A Visit from the Goon Squad
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Chapter 7: "A to B"
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I think that she probably did capture the feel of Post 9/11 in the Northeast where everything happened but where I live the animosity toward people with "dark" skin is diffused by the multitude of different ethnic groups with "dark" skin.I felt that Egan portrayed the reactions of Steph and Bennie to the things going on in their lives as pretty close to the truth. That the fact that it took Jules to point out to Steph that some thing was amiss is often the norm. She was so busy with her own deceptions and life that she did not notice that Bennie was also off on his own course. Her reaction to the realization that he had again betrayed her was real. She only brought herself to swallow the hurt and betrayal when Noreen let her know that she was not alone in her hurt and that there were people that cared for her, Jules and her son.
Struggling to figure out how I felt about this chapter, I think I might have to read it again or at least skim back over it.When I read the second chapter I didn't really think about Stephanie - I kind of dismissed her as 'the ex-wife' without really thinking about it. Now she's been fleshed out, I find myself liking her more than Bennie, and hating Bennie for hurting her. I thought it was stupid that she lied about the tennis, but she didn't deserve Bennie's 'revenge'. That said, I think it's quite sad that their marriage didn't end up working out, as from the glimpses I had of the positive elements of their relationship, they seemed like a really strong pairing.
Perhaps wrongly, the post-9/11 atmosphere didn't really have much of an impact on me in this chapter, it was more about the human relationships/interactions for me. There seems to be an emerging theme of people with early promise and talent failing to achieve the greatness expected of them - Scotty in chapter #6, possibly Jocelyn and/or Rhea too, Jules and Bosco in this one.
I very much liked this chapter...especially part V. I am getting to a point where I'm tiring of new characters. So far we have Sasha, Bennie, Alice, Scott, Rhea, Jocelyn, Rosco, Lou, Charlie, Stephanie...and their sub-counterparts: Jules, La Doll, Alex, Bosco, Cora and Mindy. Not all important characters, but all names I'm trying to keep track of how and who they tie in because they may come back later.
I just feel that by this point of a book, most characters should have already been introduced.
The post 9/11 elements of the chapter didn't really stand out to me. They were there, but didn't seem all that significant in terms of everything else that happened in the chapter. I was very surprised to see how much I liked Stephanie. I'm kind of glad that Egan took the time to really explain her to us- I wasn't quite sure what to think of her after Bennie's chapter. I wasn't really a fan of Jules and Bosco. I thought Stephanie was really an interesting character though.
I agree with Shannon. The 9/11 reference didn't stand out. I really like the voice of Stephanie. When she's mentioned earlier in the book she's just the ex. In this chapter we get to know her. She seems to have many insecurities about Bennie's fidelity and for good reason. After forgiving him in the past, this latest bit of perfidiousness hurts her deeply. She's got a lot going on. A cheating husband, a friend on a "Suicide Tour", a brother just out if the pen and trying to fit in with Stepford Wives.
For me, this has been one of the most interesting chapters to read so far.
I agree with many here, the 9/11 reference was mere backdrop and didn't feel like it was a big part of the story. I liked this chapter a lot because of Stephanie. I could really rate to what she was goigt through thanks to Egan's superb storytelling. Again we are taken to a pivotal moment in the life of some of the characters here, to which they look back and either regret or celebrate. It is a powerful way to illustrate how time affects people. Because Time is a goon, right?
The 9/11 reference was short and sweet as you may say but didn't really have much to say. I really like Stephanie and mostly that is all I liked about this chapter.
I loved the reflection that Stephanie had on her younger days, that sense of reckless abandonment and invincibility, thinking you still have time to change your actions and won't have to pay for the consequences..."She was thinking of the old days, as she and Bennie now cllaed them -- not just pre-Cranale, but premarriage, drug renunciation, preresponsibility of any kid when they were still kicking around the Lower East Side with Bosco, going to bed after sunrise, turning up at strangers' apartments, having sex in quasi public, engaging in daring acts that had once incldued (for her) shooting heroin, because none of it was serious. they were young and luck and strong -- what did they have to worry about? If they didn't like the result, they could go back and start again."
This book is such a case study in looking at a life over a period of time and the depressing reality of the truth of what can happen. This epitomizes it, especially when she sees what happens to Bosco as he is planning his Suicide Tour. I can't help but admit it makes me feel depressed for the future because I feel like i'm at an age where i'm holding on to that invincibility stage, and this is making me want to hold on for all it is worth!
Blair wrote: "Struggling to figure out how I felt about this chapter, I think I might have to read it again or at least skim back over it.When I read the second chapter I didn't really think about Stephanie ..."
I love what you said about the characters with early promise failing to fulfill their promise from their youth. I think it is a thing most people struggle with as they get older, but I don't feel like I know enough to see if Egan is portraying it as just a part of life or if these people didn't actively pursue their talents enough to get to the level where they would be fulfilled. Any thoughts?
Kristin wrote: I think it is a thing most people struggle with as they get older, but I don't feel like I know enough to see if Egan is portraying it as just a part of life or if these people didn't actively pursue their talents enough to get to the level where they would be fulfilled. Any thoughts? I've been wondering the same thing, actually. In Stephanie's case I see both being real possibilities, but all her reflections on the country club lifestyle that she's currently leading make me think that on some level, she feels like a sellout. Everybody compromises as they get older, and that is definitely part of what's going on here. However, Stephanie seems to have a LOT of regrets. When she finds out about Bosco's plans for the Suicide Tour and discovers Bennie's infidelity, I can't help but think that she wishes she had done things differently in the past.
I thought the post 9/11 reference was interesting, because I'm from Kansas, where so many people act like "Cardboard". I wondered if that's why Bennie had an affair with Kathy--to get back at her husband for stereotyping Bennie.
Trysha wrote: "I very much liked this chapter...especially part V. I am getting to a point where I'm tiring of new characters. So far we have Sasha, Bennie, Alice, Scott, Rhea, Jocelyn, Rosco, Lou, Charlie, Ste..."
I so agree and though I kind of liked the last chapter I find myself once again why I care about any of these people. I am trying to stick with it but am having a hard time. And judgemental snobs do not surprise me at all,
I liked this chapter, however I don't really think post-effects of 911 were addressed much at all. What I liked about this chapter was the chagrin felt my both Stephanie and Bennie when it came to fitting in somewhere they didn't belong. I think most people, at some point in their lives, have a period of non-fitting in. And it is hard to deal with. Stephanie took to lying to her husband about playing tennis. Bennie ended up cheating on his wife again. I think when people feel they do not fit in, or that they do not belong in that place where they are, they feel disquiet and a need to escape it. Stephanie and Bennie both found mediums of escape rather than dealing with the situation and moving away.
Reading this was a way to be on the outside of a bad situation looking in, which I enjoy b/c I feel like I am able to gain some insight into life.
I enjoyed this chapter and found Stephanie very likeable. There were some Mad Men (Don and Betty Draper) connotations there too I felt - Stephanie trapped in Cransdale living, Bennie uncomfortable but trying to adjust by cheating.Not certain about the post-9/11 mood as I'm not in America, but I think it captured the insecurity and uncertainly that we in other parts of the world felt afterwards.
I've actually been thinking about the outcast Noreen, "their neighbor to the right, who had clanging mannerisms and wore oversize sunglasses, whose hands shook violently - from medication, Stephanie presumed. Noreen had three lovely children, but none of the women talked to her. She was a ghost. No thank you, Stephanie thought." Stephanie wanted to be accepted by ,what would be called in a teen novel, the "popular girls." Kathy represented status and "the beautiful people", and Stephanie felt that being part of this was of the utmost importance. However, her acceptance was a mirage, as she discovered when Kathy's gold bobby pin stuck to the bottom of her bare foot and betrayal was revealed. This bobby pin seems to symbolize the piercing of Stephanie's illusions about this gilded world and she wanders out into a flowerbed, where she crunches the plants that she and Bennie planted together beneath her feet, ignoring the calls from her family. This is when she encounters Noreen, who generally hovers along the fence line.What's interesting is that Noreen doesn't pry...she doesn't seem to criticize or show bitterness for being shunned..."and as the minutes passed she seemed to fade into the rummaging breeze and chatter of insects, as if the night itself were alive." Then the chapter ends as the two woman say "Good Night." So what does Noreen symbolize?
One thought I have is that perhaps Noreen represents reality beyond a shattered illusion. When Stephanie sees things as they really are in her personal life once and for all, this is when Noreen appears not a strange, skittish outcast but as a somewhat comforting figure who just is...who seems to blend into the world , accepting that which is around her in a non-judgmental way. Perhaps Stephanie recognizes that Noreen's real existence is what is really important and this is why she knows she must be divorce Bennie and move on with her life.
Any other thoughts about Noreen?
Mimi wrote: "I've actually been thinking about the outcast Noreen,Mimi, I agree with you. I think the character of Noreen is vitally important to this chapter, way moreso than the post-9/11 theme. I like how you've related her to reality instead of illusion. In the secluded world of their neighborhood, Noreen looks like the illusion. But it is all of the fake snobs who aren't real--Noreen is real life, the pain, the insecurity. No wonder she hides in the flower garden, she's surrounded by Stepford wives.
Oh crap! I was almost finished writing my post when I hit who-knows-what-keys and the whole thing disappeared. Now if I can remember what I said...9/11 angle - subtle but you could feel the Cransdale people's suspicions of Bennie because of his looks.
I liked it that all the characters weren't introduced at the beginning. I would have been overwhelmed and not remembered who was who and how they fit in. With new characters being introduced each chapter I feel like I get to know them. Then when they show up again it'll be like seeing old friends who have brought new friends with them.
Stephanie is very easy to like, at least in this chapter. Who knows what we'll learn about her later :) I see similarities between Stephanie and Rhea trying to fit in. Stephanie has her tennis to ease her way into the popular crowd, while Rhea used her green hair and spikes to feel like she fit in. Stephanie enjoys the tennis, but she still feels like the outsider in the Stepford Wives club (loved that reference Wendy).
I like how Jules ends up fitting into the story, alhough his backstory is bizarre. And I LOVE the Bosco storyline! Yeah, time IS a goon. The Suicide Tour is going to be the greatest reality show. I couldn't stop laughing. One of my favorite parts just for the entertainment value :~)
Despised Bennie for his betrayal.
Wow Mimi. I would have never gotten that deep but your post is great. It made me pay more attention to Noreen. Can I go to another group and copy it? :~)
This was my favorite chapter so far, possibly because Stephanie was a character who is likeable and the theme of trying to fit in with your surroundings. The only other character so far was Rhea. I hope Rhea returns and that we learn more about Stephanie. I also liked the character of Noreen and how Stephanie seemed to be a lot like her by the end of the chapter.
This chapter, for me, was the best so far. The peices with Bosco, Jules and the "Suicide Tour" had me laughing! 9/11 was not a big standout to me, but I can relate to the empty skyline...
Trysha wrote: "I very much liked this chapter...especially part V. I am getting to a point where I'm tiring of new characters. So far we have Sasha, Bennie, Alice, Scott, Rhea, Jocelyn, Rosco, Lou, Charlie, Ste..."
Agree! That was exactly my thought when reading this chapter. But I have a feeling it will continue... I'm getting weary of trying to keep track.
Do people think Bennie cheated with Kathy purely as revenge on Stephanie for lying about the tennis? (Maybe this is obvious. Didn't occur to me until someone mentioned it above though.) When I read it, I thought it was a coincidence, but could be totally wrong. Because it seems kind of harsh.
I was not sure about that when reading it either. I was thinking maybe Bennie went back to his old ways and Stephanie though of it as revenge for lying to him as a way to not think of it as Bennie still engaging in his old ways.
It makes sense to me that Bennie would try to gain more "power" back by sleeping with Kathy, and who knows who else. Reminiscent of Lou, who married Mindy also out of a need to show who's the dominant one in the relationship.I like the way Egan references to post 9/11 America (such as earlier when I think Sasha was the one who pointed out the empty space where the Twin Towers used to stand). The instability and insecurity was prevalent throughout society -- even in what seems like such a tame neighborhood like Crandale. I didn't understand why the neighbors were giving such dirty looks to Bennie at first, but I do feel bad for him that Cardboard Clay's prejudiced view took over the minds of the rest of the neighborhood.
this is my favorite chapter and feel side B is off to a good start. I realize that I really like Stephanie and really dislike Bennie. Want to know more about Stephanie. Did not like her brother. And I found all the Bosco stuff very amusing- and so rock star like Like others I did not find the Sept 11th references to be a big part of the story. What was Bennie's point in sleeping with Kathy? and have we seen the last of Kathy (hope so)
In earlier chapters people mentioned how different perspectives made them like characters more and less. If time is a goon and the book is about a visit from the goon squad, then isn't it possible that time plays an equal role with perspective as to how characters are portrayed? That after a visit from the goon squad (time) potential dries to regret and chances for redemption slip further and further away."...because none of it was serious. they were young and lucky and strong -- what did they have to worry about? If they didn't like the result, they could go back and start again."
But time doesn't allow for endless clean slates or perhaps no truly clean slate at all.
In an after thought - time also seems fluid and appears to go both ways. People seemed to enjoy the young Rhea of chater 3 over the young Jocelyn, whereas many readers in chapter 5 perfered the older Jocelyn who was trying to achieve over the older Rhea who was more static and boring.Does this change in preference reflect the different perspectives portrayed or the differences that time and experience and left on the characters?
Megan, your points about time are really thought-provoking! And true, I think--I never stopped and thought about the Jocelyn vs. Rhea thing changing over time, but I think you are totally right. After all, we all change somewhat over time, and probably like ourselves better or worse at different stages.The same can certainly be said of Bennie and Sasha, two of the more major characters (if any characters in this book can be considered "major" since it's such an ensemble cast!). Bennie becomes more and less of a cad as time passes, and for me personally, Sasha becomes more appealing the more I learn about her. Sort of. I mean, she is just a klepto at first, and she's always a klepto, but she becomes more fleshed-out and a more soulful person over time (to me) the more you learn about her relationship with Rob and her time in Italy.
I'll keep reading Katie, I haven't got there yet but I'm glad Sasha will become more likeable. Alot of people seem to enjoy her character but I just don't get her so far. She seems to have just given up on life and got bored from what I know of her so far, so I look forward to that perception becoming more nuanced.
i definitely think it was important that we meet Bennie post divorce in Chp 2 before we meet him in this chapter. Stephanie was easy to relate to in the chapter. We only get hints of their marriage when she mentions how they worked together to make the house a home. But then she finds the bobby pin and we learn just how much work it has been to keep the marriage going. The depiction of her reaction was haunting and I could really feel her anguish.
I was struck by all the characters desire to have a life--Bosco's desperate, ironic attempt by latching onto death; Jule's writing career suddenly revived, and Steph's motivation to become more entrenched in the country club lifestyle. And all the while Noreen is absolutely trapped in an animalistic existence, crouching behind her yard fence with no chance of a life. At the chapter's end, Stephanie wants to retreat a simpler place where her new life with "its new awkward weight" won't be so painful. She crunches and works her way to the most isolated and darkest part of her garden. Momentarily, Noreen's world has its advantages. As with the previous chapters, this is my new favorite chapter.
Katie wrote: "Do people think Bennie cheated with Kathy purely as revenge on Stephanie for lying about the tennis? (Maybe this is obvious. Didn't occur to me until someone mentioned it above though.) When I read..."When reading this initially, I assumed that Bennie was getting "revenge" on Kathy's husband who treated him poorly. Perhaps he was also getting revenge on Stephanie for lying?
When reading Bennie's chapter when seeing that he was divorced and watching his sadness when his son is skipping up to his mom's house after Bennie drops him off after school, I got a twinge of sympathy for Bennie and felt like his sadness that he doesn't get to be with his son as much, and that his relationship with Stephanie didn't work out. NOW, however, I don't feel much sympathy for him. He screwed up his relationship with Stephanie on his own accord by cheating. He cheated Stephanie out of a loving, caring, faithful relationship, and he cheated his son out of a supportive, two parent childhood that kids need. He made a choice to cheat, and choices have consequences. I wonder what made him cheat? What was missing in his relationship with Stephanie? Maybe it was just that nothing could ever compare to Alice and his love for/obsession with her...
Kristin wrote: "I loved the reflection that Stephanie had on her younger days, that sense of reckless abandonment and invincibility, thinking you still have time to change your actions and won't have to pay for th..."I agree! I miss the invincibility stage too! Life is so much more fun when there's no responsibilities and it's all about doing what makes you happy. Think about it - people always say they want to go back to being a kid, when all that mattered was who got to swing first on the tire swing, or who got to sit shotgun in the car. Now there are jobs, bills, schedules, demands...where is the FUN?!
Lindsay wrote: "...What I liked about this chapter was the chagrin felt my both Stephanie and Bennie when it came to fitting in somewhere they didn't belong. I think most people, at some point in their lives, have a period of non-fitting in. And it is hard to deal with. Stephanie took to lying to her husband about playing tennis. Bennie ended up cheating on his wife again. I think when people feel they do not fit in, or that they do not belong in that place where they are, they feel disquiet and a need to escape it. Stephanie and Bennie both found mediums of escape rather than dealing with the situation and moving away."I disagree, who is to say who should belong? Bennie and Stephanie could afford the house so should they be chased out just because Bennie's skin is too dark, because he's Hispanic? I agree with Bennie, "'Let them move,' he said. 'This is my f****** house.'" It's as small minded as my aunt who once told me that it was OK for a mixed couple to get married if they loved each other but they shouldn't have children.
I did think it was funny that after all the sneaking around Stephanie did to play tennis with Kathy,that Bennie cheated with Kathy as well.
I'm glad I'm reading these posts, I really think I don't read closely enough, and that is having an impact on how I understand this narrative. I didn't even connect Bosco's 'time's a goon' statement to the title. And just today I was like, 'why is this book called that? who's the damn goon squad?'. Makes a lot of sense now ... that's why everything's all out of sequence, it's like an ambush of memory, beaten into random time. Just try to control those goons; you never will.
There were a few post 9/11 references, the first being made by Sasha in Ch 1, was it? Jules made a comment about missing buildings while in the car with Steph on the Cross Bronx Expressway, and being strip-searched every time you go to someone's office. And when "Jules stared at the glittering skyline of Lower Manhattan without recognition. I'm like America, he said. Our hands are dirty". I'm not quite sure what he meant by that though. The country club people staring at Bennie's darker skin and asking about his last name. Other than that, it wasn't a big thing, unless I missed it.Yay, Megan - excellent points! I didn't get the title until Bosco made that comment and a light bulb went off, well after awhile. Bosco said "time's a goon, right? Isn't that the expression?" And I thought, gee, I've never heard that expression before, right before I read Jules say the very same thing!! Cracked me up. I'm easily amused. So "goon" as a definition means a silly, foolish or eccentric person. Or a bully, thug, esp. one hired to terrorize. It seems that these characters have all been affected by this goon squad.
The gold bobby pin was pretty incriminating but we don't know yet for a fact that Bennie was cheating with Kathy. I admit, my first thought was Kathy - who else wears that color bobby pin? Alice but she lives in SF.
Noreen seemed kinda creepy to me, hanging out by the fence like that. But I liked how she reached out to Steph and how the chapter ended with their goodnights.
i love this story because i love stephanie...she's sneaking around trying to plan this perfect lie and it just keeps getting screwed up and i love that she trust her a husband (a man that shouldn't be trusted) so much that she notices that kathy and bennie have something that brushes it off. it's jules that draws attention to the fact that they are both hiding something and stephanie's reaction to that, the fact that she's sneaking around, but really that means nothing in the light of bennies' affair, is so real as to be painful and we know that after she has her moment in the grass with crazy noreen watching everything, she has to go back into the house, confess (like she said she was going to) and break it, as we know she does after reading chapter 2...we know she breaks it in such a way that bennie is left impotent and we could see that coming with the harsh way she treats bosco after he calls her old. this woman with the tattoo and spiky brown hair may think she's different than those blondies, but she really isn't.
Don't like Bennie and don't like his wife. But I really would like to have seen how she was when she was younger. That Stephanie, before she wall jaded and suburban, I think I would have liked.
While I've been enjoying the book, for the first time I like the book. The book is more of a challenge than I first thought though. I'm going to be rereading this soon after I'm finished going through it this first time.
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How did you feel Egan handled the more "current events" subject matter in this chapter? Did you feel like she accurately captured the feel of post-9/11 America? What else did you think of this chapter?