Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
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Week 4 - through chapter 86
But just "a bit."
When I start to doze off, I figure it's time to come down from the masthead for a spell.
When I start to doze off, I figure it's time to come down from the masthead for a spell.
No skimming. Arrr. Some of the whale information is more than just whale information. For example this, from Ch. 80, The Nut:It is plain, then, that phrenologically the head of this Leviathan, in the creature's living intact state, is an entire delusion. As for his true brain, you can then see no indications of it, nor feel any. The whale, like all things that are mighty, wears a false brow to the common world.
Could this be about anyone else we know?
Chapter 68, The Blanket
"...the blood of a Polar whale is warmer than that of a Borneo negro in summer" (325).
Whales Weep Not!
by D. H. Lawrence
They say the sea is cold, but the sea contains
the hottest blood of all
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/pr...
"...the blood of a Polar whale is warmer than that of a Borneo negro in summer" (325).
Whales Weep Not!
by D. H. Lawrence
They say the sea is cold, but the sea contains
the hottest blood of all
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/pr...
Chapter 67, Cutting In
This chapter floored me on the size of the whale. To careen the ship on her side.
When I was growing up, we usually had one or two head of cattle, which we would butcher in the fall; sometimes a deer. The body would stretch from the ceiling to the floor. And then I think of a cow or bull or deer compared to a whale. The work that processing a whale would require. The engineering skills to maneuver the body to the ship.
This chapter floored me on the size of the whale. To careen the ship on her side.
When I was growing up, we usually had one or two head of cattle, which we would butcher in the fall; sometimes a deer. The body would stretch from the ceiling to the floor. And then I think of a cow or bull or deer compared to a whale. The work that processing a whale would require. The engineering skills to maneuver the body to the ship.
Adelle wrote: "BWhen I start to doze off, I figure it's time to come down from the masthead for a spell. ."Definitely. Going to sleep in the masthead could be a very unhealthy thing to do. Not to mention that you might miss spotting a whale (or a subtle clue in the book).
Thomas wrote: "No skimming. Arrr. Some of the whale information is more than just whale information. For example this, from Ch. 80, The Nut:
It is plain, then, that phrenologically the head of this Leviathan, in..."
LOL. I'm sorry, I picturing some...bare(? I think this is the spelling I want) with me on the wording...some phrenologosist...carefully running his hands over the whale's head, like they would do for people to "read" them.
Mmmm... still, there we are with another fake form...what appears to be [a brow] is not. Argg right back at you. Ok. I'll read the details.
It is plain, then, that phrenologically the head of this Leviathan, in..."
LOL. I'm sorry, I picturing some...bare(? I think this is the spelling I want) with me on the wording...some phrenologosist...carefully running his hands over the whale's head, like they would do for people to "read" them.
Mmmm... still, there we are with another fake form...what appears to be [a brow] is not. Argg right back at you. Ok. I'll read the details.
I'm finding this whaling info useful ;. I was watching a TV quiz with my family and their was a question about (historical) whaling. I could go into quite some detail. My family were astounded when I got the question right and when the quiz master gave the info I given to the last iota. (Which proves that
was pretty spot on) Don't know whether the family now think that I am blood thirsty, hyper carnivorous or what. But, they were quite impressed
I love all the information about whales and whaling; I find it fascinating. My way of handling it when it does get to be too much is to take a break from the book altogether; I find I'm soon (maybe a day later, never very long) eager to get back and plunge back into it. And the flashes of humor in even the driest sections also keep me alert.
But my overall thought is that these "longueurs", as I've heard such sections called, interspersed with the action chapters, are spaced very purposefully. The reader is put into the position of the whalemen, who are forced to spent the bulk of their time waiting, waiting, waiting for those times of intense action. A whaling trip is a long, long voyage, and apparently, sometimes months on end can pass without any action. That same feeling is conveyed very well by the structure of the book, I think.
And I love it when, during a descriptive passage of either whale anatomy or the workings of the whaleboats, Ishmael/Melville points out: "You're going to need this information later on ..." "Yay!" I think. "Thanks, Ish!" He's doing a good job of priming the pumps ... but we have to be patient, because, after all, in the whole wide world, we're looking for ONE CREATURE .... In the meantime, what better way to spend our time than in learning about the wondrous creation that is the whale? And about the antonishing and frightening feats of the men who go after them?
But my overall thought is that these "longueurs", as I've heard such sections called, interspersed with the action chapters, are spaced very purposefully. The reader is put into the position of the whalemen, who are forced to spent the bulk of their time waiting, waiting, waiting for those times of intense action. A whaling trip is a long, long voyage, and apparently, sometimes months on end can pass without any action. That same feeling is conveyed very well by the structure of the book, I think.
And I love it when, during a descriptive passage of either whale anatomy or the workings of the whaleboats, Ishmael/Melville points out: "You're going to need this information later on ..." "Yay!" I think. "Thanks, Ish!" He's doing a good job of priming the pumps ... but we have to be patient, because, after all, in the whole wide world, we're looking for ONE CREATURE .... In the meantime, what better way to spend our time than in learning about the wondrous creation that is the whale? And about the antonishing and frightening feats of the men who go after them?
Adelle wrote: "Mmmm... still, there we are with another fake form...what appears to be [a brow] is not. Argg right back at you. Ok. I'll read the details."
Yeah, do read them. Even if you don't, I bet you'll actually WANT to read them on your second time through the book. I don't know how this happens, but it does. :-)
Yeah, do read them. Even if you don't, I bet you'll actually WANT to read them on your second time through the book. I don't know how this happens, but it does. :-)
Vikz wrote: "I'm finding this whaling info useful ;. I was watching a TV quiz with my family and their was a question about (historical) whaling. I could go into quite some detail. My family were astounded wh..."
How fun for you!
How fun for you!
M wrote: "I love all the information about whales and whaling; I find it fascinating. My way of handling it when it does get to be too much is to take a break from the book altogether; I find I'm soon (maybe..."
I love that analogy...that the waiting, waiting, times help put us in touch with the slow times on the whalers...getting drozy on the masthead...but knowing it's important to the success of the voyage to watch for "spouts"...
Nice.
I love that analogy...that the waiting, waiting, times help put us in touch with the slow times on the whalers...getting drozy on the masthead...but knowing it's important to the success of the voyage to watch for "spouts"...
Nice.
Chapter 69, The Funeral
G
What a bromide against traditions!....well...unexamined traditions;and orthodoxy...which, I think means unexamined beliefs.
I had no idea what Cock-Lane referred to. Had to look it up.
Apparently, Cock-Lane was frequently referenced in the literature of the day. Dickens, etc.
I'm not sure what point Ishmael is making.
The "ghost" was a fraud.
Supposedly, at the time, many religious people liked to hear of ghosts as it proved an afterlife.
Johnson was a Christian.
Yet, he wanted proofs and helped to discredit the story of the haunting.
Is he saying Johnson wasn't deep enough to believe?
The last paragraph in this chapter leaves me wondering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_Lan...
G
What a bromide against traditions!....well...unexamined traditions;and orthodoxy...which, I think means unexamined beliefs.
I had no idea what Cock-Lane referred to. Had to look it up.
Apparently, Cock-Lane was frequently referenced in the literature of the day. Dickens, etc.
I'm not sure what point Ishmael is making.
The "ghost" was a fraud.
Supposedly, at the time, many religious people liked to hear of ghosts as it proved an afterlife.
Johnson was a Christian.
Yet, he wanted proofs and helped to discredit the story of the haunting.
Is he saying Johnson wasn't deep enough to believe?
The last paragraph in this chapter leaves me wondering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_Lan...
Everyman wrote: "Okay, I am learning more about whales and their killing than I really thought I needed to know. The ratio of "whale book" to "adventure tale" seems to be shifting significantly from the latter to ..."I read every word the first time I read MD but I confess to getting a little glassy-eyed in the "whale" chapters now.
Chapter 70, "The Sphynx" ... mere musings ...
The chapter title is another reference to pyramids. Or, close to pyramids. Mystery. And possibly another example of contradiction contained within a single symbol.
From wikipedia. “The sphinx, in Greek tradition, has the haunches of a lion, the wings of a great bird, and the face and breast of a woman. She is treacherous and merciless: those who cannot answer her riddle suffer a fate typical in such mythological stories: they are gobbled up whole and raw, eaten by this ravenous monster.
BUT... the Egyptian sphinx was viewed as benevolent in contrast to the malevolent Greek version”
Which sphynx was Melville referencing??
{Aside: I thought of Moby Dick this morning when I was reminded of the mottled white body of the whale, the ambiguity, when I listened to President Obama's speech being analyzed from the left and from the right. Open to interpretation.}
Mmmm...then I remembered that Moby Dick seemed to contain references to Freemasonry, so, again, from wikipedia,
"Sphinx adopted as an emblem in Masonic architecture
The sphinx image also has been adopted into Masonic architecture. Among the Egyptians, sphinxes were placed at the entrance of the temple to guard the mysteries, by warning those who penetrated within, that they should conceal a knowledge of them from the uninitiated. Champollion says that the sphinx became successively the symbol of each of the gods, by which Portal suggests that the priests intended to express the idea that all the gods were hidden from the people, and that the knowledge of them, guarded in the sanctuaries, was revealed to the initiates only."
Oh, another interesting contradiction is that the head of the sphynx in Egypt is too small for the body/ and here we read that the head of the whale (at 1/3 of the body) would almost seem too large.
Mmmm....yes. Going with Bill's supposition (and I am)...extending it... if/when Ahab masters Moby Dick, then he can demand answers of God, the knowledge known only to initiates will be Ahab's.
Intriguing opening sentence:
"It should not have been omitted that previous to completely stripping the body of the leviathan, he was beheaded" (327).
~"Oh, I should have told you, but I forgot..."
And just how does one forget something like beheading a giant sperm whale?
???Perhaps making the point that in Ahab's story [in anyone's story] significant, unforgettable information is indeed forgotten. Repressed????
I mean, it seems to be a very significant scene in which Ahab is there with the head.
Oh! Holofernes/Judith. I had to google. It's Biblical. From the Book of Judith. She cuts off the head of the enemy general (mmm, I think he was cast as an evil general) Holofernes.
So everyone else goes to lunch and Ahab is alone with the whale's head. "Speak, thou vast and veranable head," muttered Ahab, "....yet here and there lookest horay with mosses" (328).
I give myself points here. I did remember that just prior to Moby Dick, that Melville had written that essay so admiring of Hawthorne, and when I researched this, yes, The term "mosses" alludes to Melville's review "Hawthorne and His Mosses" for Hawthorne's collection of stories Mosses from an Old Manse; (as you may or may not have noticed, the book itself is dedicated to Hawthorne)
Ahab standing there, talking to the head... there's perhaps no overly strong connection....but what came to my mind...a little with the verbage...and somehow with the setting...deserted...Ahab perhaps pondering death..."and untold hopes and anchors rot" ... the possible presence of a ghost [in Hamlet and ... from the closing of chapter 69...perhaps even in Moby Dick???]
Anyway...Hamlet came to mind...the scene in which he is talking to Yorick's skull.
I had to wonder what could be more midnightier than midnight...
and yet...dark, dark, dark...ominous...
"from the midnight deck; for hours he fell into the deeper midnight of the insatiate maw"
How far into darkness in Ahab going to fall? And Ahab, too..."insatiate" I have to agree with earlier posters....when/should/if Ahab finds and kills Moby Dick, Ahab will still not be satisfied.
Ahab, on hearing the cry from the masthead {I know I'm repeating myself....but I do keep seeing the masthead as a spiritual lookout}
"That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man" (329). And what is this but Ahab admitted that he is NOT a better man? And I don't think that he wants to be [a better man].
Again, as a fellow-poster (Rosemary???) had pointed out, those final paragraphs are highly significant.
"Better and better, man." {Mmmm....Perhaps there is just a CHANCE than Ahab will become a better and better man.}
"Would now St. Paul would come along that way, and to my breezelessness bring his breeze!"
Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was referring to the sheer volume of words that Paul wrote...perhaps something along the lines that Paul was a blowhard/parrelling the breeze.
or, (2) Since Paul had the revelation that changed his life, that made him into a better man [at least from the Christian perspective], perhaps Ahab was desiring that he, Ahab, too, might change his life and become a "better and better man"
"Analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives on matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind" (329).
Is this not Ishmael/Melville advising us to look for analogies? Yeah, that's what I'm going with.
The chapter title is another reference to pyramids. Or, close to pyramids. Mystery. And possibly another example of contradiction contained within a single symbol.
From wikipedia. “The sphinx, in Greek tradition, has the haunches of a lion, the wings of a great bird, and the face and breast of a woman. She is treacherous and merciless: those who cannot answer her riddle suffer a fate typical in such mythological stories: they are gobbled up whole and raw, eaten by this ravenous monster.
BUT... the Egyptian sphinx was viewed as benevolent in contrast to the malevolent Greek version”
Which sphynx was Melville referencing??
{Aside: I thought of Moby Dick this morning when I was reminded of the mottled white body of the whale, the ambiguity, when I listened to President Obama's speech being analyzed from the left and from the right. Open to interpretation.}
Mmmm...then I remembered that Moby Dick seemed to contain references to Freemasonry, so, again, from wikipedia,
"Sphinx adopted as an emblem in Masonic architecture
The sphinx image also has been adopted into Masonic architecture. Among the Egyptians, sphinxes were placed at the entrance of the temple to guard the mysteries, by warning those who penetrated within, that they should conceal a knowledge of them from the uninitiated. Champollion says that the sphinx became successively the symbol of each of the gods, by which Portal suggests that the priests intended to express the idea that all the gods were hidden from the people, and that the knowledge of them, guarded in the sanctuaries, was revealed to the initiates only."
Oh, another interesting contradiction is that the head of the sphynx in Egypt is too small for the body/ and here we read that the head of the whale (at 1/3 of the body) would almost seem too large.
Mmmm....yes. Going with Bill's supposition (and I am)...extending it... if/when Ahab masters Moby Dick, then he can demand answers of God, the knowledge known only to initiates will be Ahab's.
Intriguing opening sentence:
"It should not have been omitted that previous to completely stripping the body of the leviathan, he was beheaded" (327).
~"Oh, I should have told you, but I forgot..."
And just how does one forget something like beheading a giant sperm whale?
???Perhaps making the point that in Ahab's story [in anyone's story] significant, unforgettable information is indeed forgotten. Repressed????
I mean, it seems to be a very significant scene in which Ahab is there with the head.
Oh! Holofernes/Judith. I had to google. It's Biblical. From the Book of Judith. She cuts off the head of the enemy general (mmm, I think he was cast as an evil general) Holofernes.
So everyone else goes to lunch and Ahab is alone with the whale's head. "Speak, thou vast and veranable head," muttered Ahab, "....yet here and there lookest horay with mosses" (328).
I give myself points here. I did remember that just prior to Moby Dick, that Melville had written that essay so admiring of Hawthorne, and when I researched this, yes, The term "mosses" alludes to Melville's review "Hawthorne and His Mosses" for Hawthorne's collection of stories Mosses from an Old Manse; (as you may or may not have noticed, the book itself is dedicated to Hawthorne)
Ahab standing there, talking to the head... there's perhaps no overly strong connection....but what came to my mind...a little with the verbage...and somehow with the setting...deserted...Ahab perhaps pondering death..."and untold hopes and anchors rot" ... the possible presence of a ghost [in Hamlet and ... from the closing of chapter 69...perhaps even in Moby Dick???]
Anyway...Hamlet came to mind...the scene in which he is talking to Yorick's skull.
I had to wonder what could be more midnightier than midnight...
and yet...dark, dark, dark...ominous...
"from the midnight deck; for hours he fell into the deeper midnight of the insatiate maw"
How far into darkness in Ahab going to fall? And Ahab, too..."insatiate" I have to agree with earlier posters....when/should/if Ahab finds and kills Moby Dick, Ahab will still not be satisfied.
Ahab, on hearing the cry from the masthead {I know I'm repeating myself....but I do keep seeing the masthead as a spiritual lookout}
"That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man" (329). And what is this but Ahab admitted that he is NOT a better man? And I don't think that he wants to be [a better man].
Again, as a fellow-poster (Rosemary???) had pointed out, those final paragraphs are highly significant.
"Better and better, man." {Mmmm....Perhaps there is just a CHANCE than Ahab will become a better and better man.}
"Would now St. Paul would come along that way, and to my breezelessness bring his breeze!"
Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was referring to the sheer volume of words that Paul wrote...perhaps something along the lines that Paul was a blowhard/parrelling the breeze.
or, (2) Since Paul had the revelation that changed his life, that made him into a better man [at least from the Christian perspective], perhaps Ahab was desiring that he, Ahab, too, might change his life and become a "better and better man"
"Analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives on matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind" (329).
Is this not Ishmael/Melville advising us to look for analogies? Yeah, that's what I'm going with.
Adelle wrote: "Would now St. Paul would come along that way, and to my breezelessness bring his breeze!" Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was referring to the sheer volume of words that Paul wrote...perhaps something along the lines that Paul was a blowhard/parrelling the breeze.
or, (2) Since Paul had the revelation that changed his life, that made him into a better man [at least from the Christian perspective], perhaps Ahab was desiring that he, Ahab, too, might change his life and become a "better and better man"
"Analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives on matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind" (329).
Breeziness perhaps refers to inspiration, the breath of God, that enabled Paul to write his epistles truthfully. Is Ahab wanting his words or thoughts to be inspired or authenticated by some god?
Laurele wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Would now St. Paul would come along that way, and to my breezelessness bring his breeze!"
Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was re..."
Laurele...yes, that's a great insight. I hadn't thought of that, but, yes, in the movie Indiana Jones...one of the clues was "the breath of God"
I think he's divided. The core of Ahab...mmm...well, at least the Ahab who has seemed to be walking the earth all these years is, I think, wanting to be held back, to be made a better man, thru the power of God.....(mmmmm....? Ahab's true core....I'm not sure yet what that is. but the Ahab which is in charge of Ahab during his waking hours....THAT Ahab doesn't need and doesn't want God.
Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was re..."
Laurele...yes, that's a great insight. I hadn't thought of that, but, yes, in the movie Indiana Jones...one of the clues was "the breath of God"
I think he's divided. The core of Ahab...mmm...well, at least the Ahab who has seemed to be walking the earth all these years is, I think, wanting to be held back, to be made a better man, thru the power of God.....(mmmmm....? Ahab's true core....I'm not sure yet what that is. but the Ahab which is in charge of Ahab during his waking hours....THAT Ahab doesn't need and doesn't want God.
My thought is more the idea that Ahab is usurping the power of God (trying to, I should say).
Laurele wrote: "My thought is more the idea that Ahab is usurping the power of God (trying to, I should say)."
Yes, I can understood how that could be a valid interpretation. That the line that Ahab speaks might have been spoken cynically: "That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man.--Where away?" (I choose to read it as though it were spoken pensively...which a little yearning...)
But, like the crew, I'm with Ahab. So I'm looking for whatever clues might support my hope (lol, my hope is not "untold") is that Ahab will find "himself" and hopefully his God before this is all through.
Yes, I can understood how that could be a valid interpretation. That the line that Ahab speaks might have been spoken cynically: "That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man.--Where away?" (I choose to read it as though it were spoken pensively...which a little yearning...)
But, like the crew, I'm with Ahab. So I'm looking for whatever clues might support my hope (lol, my hope is not "untold") is that Ahab will find "himself" and hopefully his God before this is all through.
Ha. Finished Chapter 71, "The Jeroboam's Story"
Lions, and tigers, and bears...Oh, my! lol
I'm going to have to sleep on this chapter!
Lions, and tigers, and bears...Oh, my! lol
I'm going to have to sleep on this chapter!
Adelle wrote: "Chapter 70, "The Sphynx" ... mere musings ..."Analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives on matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind" (329).
Is this not Ishmael/Melville advising us to look for analogies? Yeah, that's what I'm going with. "
I think the analogy is swinging there right in front of us in this chapter -- the head, the great pyramid, the sphinx that knows the secret of the depths but will not speak. The head has seen enough to "make an infidel of Abraham", and later on diving into the head to retrieve its contents will nearly kill Tashtego. Why is the head so mysterious, so dangerous, and why does it trouble Ahab so much? The "thunder clouds" sweep aside from his brow when his attention is drawn away from the whale's head to the Jeroboam.
"That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man." St. Paul knew a few things about conversion, so the allusion seems apt, but the "almost" is crucial for Ahab, I think. The breeze that Paul brought was the spirit of salvation, but the breeze Ahab is looking for is news of the white whale.
Thomas wrote: "Why is the head so mysterious, so dangerous, and why does it trouble Ahab so much?"
I wish I knew. ??? ??????
There IS that head. (Heads at the beginning of the book, too. Queequeg had one. I wonder what that might mean.)
But in this chapter, that very large, impossible to miss head. And the ship is creaking and leaning with the weight of it. And the ship is our voyage thru life. Should winds too strong or waves too rough hit us while the head is still being processed, it's very likely the ship would capsize and sink.
Ahab is looking for answers.
Metaphorically, the sea contain answers,
& the deep sea contains answers to the deep questions.
Melville struggles with religion/rejects orthodoxy/struggles with the religious question.
Melville: "I love all men who dive."
Ahab is looking for the answers to the deep questions.
Therefore, Melville loves Ahab.
Ahab, to the whale's head, "tell us" [interesting word choice; is Ahab schizophrenic? divided? "tell us the secret thing that is in thee"
"Of all divers, thou hast dived the deepest"
"Has moved amid the world's foundations"/God to Job: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
Ahab ponders:
It is impossible to split the planets.
It is impossible to make an infidel of Abraham.
And, it is impossible to get the answers Ahab is looking for from a whale.
This, I think, is a cusp-moment for Ahab.
Alone on the deck, he comes ever so near to realizing the futility of his mad quest. It is, I think, a point at which he could have pulled back into non-delusion.
But at that moment...Fate? Chance?
"Sail ho!" he heard. "Aye? [He's waking out of his revery. His obsession has regained control. Ahab, "suddenly erecting himself." Had he been prostrating himself?]
"...tell US..." [O Nature, and O soul of man]
"That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man."
I think both aspects of Ahab speak.
His soul is looking for salvation;
His nature is looking for news of the white whale.
I wish I knew. ??? ??????
There IS that head. (Heads at the beginning of the book, too. Queequeg had one. I wonder what that might mean.)
But in this chapter, that very large, impossible to miss head. And the ship is creaking and leaning with the weight of it. And the ship is our voyage thru life. Should winds too strong or waves too rough hit us while the head is still being processed, it's very likely the ship would capsize and sink.
Ahab is looking for answers.
Metaphorically, the sea contain answers,
& the deep sea contains answers to the deep questions.
Melville struggles with religion/rejects orthodoxy/struggles with the religious question.
Melville: "I love all men who dive."
Ahab is looking for the answers to the deep questions.
Therefore, Melville loves Ahab.
Ahab, to the whale's head, "tell us" [interesting word choice; is Ahab schizophrenic? divided? "tell us the secret thing that is in thee"
"Of all divers, thou hast dived the deepest"
"Has moved amid the world's foundations"/God to Job: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
Ahab ponders:
It is impossible to split the planets.
It is impossible to make an infidel of Abraham.
And, it is impossible to get the answers Ahab is looking for from a whale.
This, I think, is a cusp-moment for Ahab.
Alone on the deck, he comes ever so near to realizing the futility of his mad quest. It is, I think, a point at which he could have pulled back into non-delusion.
But at that moment...Fate? Chance?
"Sail ho!" he heard. "Aye? [He's waking out of his revery. His obsession has regained control. Ahab, "suddenly erecting himself." Had he been prostrating himself?]
"...tell US..." [O Nature, and O soul of man]
"That lively cry upon this deadly calm might almost convert a better man."
I think both aspects of Ahab speak.
His soul is looking for salvation;
His nature is looking for news of the white whale.
What do you think about Fedellah? What do you think he represents? Do you agree with Flack that he is the devil? What do you make of the quiet paranoia that surrounds him?
Vikz wrote: "What do you think about Fedellah? What do you think he represents? Do you agree with Flack that he is the devil? What do you make of the quiet paranoia that surrounds him?"
Vikz...I'm just thru chapter 71...is there more sightings of Fedellah in chapters 72 and on?
(leaving for the day. what about Fedellah's hair wrapped into that turban shape...mmm...I like that line : " the quiet paranoia that surrounds him")
Vikz...I'm just thru chapter 71...is there more sightings of Fedellah in chapters 72 and on?
(leaving for the day. what about Fedellah's hair wrapped into that turban shape...mmm...I like that line : " the quiet paranoia that surrounds him")
Chapter 71, "The Jerobaum's Story"
the word "scaramouch"---from wikipedia:
Inspired by Scaramouche, the band Queen's song "Bohemian Rhapsody" has these lyrics:
I see a little silhouetto of a man
Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango?
Thunderbolt and lightning, very very frightening me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaramouche
the word "scaramouch"---from wikipedia:
Inspired by Scaramouche, the band Queen's song "Bohemian Rhapsody" has these lyrics:
I see a little silhouetto of a man
Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango?
Thunderbolt and lightning, very very frightening me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaramouche
Chapter 71, “The Jeroboam’s Story”
A very aptly titled chapter.
This is basically just a summary.
Biblically, “The Lord sent a prophet to warn Jeroboam to turn away from his evil ways. Jeroboam's refusal eventually resulted in the destruction of his kingdom and his family.” Jeroboam is killed by the *plague. Probably leprosy. (Laurele had posted in week 3 Post 15: “Leprosy, a symbol of sin in the Bible, turns the skin white.”) from AboutBibleProphecy.com
There’s a self-proclaimed prophet on board the Jeroboam. One who looked like a prophet. “Pulling an oar in the Jerobaom’s boat, was a man of sinugular appearance, even in that wild whaling life where individual notabliites make up all totalities” (330).
He’s come from a Shaker community. Shakers believed in ongoing revelation through visions and spiritual inspiration.
He’s calling himself Gabriel. Biblically, Gabriel is the angel of judgment. This self-named Gabriel used to carry a vial that he claimed was the 7th vial. Biblically, the 7th vial is the precursor to The Day of Judgment. *He claims he has the power over plague. The ship of the Jeroboam has some sort of malady or possible plague.
This “Gabriel” had warned the crew of the Jeroboam not to go after Moby Dick. He tries to warn Ahab not to go after Moby Dick, but is hindered when a “wave shot the boat far ahead,” and “again the boat tore ahead as if dragged by **fiends.” (333).
The mate who pressed to go after Moby Dick nonetheless…was killed. “Gabriel” pronounces the mate a blasphemer and implies that Ahab [who has been called a blasphemer by Starbuck] will meet the same fate. A prophet warning Ahab to change his evil ways or face his Day of Judgment?
Supposition:
“Hand in hand, ship and breeze blew on; but the breeze came faster than the ship, and soon the Pequod began to rock” (329).
Going with the ending of chapter 70, going with the breeze being the breathe of God, going with this chapter beginning with a continuation of the last part of the last chapter…assuming that Ahab had a moment in which he was open to converting to “a better man.” At such a moment, the ship and God [the breeze] were traveling in harmony.
But Ahab turns from this moment and turns again fully to pursuing Moby Dick…and the breeze [the breath of God] came faster…and God shows his displeasure/”and soon the Pequod began to rock” (329).
God is sending a prophet to warn Ahab. {I’ve decided to believe in “Gabriel” as a valid prophet in this story.} Captain Mayhew rows a boat out towards the Pequod.
{There was a Jonathon Mayhew 1720-1766. He preached the strict unity of God, the subordinate nature of Christ, and salvation by character.}
“Gabriel” is in the boat with Mayhew. “Gabriel” attempts to warn Ahab…however, his attempts are disrupted by **fiends (see above).
Right now, since for the time being I’m going with “Gabriel” being valid, then have to go also with Moby Dick being an agent of God. Harry Macey, blasphemous mate, defier of warning of God’s prophet, goes after Moby Dick. “Gabriel” climbs the masthead.
And the Judgment of the Lord was against him [Macey]…
And “lo! [very biblical]
a broad white shadow rose from the sea [I’m reading “rose” as traveling upward in a religious sense];
by it’s quick, fanning motion, temporarily taking the breath out of the bodies of the oarsmen. [Moby Dick, acting on God’s behalf, takes the breath [life] out of the oarsmen, thus creating the conditions necessary to render punishment to Macey.]
Next instant, the luckless mate….was smitten bodily into the air…[smitten/smote; very biblical]
…but not a hair of any oarsman head” was harmed” (333). [This reads eerily like Luke 21:18, “But not a hair of your head shall perish.”]
A very aptly titled chapter.
This is basically just a summary.
Biblically, “The Lord sent a prophet to warn Jeroboam to turn away from his evil ways. Jeroboam's refusal eventually resulted in the destruction of his kingdom and his family.” Jeroboam is killed by the *plague. Probably leprosy. (Laurele had posted in week 3 Post 15: “Leprosy, a symbol of sin in the Bible, turns the skin white.”) from AboutBibleProphecy.com
There’s a self-proclaimed prophet on board the Jeroboam. One who looked like a prophet. “Pulling an oar in the Jerobaom’s boat, was a man of sinugular appearance, even in that wild whaling life where individual notabliites make up all totalities” (330).
He’s come from a Shaker community. Shakers believed in ongoing revelation through visions and spiritual inspiration.
He’s calling himself Gabriel. Biblically, Gabriel is the angel of judgment. This self-named Gabriel used to carry a vial that he claimed was the 7th vial. Biblically, the 7th vial is the precursor to The Day of Judgment. *He claims he has the power over plague. The ship of the Jeroboam has some sort of malady or possible plague.
This “Gabriel” had warned the crew of the Jeroboam not to go after Moby Dick. He tries to warn Ahab not to go after Moby Dick, but is hindered when a “wave shot the boat far ahead,” and “again the boat tore ahead as if dragged by **fiends.” (333).
The mate who pressed to go after Moby Dick nonetheless…was killed. “Gabriel” pronounces the mate a blasphemer and implies that Ahab [who has been called a blasphemer by Starbuck] will meet the same fate. A prophet warning Ahab to change his evil ways or face his Day of Judgment?
Supposition:
“Hand in hand, ship and breeze blew on; but the breeze came faster than the ship, and soon the Pequod began to rock” (329).
Going with the ending of chapter 70, going with the breeze being the breathe of God, going with this chapter beginning with a continuation of the last part of the last chapter…assuming that Ahab had a moment in which he was open to converting to “a better man.” At such a moment, the ship and God [the breeze] were traveling in harmony.
But Ahab turns from this moment and turns again fully to pursuing Moby Dick…and the breeze [the breath of God] came faster…and God shows his displeasure/”and soon the Pequod began to rock” (329).
God is sending a prophet to warn Ahab. {I’ve decided to believe in “Gabriel” as a valid prophet in this story.} Captain Mayhew rows a boat out towards the Pequod.
{There was a Jonathon Mayhew 1720-1766. He preached the strict unity of God, the subordinate nature of Christ, and salvation by character.}
“Gabriel” is in the boat with Mayhew. “Gabriel” attempts to warn Ahab…however, his attempts are disrupted by **fiends (see above).
Right now, since for the time being I’m going with “Gabriel” being valid, then have to go also with Moby Dick being an agent of God. Harry Macey, blasphemous mate, defier of warning of God’s prophet, goes after Moby Dick. “Gabriel” climbs the masthead.
And the Judgment of the Lord was against him [Macey]…
And “lo! [very biblical]
a broad white shadow rose from the sea [I’m reading “rose” as traveling upward in a religious sense];
by it’s quick, fanning motion, temporarily taking the breath out of the bodies of the oarsmen. [Moby Dick, acting on God’s behalf, takes the breath [life] out of the oarsmen, thus creating the conditions necessary to render punishment to Macey.]
Next instant, the luckless mate….was smitten bodily into the air…[smitten/smote; very biblical]
…but not a hair of any oarsman head” was harmed” (333). [This reads eerily like Luke 21:18, “But not a hair of your head shall perish.”]
Now people, I can just as well type to myself alone on my computer as I finish reading Moby Dick. Should it be that I've somehow taken all the fun out of Moby Dick for you, I would take no offense if you were to ask me to cease and desist.
I say this because I think perhaps you were having more fun before; I would like you people to enjoy Moby Dick.
I say this because I think perhaps you were having more fun before; I would like you people to enjoy Moby Dick.
I'm getting so much out of your posts, Adelle. I love this book, and your insights are helping me to love it even more. Please don't "cease and desist" what you're doing!
I love the book, too. Enjoying it and enjoying the process of writing so I can figure what I think---because that's how I read.
I just thought last night that it looked as though there had been more back and forths earlier in the book. And that for people who process the book that way...maybe I was taking away some of the fun for them.
I just thought last night that it looked as though there had been more back and forths earlier in the book. And that for people who process the book that way...maybe I was taking away some of the fun for them.
Adelle wrote: "Now people, I can just as well type to myself alone on my computer as I finish reading Moby Dick. Should it be that I've somehow taken all the fun out of Moby Dick for you, I would take no offens..."You dazzle me, Adelle. Keep it up.
Laurele wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Now people, I can just as well type to myself alone on my computer as I finish reading Moby Dick. Should it be that I've somehow taken all the fun out of Moby Dick for you, I would..."Same here, keep up the good work.
Everyman wrote: "Okay, I am learning more about whales and their killing than I really thought I needed to know. The ratio of "whale book" to "adventure tale" seems to be shifting significantly from the latter to ..."Maybe there is something peculiar about my head, but I'm actually enjoying these chapters. Maybe it's just morbid curiosity, but I always wondered how the heck they dealt with the hugeness of the whale once they managed to kill one.
I do appreciate the thoughts of the whalers, most of whom are not taking for granted the ended life of this great creature. The passage about the whale's ghost and Ahab's little conversation with the decapitaed head reveal an awareness of something they can't quite touch.
That being said, I don't quite understand this passage from ch 70
"O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."
Anyone have ideas?
CK wrote: ""O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."Anyone have ideas? "
The notion that there is a "duplicate in mind" for everything sounds very Platonic to me. Ahab doesn't think in philosophical terms exactly, but he is motivated by, or obsessed with, One Big Idea. Moby Dick is not just a whale for Ahab, he is an idealization of some kind. The earlier discussion about whether Ahab will be happy when he has accomplished his goal of killing Moby Dick stems from this, I think. His reality is so caught up with the idea of vengeance that we have to wonder if he can really be happy with the concrete realization of it, or if he will be like someone in pursuit of "true love" who is finally disappointed in "real love."
Ishmael, on the other hand, is fascinated by the concrete minutiae of everything. He isn't fixated on any particular belief; he appreciates them all and passes no judgment (though he is put off by Elijah, for some reason...) The contrast between Ahab's focused megalomania and Ishmael the observer cataloging all the details is really interesting.
Everyman wrote: "How many of you look on wildcatters, on those who want to drill for oil in ANWAR and off the California costs, on the owners and operators of the Exxon Valdez, or the Deepwater Horizon, with respect and appreciation for their contributions to your life? "This seems important to remember as we read about the dangerous work in this week's chapters.
Thomas wrote: "CK wrote: ""O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."Anyone have..."
Thomas: so the passage is just saying there are two sides to every coin? that sounds like Ishmael and yet it came from Ahab.....curious
trying to get my thoughts back into Melville after several intense days of number crunching
Laurele wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Would now St. Paul would come along that way, and to my breezelessness bring his breeze!" Mmmm. I had two thoughts on this. (1) Paul was such a prolific writer. Perhaps Ahab was re..."
I thought of a different angle on Ahab's reference to Paul. Before his experience on the road to Damascus, Paul pursued Christians in much the same way as Ahab pursues Moby Dick. It seems they shared the commonality of an all consuming and insatiable need to eradicate their enemy. Yet Paul was freed from this 'demon' by his conversion.
I don't think that Ahab seeks god so much as he wishes there were some way to be free of this hatred (of MD) that controls him.
Vikz wrote: "I'm finding this whaling info useful ;. I was watching a TV quiz with my family and their was a question about (historical) whaling. I could go into quite some detail. My family were astounded wh..."LOL!!! The virtues of a classical eduction, whether formal or, as here, sometimes informal.
M wrote: "But my overall thought is that these "longueurs", as I've heard such sections called, interspersed with the action chapters, are spaced very purposefully. The reader is put into the position of the whalemen, who are forced to spent the bulk of their time waiting, waiting, waiting for those times of intense action. A whaling trip is a long, long voyage, and apparently, sometimes months on end can pass without any action. That same feeling is conveyed very well by the structure of the book, I think."That's a really nice point that hadn't at all occurred to me -- the progress of the book paralleling the progress of the voyage. Neat!
CK wrote: "Thomas wrote: "CK wrote: ""O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind..."The "cunning duplicate in mind" I take to mean that he believes that for every existing thing in reality there is an accompanying "idea" in the mind. Ahab believes the soul of man and nature (the world outside man) are linked by analogy. In philosophical terms, this is idealism. But Ahab has taken it to an extreme, to the point where his idealism has resulted in a kind of delusion. He has allowed his conception of the world to take over what the world really is. Moby Dick is no longer just a whale for him.
I think Ishmael takes the opposite approach, the empirical one. He comes to the ship and the voyage without preconceptions, and builds his belief system on the details of his personal experience. This allows him, for example, to be friends with a cannibal.
But the wonderful thing about this book is that it can be read on several different planes. I'm taking the philosophical approach, which may not work for everyone. (Or anyone, if I can't tie all this together at the end.)
Thomas: I am intrigued and confused at the same time. Philosophical idealism makes me think of Buddhism; the concept that we can somehow live with a hardship more easily if we recognize that it is only our deceptive perception of that situation that makes it seem a hardship and a differing perception could generate an entirely different reality from the same situation. It's all about letting go. Ahab isn't letting go, although I think some part of him would like to.The fact that Ahab calls this duplicate 'cunning' does lend some credibility to your position; as though he knows he's being deceived. But if this is the case, why the intense vengeance?
Adelle wrote: "There IS that head. (Heads at the beginning of the book, too. Queequeg had one. I wonder what that might mean.) "Hmmm. A connection between the whale's head and QQ's head? Interesting possibility. Was the point of QQ's head more than just the exoticism of the headhunter/ cannibalism, or was there more there?
CK wrote: "Thomas: I am intrigued and confused at the same time. Philosophical idealism makes me think of Buddhism; the concept that we can somehow live with a hardship more easily if we recognize that it is..."True, Ahab would not make a very good Buddhist. Ideals can be a source of suffering -- we can see this in Ahab, I think. Perception (in the Buddhist way of thinking) is not necessarily deceptive, but it is impermanent, because the world is impermanent, which is the whole problem with idealism -- idealism says that human "ideas" of things are unchanging, eternal realities. But our everyday experience is that this isn't true. Things come into being, and they pass away. There is no such thing as perfection, which is what idealism presupposes. Buddhism advises emptiness, freedom from ideals, and acceptance of what is, in all its imperfection, as a way of finding peace from attachment to a world in flux. Ahab does not accept a world in flux at all -- he is intent on imposing his will on the whale, and we can see the result.
I don't want to drag the discussion too far afield, but I definitely think that Melville had some of this stuff in mind.
Ah! I pushed and read thru and just finished chapter 86. And I have to retract my opinion that Ishmael just liked information. Ishmael/Melville, I now think, was truly, truly taken with whales.
(SO nice to turn the computer on and see all the engagement. Like, 13 posts or so!)
Adelle wrote: "Now people, I can just as well type to myself alone on my computer as I finish reading Moby Dick. Should it be that I've somehow taken all the fun out of Moby Dick for you, I would take no offens..."If you cease and desist, I will slither though the Internet wires to your house and e-grab you by the throat and e-shake you until you resume! I love your posts. They are usually so complete and beautifully argued that all I can do is sit in awe and appreciation because you have left so little to discuss further. But you're right, I should be saying so much more often!
Adelle wrote: "I just thought last night that it looked as though there had been more back and forths earlier in the book."For me, that's because a lot more was happening that called for discussion -- character development, plot development, all of that. These chapters about Whales are interesting (mostly, at least!) but there isn't a lot I'm finding to discuss in them -- they're just there.
Adelle wrote: "Ah! I pushed and read thru and just finished chapter 86. And I have to retract my opinion that Ishmael just liked information. Ishmael/Melville, I now think, was truly, truly taken with whales."Yes, for this reason CH 79 The Prairie is one of my favorites. I am wondering right along with Melville and Ishmael; what does go on inside that great head?
CK wrote: "Yes, for this reason CH 79 The Prairie is one of my favorites "
Wasn't that a great chapter! One of my favorites as well.
Wasn't that a great chapter! One of my favorites as well.
Post 46 Everyman wrote: "Adelle
Well...yes...she wrote rather abashedly...and thank you...
but, lightening up, I just didn't want to be inhibiting anyone...because the interaction with the book is what weaves the book into one's brain...and it's fun...and I wanted everyone reading the book to have fun.
Well...yes...she wrote rather abashedly...and thank you...
but, lightening up, I just didn't want to be inhibiting anyone...because the interaction with the book is what weaves the book into one's brain...and it's fun...and I wanted everyone reading the book to have fun.
But the book is still holding my attention, in part because of remarkable chapters like 71 and 81. One note I came across said that whalers were unusual for usually stopping to chat with other whalers they came across, where as merchant ships would generally just pass by and keep on going. So these visits are apparently historically accurate. (Those who watch the Deadliest Catch will find the same interactions, only these days it's over the radio.)
I can't wait to see what some of you do with Chapter 71. Wow! First we had Elijah, now we have Gabriel. (I'm especially looking forward to seeing what Adelle does with this! And for our Biblical experts to comment!)
How are others holding up under the heavy dose of whale information? Are you finding this holding your interest, or is a bit of skimming going on? (Confession is good for the soul!)