The History Book Club discussion
THE FIRST WORLD WAR
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3. HF - ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT - CHAPTER THREE (35 - 50)(05/16/2011 - 05/22/2011) ~ No spoilers, please
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For your convenience, here are some links to other threads related to our discussion:Table of Contents and Syllabus: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Introductory thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Glossary (spoiler thread) is a good place to post links that will help in understanding the personages discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Book-as-a-Whole (spoiler thread) is a great place to discuss spoilers if you've already read the book. You can also use this thread to check if something is a spoiler before posting on a weekly thread.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...
New recruits have arrived, and Kat treats them to one of his amazing scrounged meals. They are quartered in an adapted factory. Kat takes Haie and they somehow return with straw to sleep on. Despite being told that there is nothing in the area, Kat goes off to explore and returns with fresh bread and a bag of horse meat. We learn that senseless drilling isn't over--the whole company spent an hour on saluting drill because Tjaden didn't salute an officer just right. Kropp suggests that the heads of government should do the fighting. They debate what it is that causes Himmelstoss, and men like him, to be sadistic with authority. Tjaden shows up with the news that Himmelstoss is coming to the front.
Baumer recalls earlier adventures with Himmelstoss, such as when he tried to "cure" Tjaden of bed-wetting. The night before the friends were sent to the front, they lay in wait for Himmelstoss coming back from the pub. They grabbed him in the dark and basically beat him up. He never found out it was them.
Let's start with one of the obvious things to discuss this week. The beating of Himmelstoss by Baumer and his friends.Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot of ways it was fair. The harder question really is, was it right? What do you all think?
The beating of Himmelstoss was not in my view correct - he did not seem to be in a position to further antagonize the fellows and "two wrongs ...etc" should have prevailed.Was it fair is another question and since Himmelstoss could crawl/run away maybe it was OK.
The fact that he did not know it was our boys kept it from being justice - it was probably to Himmelstoss a random unlucky beating.
The interesting thing here is that our boys are now the experienced guys - let us see how this developes
I'm gonna say that the bigger thing to do would be to not have beaten him. Although, on pg. 33, "Himmeltoss ought to have been pleased;his saying that we should educate one another had borne fruit for himself."I wonder did this event humble Himmeltoss or make him more cruel? If it prevents him from making assumptions about people and acting cruelly towards other men (like the men that wet their beds) did these soldiers by beating him at his own game do a service for others? There are always consequences to our actions, is this not a consequence for Himmeltoss? By this it is fair b/c maybe he deserved it; these men did not pick on someone undeserving like Himmeltoss picked on the innocent. Though, Himmeltoss could have been trying to toughen them for real war situations, helping them survive, and maybe his acts were cruel/wrrong but maybe in his head his intentions were different. The pacifist in me says two wrongs do not make a right--and that mercy and killing people with kindness is the right way to go. Though this preserves one's inner self does it help a person physically survive? Or must everyone sacrifice themselves for the greater good?
Does anyone have a favorite character so far- or a character they would like to know more about? Mine is Kat..pg 28, "if for but one hour in a year or something eatable were to be had in some one place only, within that hour, as if moved by a vision, he would put on his cap, go out and walk directly there, and though following a compass, and find it".My reasons are simple, he reminds me of my husband. The joke around the house is I married him b/c even during the apocalypse he could feed/clothe the whole family in the middle of nowhere.
So Kat is Resourceful, Kropp the Thinker, and what about Baumer? Is Baumer the Feeler?
Elizabeth S wrote: "Let's start with one of the obvious things to discuss this week. The beating of Himmelstoss by Baumer and his friends.Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot of ways it was fair. The harder..."
Sometimes a bully needs to be hit back to stop the bullying. I hate violence in all forms, but people need to stand up for themselves when the circumstances warrant it.
Sera wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Let's start with one of the obvious things to discuss this week. The beating of Himmelstoss by Baumer and his friends.Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot of ways it..."
Sera, I have two sons. What I have noticed and I don't know if this just applies to boys or if it is the same as girls--- but when my oldest son (13) had another bully boy walk all over him, punch, kick him and he did nothing it got worse. When my older son stood up for himself one day, yelled very loudly and gave a forceful shove the bullying stopped. He got control back and the bully seemed to respect him more. At any rate it set some boundaries. I am sure the bully picked a new target...
I think there is a difference between bullying, aggressor, and those just pursuing to defend the innocent aggressively on some level anyways?
I guess in one sentence....I have to agree with you on your entire statement.
I think the question is: would these boys have done this had they not put through boot camp? What have they lost and gained in the process of becoming soldiers?Himmelstoss is doing his job: he is supposed to drill and be abusive to them to harden them for the realities of war and keep them alive while they go out to kill. I've not read the whole book, so I don't know if this char act has a sadistic streak to him that inspires him, but the beating scene does show the boys exhibiting a very sadistic set of behaviors. They get a lot of pleasure out of this violent act.
Good question Misty...If I think about it...
I think Himmeltoss then has taught them well..I think the boys have lost the desire to preserve their spirits and have lost parts of their inner selves in order to preserve their physical selves? Maybe? Like Baumer states pg 33, "Himmeltoss ought to have been pleased" in reference to their abuse of him.
I do not think they were very sadistic though...I think it was more an eye for an eye sort of thing. Himmeltoss humiliated them so therefore they humiliated Himmeltoss. I don't think they would have gotten pleasure from beating any other person just Himmeltoss?
This is really a tough one to know what is "right" and "fair." You all are making really good points. I agree that sometimes a physical bully needs to be slugged. But somehow waylaying Himmelstoss in the dark and beating him up as a group... it just seems different that slugging a bully back. I'm not sure if it is the gang feel, or being anonymous, or what. Personally, I like the part where the whole group does exactly what Himmelstoss tells them to do, but they do it very slowly. I think that was a much more effective revenge in the sense that it drove him crazy and taught him to respect them. Whereas the beating in the night was anonymous and more to satisfy all that pent-up anger.
Several of you have alluded to why Himmelstoss was so... cruel? sadistic? strict? There seem to be a variety of opinions out there. I don't think it was purely a matter of Himmelstoss thinking that was the best way to serve his country. I think some of it was power gone to his head. I think Himmelstoss honestly (and stupidly) thought that what he did to Tjaden was a good way to "cure" him. I picture it that Himmelstoss figured that he, as the sergeant, should be able to control his men and fix such "issues."
Autumn wrote: "Good question Misty...If I think about it...
I think Himmeltoss then has taught them well..I think the boys have lost the desire to preserve their spirits and have lost parts of their inner selves..."
That is the sad part, Autumn, and I think part of what Remarque is trying to say in the book. It isn't just that soldiers kill and are killed. They are changed, even just in training.
As far as your question about whether or not they would have enjoyed beating someone else, obviously Himmelstoss was the one they were looking for. But what if they found out the next morning that in the dark, somehow, they had got the wrong guy? I think Baumer, at least, would have felt some regret. But some of them might have just felt, "Oops, well it was still fun." Maybe there were varying degrees of sadism? (Weird thought.)
Elizabeth S wrote: "Autumn wrote: "Good question Misty...If I think about it...
I think Himmeltoss then has taught them well..I think the boys have lost the desire to preserve their spirits and have lost parts of the..."
Yes it is very sad! I don't always articulate what I really want too. I meant if Himmeltoss wanted to change them, he did well...however I do not agree with what Himmeltoss did to the men. It is sad, sick and wrong...pg. 30 talks about Himmeltoss and that authority has gone to his head...they compare a dog snapping at a piece of meat, and if you give a man authority he snaps at it too.
Like the book stated, pg 30, "the army is based on that. One man always has power over another". I do not condone this. I have more compassion for the other men than Himmeltoss. They were innocent when they came to him, he wasn't when he was walking down the alley. However, if it was the wrong man, and some of them still enjoyed beating the wrong man, then that is very sad, heart-wrenching in fact that they have lost that much of themselves, and have truly adapted a certain degree of sadism that Himmeltoss wanted them too. It would be cool if they rose above this, denying all that was done to them by Himmeltoss. Then they would truly triumph over him. Like I said the bigger thing to do would have been not to have beaten him in the alley anyway. But I do understand what led them to want too. Now to be ok beating the wrong man? I have a hard time understanding that but I know sadly it's because they've been changed somehow.
I think I got you now, Autumn. And it sounds like we are on the same page. Beating Himmelstoss wasn't exactly right, but who am I to judge men who were becoming what they were trained to become?
Autumn wrote: "Does anyone have a favorite character so far- or a character they would like to know more about? Mine is Kat..pg 28, "if for but one hour in a year or something eatable were to be had in some one place only, within that hour, as if moved by a vision, he would put on his cap, go out and walk directly there, and though following a compass, and find it".My reasons are simple, he reminds me of my husband. The joke around the house is I married him b/c even during the apocalypse he could feed/clothe the whole family in the middle of nowhere.
So Kat is Resourceful, Kropp the Thinker, and what about Baumer? Is Baumer the Feeler? "
Good choice, Autumn. I'm having a hard time picking one over another, partly because their personalities kinda run together at times. I ended up making myself a chart, mostly based on the initial intros in Chapter 1.
Four guys from the same class, all 19:
Kropp - lance corporal, clearest thinker
Muller - kept school textbooks, mumbles physics, gets the boots
Leer - full beard, likes officers' girls
Baumer - the writer
Others in the group:
Tjaden - same age, locksmith, big eater but thin
Haie Westhus - same age, peat-digger, big fists
Detering - peasant, farmer, has a wife
Kat - leader of the group, cunning and hard-bitten, 40
Wow, did I read that right in Chapter 1 that Kat is that much older than the others? We haven't seen much of Detering and Leer so far, have we?
As far as someone to want to know better, I think I'll pick Haie Westhus at this point. I picture him as one of those big, tough men who can be real teddy-bears inside. He seems fiercely loyal to his comrades. Because he isn't one of Baumer's classmates, we don't know as much about about his background other than that he was a peat-digger.
Elizabeth S, I think Westhus is a good choice too. I have the feeling he is a teddy bear too. I like Detering also. Both seem like nice men though we don't know that much about them.Thanks for the list-a great idea-it really helps picture them and their personalities I think. :)
Oh and yes I saw too that Kat is 40! I guess he has the most experience-perhaps this is why he is hard bitten and so resourceful- he has had practice in surviving?
Autumn wrote: "Oh and yes I saw too that Kat is 40! I guess he has the most experience-perhaps this is why he is hard bitten and so resourceful- he has had practice in surviving?"And he has so much more past to wonder about. Was he ever married? Did he have children? What kind of job(s) did he have? Why does he fit in so well with the boys half his age? At least for me, Kat doesn't seem older at all. Maybe a little more experienced, but not that much.
I agree Elizabeth S. He does seem the same age as the rest of the men! If I had to guess I'd say he could be a solitary explorer type? Back at home, he camped alone with virtually nothing a lot :)- when I am reading about him I pictureBear Grylls
But that he is the youngest of a huge family so it makes him seem as young as the rest? LOL :)I have no idea :). This is all from my imagination. The men's backgrounds interest me-I hope it is explored further in the rest of the chapters.
I like that background story, works for me! Sounds like we're starting to create fanfic for All Quiet. LOL
Remember in the first chapter when Kat says, "It would not be such a bad war if only one could get a little more sleep" (page 2)? I was thinking back to that when Baumer tells us in this chapter that they've found some straw to sleep on, and he says, "Now we might sleep if we weren't so terribly hungry" (page 37). Which is more important, sleep or food? Really, both are basic essentials.
Elizabeth S wrote: "Remember in the first chapter when Kat says, "It would not be such a bad war if only one could get a little more sleep" (page 2)? I was thinking back to that when Baumer tells us in this chapter t..."Oh the possibilites for fanfiction :)
As for the second question just going on personal preference I would say sleep before food. I get loopy without sleep and in a situation such as they are in they have to have their wits about them. Being hungry stinks and I love food...but hunger pains will subside for moments?
Mod
I understand where you are coming from Autumn, a tough call.
From my perspective based upon what Baumer is stating: He can't sleep because they are hungry....so for him I guess he needs desperately food first otherwise he cannot get the other. Does that make any sense?
I would prefer to sleep so that I didn't have to think about being so hungry :)
Sera wrote: "I would prefer to sleep so that I didn't have to think about being so hungry :)"I think I agree. Assuming that I'm not too hungry to fall asleep, that is.
It is tough to decide, though. Kinda like asking if you'd rather have your right leg or your left leg. Really, you'd rather have both.
Sera wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Let's start with one of the obvious things to discuss this week. The beating of Himmelstoss by Baumer and his friends.
Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot of ways it..."
Isn't this almost the same as asking if war is justified?
Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot of ways it..."
Isn't this almost the same as asking if war is justified?
Genevieve wrote: "...Isn't this almost the same as asking if war is justified? "Oh, yes. I'm glad you are going through these old threads, Genevieve. You are approaching things from a whole new perspective and giving me a lot to think about.
Genevieve wrote: "Sera wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Let's start with one of the obvious things to discuss this week. The beating of Himmelstoss by Baumer and his friends.Was it fair? Well, I can see that in a lot..."
I think that a "beating" where the beatee walks away after he personally abused the individual beaters is so far from a war between societies that it is not a basis to ask if war is justified and is not the same thing.
IIRC, the beating was administered brutally. Himmelstoss was a petty tyrant who frustrated the men, but I don't think he deserved this treatment. I agree that it shows how the boys are changing, even before they see battle. OR perhaps it is meant to show us that they had a bellicose side even before they enter battle? Maybe this incident is meant to make us think a bit about the human propensity to violence and revenge. (And IMHO, that relates very much to issues of war!)
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
All Quiet on the Western Front (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
Bear Grylls (other topics)Erich Maria Remarque (other topics)
This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week 3:
Week 3, May 16-22: Chapter 3 (pages 35-50)
This is proving to be a great discussion of World War I, different perspectives on a soldier who is portrayed to actually have served in the German army as well as the effects of war and suffering and despair on all sides. The reading is fairly quick, but there is a lot to think about, share, and learn.
This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection. Most weekly assignments are fairly short, so it should be pretty easy to catch-up if you are ever behind. Feel free to comment on any of the weekly threads that have been opened (however please avoid spoilers).
This book was kicked off May 2nd. This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book. We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.
We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. Usually the book can also be obtained at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible. NOTE: I've been told that this book is NOT available on Kindle. If anyone finds out differently, please let us all know. Thanks.
Thanks to all who read and share their thoughts, ideas, and knowledge with the rest of the group.
This thread is open for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.