A Visit from the Goon Squad
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Chapter 5: "You (Plural)"
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Those are the same questions that I felt the first time I realized that my Parents where old. When does your mind finally realize that you are old? I do not think that Lou's mind even at that late stage in his life felt that he was not the Lou that lie by the pool and directed the lives of so many people. Until they visit and he sees that even they are older. I think that realization is shown in these lines:" Nice to be. With you girls", he says fighting to breathe.
Clutching our hands, as if we might flee. But we don't. We look at the pool and we listen to the birds.
"Another minute," he says. "Thank you girls. One more. Like this."
Yes, he needed redemption. We all do. Do I think he gets one is different. And too religion/faith-based for me to answer. (Because I'm scared that no one gets redemption.)
Do I think he's "paid" for his mistakes? I think he does pay his dues, in the form of his son's suicide. Although of course, his son paid the majority of those dues.
This was the most painful chapter of the book for me. Her never-ceasing struggle to stay afloat.
I am not sure that I particularly liked this chapter, though I did like how much the girls had changed. I didn't think that Lou's sickness and aging really showed redemption, and I don't necessarily think he needed any (apart from the sleeping with teenaged girls and all...). What I was really intrigued by in this chapter was the relationship with Rolph and Jocelyn- you kept getting glimpses of it, but not enough to satisfy the curiosity.
I thought this chapter was beautifully written, but very sad. I'm not sure how I feel about Lou here; he seems so removed from how he appears in the other chapters, which I know is the point, but the jump from what he was to this seemed so big that it prevented me from seeing him as receiving his redemption/comeuppance. I thought Jocelyn and Rhea seemed much older than early-40s, perhaps because they'd been through so much, starting when they were so young. I found the glimpses of Jocelyn and Rolph's relationship very interesting, if a bit frustrating because the story wasn't properly told, just hinted at.
I'm with you Blair, I really wish I knew more about Jocelyn and Rolph's relationship. I loved Sasha but felt more connected to Jocelyn. THIS was my favorite chapter in the book. Being in my 40's and seeing my elderly parents now..I "get it". I pitied Lou.. he had a big house and big career but he was sick in more ways than one and in the end didn't have anything. Anyone else creeped a bit when he made a comment about Rhea's daughter?
I liked this chapter just because we get a chance to see Rhea and Jocelyn again. I didn't fell anything for Lou. He has seemed amoral and self-serving and hasn't changed judging by his comment about Rhea's daughter. I felt more for Jocelyn who's not in a good place in her life. Rhea's life has moved forward. She's married and has a family. Jocelyn life has left her living with her mother and studying flash cards. I think she feels like she wasted some of her precious youth on Lou.
Rhea has turned into a patronizing nag, Lou is way beyond his past due date, and Jocelyn gets the shitty life? What am I missing here? Why are people enjoying this book? I feel like Maureen Stapleton in Woody Allen's movie "Interiors". These are not flawed human beings. They are assholes who cause real harm. Why do you care about them?
Blair wrote: "I thought this chapter was beautifully written, but very sad. I'm not sure how I feel about Lou here; he seems so removed from how he appears in the other chapters, which I know is the point, but t..."COuld Egan have been working in the shadows of things and that the reality was supernatural in a way. Not that it did not happen, but that there were so many ghosts in this chapter that it could not be told in a regular detailed way.
Kristin wrote: "Rhea has turned into a patronizing nag, Lou is way beyond his past due date, and Jocelyn gets the shitty life? What am I missing here? Why are people enjoying this book? I feel like Maureen Stapl..."
Because we are all assholes in our own ways and just because they seem bigger in the asshole department does not mean that we can't relate to their perversions.
I actually liked this chapter. I'm not drawn to Lou, Rhea or Jocelyn's characters, but this chapter worked.
Another chapter with such effortless brilliance. The sorrow and rage in Jocelyn's voice had just the right level of bitterness; it isn't overpowering and isn't corny. Lou's ageing and sickness didn't redeem him for his past, I thought, but Rolph's suicide sort of did. There was a lot of regret there. Would love to know more about Rolph's and Jocelyn's relationship.
This is the first chapter that I liked. I found Jocelyn's voice absolutely heartbreaking, and it's the first chapter that I the writing style didn't bother me.
This Chapter made me so sad. It's one of those perfect examples of how life can just sweep you up and turn out a million different ways - none of which you expected. Egan has so many voices in her head and they all seem to come across so real on the page. I wonder what it must be like for her to walk around like that? What a talent!
Kristin wrote: "Rhea has turned into a patronizing nag, Lou is way beyond his past due date, and Jocelyn gets the shitty life? What am I missing here? Why are people enjoying this book? I feel like Maureen Stapl..."
Aren't assholes who cause real harm flawed human beings? I never thought there was a difference between the two, only a difference in the ways we are flawed.
I can't get over how much I love the structure of this book. It's interesting and different - challenging typicall structure which is great. I loved Rhea in her chapter, but it is interesting to see her from a differnt point of view. That is the beauty of this novel, seeing the characters from a variety of viewpoints, seeing them for what they are rather than just a narrator or single characters view. I love Rolph, and i'm devestated by this aspect of the story. Its so interesting that this child who had such life in the previous chapter has such a tragic end. Like other readers, I want to know more about what happened with him and Jocelyn.
I can't stop reading because i feel like with all these story lines you never know what is coming next, who you're going to meet, or how they are going impact this 5 degrees of separation we're seeing in this novel.
Shannon wrote: "I am not sure that I particularly liked this chapter, though I did like how much the girls had changed. I didn't think that Lou's sickness and aging really showed redemption, and I don't necessari..."I was interested in their relationship too. I was sad when I found out Rolph killed himself.
From a safari to a deathbed> Hmmm Anyway not sure how I feel about this chapter. Lou dying - everyone does eventually. Rhea has moved on and is now respectable and Jocely stuck in place, dreams unfulfilled and jealous of Rhea because she is not.
I thought it was interesting how Rhea and Jocelyn changed in respect to each other. In Chapter 3, Rhea was tied so tightly to Jocelyn, idolized her, so much that she didn't know how to talk to Alice when they were alone. Rhea had tried to fit in, to be "cool" and grown up like Jocelyn, to the point where she was crying during the sex scene in the club--she felt like she'd participated in it. Then, in this chapter, Jocelyn is the lost one who has never found her own path and Rhea is the one who's mature and sure of herself. Yet after all this time, they cling together like when they were teenagers.
This chapter kinda pissed me off....I am a person who is greatly frustrated by people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and admit "Hey, I really screwed up and this is all my fault". Reading this chapter made me feel annoyed with Jocelyn. The way she described things, I felt like she was saying she had no idea how her life ended up the way it was, asking rhetorical questions like "How did you get so old". To me that is a stupid question asked by a stupid person. I guess the realness factor of the chapter was good, b/c there really are people in this world like Jocelyn but that doesn't stop me from hating her inability to reflect on her life. What a friggin' idiot.
However, I was not surprised to see Rhea turn out to be a grounded mother of three. In the earlier chapter, when they are teens, all lusting after each other and Rhea was feeling left out, I could see in her the type of girl who is there to have fun but knows what counts deep down. She was the one going through a phase, but Jocelyn was the really screwed up one. But when they were teens, it appeared to be the other way around.
MP: "Anyone else creeped a bit when he made a comment about Rhea's daughter?" Rhea was!
Although I felt sorry for Lou, as I would for anyone who lost his son and is facing the end of his life, I'm not sure if he really redeemed himself. According to Dictionary.com, "redemption" is an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed ...deliverance; rescue...deliverance from sin; salvation. I just don't see how that applies to Lou here since he seems to end up where he was so many years before at the end of the chapter. I think that the pool incident with Jocelyn awakened something of his old self within him,and at least he was able to face the end of his life feeling like himself, although I don't see that he really thinks that he has done anything wrong in his life.His comment about Rhea's daughter just shows how, in spite of his age and infirmity, he really has not changed and thus has not really achieved redemption.
I am really fascinated by this story. I may not love all the characters but I don't think that is the author's intention. These are very flawed yet very human players ... and, as I see it, perhaps the idea is to look at the lives of these imperfect, sometimes downright despicable, individuals and then look at ourselves, evaluate our own faults and then figure out how to go ahead and improve our own lots in life.
Mimi wrote: "I am really fascinated by this story. I may not love all the characters but I don't think that is the author's intention. These are very flawed yet very human players ... and, as I see it, perhaps the idea is to look at the lives of these imperfect, sometimes downright despicable, individuals and then look at ourselves, evaluate our own faults and then figure out how to go ahead and improve our own lots in life. "I think you're right on here. A frequent refrain in the comments is that people don't like the characters. My question is whether that's important or not? Do you have to like the characters to enjoy a novel? I don't think I need to, but I know other people feel differently. What do you all think?
I have finished the novel, so my reply to Mimi and Patrick is that I also feel that the author's intent was to show flawed characters, some who are unlikeable. Basic psychology tells us that the traits we most deplore in other people are the ones we ourselves exhibit: we unconsciously despise our own behavior. So for me, looking back on the book, I'm thinking about Jocelyn, Scotty, Lou, and wondering, "Why did I dislike them so much? In what way do I resemble them?"
I didn't like this chapter as much as the first two. I don't think there was redemption involved, more regret and lack of learning from experience.
Great chapter, albeit a sad one, somewhat bitterly told from Jocelyn's perspective (I 'liked' how it was mentioned that her father had died of AIDS, tying in nicely with her seeing him outside a gay club in chapter 3 - this book has a lot of these small backreferences that weave the chapters together into a whole book.)Anyway, just wanted to say I loved the little flashback about Rolph and Jocelyn lying on the roof of Lou's house waiting for the sun to come up (back when sunlight didn't 'hurt' Jocelyn yet). Just like in Safari, Egan displays an ability to evoke strong emotions with these small jumps in time, either back or forward.
Lindsay wrote: "This chapter kinda pissed me off....I am a person who is greatly frustrated by people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and admit "Hey, I really screwed up and this is all my faul..."Lindsay, I am curious about how old you are. I'm 52 and nothing like Jocelyn, but I also have moments when I stop and wonder how my life got away from me, where did it go. People I haven't seen in a while look the same in my mind as the last time I saw them. And I often don't realize how old I've gotten :~)
I think Jocelyn lost so much of herself in her excesses that she really doesn't know how her life became such a mess. I was glad she had her time with Rolph. Rhea seems like a lot of us who so desperately wanted to fit in, and it's not until we're older that we start to feel comfortable in our own skin. Then there's Lou - what a slimeball. I feel no pity for him at all. I agree with Patrick and others who think we don't have to like the characters to enjoy the story. Thank goodness or there are many books I might have not finished, or missed.
I'm not sure about Sasha and Benny yet. Still getting a feel for them, the more I learn, the clearer they become.
For me, Lou never got his redemption because he was never looking for one. I've only read through this chapter so far, but since Rolph seemed to represent the only pure and good side left of Lou, my guess is Lou must have gone down some really dark paths for his innocent side (a.k.a. Rolph) to perish. Lou doesn't really bother me that much as a character. There are plenty of dirty old men out there. I was slightly disgusted at the start of Jocelyn's and Lou's relationship (Really? Picking her up off the side of a road? But 1979, I guess that was a different time and maybe more common?), but I don't mind Lou. I found the comment from him about Rhea's daughter a little humorous.I don't even necessarily look for characters I "like" in a story. I'm very interested in getting to know people -- what makes them tick, their quirks, their perspectives in life, their philosophies and their developments. Likability isn't so much a factor for me as much as understanding their thought processes behind their actions.
I love this chapter. It's very poignant. It's nice to know that at some point, someone stands up to Lou. I absolutely feel for Jocelyn.
I also liked this chapter.I was touched by the lines about age- and I often wonder how I got so old myself.I do not like Lou- not one bit- in fact I hope he dies soon and gets out of this story. Funny in the chapter with Rhea speaking I liked her and did not like Jocelyn. But in this chapter I did not really like Rhea and did get Jocelyn. It is a matter of point of view.
I enjoyed Samantha's comments. I felt that this chapter had little to do with redemption and more to do with the passing of time. I'm curious to find out more about Jocelyn and Rolph but I guess if that happens then Lou will come too and I don't really care about Lou. I enjoyed the comment that Rolph seems to represent the only innocent part of Lou.
Paige - I also find that my view of characters changes depending on who is narrating. Maybe that is part of the plan of the book. There is no real, it's all based on our point of view. Maybe this harkens back to the yes/no look and the stop/go girls. Everything is multifaceted.
I'm really having a hard time getting into the story or caring about the characters. I never start a book and don't finish so I'll keep reading. I just hope that I can get more drawn into these people and their lives.
I don't have to like the characters in a book, but I do need to care what happens to them if that makes any sense.Patrick wrote: "Mimi wrote: "I am really fascinated by this story. I may not love all the characters but I don't think that is the author's intention. These are very flawed yet very human players ... and, as I see..."
I started this book to step out of my comfort zone. I felt like since this is in a book club if I write about it it will make it easier to stick with it. I'm glad I did this because I don't really "feel" this book. If I read this on my own without doing these discussions I would have missed so much. I may not "feel" this book, but there is so much to think about from it. Compared to the last two chapters I didn't really like this chapter, but it has been the one to make me think the most. I also feel that so far it seems to be the most crucial chapter. I'm young and don't ponder the passage of time, but I feel that after this chapter I have to. I have to ask those questions Jocelyn had for Lou or else I will be stuck with unsatisfactory answers. I feel if I ask myself these now I still have time to maniputlate the outcome to something I can truly live with.
I still feel more of a connection with Rhea because I can still see myself having her life. I do not want Jocelyn's life and I see many of my friends from high school going towards this direction. As for Lou I feel pity for him and can't stand that. Pity is one of the worst feelings in my mind, I would rather hate him than feel bad for him because it makes me feel like I am better than him. I may not do the same things as he does, but I still make mistakes and don't want people to pity me so I shouldn't pity him.
The comment about Rhea's daughter made me laugh actually. I feel that if he didn't make it, it would seem to morbid. His comment helped lighten up the mood for Rhea and Jocelyn and they needed that. I think he did it so that when they remember him they don't remember the shell he was on his deathbed, but the man filled to the brim with life dispite the fact that he was also a disgusting pig.
I agree with Mimi and Patrick that you don't have to like the characters to like the story. No sympathy for either Lou or Jocelyn. Lou is a creep, sleeping with a girl not only under aged but young enough to be his own kid. Karma.
Jocelyn crying over spilled milk. It was her own life choices that has gotten here where she is. She had the same twenty years as Rhea, it's not like she was in a coma for those years.
I never really liked Lou. In this chapter I was paying more attention to the updates on Rhea, Jocelyn and Rolph than what was going on with Lou. I did kind of pity him, but it seems like such a waste of a life. He had money and a career. He could have done some goos things with his life but instead he was selfish and it came back to him being alone at the end. Seems like Jocelyn is kind of ending up for the same kind of fate...
Lou the Lech did make me laugh just a teeny bit from that comment about Rhea's daughter. Did he say it just to get a rise out of Rhea? Or to "lighten things up" as someone here mentioned (sorry I can't find who said it)? OR, he just truly can't stop himself - once a lech, always a lech? I was cheering Jocelyn on while reading the dumping Lou in the pool scene - YES! Oh...darn...it didn't really happen. Probably for the best because Jo would've been thrown in jail. Hopefully, just telling Lou that she wanted to kill him, see him dead and he replied while looking scared but with his old smile, "Too late". He's already dead - inside. And that's when you truly start getting old IMO, when you start dying inside, believing you're old or something. Your body may age grossly and way before you think it will (I was and still am shocked by it) but your inner self stays the same, ageless. Like Patrick, I love that paragraph too. This chapter was heartbreaking, especially about Rolph and what could've been between him and Jocelyn. I loved the part when she said that they shared the same birthday, even same year - like they were twins. How they stood naked side by side, comparing, to see a visual connection. I absolutely love Egan's descriptions - she paints with such visually detailed pictures. And how she moves us through time to see past, present and future with such ease. For some reason, in a few movies, this confuses me, but not in this book. Excellent technique.
No, I don't need to like the characters I'm reading about but I do need to care about them and what happens. Plus, the curiosity factor - LOL, as mentioned in an earlier chapter comment by a witty reader :) - "structural curiosity".
Lou is icking and he will die being an icky man having learned nothing even after the death of his son...sadness, as i liked rolph.jocelynn will be fine, now that she's seen lou. you can tell it was touch and go before that...i like that she looks at lou and realizes that she let this weak man affect her so much and for no reason.
i like that rhea is a mom and a good one living a normal life in seattle...this would seem like failure to lou but you can tell that he is in awe of her and has always been.
i like that jocelynn recognizes that rhea was really only 'pretending'.
in the end everyone heals...maybe even lou...a little.
Kristin wrote: "Rhea has turned into a patronizing nag, Lou is way beyond his past due date, and Jocelyn gets the shitty life? What am I missing here? Why are people enjoying this book? I feel like Maureen Stapl..."
It's the same concept as to why people find your comment entertaining. It's because your an asshole and people enjoy conflict.
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"We stand there, quiet. My questions all seem wrong: How did you get so old? Was it all at once, in a day, or did you peter out bit by bit? When did you stop having parties? Did everyone else get old too, or was it just you? Are other people still here, hiding in the palm trees or holding their breath underwater? When did you last swim your laps? Do your bones hurt? Did you know this was coming and hide that you knew, or did it ambush you from behind?"
I'm curious how readers feel about Lou Kline. Do you think he has a kind of redemption? Or maybe you felt he never needed one?