspace technology to enable instantaneous travel throughout the universe. This is Herbert's make up technology using the make up Holtzman effect, which makes travel throughout the universe possible. This Holtzman effect is critical in the Dune world since it is also used in defensive shield. This, I think, combines the Fantasy aspect of the effect of the spice, and the SciFi aspect of the spice's prescient quality in order to be able to use the advanced technology that is usually beyond man's ability, since robotic minds are banned.

Yeah, Dune is an odd bugger, because I don't think there would be a story without the Holtzman effect, since the technology utilizing that law is critical in the outcome of the war. So, IMO, Dune squeaked by as more SciFi than Fantasy.

[Aloha]

Isn't the move to Arrakkis basically guarantee that they're stuck on the planet, since the effect of the spice is highly addictive and potent? I don't think they can leave that area without dying. I read that somewhere. Or am I mistaken?

[whimsicalmeerkat]

I think it is more a matter of spice being a necessity, something they would need to have available to them elsewhere. Little fuzzy though.

[Aloha]

Yeah, that's right. They would die without the spice, but if they can bring it with them wherever they are, they can still live. But they would die without it. I think I read that in a future book in the series, the unavailability of the spice became a critical issue.

[Kevin]

The third book in the series, Children of the Dune was the first science fiction or fantasy book to be on the New York Times Bestsellers List.

[[deleted user]]

Hah! Found my copy!

I've got another book to read before I can do BotM's though, but I'll be reading it soonish

[Sonja]

I'm starting this one today. I've never read it before but have heard many things about it, positive and negative, so I'm interested to see how I feel about it after reading.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Aloha wrote: "Yeah, that's right. They would die without the spice, but if they can bring it with them wherever they are, they can still live. But they would die without it. I think I read that in a future bo..."

It does, but iirc that was after what I would mark as the point the series wandered off into bizarro world.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

So, am I the only one who found myself thinking of this book while reading A Game of Thrones? I'm going to put the rest of this in a tag in case there are people who have not read ASoIaF. (view spoiler)[The way dread builds around Ned as GoT progresses reminded me of the way you can tell Leto is doomed from the beginning of the book. The relative positions within the books mean Leto is killed relatively quickly and Ned much later in his book, but to me there is the same aura of an honorable, perhaps too honorable, going to his doom because of the political schemes and vendettas of others. Does anyone else see this? (hide spoiler)]

[Rick]

Denae ... I agree with your Ned/Leto connection ... kind of harking back to HAMLET, really ... a "sins of the father" trope ... (maybe?)

Re: DUNE being fantasy or sf. I consider it clearly sf because it extrapolates certain elements in today's society (ecology, psychotropic drug use, religious fanaticism, etc.)to "logical" extremes. (Interesting that he foresaw "jihad" being an issue.)

Plus .. It was originally published in ANALOG magazine, and the editor at the time (John Campbell) would NEVER have allowed a "fantasy" story into his magazine. (That's a specious argument, I know ... but still ...)

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

I believe with all the technological things that go on that it is a science fiction novel. I've never thought it wasn't. It sjust character-based, which isn't really the norm, but makes it more appealable to the public.

[Rick]

The book definitely tries to make it all scientifically "possible" ... except for, like, the folding space stuff and all ... It would be "space opera" if it weren't for the character development ... The hunter-seeker scene early on in the book is riveting!

[whimsicalmeerkat]

I'm not sure I follow you on the space opera =/= character development thing. I don't think of Dune as space opera, but I also don't think of space opera as not having character development. Could you clarify what you mean?

[Kevin]

I think Dune is space opera before space opera was defined as a term. It has a lot in common with Star Wars.

[Rick]

I assume (and I may be way off the mark) that space opera ... at least as written in the "Golden Age" ... lacked three-dimensional characters ... DUNE certainly has three-dimensional characters ... But like traditional space opera, DUNE also hops all over the universe with a form of FTL drive ... and, like space opera, there's tons of actions ... I may be FoS here ...

[whimsicalmeerkat]

From what I can tell after doing some more research, space opera is a somewhat fluid term, but I see your point in terms of the more traditional definition. So far as subgenre classification goes, there is an argument to be made that Dune could be considered planetary romance. It's somewhat irrelevant though, how the book is classified. That we aren't discussing the book itself very much makes me sad.

The hunter-seeker scene is highly effective in making it clear both that Paul is in great danger and that he is far more than the average fifteen-year-old. I have to say though, the gom jabbar was the scene that first pulled me completely in, the first time I was reading it. The idea that they live in a world where they have to use such a terrible test to find out if someone is human... What do you all think about that? Are the Bene Gesserit right in their cautious ways? What do you think of the genetic manipulation they do?

[Margaret]

"Space Opera" is an old description first used of certain kinds of simplistic SF, such as the Lensmen series of the 30s and beyond. It came from "Horse Opera" used to describe shoot-'em-up westerns with good guys in white hats, bad guys in black. I think there is little modern SF that the term space opera accurately describes. Yet we still use the term space opera to define any number of different kinds of SF. The definition can be narrow or it can be broad. And it is usually so broad as to deny any real definition at all. In other words, it is what somebody says it is. Dune can be seen as space opera, as there are good guys and bad guys, adventure, excitement, yada yada. Then again, there is much more than that. So it is more than space opera. You can pay your money and take your choice of "What is Space Opera?"

Dune is definitely SF, though. Even the semi-mystical powers of Paul Atreides are explained as deriving from 'spice', and not just magic. Ditto the Bene Geserits' powers have a pseudo-scientific patina of telepathy and precognition over magic. In other words, it is not fantasy, regardless how feeble one might think this patina is. And most SF novels have to come to terms with FTL travel, whether by bending space, or through wormholes, or special drives. Even the most sophisticated SF, like Banks or Reynolds have to deal with this. Only if galactic travel is accomplished by wizards and magicians does it enter fantasy. Any scientific explanation is bound to fall flat in terms of current scientific knowledge. It is just one of those things that we must take for granted. We ignore the problem as theater audiences ignore the boundaries of the stage and procenium. If we can't, we probably don't read SF, and we probably shouldn't.

[Rick]

The gom jabbor scene is, indeed, very effective (I cringe just thinking about it) because it (like the hunter seeker scene--and Leto's death) let you know that the characters are playing for high stakes ... for keeps. This increases reader investment in the characters ... if you learn early on that ANYTHING--even death--can happen here, then the tension is real ... and much more pleasurable than worrying about not HOW, say, Superman will save what- or whomever, instead of IF he will accomplish his goal.

You know early on in DUNE that Paul has a very good chance of failing ... and even when he does win at the end, you have to wonder: At what price? Was it really--humanly worth it?

I would have to fall on the side of character making this book the success it is. Sure, the environment and technology and psychology and religion and everything else are massively imaginative, but it's the characters who pull us in and place this book way above an ordinary "space opera."

Just MHO ...

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

I agree with all the statements here. There is a character depth in Dune that just transcends anything else there was at the time. The details create the depth, both of the tension and the characters, something that is just lacking in the sequels by Herbert's son.

[Rick]

I thought even the later DUNE books by Herbert fizzled out with each one successively worse ... But how could anyone have sustained such a vision and such insight? Hell, for every ABBEY ROAD or SGT. PEPPERS, there was a LET IT BE or MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR ... A lot of what appeals to me in the original DUNE are the things ... the vast scope of things that Herbert only hints at in DUNE ... Later, I think (like anyone would) he stumbled and ultimately failed when he tried to illuminate those large, hidden things ... The "scope" of DUNE is an amazing accomplishment ... and if it's the only book Herbert is remembered for, that's one helluva legacy.

[Rick]

CLARIFICATION: I muffed that comment about SUPERMAN .. The idea is, as readers or viewers, we never worry that Superman WON'T SUCCEED ... We're only interested in HOW he succeed, not IF he will succeed ... We know he will ...

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Maggie wrote: "I agree with all the statements here. There is a character depth in Dune that just transcends anything else there was at the time. The details create the depth, both of the tension and the charact..."

I personally refuse to even consider the crap his son has churned out as being at all related to the original books. Yes, Herbert's went downhill, but insane as Chapterhouse: Dune was, it's still leagues ahead of any of the Brian Herbert stuff.

[Rick]

I'm friends with Kevin Anderson, so I've read several of the books he's written with Brian Herbert ... I enjoy them, but I take them much more as space opera ... I realize even Frank Herbert couldn't write to the level of DUNE all the time ...

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

I am reading re the Sietch right now, and am blown away by the world building that went on here...amazing

I am also thinking about how current this book can still read. Such a classic

[Rick]

I don't see how he did it ... Seriously ... The imaginative output is not humanly possible ... esp when you consider that his other books (DUNE books and non-DUNE books) weren't nearly as great. (A few I can think of were downright awful!) I wish every writer was so blessed to have one such stunning achievement ... (if only) ...

[Kevin]

If only, if only, the woodpecker sighs.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

The White Plague was definitely one of the awful ones.

[J.P.]

Rick wrote: "I don't see how he did it ... Seriously ... The imaginative output is not humanly possible ... esp when you consider that his other books (DUNE books and non-DUNE books) weren't nearly as great. (A..."
Exactly what I would say Rick. Dune is so intricate with the subplots within subplots it's hard to think of a better science fiction book in terms of structure. Dune was doubtless the zenith of his writing career. When awful and Frank Herbert are mentioned in the same sentence, usually Whipping Star is too but I actually liked it for whatever reason.

[Phil]

Great thoughts.

On the gateway comments:

Dune was an early SF read for me, so it was one of my gateway books. As a middle school teacher, I can tell you that it is no longer a gateway book. That honor goes to The Hunger Games, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Fahrenheit 451, and Ender's Game. It is certainly true, however, that kids take to fantasy before SF.

On the genre debate:

The genre debate is interesting. I've always regarded Dune as the LotR of Sci Fi- the indisputable classic against which every other book can be measured. To hear it described as a fantasy novel challenges my assumptions.

I could intellectualize things like setting, technology, and extrapolation, but really, to me, the difference is aesthetic. Dragons and wizards are fantasy; space ships and robots are sci fi. Alice in Wonderland is fantasy; A Princess of Mars is sci fi. The aesthetics create an atmosphere that affects me differently. Fantasy usually causes me to explore purely imaginative ideas, whereas SF usually causes me to wonder about what might someday be. Both can reflect on the nature of humanity.