Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
>
Week 4 - through chapter 86
date
newest »
newest »
Adelle wrote: "Chapter 72, “The Monkey-Rope”
Oh,yes. I forgot. I had written: 1) It seems to me be here to remind us of the real reason most whaling ships—BUT NOT AHAB’S--- are out whaling. For the money. {Ah!!! Just had a thought. See bottom of post.}
From a different point of view... There is the biblical question, Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?"
Since I'm reading this, on one level, at least, as a religious parable, then this is a most appropriate question.
Ahab's a captain. Mayhap he's done well in a monetary sense. But it would seem his soul is in jepardy. So I'm reading this as Ahab's last best chance {HaHaHa...is it chance?} to save his soul.
Oh,yes. I forgot. I had written: 1) It seems to me be here to remind us of the real reason most whaling ships—BUT NOT AHAB’S--- are out whaling. For the money. {Ah!!! Just had a thought. See bottom of post.}
From a different point of view... There is the biblical question, Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?"
Since I'm reading this, on one level, at least, as a religious parable, then this is a most appropriate question.
Ahab's a captain. Mayhap he's done well in a monetary sense. But it would seem his soul is in jepardy. So I'm reading this as Ahab's last best chance {HaHaHa...is it chance?} to save his soul.
Post 33 CK wrote: That being said, I don't quite understand this passage from ch 70
"O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."
Anyone have ideas?
"
for what it's worth...
OK, Everyman said don't read analysis...but I'm reading bits and pieces on Melville's background...I figure that's legit.
And that quote was mentioned. Regarding Melville having been possibly influenced by Swedenborg.
The quote from MD: "O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."
compared with a passage from Swedenborg:
"j...that in the natural world...there is not the smallest thing which does not represent something in the spiritual world, or which has not something there to which it corresponds"
I'd give links, but there are so many.
"O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."
Anyone have ideas?
"
for what it's worth...
OK, Everyman said don't read analysis...but I'm reading bits and pieces on Melville's background...I figure that's legit.
And that quote was mentioned. Regarding Melville having been possibly influenced by Swedenborg.
The quote from MD: "O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom stirs or lives in matter, but has its cunning duplicate in mind."
compared with a passage from Swedenborg:
"j...that in the natural world...there is not the smallest thing which does not represent something in the spiritual world, or which has not something there to which it corresponds"
I'd give links, but there are so many.
Adelle wrote: "Vikz wrote: "What do you think about Fedellah? What do you think he represents? Do you agree with Flack that he is the devil? What do you make of the quiet paranoia that surrounds him?"
Vikz...I'..."
Vikz...if I'm not mistaken, Fedellah is in the next chapter. And I think I have thoughts. Anyway, I had thoughts last night as I was falling asleep. Maybe I'll still have them this evening.
Ta.
Vikz...I'..."
Vikz...if I'm not mistaken, Fedellah is in the next chapter. And I think I have thoughts. Anyway, I had thoughts last night as I was falling asleep. Maybe I'll still have them this evening.
Ta.
So far, we haven't really discussed Starbuck much, but I was intrigued by the contrast between him and Flask in "The Pequod Meets the Virgin," when he unsuccessfully tries to stop Flask from causing unnecessary pain to the whale by lancing it directly in a sore spot. This marks (by my memory) the third time that Starbuck has acted as a sort of voice of reason/conscience. He was the only one to show disapproval of Ahab's quest for Moby Dick, but is also empathetic enough to feel a real sympathy for Ahab which I don't really see from any other character except Ishmael. He is very sensitive to what he perceives as Ahab's blasphemy in regard to Moby Dick. And here, he proves that, while he may make his living from killing whales, he still manages to have a respect for them as fellow members of creation who deserve not to be caused superfluous pain.I'm beginning to think we're not giving Starbuck his full credit. Starbuck doesn't spend his time delivering brooding monologues or lecturing us on philosophy and whales, but his reactions to these few situations give me the impression that he is a thinking person. He just doesn't feel the need to share his thoughts with others. Certainly, he forms his own opinions.
I also found this passage, also from "The Pequod Meets the Virgin," striking:"For all his old age, and his one arm, and his blind eyes, he must die the death and be murdered, in order to light the gay bridals and other merry-makings of men, and also to illuminate the solemn churches that preach unconditional inoffensiveness by all to all."
For someone who spends so much time extolling the practice of whaling, it's an interesting thing to bring up.
Adelle wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Chapter 72, “The Monkey-Rope”Oh,yes. I forgot. I had written: 1) It seems to me be here to remind us of the real reason most whaling ships—BUT NOT AHAB’S--- are out whali..."
Adelle, nowhere does the Bible say it is wrong to work for money. That's how we get food and shelter for our families. In the parable of the talents, the one who did not increase his money was reprimanded. It is the love of money that is the root of all sorts of evil, not money itself. But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.
Audrey wrote: "So far, we haven't really discussed Starbuck much, but I was intrigued by the contrast between him and Flask in "The Pequod Meets the Virgin," when he unsuccessfully tries to stop Flask from causin..."I'm with you, Audrey. Starbucks is the man for me. He is the moral compass of the voyage.
Post 52, Post 57 Laurele wrote: "Adelle, nowhere does the Bible say it is wrong to work for money. That's how we get food and shelter for our families. In the parable of the talents, the one who did not increase his money was reprimanded. It is the love of money that is the root of all sorts of evil, not money itself.
Hey Laurele, You are absolutely right about that.
But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.
Probably me not being clear enough!
What I was trying to say was that Ahab probably had been a successful captain---I'm thinking he wouldn't have gone out repeatedly as a captain if he hadn't been successful...bringing back ships full of oil...and that he probably had a fair share of profit. He managed to find the whales and bring the oil back to port for profit. And it was probably a good thing for himself and for the people who owned shares in the voyage.
I wasn't trying to say that the profit motive was wrong. I wasn't trying to say the his soul was in peril BECAUSE he had made money.
But it does look to me as though Ahab's soul is in jepardy. I have no idea why it is.[Edit: Hate being at least one reason.] Normally, a whaling captain would be looking to kill whales and bring home oil. Normally Ahab would. And his crew HAVE killed whales on this voyage. However, that's not Ahab's motive this time.
To me, it seems that Ahab is not going to resolve the issues he needs to resolve (whatever they are), that he's going to lose his soul (for some reason I don't know), unless he goes after Moby Dick. (And here, perhaps, I'm thinking of Moby Dick as more of a symbol than as an actual whale.)
So for Ahab, even though going after whales as the mission, as he always did before, with the goal of making money----which IS what the people back in Nantucket are depending on---and which is what he SHOULD be doing --- certainly on a societal level...But on an individual level, on a psychological level (I'm reading the book that way, too), for the sake of his soul (and I'm reading it symbolically that way as well), he MUST go after Moby Dick.
If he goes after the money(the regular whales)[which he should be doing], then he loses his soul. Maybe he loses his soul anyway when he finally catches up with Moby Dick and confronts him. But I'm hoping that in his confrontation, Ahab figures out what he needs to figure out...I'm hoping that he manages to resolve his issues.
I do realize that I keep switching back-and-forth: reading the book as an adventure tale with real whales and then I shift into reading the whales and the events described as psychological or religious symbols. (I give myself full permission to read it that way; Melville switches from writing the book as being narrated by Ishmael to writing the book as being narrated by some rather Omnipotent.)
I googled The Book of Mark and found that the very next sentence following the quote is "Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?" Which I find significant as it brings to the fore again the theory that Ahab sold his soul in order to get Moby Dick.
Hey Laurele, You are absolutely right about that.
But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.
Probably me not being clear enough!
What I was trying to say was that Ahab probably had been a successful captain---I'm thinking he wouldn't have gone out repeatedly as a captain if he hadn't been successful...bringing back ships full of oil...and that he probably had a fair share of profit. He managed to find the whales and bring the oil back to port for profit. And it was probably a good thing for himself and for the people who owned shares in the voyage.
I wasn't trying to say that the profit motive was wrong. I wasn't trying to say the his soul was in peril BECAUSE he had made money.
But it does look to me as though Ahab's soul is in jepardy. I have no idea why it is.[Edit: Hate being at least one reason.] Normally, a whaling captain would be looking to kill whales and bring home oil. Normally Ahab would. And his crew HAVE killed whales on this voyage. However, that's not Ahab's motive this time.
To me, it seems that Ahab is not going to resolve the issues he needs to resolve (whatever they are), that he's going to lose his soul (for some reason I don't know), unless he goes after Moby Dick. (And here, perhaps, I'm thinking of Moby Dick as more of a symbol than as an actual whale.)
So for Ahab, even though going after whales as the mission, as he always did before, with the goal of making money----which IS what the people back in Nantucket are depending on---and which is what he SHOULD be doing --- certainly on a societal level...But on an individual level, on a psychological level (I'm reading the book that way, too), for the sake of his soul (and I'm reading it symbolically that way as well), he MUST go after Moby Dick.
If he goes after the money(the regular whales)[which he should be doing], then he loses his soul. Maybe he loses his soul anyway when he finally catches up with Moby Dick and confronts him. But I'm hoping that in his confrontation, Ahab figures out what he needs to figure out...I'm hoping that he manages to resolve his issues.
I do realize that I keep switching back-and-forth: reading the book as an adventure tale with real whales and then I shift into reading the whales and the events described as psychological or religious symbols. (I give myself full permission to read it that way; Melville switches from writing the book as being narrated by Ishmael to writing the book as being narrated by some rather Omnipotent.)
I googled The Book of Mark and found that the very next sentence following the quote is "Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?" Which I find significant as it brings to the fore again the theory that Ahab sold his soul in order to get Moby Dick.
Adelle wrote: "Post 33 CK wrote: That being said, I don't quite understand this passage from ch 70 "O Nature, and O soul of man! how far beyond all utterance are your linked analogies! not the smallest atom s..."
Thanks Adelle
I would tend to say that for Ahab to go after Moby Dick is to put his soul in jeopardy, rather than otherwise. He's trying to defeat nature and, by extension, God. I keep going back to "I'd strike the sun if it insulted me" (or something like that; I couldn't find the exact quote). He can't accept that, in the grand scheme of things, he's totally insignificant. I think that's the significance of his relationship to Moby Dick. A whale takes off his leg in instinctive self-defense and Ahab takes it as a personal slight. I would tend to think that, if he could accept the loss of his leg, forget about Moby Dick, and pursue the ostensible purpose of the voyage, it would be his salvation.
Audrey wrote: "I also found this passage, also from "The Pequod Meets the Virgin," striking:"For all his old age, and his one arm, and his blind eyes, he must die the death and be murdered, in order to light th..."
I earmarked this page to come back and re-read. Melville keeps us ever mindful of potential hypocrisy or at least of the need to keep all things in balance.
Audrey wrote: "I would tend to say that for Ahab to go after Moby Dick is to put his soul in jeopardy, rather than otherwise. He's trying to defeat nature and, by extension, God. I keep going back to "I'd strik..."I really think that Ahab would like to be free, but is trapped. See Crown of Lombardy Ch 37 and references to Paul in Ch 70. There is a general truth that once a person has a spiritual encounter, be it good or evil, that person can never again be the same. They may run / hide / deny, but something inside them can never be 'simple' again. I think this is Ahab. The incident with MD took him to the depths of his own soul. We only glimpse at what he encountered there and bear witness to his struggle to exorcise the beast that now rules him. He is compelled to kill MD, which may satiate the beast, but it will always remain in Ahab.
Audrey wrote: "So far, we haven't really discussed Starbuck much,
Melville, I felt, had done such a superlative job of describing the hunting and killing of the whale from the whale's perspective in that chapter [81, "The Pequod Meets the Virgin"]. He made me cringe when I read about the whale "writhing and wrenching in agony," and I could almost feel the whale's fear when he was trying to hide deep under the water.
So I was glad, too, when Starbuck yelled "Avast!" to try to stop Flask from inflicting over-the-top pain unto the whale. I know Starbuck was described early in the book as a good man and a pious man.
And maybe he's a man who wants to do the right thing. But that unfortunately, and I feel badly for him, it's not enough.
But I went back and re-read chapter 26, and I get the sense that Starbuck is going to be found sadly wanting at some point in this book...I think it implies that he won't have what it takes to stand up to Ahab at a time when he should.
It looks, too, as though Ahab knows this about Starbuck. In the one-on-one between Ahab and Starbuck in chapter 36, "The Quarter-deck," Ahab telling Starbuck to speak up: "--Aye, aye! thy silence, than, that voices thee" (179).
Also, in re-reading, I see that although Starbuck labeled Ahab's vengeful pursuit of Moby Dick -- blasphemous...
still...
he didn't speak up on his own volition. Ahab said to him, "But what's this long face about, Mr. Starbuck; wilt thou not chase the white whale?" and only then did Starbuck speak.
But, I find this interesting, Starbuck said he didn't have any objections to Moby Dick "if it fairly comes in the way of the business we follow" and he adds that even if they catch Moby Dick, they won't make much money on him.
Now just maybe Starbuck is a good administrator, or maybe Starbuck does have a love for money.
It would seem that Ahab and Starbuck know each other rather well.
Ahab basically accuses Starbuck of being a man for whom "money's to be the measurer." (And yes, this would be a postive attribute in the eyes of the owners of the Pequod.)
And Starbuck, whose only problem with killing Moby Dick was that he wouldn't bring in enough money, Starbuck doesn't mention blasphemy until after his fiscal arguments have fallen short. It's like he knows that Ahab is a religious man, and that playing the religious card, calling Ahab's proposed action "blasphemous" might be a way to change Ahab's mind.
"Good keep me! -- keep us all!" murmured Starbuck, [and just for good measure; for emphasis]lowly. (180).
Mmmm. I see, too, in the stage directions for Chapter 38, "Dusk," that Starbuck is not a stander-upper. (By the Main-mast; Starbuck leaning against it.)
IF such suppositions are close to the mark (and I could be mistaken), then I feel badly for Starbuck. To know what the right thing to do is, and to want the right thing to be done, but not to have the ability to stand up and advocate strongly for it to be done. Sadness.
I wonder now...Starbuck cried "Avast!" ... but maybe Flask and the men know that there isn't any strength in Starbuck...perhaps they feel that they can disregard his orders without their suffering any punishment.
???
Melville, I felt, had done such a superlative job of describing the hunting and killing of the whale from the whale's perspective in that chapter [81, "The Pequod Meets the Virgin"]. He made me cringe when I read about the whale "writhing and wrenching in agony," and I could almost feel the whale's fear when he was trying to hide deep under the water.
So I was glad, too, when Starbuck yelled "Avast!" to try to stop Flask from inflicting over-the-top pain unto the whale. I know Starbuck was described early in the book as a good man and a pious man.
And maybe he's a man who wants to do the right thing. But that unfortunately, and I feel badly for him, it's not enough.
But I went back and re-read chapter 26, and I get the sense that Starbuck is going to be found sadly wanting at some point in this book...I think it implies that he won't have what it takes to stand up to Ahab at a time when he should.
It looks, too, as though Ahab knows this about Starbuck. In the one-on-one between Ahab and Starbuck in chapter 36, "The Quarter-deck," Ahab telling Starbuck to speak up: "--Aye, aye! thy silence, than, that voices thee" (179).
Also, in re-reading, I see that although Starbuck labeled Ahab's vengeful pursuit of Moby Dick -- blasphemous...
still...
he didn't speak up on his own volition. Ahab said to him, "But what's this long face about, Mr. Starbuck; wilt thou not chase the white whale?" and only then did Starbuck speak.
But, I find this interesting, Starbuck said he didn't have any objections to Moby Dick "if it fairly comes in the way of the business we follow" and he adds that even if they catch Moby Dick, they won't make much money on him.
Now just maybe Starbuck is a good administrator, or maybe Starbuck does have a love for money.
It would seem that Ahab and Starbuck know each other rather well.
Ahab basically accuses Starbuck of being a man for whom "money's to be the measurer." (And yes, this would be a postive attribute in the eyes of the owners of the Pequod.)
And Starbuck, whose only problem with killing Moby Dick was that he wouldn't bring in enough money, Starbuck doesn't mention blasphemy until after his fiscal arguments have fallen short. It's like he knows that Ahab is a religious man, and that playing the religious card, calling Ahab's proposed action "blasphemous" might be a way to change Ahab's mind.
"Good keep me! -- keep us all!" murmured Starbuck, [and just for good measure; for emphasis]lowly. (180).
Mmmm. I see, too, in the stage directions for Chapter 38, "Dusk," that Starbuck is not a stander-upper. (By the Main-mast; Starbuck leaning against it.)
IF such suppositions are close to the mark (and I could be mistaken), then I feel badly for Starbuck. To know what the right thing to do is, and to want the right thing to be done, but not to have the ability to stand up and advocate strongly for it to be done. Sadness.
I wonder now...Starbuck cried "Avast!" ... but maybe Flask and the men know that there isn't any strength in Starbuck...perhaps they feel that they can disregard his orders without their suffering any punishment.
???
@ post 63 CK wrote: The incident with MD took him to the depths of his own soul. We only glimpse at what he encountered there and bear witness to his struggle to exorcise the beast that now rules him. He is compelled to kill MD, which may satiate the beast
I think this is rather close to my thinking.
(Smile. I keep reading that there are many ways of looking at Moby Dick)
I think this is rather close to my thinking.
(Smile. I keep reading that there are many ways of looking at Moby Dick)
Adelle wrote: "Chapter 72, “The Monkey-Rope”Now, since Siamese twins are without a doubt brothers, is not Ishmael saying that we are ALL brothers, that as Ishmael, connected by the monkey-rope to his Siamese ligatured Queegueg, and is responsible for him, then we ARE our brothers’ keepers?
There are numerous examples of these "linkages" in the novel. Ch. 60, the Line, is another example.
But why say more? All men live enveloped in whale-lines. All are born with halters round their necks; but it is only when caught in the swift, sudden turn of death, that mortals realize the silent, subtle, ever-present perils of life.
The "magical, sometimes horrible whale-line" is a metaphor that works on more than one level, but I think the most dramatic one is the line that links Ahab and Moby Dick. Ahab is trapped, as CK says, or in a reversal of affairs, harpooned by Moby Dick.
@ Post 61, Audrey wrote I would tend to say that for Ahab to go after Moby Dick is to put his soul in jeopardy, rather than otherwise. He's trying to defeat nature and, by extension, God. I keep going back to "I'd strike the sun if it insulted me" (or something like that; I couldn't find the exact quote). He can't accept that, in the grand scheme of things, he's totally insignificant. I think that's the significance of his relationship to Moby Dick. A whale takes off his leg in instinctive self-defense and Ahab takes it as a personal slight. I would tend to think that, if he could accept the loss of his leg, forget about Moby Dick, and pursue the ostensible purpose of the voyage, it would be his salvation.
I respect your opinion, but can't accept it for myself.
I don't know Ahab's life prior to the start of the book. Maybe his soul was in jepardy even before the book began. But to my way of thinking, Ahab's soul was in jepardy when, following his delirium, he was filled with hate [which he is now projecting unto Moby Dick]. Just the fact that he is filled with hate is what imperils his soul.
I suspect that the hate is a cover for fear. My thinking, again, is that when he lost his leg, in his fevor and delirium, being a religious man, fearful of having to face his God...fearful of judgment [for something Ahab did or thought he had done]...not WANTING that fear...Ahab flipped it into hate. We know he's filled with hate. And hate is sin. Therefore, Ahab will lose his soul. Unless he can find a way to overcome this hate.
If he did NOT go after Moby Dick, my thinking is that Ahab's hate would grow and grow. Therefore, Ahab loses his soul.
I don't believe that Ahab is on this rampage because he views the loss of his leg as a personal slight. Ahab, to my mind, is a much bigger man than that. I really think that before he went into delirum and got messed up psychologically, that Ahab was a hell of a man.
As you say, and I agree, IF he could let it go....then yes, that very well might be his salvation.
But that's just the point. He can't.
It is possible that should Ahab take some time off and stay in Nantucket with his wife and son, possibly, he would come to see that THEY were what was really important in his life and he possibly would be able to let his hate go. In which case, maybe he could save his soul.
If there had been a psychologist that Ahab could have spoken with, possibly he would have been able to come to see that his [Ahab's] thinking was deranged. In which case, maybe he could have saved his soul. But there wasn't.
If there had been a minister who could have spoken with Ahab, such that Ahab could have come to see that this was a part of God's plan and that Ahab is certainly a strong enough man, and especially with God's help, then yes, Ahab could maybe have saved his soul. But part of Ahab's derangement is this anger and hatred, too, of God. So he's not going to palaver with the pastor. And so Ahab loses his soul.
But he needs the money...OR, the owners of the Pequod, knowing that Ahab has a real good reason to want to kill whales, and knowing that therefore it is in their fiscal interest to send the Pequod out with Ahab at the helm, the owners {Bildad, etc}, convince him to take the ship...OR...Ahab is just so filled with hate that he won't allow himself to do otherwise.
But with all those scenarios, Ahab is filled with hate. Therefore, his soul is damned.
The ONLY storyline that even offers the possibility of Ahab's discharging this anger and hate is for Ahab to confront Moby Dick----who he sees as the physical representative of God...Ahab can't get to God directly....So Moby Dick now, in Ahab's distorted thinking, needs to be confronted.
There is a possibility --- and only a possiblity --- that in confronting Moby Dick, that Ahab will somehow come to his senses. Sure, he probably gets killed. However, if he can empty his heart of all that hatred, then maybe he has a chance to save his soul.
{like the psychologist, had Ahab been lucky enough to have had one, would have told him, "You need to confront your fears.)
I just don't see any other way for him.
I respect your opinion, but can't accept it for myself.
I don't know Ahab's life prior to the start of the book. Maybe his soul was in jepardy even before the book began. But to my way of thinking, Ahab's soul was in jepardy when, following his delirium, he was filled with hate [which he is now projecting unto Moby Dick]. Just the fact that he is filled with hate is what imperils his soul.
I suspect that the hate is a cover for fear. My thinking, again, is that when he lost his leg, in his fevor and delirium, being a religious man, fearful of having to face his God...fearful of judgment [for something Ahab did or thought he had done]...not WANTING that fear...Ahab flipped it into hate. We know he's filled with hate. And hate is sin. Therefore, Ahab will lose his soul. Unless he can find a way to overcome this hate.
If he did NOT go after Moby Dick, my thinking is that Ahab's hate would grow and grow. Therefore, Ahab loses his soul.
I don't believe that Ahab is on this rampage because he views the loss of his leg as a personal slight. Ahab, to my mind, is a much bigger man than that. I really think that before he went into delirum and got messed up psychologically, that Ahab was a hell of a man.
As you say, and I agree, IF he could let it go....then yes, that very well might be his salvation.
But that's just the point. He can't.
It is possible that should Ahab take some time off and stay in Nantucket with his wife and son, possibly, he would come to see that THEY were what was really important in his life and he possibly would be able to let his hate go. In which case, maybe he could save his soul.
If there had been a psychologist that Ahab could have spoken with, possibly he would have been able to come to see that his [Ahab's] thinking was deranged. In which case, maybe he could have saved his soul. But there wasn't.
If there had been a minister who could have spoken with Ahab, such that Ahab could have come to see that this was a part of God's plan and that Ahab is certainly a strong enough man, and especially with God's help, then yes, Ahab could maybe have saved his soul. But part of Ahab's derangement is this anger and hatred, too, of God. So he's not going to palaver with the pastor. And so Ahab loses his soul.
But he needs the money...OR, the owners of the Pequod, knowing that Ahab has a real good reason to want to kill whales, and knowing that therefore it is in their fiscal interest to send the Pequod out with Ahab at the helm, the owners {Bildad, etc}, convince him to take the ship...OR...Ahab is just so filled with hate that he won't allow himself to do otherwise.
But with all those scenarios, Ahab is filled with hate. Therefore, his soul is damned.
The ONLY storyline that even offers the possibility of Ahab's discharging this anger and hate is for Ahab to confront Moby Dick----who he sees as the physical representative of God...Ahab can't get to God directly....So Moby Dick now, in Ahab's distorted thinking, needs to be confronted.
There is a possibility --- and only a possiblity --- that in confronting Moby Dick, that Ahab will somehow come to his senses. Sure, he probably gets killed. However, if he can empty his heart of all that hatred, then maybe he has a chance to save his soul.
{like the psychologist, had Ahab been lucky enough to have had one, would have told him, "You need to confront your fears.)
I just don't see any other way for him.
CK wrote: "keep things in balance..."
Good point. Mmm. Very good point. Look how often the Pequod has been un-balanced.
Good point. Mmm. Very good point. Look how often the Pequod has been un-balanced.
@ Post 66 Thomas wrote: "There are numerous examples of these "linkages" in the novel. Ch. 60, the Line, is another example.
"But why say more? All men live enveloped in whale-lines. All are born with halters round their necks; but it is only when caught in the swift, sudden turn of death, that mortals realize the silent, subtle, ever-present perils of life.
Yes!!
And what a marvelous way to phrase the predicament of Ahab: "Ahab is trapped, as CK says, or in a reversal of affairs, harpooned by Moby Dick."
I love that!
i>
"But why say more? All men live enveloped in whale-lines. All are born with halters round their necks; but it is only when caught in the swift, sudden turn of death, that mortals realize the silent, subtle, ever-present perils of life.
Yes!!
And what a marvelous way to phrase the predicament of Ahab: "Ahab is trapped, as CK says, or in a reversal of affairs, harpooned by Moby Dick."
I love that!
i>
Laurele wrote: "Audrey wrote: "So far, we haven't really discussed Starbuck much, but I was intrigued by the contrast between him and Flask in "The Pequod Meets the Virgin," when he unsuccessfully tries to stop Fl..."
! Or, Laurele and Audrey are onto something, and Starbuck IS the moral compass of the ship...but no one is checking the compass/ or paying attention and so the ship and crew will be lost.
! Or, Laurele and Audrey are onto something, and Starbuck IS the moral compass of the ship...but no one is checking the compass/ or paying attention and so the ship and crew will be lost.
Susanna wrote: "And there is this from Ch.75 (The Right Whale's Head)"This Right Whale I take to have been a Stoic; the Sperm Whale, a Platonian, who might have taken up Spinoza in his latter years." Even the whales are philosophers in this book. ..."
A few pages earlier the right whale is compared to Locke and the sperm whale to Kant, and for a while the heads of these keep the Pequod in balance. (ch.73)
...by the counterpoise of both heads, she regained her even keel, though sorely strained, you may well believe.
Whether it's Stoicism vs. Platonism, or Locke vs. Kant, the effect seems to be the same -- the right whale is described as empirical, practical, down to earth (like Starbuck, I think) while the sperm whale is idealistic, hard-headed, and absolutist (Ahab, obviously.) The metaphor in Ch. 78, "Cisterns and Buckets" is almost over the top -- Tashtego falls into "Plato's honey head" while drawing out the contents of the sperm whale's head. And then he is delivered by Queequeg's "agile obstetrics". Socrates famously calls himself a "midwife" who helps his interlocutors give birth to wisdom.
One wonders if Ahab will also be rescued, or delivered from his "honey head." (But who could do it? He insists there is no one "over him," and he doesn't seem to be amenable to any kind of questioning.) Who can be Socrates for Ahab?
Adelle wrote: "AFrom a different point of view... There is the biblical question, Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?"Since I'm reading this, on one level, at least, as a religious parable, then this is a most appropriate question. ."
I'm not sure what the "this" refers to. This chapter? The whole book? The process of whaling? Wasn't clear to me.
Partly because I'm seeing a lot of Biblical references here, but not that much parable. So I want to know what you see differently than I do.
Adelle wrote: "POK, Everyman said don't read analysis.."I don't think I said it quite that baldly! What I hope I said was that I think there is a benefit in engaging with these great works initially through one's own mind, and then enriching that with what others have seen in the work, rather than first reading analysis telling what the "exerts" think we're "supposed" to see in the work, which IMO too often turns our minds away from seeing what we would see if we came to the work virginally.
Audrey wrote: "This marks (by my memory) the third time that Starbuck has acted as a sort of voice of reason/conscience."Nicely presented and reasoned. I have also been developing a regard for Starbuck (even as I have to overcome my aversion to his stolen name) as the, dare I say it, most mature of the characters within the book. Your post does a good job laying out his virtues.
Adelle wrote: regarding Fedellah?
I should have written something down. I simply can't remember what I was thinking as I was falling asleep. I'm leaning towards Fedellah being a dark or evil-type influence...but I can't remember why I thought so. Sorry.
I should have written something down. I simply can't remember what I was thinking as I was falling asleep. I'm leaning towards Fedellah being a dark or evil-type influence...but I can't remember why I thought so. Sorry.
Susanna wrote: "Even the whales are philosophers"
VERY nice.
VERY nice.
Post 74, Everyman wrote: I don't think I said it quite that baldly!
Not at all, not at all. You didn’t even say it with an obvious comb-over. No, no, you said it with a full head of tastefully coifed hair.
What I hope I said was that I think there is a benefit in engaging with these great works initially through one's own mind, and then enriching that with what others have seen in the work, rather than first reading analysis telling what the "exerts" think we're "supposed" to see in the work, which IMO too often turns our minds away from seeing what we would see if we came to the work virginally.
Yes, yes, and yes. That’s precisely what you said. And I was happy to agree with you and happy to read Moby Dick on those terms. And it’s been fun. But I did decide it was safe to read background information on Melville. Bits and pieces. Melville didn’t have a particularly easy life….I was very surprised at how much poetry he wrote…He liked to stay up and drink (whiskey, if I remember correctly) and discuss metaphysics…in his later years some family members wanted to have him committed…
Not at all, not at all. You didn’t even say it with an obvious comb-over. No, no, you said it with a full head of tastefully coifed hair.
What I hope I said was that I think there is a benefit in engaging with these great works initially through one's own mind, and then enriching that with what others have seen in the work, rather than first reading analysis telling what the "exerts" think we're "supposed" to see in the work, which IMO too often turns our minds away from seeing what we would see if we came to the work virginally.
Yes, yes, and yes. That’s precisely what you said. And I was happy to agree with you and happy to read Moby Dick on those terms. And it’s been fun. But I did decide it was safe to read background information on Melville. Bits and pieces. Melville didn’t have a particularly easy life….I was very surprised at how much poetry he wrote…He liked to stay up and drink (whiskey, if I remember correctly) and discuss metaphysics…in his later years some family members wanted to have him committed…
@post 72 Thomas wrote: Socrates famously calls himself a "midwife" who helps his interlocutors give birth to wisdom.
What a neat thing to know! And it does fit into this chapter so well. With the birth analogy, that's very cool
What a neat thing to know! And it does fit into this chapter so well. With the birth analogy, that's very cool
@post 73 Everyman wrote to Adelle: I'm not sure what the "this" refers to. This chapter? The whole book? The process of whaling? Wasn't clear to me.
Not a spoiler. But terribly lengthy. So I'm tucking my response neatly here.
(view spoiler)
Not a spoiler. But terribly lengthy. So I'm tucking my response neatly here.
(view spoiler)
That's what I love about this group. Everyone is moaning about not having anything to say and then somebody makes a comment and then we're off again. I too like the character Starbuck. (BTW. Do you think that name signifies anything?) I find that this book is filled with interesting characters. From Ahab to the man who owns the Inn in early chapters, they're all so well drawn. And, in many cases, humorous. I think that that is what keeps me going.
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "AFrom a different point of view... There is the biblical question, Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?"Since I'm..."
The many biblical and philosophical references seem designed to make the reader think and think and think. Yet the ultimate questions surrounding whether or not Ahab should hunt/kill MD and what the results of these acts will be remain unanswered. A parable tells a story through hidden meanings, of which Moby Dick has plenty. It's often at the end of the parable, that the hidden meanings come together to deliver their moral intent. Maybe we will find the answers at the end. Since this is my first time reading MD, I'll have to wait and see.
Adelle wrote: "Adelle wrote: regarding Fedellah? I should have written something down. I simply can't remember what I was thinking as I was falling asleep. I'm leaning towards Fedellah being a dark or evil..."
Fedallah lives in Ahab's shadow -- that's dark enough for me.
Meantime, Fedallah was calmly eyeing the right whale's head, and ever and anon glancing from the deep wrinkles there to the lines in his own hand. And Ahab chanced so to stand, that the Parsee occupied his shadow; while, if the Parsee's shadow was there at all it seemed only to blend with, and lengthen Ahab's. As the crew toiled on, Laplandish speculations were bandied among them, concerning all these passing things. (Ch. 73)
I am getting the idea that part of the reason Melville spend so much time on cetology and on the process of whaling is that he wants to make the act and experience of whaling seem normal, a necessary part of ordinary life (though with some not-so-ordinary aspects such as Stubb eating whale by the light of a whale oil lamp) in order that, and I am allowed to speculate here because I haven't read ahead, we will eventually see how different hunting Moby Dick for vengeance is from the normal activity of hunting whales for money.
Susanna wrote: "And there is this from Ch.75 (The Right Whale's Head)"This Right Whale I take to have been a Stoic; the Sperm Whale, a Platonian, who might have taken up Spinoza in his latter years." Even the whales are philosophers in this book. ."Thanks for bringing up that passage. I also noted it with interest. Although, I'm not sure that Moby Dick will turn out to bee a Platonist; we'll have to wait until we get a look at his character to see. And won't it be interesting if we can carry that passage into our discussion of the Republic and see how Moby Dick is or is not a Platonist!
On Adelle's parable post, unhidden: I see what you mean about the book as parable, but I think maybe it is better seen as a series of parables constituting overall an allegory, on the lines of but more subtle than Pilgrim's Progress. The story of the Sperm Whjale head that you cite specifically is a good example of a fairly well self-contained parable.
Adelle wrote: "I’m just finding Moby Dick to be an amazing read. I hadn’t in the least expected to have enjoyed it as I have. I go to sleep thinking about Moby Dick and I wake up thinking about Moby Dick. The older I get, the more I realize that many of these books (like education, as one wag said) are largely wasted on the young. I doubt that a group of college sophomores in an Intro to American Lit course would see anything like the richness, the humor, the scope, the moral content that we as adults with some life experience behind us see. It's not surprising to me that being mostly read/studied in college (or even in high school) the book got the reputation it has.
It also helps that we are reading it both voluntarily and over a longer time than most college courses would allow.
Hey, what happened to the fourth whaleboat, with its secret crew and Ahab as harpooneer? They appeared so dramatically for the first whale, but now they're nowhere to be seen, and Ahab seems to stay with his ship. Is the boat crew locked back below decks? Why?
Roger wrote: "Hey, what happened to the fourth whaleboat, with its secret crew and Ahab as harpooneer? They appeared so dramatically for the first whale, but now they're nowhere to be seen, and Ahab seems to st..."Great question. We'll have to see whether they resurface if the Peaquod ever does actually sight Moby Dick and Ahab heads out for battle.
Hey, well I got really behind upon my reading, and had some things come up so I could not keep up with it, so I shall do my best to try and catch up and continue in the dicussion as well as I am able. It seems to me as if Melville may have had some conflicting feelings about whaling, or at the very least he was capable of holding some sympathetic feelings for the whales.
While I do not doubt that he held the men themselves in admiration for the dangers they faced and the courage which they displayed in the light of such dangers and how they lived thier lives, the sacrifices they made and so forth, at the same time there are a few times within the story in which Ishmael/Melville do engage in these monologues of defending Whaling/Whalers when it seems that it was not as if Whaling was truly under attack or met with any particular opposition at that time, so it does seem almost to be a case of "thou protesting too much" and makes one wonder is Melville trying to convince himself as much as the reader of the nobility of it?
In addition he makes several remarks throughout the book in which he sardonically speaks of those who enjoy the product gotten from whaling, and thier frivolous use of it, while being ignorant of where it came from and the sacrifices made to give them thier materialistic pleasures. While this can be seen as being purely a statement about the men whom lost thier lives and put themselves in harms way to acquire the whale oil for the use of those who seem oblivious to them, I think that Melville does include the whales in this as well.
Particularly I was struck by this statement which to me does not seem to portray whaling in very flattering terms nor does it seem to ring with endorsement, and it does display some empathy for the whale:
For all his old age, and his one arm, and his blind eyes, he must die the death and be murdered, in order to light the gay bridals and other merry-makings of men, and also to illuminate the solemn churches that preach unconditional inoffensiveness by all to all.
The very fact that he choose to use the word "murdered" here seems to me to be suggestive. I do not think that is a word one would use to describe something that they felt was completely ethically sound.
Silver wrote: "It seems to me as if Melville may have had some conflicting feelings about whaling, or at the very least he was capable of holding some sympathetic feelings for the whales. "
I don't find this surprising. Many men and women whose jobs involve killing or destroying have respect for the things they must kill or, for example with loggers, destroy, and while acknowledging the need for killing, are perfectly capable of wishing that it were otherwise.
Possibly a couple of different themes or messages in this chapter:
1) It seems to me be here to remind us of the real reason most whaling ships—BUT NOT AHAB’S--- are out whaling. For the money. {Ah!!! Just had a thought. See bottom of post.}
“In the tumultuous business of cutting-in and attending to a whale,” “…now merged in a joint stock company of two,” “it’s even-handed equity never could have sanctioned so gross an injustice,” “There is some sneaking Temperance Society movement about this business.”
2) Although in my reading I don’t think of Ishmael and Queegueg as being engaged in a sexual relationship, still, again in this chapter Melville has chosen to included a good deal of wordage that makes me, in this chapter, to wonder again.
The Monkey-Rope. Just last week, when discussing Faust, the two ladies in my group who had taught English (high school and college) told me that Shakespeare used apes to represent sexuality. So I did pause when I read “Monkey” –
Rope.
And then from the body of the chapter: “It was inserted there by my particular friend Queequeg”--------mmm-----(*)---“So that for better or worse, we two, for the time, were wedded-----“honor demanded” brings to mind the phrase “to love, honor, and cherish” --- “should poor Queequeg sink to rise no more” brings to mind “til death do us part”.
(*) OK, since I’m addressing this subject, I’ll confess: Melville seems to make thoughtful word choices. Early in the book, Ishmael pulled back the bed covers to see Queegueg. “pretty pickle” thought Ishmael. (But it was “factually” the tomahawk. Maybe making the point that we don’t just read facts. We bring our own interpretations, we impose our own allegories onto life.
Wake up! Says Melville. Realize that that is what humans do.) Also, I mis-thought when early in the book, Ishmael and Queequeg went to their room and Queegueg “pulled out his enormous” …whew! it turned out to be a tobacco wallet. Still, I had jumped to conclusions before I knew the facts. Really, it does seem that Melville is making that point. Facts? We don’t need no stinkin’ facts. People fill the stories/the life events in before they have all the facts.
And yet, after the fun of suppositioning on sexual relations…and, lol, perhaps after addressing sexual needs, we as readers are more relaxed, and Ishmael makes that profound philosophical point “I saw that this situation of mine was the precise situation of every mortal that breathes; only, in most cases, he, one way or other, has this Siamese connexion with a plurality of other mortals” (337).
Now, since Siamese twins are without a doubt brothers, is not Ishmael saying that we are ALL brothers, that as Ishmael, connected by the monkey-rope to his Siamese ligatured Queegueg, and is responsible for him, then we ARE our brothers’ keepers?
Was it Thomas who wrote that he’s reading this as a philosophical novel? Yes. Methinks Moby Dick reads that way SO well. (It’s as though Melville greased it for us, eh?)
Mmm, what else in this chapter?
Oh! More obviously than in previous chapters, I thought, Ishmael counterpositioned chance and fate and individual autonomy: “…my free will had received a mortal wound” --- “the multitudinous other evil chances of life”.
And how does Melville suppose that man deals with chance? “But poor Queequeg, I suppose, straining and gasping there with that great iron hook—poor Queequeg, I suppose, only prayed to Yojo, and gave up his life into
the hands of his gods” (338).
Courage helps, too, is Melville’s position. “But courage!”
Also, I think, Melville is saying that if we’re going to dive in the ocean and fight off the sharks and not know if death is near, then, says Melville, strong drink is beneficial. “It is the captain’s orders—grog for the harpooner on a whale!”
And what about that Charity? What a misnomer. (Go down a layer, eh?) Here I had thought she was being all so helpful and caring, busying herself about the Pequod before the ship pulled anchor. She may call herself Charity, but it turns out that it wasn’t that she wanted to be helpful to the crew. What she wanted was to direct the lives of others, to control the behavior of others…others whose lives she had no way of understanding herself.