SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Dune
Group Reads Discussions 2008
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Dune - Full Discussion *Spoilers*
This is a very rich book. It described technology just enough to have an Idea that it was so advanced it would be indistingushable from magic to us.I loved the concept of placing limits on technology an see how far the human mind can advance.
There was a time that it was a common skill to add up a list of numbers in your head. When I go to a restraunt I stun people that I can tell them what Our bill will be before it comes. Simple addition.
The Mentat trained to be a human computer.
The extreme the religions can forge.
There are so many possible subtopics.
Effect of religon on culture.
Use of religion to mold behavior
Use of genetics selective breading to creat subspecies of man
-guild
-the telaxue (SP Sorry)
Roles of government
-rights and obligations of the rulers and the ruled.
ecology
better living through drugs
the effects of a single source of a critical resource.
and so much more
I liked Gurney Halleck the best (could this be subliminal conditioning through identification w/ Paul?). I liked the gruff and poetic sides of him. I didn't like the appendixes at the end but since they were at the end I didn't feel compelled to read them. I felt a little led on by the book. Paul kept hinting at a jihad but it didn't happen and the very end of the book, it had some triumphant feel but also it felt a bit unresolved. I feel a little sorry about feeling that way, like why do I have this bloodthirst for some reason but I don't really know. it felt like a big showdown was going to happen but it was more like a rejoining of characters (like the end of Empire Strikes Back) but then there is some suspension of the animation somehow.
I thought that the book was ok, but it didn't intrigue me so much to think that it was amazing. I'm sure that I'm a richer person for reading it, but I'm definitely not racing out to get the second (or any others) in the series.
I loved the panoramic feel to it and the world building. The descriptions were full of realistic touches to balance out the fantastic. The characters were deeply developed and the civilizations and cultures were explored. So many writers don't take the time to do this.The intrigue was interesting and the subplots were fun, but the sense of melodrama was a bit much. I understand that Paul was becoming deity and savior, and the author had to stress this, but it was annoying at times.
What was the meaning of calling Paul a human at the beginning? I kept expecting to find out more about this divide between humans and whatever everyone else was, but it never really went there.
That whole human thing just kind of dead-ended, didn't it? Maybe it was to differentiate people who were human vs. clones like Duncan Idaho became? I don't think that ever got explored in the first three books.
"What was the meaning of calling Paul a human at the beginning?"I admit that it is kinda dead ended, but I think the purpose is to cast the Bene Gesserit in something of a bad light while still leaving us some sympathy for them.
Because Paul 'beats' the test of the Gom Jabber, we don't judge the Bene Gesserit as harshly as we ought to. But Paul judges them right from the start when he says, "You take alot on yourself." Their are alot of problems with the Gom Jabber test, starting with the fact that it is rigged. By human, the Bene Gesserit are in fact saying, "People like me." The Reverend Mother admits this to some extent, when she scolds herself(!) for wanting Paul to fail. She just scolds herself for what is in essence, attempted murder! She commits a hate crime and potentially kills a boy for the simple fact that he's a boy. I mean, is the Bene Gesserit definition of what it means to be human a good one anyway? Would we accept that definition? Would we accept that some person has the authority to determine who is human, and who isn't and that they have the right to discard the 'non-humans'? Are the non-humans that they condemn really non-humans?
The Bene Gesserit are supposedly the religious order of society, but they are perfect cynics - they don't believe a wit of what they teach the people - and they have set themselves up not even as divine intermedaries but literally in the role of god. And Paul is ultimately their creation. All of his troubles are at the root the product of their manipulation: their desire to play god and make a perfect man through which they can attain the omnipotence that otherwise elludes them. For me, the important thing about the test of the gom jabber isn't whether it really separated him into the class of human beings, but that it is symbolic of the arrogant manipulation that the Bene Gesserit are engaged in.
I think it was Herbert's oblique way of hinting about Paul's godhood.
Definitely a very good and thought provoking post, Matt.
Actually I thought the comment about human being was obvious.A human being controls their own actions even to allowing the destruction of a limb or hand in this case. A human is capable of this. Most homospapiens are not"human" they all may have the potential but most are animals not truly human. Even with the knowledge of certain death will pull away from pain.
Human is the way to define a person from the mass of herd animals most people are.
I also thought that the distinction being made here by the Reverend Mother was between people who could put logic, reason, and control over instinct and feelings. A person who followed instinct and pulled his/her hand away even knowing that death would follow would be categorized as an "animal." A person who was able to control the fear and pain and instinct and leave the hand inside no matter what happened to it in order to not be killed would be categorized as "human."
spoiler quote:
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."
spoiler quote:
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."
Brooke said: What was the meaning of calling Paul a human at the beginning? Matt said: ... I think the purpose is to cast the Bene Gesserit in something of a bad light while still leaving us some sympathy for them.
An interesting thought ... I took a different tact.
Through out the series, Herbert hints at some greater danger to humanity as a whole, and Paul rejects the BG concept of what defines human directly. I viewed this part as a foreshadowing of what Paul would be required to become ... something more than human. He must become the external force (predator) which would actually force humanity to develop in such a way that they would survive this coming evil ...
(view spoiler)
I'm not sure what Herbert's feelings are on the subject of what it means to be human. "What does it mean to be human?", is a very complex question and one that I think is central to all of science fiction. But from the context of the story and simple logic, I think we can dismiss the Gom Jabber test as a good answer.Do we really think that the ability to endure pain is a good test of humanity? According to the Reverend Mother's explanation, the Gom Jabber tests for two things, the ability to override instinct and cunning. It cannot simply be the ability to endure pain, because obviously animals can endure pain. The Reverend Mother explains the test through an analogy with a fox caught in a trap. She says the animal thing to do is to cut ones leg off in order to escape the trap, and she contrasts this with what is supposedly the human responce - to wait in the trap for the oppurtunity to kill the hunter. But there is a problem with this, in that we cannot really know the mind state of the fox. Perhaps the fox knows that killing the hunter is beyond his ability, especially while caught in the trap(!!). We cannot really know whether the fox is acting out of cunning or not, and what we think about the fox's mindstate probably tells us more about ourselves than it does about the fox. Perhaps the fox is executing the best plan it has available under the circumstances. We equally cannot know the mind state of the person enduring the Gom Jabber. Perhaps it isn't finding cunning at all. Perhaps the Gom Jabber simply tests for the ability to endure pain. We don't know that a person of low cunning but high pain tolerance might pass the test better than a person of high cunning. Worse yet, when it comes to enduring pain, a inhuman machine with writable instincts beats a human every time.
From the context of the story, we know that the society of Dune has evolved in the wake of the 'Butlarian Jihad', a war to liberate mankind from the slavery of thinking machines. But in the wake that war, the surviving institutions of learning have according to their particular disciplines set out to make machines out of humans. The monkish aescetic Bene Gesserit cull humanity for the monkish (and machine-like) traits of enduring pain and dare I suggest blind obedience, and imagine that humanity is or should be made in their own image. The mentats seek to make humanity into living databases, spreadsheets and calculators. And Spacing Guild turns humans into inhuman machine components. But none of them seem to have any real grasp on what it means to be human.
What I really like about the story is what it centers our attention against this background. To begin with, Jessica - a good Bene Gesserit - is sent to Caladan to be the concubine of the Duke with instructions to betray her leige and husband, to undermine the very fabric of the social order. But the Duke doesn't treat her as a mere sexual object or mere breeding machine the way her Bene Gesserit superiors do. Instead, he is gentle to her. He is kind. He opens himself up to her and shares with her his deepest fears and dreams. He loves her. As a result, she finds that she cannot obey the Bene Gesserit and she cannot betray Leto and so she concieves for him an heir - a son - because she loves him. And in doing so, I think she proves herself far more human than any test of the Gom Jabber did.
And so it is time and time again as we examine the protangonists of the story. They are motivated by love. That is the real deadly pain that they are willing to face, not some high handed poison needle.
Do we really want to define humanity by its ability to endure pain and commit murder? I think we know well what comes next when we claim that the greater mass of humanity, other than ourselves of course, is animals - cattle cars and abattoirs.
i found that the book didn't hold my attention very well. It took me a while to get into it but i still didn't find myself rushing to finish it as quickly as possible. The book was ok but not my favorite. I am not sure if I would be rushing out to read the next 2 in the series.
I think 2 interesting themes in the novel are the planet Arakis itself and also the Spice.... What is Herbert saying about man's relationship with the environment? And Spice seems to permeate society all across the galaxy....
I just have to ask. Has anyone gotten a hold of a copy of Doon (National Lampoon's parody written by written by Ellis Weiner)? I haven't been able to yet. It looks like fun.
"I think 2 interesting themes in the novel are the planet Arakis itself and also the Spice.... What is Herbert saying about man's relationship with the environment?"That's a good question. The natural environment of Arakis is extremely hostile to Terran life. The natural environment of Terran life is extremely hostile to the native Arakeen life. Kynes and to a lesser extent Maud'Dib have a leadership position amongst the Fremen principally because they promise to terraform the planet to make it more hospitable to Terran life, but at the same time this puts at risk the native Arakeen life.
I've never read the later books, but I gather that this becomes one of the central conflicts of the story line.
What I get from the first book is that Planetology is essential to a technologically advanced species. What I get is that when you grow up, you become in charge of your own environment - whether you like it or not. Like it or not, a sentient species finds that its planets are small and cannot absorb his activities without change. Like it our not, a sentient species finds out that its not just one species among many, but in charge of the whole. As we are able to harness more and more energy, our ability to alter a planet (always present as a widespread form of megafauna) is increased to the point which we need to understand the chemistry of planets on a global scale. If you look up 'planetology' in a dictionary, you'll find that its considered a division of astronomy. But in Dune, planetology is a very broad understanding of what we are now calling climatology. It's a real and very present thing, not something you do by looking up at the heavens.
Alot of people would consider me a 'global warming skeptic', but I'm not at all a planetology skeptic. I believe we can and are changing the planet, and whether we are right about one particular way we are doing it or not is hardly the point. The point is that we have to take responsibility and not pretend that nothing is happening or that the best answer is retreating from or responcibility. Even if global warming was nothing but a scam, it has the silver lining of making study of planetology - meaning what happens here on Earth and not just what happens on Mars or Titan - into a serious field of endeavor. We need that understanding. We need to see that we've reached the point where the earth as a whole is not only a feasible a area of study, but a necessary and practical area of study and even a feasible engineering problem.
I thought the planetology was an interesting point, too. Officially, no one knew much about the planet, yet unofficially a lot of groups knew a lot of pieces, but few had put the puzzle together all the way. There were also a lot of other issues that he could have used to shape the novel.The civilization of Dune was a Class 2 civilization (yes?) & they are still ignorant of too many basic facts about the planet & especially about the Spice. It was a glaring enigma, but hardly a new one. Politically, ignorance worked best for the Powers-That-Be.
It does remind me in some ways of the current Global Warming issue & other ecological controversies. I wonder if Herbert had a similar issue(s) in mind when he wrote the book. About when he wrote "Dune", Rachel Carson was making lots of waves with 'Silent Spring' & there was a huge uproar about DDT then, I think - might have been later, though. I'm not sure if we were being warned about pollution causing an Ice Age yet. I think that was later, but I'm not sure. Some time back then, global cooling, not warming was the popular theory.
We were at the height of the Cold War, too. We lived knowing the entire earth could be wiped out at any time by 'Atomics'. I remember lots of drills at school, hiding under our desks or in the hallways. The 'Red Scare' wasn't too long past & as a native of the West Coast, I'd guess he lived the Japanese internment during WWII more personally than most.
Every time I read the book, I think I see different pieces of our own civilization, but they're probably colored a lot by my current perceptions. None of the issues are really new, though. He packaged them nicely, with some interesting twists. That's probably what makes the book so readable over so many years.
"The civilization of Dune was a Class 2 civilization (yes?)..."Class 1, actually. Class 2 civilizations can manipulate stars, destroy planets, and engage in planetary scale construction. The Empire in 'Star Wars' is a class 2 civilization (Death Star, for example), the builders of the Ring World in Nivens series of the same name, and the The Culture in Iain M. Banks sci fi novels (Orbitals, etc.).
I always had the impression that the Spacing Guild had everything about Arakis figured out, but ruthlessly suppressed the knowledge.
I've always thought that spice was misused by the humans in Dune; that it was meant to bring the humans in "sync" with the planet. It's almost as if the planet wanted mankind to take the spice so that they could become part of the environment and do more than just survive, but live richly.I don't know where I got this impression. I can't point to a single scene or a pattern of occurances, but the idea has always occured to me when reading this book.
Has anyone ever seen or felt this when reading Dune?
"I've always thought that spice was misused by the humans in Dune; that it was meant to bring the humans in "sync" with the planet."I'm not sure that the word 'meant' is useful here, as it implies a level of intentionality that isn't really found in the story. The story is quite on destiny in the usual sense. The destiny in the story appears more to be like that of the psychohistory of Hari Seldon in Asimov's 'Foundation' - civilizations have an inertia that is bigger than any one person.
What the spice does though is make the user in some sense one with the universe. This is in itself a thing that is neither good nor bad. Whether the universe prospers from the communion is dependent on the person. For the Guild Navigator, being at one with the universe means being in two different places at once with no moral component at all beyond that implied by the ability to travel vast distances. At it's best, spice allows you to be at union with other people, as we see in the spice ceremonies that the Fremen share. We see spice help fuel or flower the love between husband and wife, and between mother and child.
But as far as communion with the planet, Arrakis is largely a dead world populated solely by the inhuman and feelingless worms. There isn't anything to commune with. It's a great ball of hot dry sand and rock. It has no soul and very little life, nor do I recall Paul ever feeling anything about the planet itself. The planet is a thing, and it is treated as thing (for better or worse). Even the worms are creatures of pure instinct, indeed enslaved and enslavable by thier instincts: usefully so, and Paul never shows any sign that the worms should be respected except as forces of nature are respected.
The thing about the spice is that its inherently abusable. There is no way for humans to not misuse it. It's a poison. It's addictive. It's expensive. Once you start using it, you can't stop or you die a horrible painful death. There is no real way to not misuse it. Using it is misusing it. To use it is to live and die at the same moment, like a war that is won and lost in the same day.
Spice enslaves humanity to it. The whole society has become geared to the delivery of spice.
In the later books, the use of "Spice" is explained in much more detail.Apparently it inhances the senses, it enables you to make much more efficient use of brainpower in an age where thinking machines are banned.
Its greatest property is the ability to preserve life and letting the users have a much longer lifespans.
Consequently its the commodity everyone needs and wants.
Their whole economy and power structure is based on the harvesting, processing and transportation of this unusual and precious product unique on only one planet.
Is spice more analogous to oil or something like heroin? I'd thought it was oil, and maybe I'm just connecting our current oil dependence situation to it too much. But if there's no use for spice except misuse, maybe that's not the best comparison.
Brooke, spice is like both oil and heroin. It's absolutely necessary to civilization because the spacers need it to traverse the vast distances of space. Without spice, everyone would be pretty much stuck where they are. However, the spice has hallucinogenic properties as well and is addictive.Maybe it's a commentary on our addiction to petroleum?
I think I'm realizing that I don't really know what the spice was FOR. How did they use it to travel through space, was it used as a fuel?
IIRC, it allowed the pilots to navigate through space or hyperspace. It's been years since I read Dune, so I may be misremembering.
Oh, so the pilots still have to consume it? I was picturing something akin to filling up the ships' gas tanks with it, which is why I was confused between Matt's and Sandi's comments.
Yes, the pilots have to consume it. It's been a long time since I read "Dune", but I seem to recall that the space ships were propelled through the mental powers of the pilots. The pilots' brains were the fuel. I think this may be one area in which Dune becomes more fantasy than science fiction.
ETA: I think this was discussed in more depth in one of the later books, not necessarily in "Dune".
My take is that the spice heightens the navigator's prescient ability and thus guarantee a safe route from one planet to the next. The actual mechanism of travel was more your standard hyperspace jump sort of mechanism. It's been quite a few years since I last read Dune, but I don't remember Herbert every really discussing it in depth.
I don't remember him discussing it at all, but it's definitely a dense book and I'm sure I'd pick up things I didn't even notice the first time around if I reread it.
The topic is discussed in depth but only in the later books. In Dune it is described as the navigator folding space. For a moment the travelers are in both places. The navigater as a result of the spice exists in a state that they literally see all places as a single location and simply chose which place to be.In later books, the birth of the navigators guild is discussed. They actually use a fold space technology. without the navigator this will get you were you need to go with a (i thinK) 10% loss.
Use of the navigators allows a clear view of the destination that eleminates all chance of getting lost.
Its important to remember space travel was done with computers until the Butlerina Jihad, banned thinking machines. The discovery of Spice's ability to enhance brain activity has made it extremely important to the Spacing Guild and anyone else who needs to move commerce or troops through space.
If we tie the possible future ecological changes planned for Arakis and the essential need for spice in culture/society/etc.....
Isn't spice created from the decomposing of worms after they die? Am I remembering/understanding this correctly?
And the worms need the desert like environment to live?
What happens if Arakis is transformed from a desert planet into a more hospitable place for humans?
It doesn't make sense... "He who controls spice controls the universe."
Isn't spice created from the decomposing of worms after they die? Am I remembering/understanding this correctly?
And the worms need the desert like environment to live?
What happens if Arakis is transformed from a desert planet into a more hospitable place for humans?
It doesn't make sense... "He who controls spice controls the universe."
I thought spice was worm poop. But, I think that's in one of the later books.
In Dune, there is only one source of melange: the sands of the planet Arrakis, colloquially known as Dune.Herbert notes in Dune that a pre-spice mass is "the stage of fungusoid wild growth achieved when water is flooded into the excretions of Little Makers," [5:] the "half-plant-half-animal deep-sand vector of the Arrakis sandworm."[6:] Gases are produced which result in "a characteristic 'blow,' exchanging the material from deep underground for the matter on the surface above it." [5:] Liet-Kynes describes such a spice blow in Dune:
Then he heard the sand rumbling. Every Fremen knew the sound, could distinguish it immediately from the noises of worms or other desert life. Somewhere beneath him, the pre-spice mass had accumulated enough water and organic matter from the little makers, had reached the critical stage of wild growth. A gigantic bubble of carbon dioxide was forming deep in the sand, heaving upward in an enormous "blow" with a dust whirlpool at its center. It would exchange what had been formed deep in the sand for whatever lay on the surface.[4:]
So, it's worm poop doing its thing underground....
Still, need the worms to produce the pre-spice mass. Worms require the desert environment....
What happens to society if the planet Arakis is transformed into a non-desert planet and there are no more worms to produce the spice?
As noted earlier even space travel depends on spice.... it is "absolutely necessary to civilization" at this time (like petroleum products are today as was noted earlier)... what happens when you remove this necessary product? How does society continue to function?
Probably the idea is explored in later books, but it just doesn't seem like a logical course of action.
Still, need the worms to produce the pre-spice mass. Worms require the desert environment....
What happens to society if the planet Arakis is transformed into a non-desert planet and there are no more worms to produce the spice?
As noted earlier even space travel depends on spice.... it is "absolutely necessary to civilization" at this time (like petroleum products are today as was noted earlier)... what happens when you remove this necessary product? How does society continue to function?
Probably the idea is explored in later books, but it just doesn't seem like a logical course of action.
This is adressed at the ending of Dune.Paul said, "There will be flowing water here open to the sky and green oases rich with good things. But we have the spice to think of, too. Thus, there will always be desert on Arrakis..."
Ahhh, I had forgotten about that. I guess with more limited quantities the controllers of spice will be even more powerful!
That was one of Leto II's concerns.Humanity had grown too dependent on the spice.
In the end, he lets himself be assasinated in order for the newer species of sand worm to survive on other planets, hence to free humanity from the one and only source of spice and the power to enslave them.(The Golden Path)
wow! does this happen in Dune? I don't remember it at all....
I think people have been including the Dune sequels in this discussion, Vorlady.
I found the book entertaining, even addictive. However, I was continually annoyed by all the superlatives. Arrakis is only place for Spice. Leto is the bravest, most honest, most loved Duke ever. Jessica can control the bodies of other people within a couple of minutes of meeting them. Instantly upon birth, Alia can talk and remember the lives of bins of reverend mothers. In his mid-teens, Paul is a master of hand-to-hand combat, a mind controller, a brilliant tactician, a chick magnet, a practiced pilot, a natural desert-dweller, a gentle soul, and a seer of the future. Paul may have felt some worry about the ending, but I never did.
One thing that was never addressed to my satisfaction:Leto II and Ghanima, their pre-born memories, how did Ghanima get Chani's memories if Chani wasn't a Reverend Mother. How did either of them get any Fremen memories at all? How did Leto II get the male memories?
I can't remember if Paul got the male memories when he drank the Water of Life, please bear with me if I have forgotten something.
And same thing with Murbella, how did she get Honored Matres memories when no one before here did?
I was under the impression that these were chains of memories passed on from one Reverend Mother to another. It makes sense in Alia's situation because she was a fetus when Jessica transformed the Water of Life.
Any insight would be helpful...
I can't recall all of the particulars at this moment - but I seem to recall that Chani was, in fact, a Reverend Mother. Not of the Bene Gesserit, of course, but the Sayyadina (sp?) of the sietch.Murbella I don't recall very much at all. My memory wants to say it's because the previous Honored Matres weren't "doing it right" - and it had something to do with her being the first Honored Matre to "defect," as it were.
Yes, Chani was a Sayyadina but that is not the equavalent of a Reverend Mother. Jessic was Sayyadina before her and she wasn't elevated to Reverend Mother status until she transformed the Water of Life.My memories of Murbella are not so great, maybe because I never liked her.
The genetic memories exist in all people. They are passed doen in our genes. they are the junk in our genes.The memories on the womans side end at the moment of birth. We have alof our mothers memories and all of her mothes etc up to the moment of our birth. This is limiting as all the wisdom of our elders is still lost
mans memories go back to the moment of ejaculation.
The reverend mothers have learned to share their memories. preserving the wisdom of a reverend mother till the moment of their death.
The spice and the conversion to reverend mother give the trained mind access to these memories.
If the mind is untrained or does not have a developed personality the memories can overwelm the person. you can be possessed by your predicessors.
It never made any sense to me that the reverend mothers could not access the male memories or how doing so would give someone such super powers.
Perhaps having access to the combined lives of mankind you see all the past patterns and can know exactly what is going to happen. If you know everything and have unlimited processing power you can state every possible outcome and what is the most likely.
I have struggled so much lately to find a good book. I feel like I ought to like something, but then it turns out just meh. Finally, I found something into which I could sink my teeth. I absolutely loved it. Unfortunately, my travel addled brain is struggling to find a coherent way to explain why. I will have to come back when I am more lucid.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
National Lampoon's Doon (other topics)National Lampoon's Doon (other topics)
Dune (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Raymond E. Feist (other topics)Piers Anthony (other topics)
Please, post what you think about the book, what confused you, what you liked or didn't like. Just so long as you've finished the book.