Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
So, er...some questions.
Palice wrote: ". . . you must not have read many books."So you're going to fall to half-baked insults now? And, in all honesty, pretending Harry Potter is legitimate make-you-think literature is kidding yourself. Rowling leaves huge plot holes, and you're so used to reading mediocre books that you instinctively fill these in with your theories. It's the exact basis of fan-fiction and it's deplorable.
Hate to break it to you, sugartits, but i can guarantee with 100% certainty that i've read more books than you. However the main thing i'd like to address is your next comment."Reader's interpretations are part of what makes the story so interesting"
incorrect. the story is interesting on a base level, it should and does not need a certain reader response to be 'interesting' the author and audience should not matter and the text should not be limited by imposing these strict guidelines upon it.
check this essay by literary critic and theorist Roland Barthes for more information pertaining to what you just said and 'what a text needs to do' on the whole:
http://www.deathoftheauthor.com/
to address your second point:
'What's the point of reading if there's no room for you to imagine somethings for yourself?'
this is probably the stupidest thing i've read in a while. You seem to be implying that a text, to be interesting and to be meaningful and worthwhile that it needs to have some level of ambiguity. I'm afriad this is not the case and many and most literature does not have plotholes like the Harry Potter series does which are then attributed to be 'the point of reading.'
A reader can interpret a text in whatever which way they like (please see critical theory pertaining to Reader Response for more information), however, they need a good text to analyse, one that tells a competent story. One without plot holes or errors. Unfortunately Harry Potter isn't one of them.
Also i have an English Degree, you definitely have not read more books than i have.
I'm disappointed in you guys... Why don't you go argue real books instead of picking on these kids?
Palice wrote: "Brown, I feel like you googled 'flaws' with Harry Potter plot and then started asking it here. As a reader, you should try to understand it yourself, not look for answers from others. Everyone has ..."no i picked up on these flaws because i am a competent reader. It is not my fault that you are not.
I didn't ask that because i understood that J.K Rowling already responded to that, i could've also asked about 50 other plot holes however i decided not to bog down this discussion.
Now you're excusing J.K Rowling for not being a very good writer by saying she wants us to 'use our imagination to decide what her characters did' just because she forgot it?
that's not how literature works.
Note, Palice, that he says MOST, not ALL. If you're reading skills are this deplorably low, I'll let it slide you never notice any problems with Harry Potter.
You can learn a lot from Harry Potter. Like being a highschool drop out is a path to success over all of your problems.
Pizza wrote: "You can learn a lot from Harry Potter. Like being a highschool drop out is a path to success over all of your problems."so THAT's why I dropped out
DAMN YOU, ROWLING!!
Yannick wrote: "Pizza wrote: "You can learn a lot from Harry Potter. Like being a highschool drop out is a path to success over all of your problems."so THAT's why I dropped out
DAMN YOU, ROWLING!!"
THERE IS NOOOO JUSTICE!
Ok I think you should all stop arguing about this. These are personal attacks and they should seriously be stopped. We are all entitled to our own opinions. If Palice enjoys books that allow the reader to understand the character enough to fill in the gaps and to use their imagination, fantastic. If Pizza and Brown prefer books where the author leaves absolutely no room for interpretation, that's fantastic. I enjoyed reading this discussion when actual points were being brought up and everyone could discuss their theories about what happened. I do not like reading about these personal attacks on opinions. Thank you.
Why does Voldemort want to take over the world?Because if he didnt, there wouldnt be a story to read.
they destroyed all the time turners in the 5th book...says it in the sixth...im sure some one already mentioned this i just didnt go through all the posts
Caitlin wrote: "Ok I think you should all stop arguing about this. These are personal attacks and they should seriously be stopped. We are all entitled to our own opinions. If Palice enjoys books that allow the re..."THANK YOU!
Caitlin wrote: "@LindisVery insightful! I had always wondered about that, and this was one of my theories, but I had never gone into this much depth. Thank you for this."
You're welcome!
Palice wrote: "Brown, I feel like you googled 'flaws' with Harry Potter plot and then started asking it here. As a reader, you should try to understand it yourself, not look for answers from others. Everyone has ..."Well said Palice!
Pizza wrote: "You can learn a lot from Harry Potter. Like being a highschool drop out is a path to success over all of your problems."What? So now you're saying that the Harry Potter books promote dropping out of High School? I'd never heard that one before, please explain.
Brown, if you don't like the Harry Potter books, then why do you care about the "gaping holes"? (not trying to be mean, I'm just curious?)I notice that you haven't commented on any of my solutions? I personally like the fact that the reader can kind of use their own theories in a book, any book. I makes it more personal.
Answers:How come Harry couldn't see the thestrals on the way home at the end of the fourth book?
Ummm, good one. Never thought about it before. The students often walk to Hogsmede, where the platform for the train is. Maybe he walked. I don't remember anywhere in the books, where it tells how the students get back to the train at the end of the year. It's only significant on their first day, maybe because the staff at Hogwars wants their first day to be special?
Answers:If Harry's survival is one of a kind, how do the whole wizarding, in a short time after it happened, figure out that Voldemort is "dead" and Harry survived a Killing Curse?
I'm not sure that I understand this one. But, most of the wizarding world believed that Voldemort was dead. No one really knew for sure. I think that most people wanted it so much to be over that they chose to believe that he was dead.
Remember how badly Cornelius Fudge insisted that he was not back, he and most of the wizarding world were in denial. Severe Denial. Only members of the Order of the Phoenix, a few others, along with a few Death Eaters, knew that it might be possible that somewhere, somehow, he might sitll exhist.
Answers:When Harry breaks into Umbridges office to speak to Sirius why didn't Sirius just tell him to get out and use the mirror he gave him?
Another good one. I guess that I have a question to go with it. Could he actually communicate with Sirius through the mirror? I don't remember. I thought that I was just a way for Harry to "see" his Godfather. That was going to be my solution to that one. That they couldn't talk through the mirror, but using the floo power, they could.
Answers:How did the students see Venus during the midnight Astronomy exam? When as a planet it is only visible shortly after sunset and shortly before sunrise.
Okay, you win this one. I have very little knowledge of astronomy. So I can't answer that one. But now, I might look into it! : )
You aren't going to like this answer, but maybe the telescopes are magical!!!
Answers:Hagrid. Giant for a dad. Human for a mum. Just think about it.
Okay, I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. His mother was the giant, and his father was human. His mother, with giantesses really not being nurturing mothers, left Hagrid with his dad to raise. In book four, when Hagrid is talking to Olyampe, he says that his dad was so tiny that he could pick him up with one hand and put him on top of the wardorbe.
Gwap is his half brother on his mother's side of the family. He had a giant mother and father. Which is why he is so big. And kinda dumb.
So, that one is possible, one point for me!!!
Brown, actually I am enjoying your questions about her "plot holes" it is chalengeing my knowledge of the books and making me want to read them again, thanks.That being said, I don't enjoy how you, and others are being so, well, kinda mean. If you really don't like the books, why are you trying to put them down so passionately? I don't understand it.
We are all humans. No author is perfect. No author can possibly please every human on this planet. Just like any one in the public eye, actors, athelets, politicians, and all celebrities. I respect authors emencely. I wish that I could publish something that I have written. Just to have anything that came from your own imagination, heart and soul being published is a mark of success. That makes J.K. Rowling a successful author. No matter how many people don't like her books.
Fadhilah wrote: "agree with you Lindis ! =)": ) Thank You (warm fuzzies)
thefreestman wrote: "Why couldn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mordor to begin with?"Because when they tried to send out a request they sent it to the wrong thread.
Mark wrote: "thefreestman wrote: "Why couldn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mordor to begin with?"Because when they tried to send out a request they sent it to the wrong thread."
He he he that's funny. : ) Because the Verison service in Hobbington sucks!
Brown wrote: "Why did Voldermort want to take over the wizarding world again?why couldn't they just, you know, give some wizards a gun? i doubt Voldermort and his buddies are faster than bullets.
Remember tha..."
I like you!
I thought of these numerous times. And to be fair, i celebrate Ron and Hermione's birthday's EVERY year :D But not Harry's.
The time turners were all destroyed though.
gasp. not harry's?
I believe I wrote this in a different response, but Harry's birthday is much more significant. Harry has no real family, so naturally he doesn't get any recognition on his birthday. When he becomes aware of the wizarding world and becomes friends with Hermione and Ron, he receives the recognition and love from these people. His birthday also signifies the anniversary of the day he entered the wizarding world. The birthdays of Ron and Hermione are not nearly as significant because they already had the love and recognition each year.
☺the m-girl☺ wrote: "why?"Why what? Why was Harry's Birthday more significant?
Simply, he's the main charachter! Several people on here have said that it emphasizes the fact that Harry had an unloving childhood. He never really received presents until he found some friends at Hogwarts.
Ron and Hermione had loving families when they were growing up. I'm sure they got gifts from Harry on their birthday, It just wasn't important to the story.
no, i ment why unfair?
Brown wrote: "His goal is power?Please tell me where it says this in the book, sure he messes with some kids when he's younger but i don't think we can expand that reading to 'yeah he's killing everyone because..."
yeah..I guess you're right, maybe it's one of those holes in the plot. Voldemort has already messed up with life and death, so messing up with the time is not really that far fetched if he thought about it, but the only way I could think was that nobody thought about it.
Daisy wrote: "Palice wrote: "@Daisy -- that's what I said too. Who prefers guns over magic?"Seriously! If you can deflect a spell why can't you deflect a bullet? I'd rather have immediate death, torture, contr..."
well said...gun is just good for one thing...while wands can do many things...plus you need bullets, if you run out of bullets its useless (unless you wish to use it to smash something)...lol
Why did Voldemort want to take over the world? We can never really know for sure, since the books are written from Harry's perspective not Voldemort's. The closest we get to knowing what Voldemort is thinking is through the 'psychic' visions that Harry has, which all occur once Voldemort has become evil. We don't really get to know what the child Voldemort felt or his internal reasons for becoming the monster that he was. In my opinion, this is not a failing of the book, but an example of what I think those who study literature would call the bias of the narrative. Why I think that Voldemort had to be killed rather than rehabilitated was because he had physically and metaphorically gone past any redemption. By splitting his soul (a "supreme act of evil") in creating the Horcruxes, he had gone beyond human and become the personification of evil.
well, why did napoline? or hitler? they were manics(and hitler was evil)
☺the m-girl☺ wrote: "well, why did napoline? or hitler? they were evil manics"i hate to be the one to have to do this m girl but will you please thoroughly read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler
before posting something as ill-informed and just down right stupid as that.
I'm incredibly sorry but i don't understand how you even post something like that...
Plot holes in a book for children, hmmm.....
I'm sorry, but I just don't see these "holes" Maybe there are plot holes in the books and I'm just satisfied with what my mind and imagination has filled them with. Or, the "holes" just don't bother me.Why do they bother you so much? You're entitled to your opinion, I'm just curious.
Gaping plot holes?Voldemort was evil. He wanted to be the most powerful wizard of all time. He didn't love anyone. Why wouldn't he want to take over the wizarding world?
Most wizards did not know about muggle inventions. Arthur Weasley worked in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office and still couldn't use a telephone or anything. Plus the second someone would try to pull a gun on the wizard, the wizard who it was pointed at would hit them with a spell.
I know they mentioned in the 3rd book all about how tricky time travel is, and I'm pretty sure they mention it again in the 5th book at the Department of Mysteries (haven't read the books for awhile). First of all, they don't carry around time turners because of that risk. Secondly, there would have been so many risks of being seen and horrible things could have happened. Lastly, after all of the things going on at that moment, who would immediately think of a time turner, considering they hadn't used one for over four years.
Harry was the main character so of course JK Rowling went in depth for his birthdays, but Ron and Hermione's birthdays were not mentioned in every single book. Harry had a lot of money and probably bought them gifts. The books were already like 600 pages so JK Rowling didn't really need to going in depth every time a character had a birthday.
Pizza wrote: "Funny how Voldemort can do ANYTHING, but Harry, a just taught, school drop-out can defeat him."It's all about the power of love dude! His mother's love is what kept Harry safe from the killing curse. That was the great difference between Voldemort and Harry. Voldemort NEVER knew love. Not one drop of it. While Harry was loved by his friends, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Fred, George, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Cho, Neville, Luna, Sirius, Lupin, Tonks, the whole Weasley family. Even though he didn't know love when he was younger from his blood family. He learned love through his friends, his real family.
It's all abour the magic of love. That's why he was able to defeat the dark lord.
And if anyone can't understand that, there's not much more that I can say.
I'm surprised that I'm the first to say this, but have any of you not considered that Brown may be trolling you? Just a thought.
They don't bother me at all.I am simply stating that it's a book for children and 'young adult' (just a term used for those sensitive for reading books for children, so, the same thing) and is solely for the telling of a story.
The fact there's some plot holes doesn't matter, because it wasn't made for people with a literary background to scrutinize and pick out every flaw in the books, because, like I said, it's for kiddies and most kiddies wouldn't even think about such things, let alone care if they did.
I agree with capsguy...it's categorized as children's fiction, so it's basically for entertainment and not for in-depth analysis (although, I for one had a misgiving in that and tried to analyze the book). Besides, I can say for myself that those plot holes didn't bother me while reading it (I was really enthralled, can't put it down and read it until 3 in the morning on a school night while I have an exam on my major subjects that morning) and were just thinking about those things right now since some people are asking it. But it's a good way of analyzing the book so I really don't mind answering those question. I just have a reminder to everyone (even to myself) DON'T OVER ANALYZE and OVER CRITICIZE..even it was greatly crafted it's just a book, so enjoy it...I was even reminded by my high school English teacher that it's a children's book and not a good thing for my book analysis, so why analyze it too much...
just saying...
Voldermort never knew love and was bad because of it.maybe the wizarding world should've given him a real home instead of systematically failing him and basically letting him be abused as a child and then putting him in the care of Albus Dumbledore, a man who has been known for having strangely close relationships to the male students in the past.
just saying
Alsosomeone please define 'evil' for me.
Morally bad or wrong; Causing ruin, injury, or pain - American Heritage DictionaryHaving or exhibiting bad moral qualities; morally corrupt; wicked; wrong; vicious - Dictionary.net
Seeing that Voldemort has done all those things, we can safely argue the point that he is evil
Are american soldiers in Iraq evil?they're killing people, causing injury and pain
are they evil?
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and this excuses the wizarding world for treating it's criminals like crap? No rehabilitation?
and also you CAN'T take that from 'in between the lines' we have absolutely no clue why Voldermort did any of the things he did and it's a major plot hole. We can't just attempt to fill it in ourselves because then we're not reading the same text as J.K Rowling wrote.
"Although it is not stated directly in the book, Voldemort wants power."
you cannot, as a reader, deduce that from the text.