Victorians! discussion
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What are some misconceptions that readers have of Victorian fiction?
Christian wrote: "Hi everyone,
What have you found to be some of the misconceptions that people have about Victorian fiction?
And would you have examples of certain books that prove the misconceptions wrong?
Chr..."
Your book seems interesting, keep me informed if it's translated into spanish and good luck for it!
What have you found to be some of the misconceptions that people have about Victorian fiction?
And would you have examples of certain books that prove the misconceptions wrong?
Chr..."
Your book seems interesting, keep me informed if it's translated into spanish and good luck for it!
I agree with Anna. And I think that many people say that the Victorian books are hard to read. Some of this may be from reading them to young...(and often, it does help to see a movie closely following the book before reading it) but Jane Austen isn't nearly as hard as many people think. The same goes for Charles Dickens and Charlotte Bronte.
Yep. We all battled through Dickens, Austen, the Brontes, etc. in high school, and it was maybe a little too difficult; we just weren't ready for the language. Turns out that the Victorian period is chock full of blazing, gripping drama...but it's that old debate: kids need some kind of foundation by the time they get to college so they can move on to other stuff. We want them to have read some of the basics - say, the Odyssey and Moby-Dick. But on the other hand, those books are big and challenging and the end result is that many people grow up hating them. What do we do? I've never been able to figure this out.
I think there's something about being 'forced' to read something that just turns you right off, regardless of what it is. And particularly when you're young and it's difficult to relate to the past. One misconception is that we're better than previous generations or people from the past just because technology has evolved. I don't believe that for a minute. I think everything is kind of reset every generation.
Antia, I wish I knew Spanish and I'd attempt translating it myself. Unfortunately I'm a one-language pony.
You could give Edith Grossman a call...Reset, huh? In what way? I certainly agree that there's sortof a "But it's all so old-fashioned and gross!" contingent of Victorian-haters.
Sorry, I meant that I think history is often forgotten every couple of generations and everything goes back to zero. Everyone has to relearn everything the previous generation already knew. If that makes sense!
I've found too, discussing it with friends, that reaction of considering victorian fiction as dull but then what about "Alice in wonderland" or Wilde's comedies?
I don't think "forcing" people in schools or somewhere else to read books it's the better way to introduce people in literature. I think teachers should keep in mind the age and interest of kids (in schools example) when they choose what titles should be studied. I've always loved reading, but I remember myself struggling in high-school with books I wouldn't have chosen myself or got to understand.
I generally think that as long as people read and enjoy whatever they read, it's great. There are wonderful books that are classics and others that have lost interest with years, but also great contemporary books.
I don't think "forcing" people in schools or somewhere else to read books it's the better way to introduce people in literature. I think teachers should keep in mind the age and interest of kids (in schools example) when they choose what titles should be studied. I've always loved reading, but I remember myself struggling in high-school with books I wouldn't have chosen myself or got to understand.
I generally think that as long as people read and enjoy whatever they read, it's great. There are wonderful books that are classics and others that have lost interest with years, but also great contemporary books.
Christian wrote: "history is often forgotten every couple of generations and everything goes back to zero. Everyone has to relearn everything the previous generation already knew."Ah. Sure, I get it. I also think that's one of the main benefits of literature; through it, the entire wisdom of the human race is collected and passed on. If you've got a good enough background in literature, you can skip the part where you debate all the stuff people have previously debated and moved on from, and concentrate on new, important things like watching "Real Housewives of Atlanta."
(I'm sure this has happened to all of us: I finally got around to reading Thomas de Quincey and thought "Man, I sure wasted a lot of time coming up with theories about drinking that this guy worked out 200 years ago.")
Antia - yeah...high school would be perfect if English classes were replaced by spontaneous book clubs that read and discussed whatever they wanted to (as long, of course, as I personally approve of their choices). Unfortunately that's not terribly realistic. High school English is hampered by two things: first, that the reading is sometimes over the students' heads, and second, the teacher has to talk about something for 45 minutes every day, which means an awful lot of dreary examination of metaphors and whatnot. I love discussing books, but there's a point of diminishing returns.
I think that's a great point, Alex. There's a hell of a lot of 'debate' online - and it's usually just who can shout the loudest (and often anonymously). Just get reading and a lot of things will become clear. People need to read to be able to see into the past. It's a kind of time travel.Antía, yes - I think just making sure kids are enjoying what they're reading it doesn't matter. And eventually they'll likely go back and forward with the types of books they're reading. Some people just don't seem to enjoy reading - I don't understand these people though :)
I think kids need to first find books they enjoy reading and not be forced into it. When I was little I would read the babysitters club book series but the moment I had to read one and write a book review for class it became a struggle with my parents. I disliked most books we had to read for school but a few I did enjoy. I loved Great Expectations freshman year so maybe I was just meant to love Victorian Lit. The worse part was being told to read. Reading the Harry Potter series really made me love reading and made me realize I had the patience to sit and read longer books. After that length didn't bother me.
Alex wrote: "Antia - yeah...high school would be perfect if English classes were replaced by spontaneous book clubs that read and discussed whatever they wanted to (as long, of course, as I personally approve o..."
Well, I can't tell on English/American high-school methods, but being spanish, and a book-worm since childhood, I can tell reading 16th century literature (I had a great Spanish teacher, but asking 15-years-old stundents to read "Don Quixote" was too much) among other classics was not such easy task. Of all the books I had to read for high-school I just remember loving "100 years of solitude"
Well, I can't tell on English/American high-school methods, but being spanish, and a book-worm since childhood, I can tell reading 16th century literature (I had a great Spanish teacher, but asking 15-years-old stundents to read "Don Quixote" was too much) among other classics was not such easy task. Of all the books I had to read for high-school I just remember loving "100 years of solitude"
Ha - man, Don Quixote at 15. That's often on "Most Difficult Books Ever" lists. I suppose as a Spanish person you can no longer avoid it than I could avoid Hamlet. Hamlet, though, is at least much shorter.I loved Don Quixote - but I read it at 35.
And I guess this proves that we all have different taste. I know lots of people who loathed Dickens in high school, and lots who never could get through 100 Years.
I think maybe Quixote in English is easier than the original Spanish since the translation is 'updated' English every several years. The Grossman translation was very readable. It was a few years ago when I read it - 24 maybe.I'm very surprised that you were reading 100 Years of Solitude at so young an age. Surely too dense a book at 15? Though I did read Tess at 17.
Alex wrote: "Ha - man, Don Quixote at 15. That's often on "Most Difficult Books Ever" lists. I suppose as a Spanish person you can no longer avoid it than I could avoid Hamlet. Hamlet, though, is at least mu..."
Yeah, certainly Cervantes was too hard for me at 15, but hopefully now I'm 31 I'll get to re-read it soon and get to love it. I loved 100 Years of Solitude but maybe because it was contemporary spanish and the fantasy elements made it easier for me. I also remember reading Crime and Punishment and Lord of the Flies for Philosophy class on my last year of high-school.
I remember very well a teacher I had when I was 13-14 years old that made us a list of recommended books, I still have it, it includes Jane Eyre, 3 Musketeers, Treasure Island.. I think much easier classics to read and maybe it helped making my taste for future readings.
@Christian, I can't imagine how Don Quixote sounds in "updated" English! At least here works translated into Spanish are made as same as original, I mean, old English into old Spanish.
Yeah, certainly Cervantes was too hard for me at 15, but hopefully now I'm 31 I'll get to re-read it soon and get to love it. I loved 100 Years of Solitude but maybe because it was contemporary spanish and the fantasy elements made it easier for me. I also remember reading Crime and Punishment and Lord of the Flies for Philosophy class on my last year of high-school.
I remember very well a teacher I had when I was 13-14 years old that made us a list of recommended books, I still have it, it includes Jane Eyre, 3 Musketeers, Treasure Island.. I think much easier classics to read and maybe it helped making my taste for future readings.
@Christian, I can't imagine how Don Quixote sounds in "updated" English! At least here works translated into Spanish are made as same as original, I mean, old English into old Spanish.
Contrary to the apparently popular belief on here, Jane Austen and Dickens can be read and enjoyed by teens. I'm in the middle of my teens, and have read Jane Austen's books many many times. Dickens...not so grabbing, but I love some of his. And Charlotte Bronte is relatively easy! Now obviously, some of this depends on the kid. Some couldn't read "Pride and Prejudice" to save their lives, much less understand it, even when 18. But please remember: some of us teens have been reading books like these since we were 12! And understanding and loving! I know, we're exceptions. :)
Oh, btw? I LOVE Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest." It was hilarious. Definitely a recommendation for everyone. And it's fairly simple reading too...
Christian wrote: "I think maybe Quixote in English is easier than the original Spanish since the translation is 'updated' English every several years. The Grossman translation was very readable."Great, great point! I totally agree. I'd never tolerate an English book updated to modern vernacular, but I actively search out the most recent (well-regarded) translations. I read Grossman's too, last fall, and breezed right through.
Rose's Les Mis, by the way, does occasionally fall into the trap of using slang that wouldn't have been invented back then and jarring you right out of the story. Her one fault.
Treasure Island is a gang of fun. That's an important point too: there are classics that are fun and easy to read. In the 18th century, students are frequently forced to read Richardson or Fielding, who are tough, tough authors; why not Voltaire's Candide instead? Much shorter, a total thrill ride, and arguably a better book anyway.
It might have the effect of changing the canon somewhat - there might not be time to get to Richardson and Fielding later - which would be both good and bad. We can frankly do without Richardson, who kinda sucks, but I wouldn't want to lose Moby Dick in favor of Bartleby the Scrivener, as awesome as Bartleby is.
Just a quick thought: Jane Austen isn't Victorian literature. Jane Austen died 20 years before Victoria became Queen.
Belated to Charity: another excellent point. Pride & Prejudice is pretty easy (although I resisted it at the time because, y'know, I was a boy), and Dickens is a bit long-winded but still has plenty of exciting plots.Wilde in general is easy, fun and wicked smart. Yeah, I would assign that to high schoolers without batting an eye.
Antía wrote: "@Christian, I can't imagine how Don Quixote sounds in "updated" English! At least here works translated into Spanish are made as same as original, I mean, old English into old Spanish."I personally think that's a really bad way to translate. I don't know Spanish so I don't know how it works out with English-Spanish translations, but a lot of translations of pre-20th century French books are atrocious in English because translators try to render them in pre-20th century English, which, although as old as its French counterpart, is nothing like pre-20th century French and often doesn't do anything more than make texts unnecessarily difficult and inaccurate. While, say, Flaubert, Stendhal or even Voltaire are pretty readable in the original French, in translation they're difficult to read and stuffy.
Christian wrote: "Hi everyone,What have you found to be some of the misconceptions that people have about Victorian fiction? ..."
Not so much a misconception, but I see many people reading the books assuming that the characters should have the same principles, beliefs, etc. as modern readers. So they judge characters based on how they should act under modern standards, not whether their behavior was moral under the standards of their times.
Agreed. Examples?For me, one of the big ones is the appropriate marriage age. Right now in Les Mis, there's the romance between Marius (20 I think) and Cosette (15); a similar one happens in War & Peace, and I'm sure everyone has their own squidgy example. I find this creepy, and I have to constantly kick myself and remind myself that back then (and both books were (recent) historical fiction, also), this is just what they did.
The problem is also that victorian novels are usually quite long; nowadays especially young people are used to quik things: short stories, quick films, etc...This is why for istance my son fund Dickens boring, while he went through Animal Farm/1984 or Black Boy without big problems.
The point of being forced to read something when in school is a bit different here in Italy: we usually are not presented with victorian novels in our school years, otherwise it could be true, as Pennac said in his Comme un Roman
Yeah, and Middlemarch probably isn't the right book for a high schooler... But there are shorter ones (Wilde, Stevenson). And heck, half the people I know read and loved all 1400 pages of Count of Monte Cristo. Apparently that book is just that good.
I don't think highschool is too young for Romeo and Juliet...I did an in depth study of the play as Shakespeare wrote it when I was 14.
Alex wrote: "Yeah, and Middlemarch probably isn't the right book for a high schooler... But there are shorter ones (Wilde, Stevenson). And heck, half the people I know read and loved all 1400 pages of Count of Monte Cristo. Apparently that book is just that good."
Dumas books are filled with action and can be read really quickly because he doesn't dwell on details or descriptions as much as somebody like Dickens does. Both Dickens and Dumas wrote for serialization and it affected their writing style quite a lot - while Dumas was paid per line, Dickens was paid by word which means Dumas was much more likely to insert dialogue in his books while Dickens was more likely to launch in long redundant digressions - which are one of the reasons why he's more tedious to read.
I am a teacher and some of my students have just independently read "Frankenstein", "The Picture of Dorian Gray" and "The Monk" - and they really enjoyed "Dracula" which we read together.
Anna wrote: "@ Alex- If you were going to read The Canterbury Tales would you read them in Middle English or a contemporary version? ..."I'm not Alex, but I did teach selected portions of the Canterbury Tales in high school, and used a modern text for most of them, but did one tale, I now forget which (it was a long time ago) in the original to give them a flavor of it, a sense of the beauty of the language, and the confidence to realize that they could successfully read it in the original with a bit of attention and good notes.
I've read Canterbury Tales in the original. :) Never an updated version, no.Tango, your students have damn fine taste in books. All three of those are particular favorites of mine.
Unfortunately, I think many readers today simply focus on books written today. In other words, I really do believe that many readers simply don't even consider looking back and reaching for a novel that was written in the Victorian period, or earlier. Largely, the readers who are here in this group are here because they've discovered the power contained within these books, or they've been exposed to the books of great literature through their education. This is sadly not the norm any longer.All I can do, as a reader, is plug these great books that I read to friends and family and hope that 'it takes' with those I encounter.
I've conducted classics book groups in several locations over the years and here's what I see as some of the main obstacles to these books: 1) Language--It's not the same (obviously!!) and for some, what they don't readily understand puts them off. Many simply refuse to go beyond their ability. I've always told them that Mortimer Adler (American Philosopher) said if we never read anything that goes above our heads, we are doomed to our present low altitude. But that piece of advice doesn't always hold water for people. It doesn't help that many people can't really comprehend what they read above the level of newspaper writing today. Our literacy rates are alarming. What is it, about a 4th grade level?
2) Irrelevance--(I know, can you believe it??) but some just don't see the value or relevance to our day in old books. Bizarre to me, who can't see much relevance or value in today's books--but it's hard sometimes to convince someone otherwise. In every age we tend to overrate our importance and forget/ignore the lessons of the past, right?
3) Length--it's been mentioned already, but this is a huge issue. Our day is totally about quick satisfaction and 2-minute attention spans. It's really hard to convince someone to stick with a book like, say, "War & Peace" while saying, "you might not really get into it until page 900 or so" !!!
Chris, you're exactly right! All we can do is try! I think the reason so many of us love this and other great groups like Reader's Review is because we have a hard time finding someone local who really understands the passion! That's me, anyway.
K. wrote: "we have a hard time finding someone local who really understands the passion!"God yes. My friends' eyes glaze over when I start babbling about my latest old, dusty, long, lame book full of people who talk funny.
VBG Alex, I know the exact feeling. I am SOOOO fortunate to have the best thing in the world, a spouse who understands. We have somewhat different tastes, but otherwise it's bliss to have one person to physically talk to about it (without them falling asleep)...I'm also diligently working on indoctrinating my children, but it will take time. They're young :o)
My wife sorta understands. She's a big reader, and likes old books (and history books about the Tudors), but she doesn't get why I never ever want to take any time out to read something like Hunger Games or Game of Thrones - her "just for fun" reads. "But you'll like it!" Yeah, but I'll like Cranston, too - and then I'll have read Cranston.
K. wrote: "I've conducted classics book groups in several locations over the years and here's what I see as some of the main obstacles to these books: 1) Language--It's not the same (obviously!!) and for so..."
All of these statments are so true, and so sad.
I feel very fortunate to have stumbled onto this goodreads website...I am loving the chance to dive into books that were "forced" on me in school, but have now an adoring appreciation of them. I got a Kindle for a gift last year, and downloaded many classics since they were free. I found GR from a comment on Facebook, and decided to check it out. Wow, did I ever hit the jackpot!!!
Judy, glad you found a trail to this group!
Cool, Judy! Yeah, this site is great. It's made my already-serious reading habit much worse, though. Be warned.
I read Canterbury Tales in college. I was ready for it by then, but I wouldn't inflict it on a high schooler in the original - at least not more than one tale. It's not easy going.Yeah, I get the same sometimes. People just can't understand why I'm so into old stuff. And I get offended when they accuse me of being out of touch, so I generally either challenge them to a duel or gallop away in my phaeton.
Alex, thanks for making me laugh! Anna, isn't it funny that people could be so mistaken? (Not that being mistaken is unusual or anything.) I have been astounded at the current relevance in Trollope lately. Not only with politics & religion, but with relationships & family as well.
I mentioned earlier in this conversation that every generation seems to discount the lessons learned by the one before (and the one before and the one before....)
Alex wrote: "IYeah, I get the same sometimes. People just can't understand why I'm so into old stuff. ."It's the modern stuff that is stupid and boring. That's why we read old stuff
There has never been a better war story written than the Iliad --it's got everything, battles, spies, wine, women, song, athletic contests, love, you name it.
And there's never been a better travel story written than the Odyssey. It's spectacular.
Everyman wrote: "And there's never been a better Fixed that for ya.
...but seriously: yeah, the feeling I get cracking open a book that people have loved for generations...it's really powerful for me. My grandfather might have had this exact experience, y'know? And the further back you go, the stronger the feeling is; by the time you get to Which isn't to say those aren't valuable, of course. I have a friend who specializes in emerging literature - books by people you've never heard of - and I think that's really cool, although it's as opposite as one can get from my own taste. Just, y'know, more old stuff for me.
I read the Canterbury tales when I lived there as a student for three years, often used to walk through the cathedral grounds and into the cathedral itself to see Beckett's shrine. Now you have to pay to enter the cathedral gate to get to the cathedral which is a shame but the place is over run with tourists.
Everyman wrote: It's the modern stuff that is stupid and boring. That's why we read old stuffI don't think it's always like this. Modern literature can be boring, as old novels sometimes are. What I think important is not to stop on a surface level: I sometime find contemporary american writers difficoult to read; more difficoult than Trollope or Collins. But that doesn't mean they're always boring, or uninteresting. McCarthy for istance, read on little doses!, is astonishing to me ...
LauraT wrote: "Everyman wrote: It's the modern stuff that is stupid and boring. That's why we read old stuff
I don't think it's always like this. Modern literature can be boring, as old novels sometimes are. Wha..."
I couldn't agree more with you, Laura
I don't think it's always like this. Modern literature can be boring, as old novels sometimes are. Wha..."
I couldn't agree more with you, Laura
Victorians!
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What have you found to be some of the misconceptions that people have about Victorian fiction?
And would you have examples of certain books that prove the misconceptions wrong?
Christian.
My new book is out. Sadly it's not Victorian but I'd love someone to read it! Some books get lonely.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Glass-Book/dp/B0050DQH2W/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Glass-Book/dp/B0050DQH2W/