Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
So, er...some questions.
Voldermort was insane, thus he wanted to rule the world. His history really pointed him in this direction. The wizard and muggle world treated him with neglect and abuse as a child. Mental illness in such a powerful wizard is never good.Maybe Harry got Ron and Hermoine birthday present outside of the story. The books don't cover everything that goes on in their lives. I think a gun would have been a good option, but maybe there was a magical problem with wizards using them.
Ah, the time travel ability would have been a possible solution, but time travel is often very messy and may have negative results. Besides wheres the fun in solving the problem so easily?
he was insane and wanted to rule the world? i totally missed the part in the story where it said that. Sure he was what can bed defined within the confines of the story as 'evil' but he just wanted to take over the world for shits 'n' giggles?It covered every birthday of Harry's where they got him a boat load of stuff.
I don't see why there'd be any magical problem with wizards handling a weapon, after all they live some of their lives as normal humans and don't encounter any problems with handling non-magical things.
The fun in solving the problem so easily? The entire wizarding world was at stake and quite a few people died.
It's a children's book.
it's actually a YA bookbut that doesn't excuse it for leaving gaping plot holes CAPSGUY
No, it doesn't say that he is insane, but he has killed I don't know how many people. Read between the lines. Of course he is mad.
Haha, I love the fact that you don't think we should blame him for being responsible for death and torture and anxiety. xDBut I get your point. It's not like he had the perfect family.
Yes, Harry got all his birthday presents. The question was why didn't Harry give Ron and Hermoine birthday present. The book doesn't cover every minute of the main character lives, so it is possible that 'off camera' so to speak that Harry gave his friends birthday presents.I consider anyone who wants to take over the world insane. The true evil being (in my opinion) has loftier goals. And in all stories many things are left unsaid and up to our cognitive processes. So I take a leap and cosider Tom Riddles' childhood a major factor in his mental health.
And you are absolutely correct, Capsguy 'It's a children's book.'
it's not a gap of a plot, it's a plot hole. something in the plot which doesn't make any sense.it seems strange that it wouldn't even give a passing reference to the birthdays of the two most important secondary characters, however.
but did Voldermort even want to take over the world? We literally have no reason given to us as to why he's doing all of this.
Ron's and Hermione's birthday has nothing to do with the story which is why they are not mentioned. Have you noticed that they never go to the toilet either? That doesn't mean that they keep it inside for a year.And yes, he wants to take over the world. He has always wanted power. When he was in school, he thought about it He asked Slughorn about horcruxes. Taking over the world is not something that just occurs to you when you wake up one morning. "Huh... today I wanna take over the world. That might be fun."
actually they do go to the toilet, both of the, both in book number 2 and in general.you say he wanted to take over the world...why?
what's the reason he did it for, most villians do it for x, y or z reasons but Voldermort literally has no reason for wanting to kill everyone, especially Harry's mother and father.
He has all the reason in the world to kill Harry's parets. They were standing in the way when he wanted to kill Harry. He wanted to kill Harry, because he had heard the prophecy that said that Harry was the only one who could kill him.
And when do they go to the toilet for the thing you usually go to the toilet for? I need an example.
chamber of secrets Hermoine says she found the toilet they create the Polyjuice Potion in when hurrying for the toilet and stumbling in there.He heard the prophecy about Harry killing him, but still, why was he being so evil? We don't even know if he WAS trying to take over the world, if he hadn't done anything and had just lived a happy and normal life do you think the prophecy would've come true? We are literally given no reason for anything voldermort does, why he's killing people in the first place, his goals etc
i don't expect every moment to be spoken about but i think the fact Harry's birthday is mentioned in every book and he doesn't even (apparently) bother to buy his two best friends presents is an important piece of character development
His goal is power.Plus he hates muggles for a reason. The kids in his orphanage thought he was a freak, and he feel like he has been let down by the wizard society when he was a child.
His goal is power?Please tell me where it says this in the book, sure he messes with some kids when he's younger but i don't think we can expand that reading to 'yeah he's killing everyone because he wants power...'
it does 'sort-of' imply it in the fourth book, yes. But already after 3 books of them showering him with gifts. And i was thinking more about the time travel thing on a wider scale, like you know, when Voldermort started killing all those people maybe they could've thought about using them.
Brown wrote: "chamber of secrets Hermoine says she found the toilet they create the Polyjuice Potion in when hurrying for the toilet and stumbling in there.He heard the prophecy about Harry killing him, but st..."
@Brown,
Due to his upbringing, Voldemort hated "muggles" and anything to do with "being a normal human". Essentially he is power hungry wizard intent on riding the world on anyone who isn't a "pure blood". Think of Hitler, really, it's no different (except one was very real and the other fictional)he has his own perception of the perfect human race (or should I say wizarding race) and will stop at nothing to gain the power necessary to see it come to pass, even though he's a half blood himself......
I was going to make a Hitler analogy as well.
Yes i'm serious, i'm pretty sure that a bullet is faster than anyone can move. disapparting or not, you'd be dead before you even had time to process what happened. Voldermort isn't immortal it's just Harry that can kill him, but i'm pretty sure that it said he'd disappear and just come back again in the future?
maybe that'd be a better alternative than entrusting the future of the wizarding world to a kid.
Guns, and other muggle weapons, would have been completely against Voldemort's entire philosophy; remember that most of his followers were pure-blood maniacs. And Harry, Ron, and Hermione smashed the entire supply of Time-Turners when they were at the Ministry at the end of the fifth book; besides, they can only go back in time if in a sense, they already have.
Brown wrote: "Yes i'm serious, i'm pretty sure that a bullet is faster than anyone can move. disapparting or not, you'd be dead before you even had time to process what happened. Voldermort isn't immortal it's ..."
@Brown, I think you might need to re-read the WHOLE series, you seem to be pretty confused about certain things.
As for the "why don't they just use guns?" question, in ANY book you read or movie you watch there is always a solution that seems obvious to the voyeur, we tend to think "well if that was me I'd do it differently", but you aren't the main character, and what may seem obvious to you wasn't obvious to the author, OR instead of ending a story in a anti-climactic way she decided to be a bit more imaginative.
P.s since he had split his soul 7 times, a bullet wouldn't have killed him.
@Palice all these things do not explain why he wants to gain power, it is never explained at all in the books why he's apparently 'evil' because he killed some people.General David Petraeus has killed thousands of people, would you say he was an 'evil' man, would you say he should he was 'insane'?
and what kind of civilised society would try to murder someone with obvious emotional and mental issues instead of rehabilitation them?
a juvenile way of reading it, you can't hedge an authors voice into any socio-historical pigeonholes
Dude.. Voldemorts mom was a F***ed up witch from a dark wizarding family.. They were a bunch of CRAZY people. Maybe he inherited some of those psychological issues. He never knew his father and he grew up in an orphanage. Voldemort has psychological issues!!!! He is INSANE. This does not need to be explained!
@Brown,I think, personally, at it's core, the book is about good and evil, love and hate and it is essentially a war between two opposing factors. You don't generally try to rehabilitate someone you're literally at war with.
Being a YA series I think he idea was to keep it pretty simple (although it has it's more complex issues).
Not talking about Voldermort using weapons such as guns, talking about the wizards who were against them. So J.K. Rowling is excused because Harry 'forgot' that he could get a gun? Isn't the Minister of Magic also in touch with the PM? Yeah he probably wouldn't have been able to help with weapons or anything.
I already said a bullet wouldn't have killed him, however it is said that in the books he won't die but will just, as he did before, go away to 'recover' as he did in Albania.
Also immortal does not = impervious to damage. It's stated that he cannot die but his physical form can be 'destroyed'
@BrownIf I remember correctly he couldn't die while parts of his soul lived, so had Harry, lets say, only destroyed 5 of them, then yes, he would be able to "recover" and come back. However, once all parts of his soul were destroyed, he did become MORTAL again, so I think it's safe to say that he won't be coming back.
Once again, with the gun, all I can say is, yes, I guess you're right, it would have made sense, but it would also have been very dull and, as I already mentioned, not nearly as imaginative as it was.
@thefreestman THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that the whole "wizards could have used guns" argument is a little narrow-minded. By this I mean I don't really think you're getting the picture of the story. It's a FANTASY series about wizards and magic - they use virtually none of the same things that non-magic people do to live, and don't know anything about the non-magical world. I think instead of worrying about why J.K. Rowling didn't write it the "easy" way with them using guns, I think you should be commending her for writing and creating such a brilliant new world with all new conventions.
On top of that, I don't understand how a gun is any different than a wand. A gun would actually be LESS effective than a wand. Using magic can do a lot more than shooting someone, and people can survive gunshots anyways. Personally, if I were fighting Voldemort, I'd rather have a wand...not a gun...
Palice wrote: "@Daisy -- that's what I said too. Who prefers guns over magic?"Seriously! If you can deflect a spell why can't you deflect a bullet? I'd rather have immediate death, torture, control, summoning, and all the other awesome things you can do with magic than a dumb little boring gun!
Palice wrote: "@Daisy -- Agree. Harry's wand was so important to him -- because of the connection. I mean really, he was mad because he didn't have his own wand to do magic with, you think he'd prefer a gun? The ..."Exactly! I completely think wand > gun. Simple as that.
Brown wrote: "Why did Voldermort want to take over the wizarding world again?why couldn't they just, you know, give some wizards a gun? i doubt Voldermort and his buddies are faster than bullets.
Remember tha..."
Voldemort wanted to take over the wizarding world, because, simply put, he's evil. And that's what evil guys do. He believed that Wizards, pure bloods that is, are superior to muggles, therefore, they should bow down him. Because he's the baddest wizard in the world.
Well, yes, wizards can be faster than bullets.
That time travel thing, is called a time turner. And since it is a very powerful item, that could be used in the wrong way in the wrong hands. Therefore it is highly regulated by the Ministry of Magic. McGonagall had to go through alot to get one for Hermione to use. Hermione had to go through strict control in order to use it. McGonagall took a big risk letting a student use it.
Sure Harry got his friends birthday gifts. But, the books would be even longer if J.K. Rowling put in EVERYONE's birthdays in the story, and EVERY gift that they got from everyone. It's not important to the story.
Anything else you want to know? And yes, I'm a Potter Geek, I know way too much. : )
Brown wrote: "he was insane and wanted to rule the world? i totally missed the part in the story where it said that. Sure he was what can bed defined within the confines of the story as 'evil' but he just wanted..."Really, with complete magical families, both parents being wizards, they don't spend much time in the muggle world. They live in magical communities, shop in Diagaon Alley. Everything in their lives is infused with magic.
Take the Weasleys, none of them knew how to use a telephone, or how many stamps to put on a letter to Harry. Arthur Weasley didn't know how much muggle money to use in the phonebooth, and he had never seen a subway until he was with Harry.
Brown wrote: "it's actually a YA bookbut that doesn't excuse it for leaving gaping plot holes CAPSGUY"
What gaping plot holes? Ask me anyting? If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.
Capsguy wrote: "It's a children's book."I hope this dosen't sound rude, but Capsguy, have you read the books? Because, they may have been targeted towards children. But actually they are pretty deep. I am constantly explaining things about these books to children, because sometimes they don't grasp the deeper meanings.
Felicia wrote: "Ron's and Hermione's birthday has nothing to do with the story which is why they are not mentioned. Have you noticed that they never go to the toilet either? That doesn't mean that they keep it ins..."Well said about the birthdays.
And, I am LOL about the bathroom! : )
Palice wrote: "Bullets? Are you serious? These people have giants, dementors, and they can apparate, disapparate, slow down object, explode them, block them and all that crap. You really think they could make it ..."Exactly Palice! The prophecy actually dosen't mention Harry at all. It just says, (not exact words) that the one who has the power to defeat him is being born.
Well, two babies were born very close to the same time when the prophecy was made. Harry Potter and, believe it or not, Neville Longbottom.
By Voldemort acting on the prophcy, he made it come true. I can't remember exactly why he chose Harry over Neville, but it had something to do with the fact that he saw the Potters as a more formidible foes, so he just kinda took a guess.
If he had done nothing, and ignored the prophcy, the stories wouldn't even exsist. (wrap your mind around that one)
If he had chosen Neville, well the stories would be much different. Plus, they would be called Neville Longbottom and the Sorcerer's Stone. etc.
And If I remember correctly, Bellatrix tortured Neville's parents on Voldemorts orders, to try to get some sort of clue, that it may be their son, that the prophecy was mentioning.
This is why these books are not exactly "Children's Books."
Daisy wrote: "Palice wrote: "@Daisy -- Agree. Harry's wand was so important to him -- because of the connection. I mean really, he was mad because he didn't have his own wand to do magic with, you think he'd pre..."I agree too. I'd rather have a wand in a dark scary ally anyday over a gun!
Lindis wrote: By Voldemort acting on the prophcy, he made it come true. I can't remember exactly why he chose Harry over Neville, but it had something to do with the fact that he saw the Potters as a more formidible foes, so he just kinda took a guess. It's because both he and Harry are half-bloods. Something like that, it was explained by Dumbledore in the fifth book I guess, about Voldemort going after an innocent baby, acting upon it that makes the prophecy real...something like that.
Brown wrote: "Why did Voldermort want to take over the wizarding world again?"Because even as a child he is addicted to power. He wants to be someone special not just some ordinary Tom (remember the time when Dumbledore informed him that he is a wizard). I guess it's also the fact that he felt neglected by both of his parents, the whole time that he feels it's his dad who is the wizard because his mom is not strong enough to live for him. It's the feeling that he is destined for greatness because he wants to be known as a great wizard (just my opinion)..
Remember that time travel thing they used in the 3rd book? Maybe that would've come in handy when everyone started dying towards the end, must've slipped their minds huh?
All time turners were destroyed when they had the battle in the department of mysteries. Plus things inevitable can't be worked around, more terrible things would just happen.
Why did Harry never get Ron or Hermoine anything for their birthdays? I think he got Ron something once, but apart from that?
Their birthdays are not relevant to the plot, why waste space for something that doesn't add anything to the story
i'd honestly have a gun rather than a wand, especially when i know that they're potentially more deadly than having to blurt out a spell (even if you can use a spell without speaking) no human is faster than a bullet even apparition takes a half-turn.the time turners were destroyed, yes, but i think they may have used them, oh you know, when they realised Voldermort was apparently 'evil' although we're given no reason for this. After all, war generals have ordered the deaths of many more people than him and they're honoured for it.
yeah because every single detail in the story was absolutly relevant, like all of Harry's birthdays.
list of gaping plot holes:
How does Voldermort get the same wand he had as a kid?
How did the magic Basin get re-filled with the potion Dumbledore drank after Regulus drank it and replaced the lockets?
How come Harry couldn't see the thestrals on the way home at the end of the fourth book?
Why couldn't Harry see the Thestrals on the way home at the end of the fourth book?
If Harry's survival is one of a kind, how do the whole wizarding, in a short time after it happened, figure out that Voldemort is "dead" and Harry survived a Killing Curse?
If Harry's survival of Voldermort's curse is one of a kind, how does the rest of the wizarding world figure out that Voldermort is 'dead' and that Harry survived a killing curse?
When Harry breaks into Umbridges office to speak to Sirius why didn't Sirius just tell him to get out and use the mirror he gave him?
How did the students see Venus during the midnight Astronomy exam? When as a planet it is only visible shortly after sunset and shortly before sunrise.
Hagrid. Giant for a dad. Human for a mum. Just think about it.
these are just a few but there's tons more.
Ever since he got on the Hogwarts train Voldemort had it all. His issue was that he always wanted more. And that "more" eventually became the whole world.I look at him as a version of Harry. Their circumstances were almost equal. Voldemort is the villain Harry would be expected to become if he wasn't essentially good. Neglected and bullied kids don't normally turn out to be this heroic or even kind persons.
Remember the statue in the Ministry of Magic in the seventh book? Wizards tread on people. Voldemort might have been insane, nefarious and certainly would use anything in his favor, but he despised muggles. I don't think he made an exception with their technology.
And of course Time-Turners had to be destroyed. They were one of the weakest points of the plot. Regarding them the infinite question would be why didn't it occur to Harry (or to anyone else for that matter) to go back and save James and Lily? Rowling was lucky to get away with this flaw.
It is true that it is never stated that "Voldemort killed because he wanted power." However, some things can be taken from in between the lines. Once he finds out he has powers, he uses them to manipulate other people. It can be inferred that he is a sociopath because he feels no remorse. When he firsts meets Dumbledore in the orphanage in the sixth book, he talks about he make bad things happen to people. That is the first thing he tried to do when he realized the power he had. That is his natural instinct. This is all due to what happened to him in his childhood. He has no parents and he is left to live in an orphanage. He does not know what is happening to him and everyone at the orphanage calls him a freak and keeps their distance. The anger builds up and he uses hurting people as an outlet. This gives him power and he becomes a dominant alpha male. This personality follows him through his entire life. Although it is not stated directly in the book, Voldemort wants power. As for Ron and Hermione's birthdays, they are not as significant as Harry's birthday. Harry's birthday is significant because he does not have a real family, and he has never gotten actual presents before. When his birthday comes along and he gets presents from his friends, it signifies the point in his life when he finally has found a family, when he has found people who love him. Ron and Hermione have always had people who love them, but it is different for Harry.
The series was originally aimed for children, so there are no guns to begin with. As Harry grew up, the audience grew up as well. As a YA series, it would be more accepted to use guns. However, the series is about a magical world where problems are not solved with guns. While the series is supposed to connect to the muggle world, all of the readers, problems are not supposed to solved in a muggle fashion. That is the beauty of a magical world. It gives the opportunity for different ways to solve problems. In the case of Harry Potter, they use spells. If you are going to bring in the point of using guns, why didn’t they use a computer in the first book to research more about the stone and about Flamel? Because it is a magical world where things are done differently.
Regarding the time turner, it was already mentioned that messing with time is very dangerous. The circumstances were extremely different and the use of a time turner would have required there to be less people. A time turner was used in PoA because not as many people were around, so there were not as many people to hide from.
The fact that people died in the end is part of what connects the series to the real world. Death is a fact of life, and the series was never supposed to be a happy-go-lucky story. Death is a major theme in the series and it is also what keeps the story going. It all started when James and Lily died, and if they hadn’t, the story would not be there. When Cedric died, it was all part of showing what Voldemort was capable of. It was showing his power even if he was not the one doing the deed. Both Sirius and Dumbledore died because they were both father figures for Harry. A father is one who protects his child, and it is known that Harry would have to fight alone in the end. Hedwig was a symbol of Harry’s innocence, so her death signified the end of Harry’s innocence. These three deaths were inevitable and had to happen at some point. All the other deaths just bring the story back into reality. It is really sad and I wish they all hadn’t died, but they died fighting for a good cause, something that they believed in.
Answers:How does Voldermort get the same wand he had as a kid?
His loyal Death Eaters kept it safe for him while he was in hiding. Most of the magical world thought him to be dead. Some believed that he MAY come back someday. Only his very loyal Death Eaters knew where he was. Peter Pettegrew was there when it all happened, he was the one that betrayed the Potters. It's not really said in the books, but we understand, or maybe assume that he kept it save. After all he was the one that had it when Voldemort came back, Peter gave it to him.
Caitlin wrote: "It is true that it is never stated that "Voldemort killed because he wanted power." However, some things can be taken from in between the lines. Once he finds out he has powers, he uses them to man..."@Caitlin
Very Well Said!!!!
Answers:How did the magic Basin get re-filled with the potion Dumbledore drank after Regulus drank it and replaced the lockets?
This is all part of the magic of these books. You really have to read between the lines. Use your logic, think like the wizards!
Voldemort was evil, but brilliant. The protection that he put around the locket was meant to ward of several would be thieves, anyone that came accross the locket would die. The protection wasn't put there to keep just one person away. A one time use kind of thing. What would be the point? Therefore it's logical to say that the potion surrounding the locket refilled once empty. There are spells that can do that. One of Voldemorts flaws it that he greatly underestimates the talent and power of any other wizards (Dumbledore, Regulus and Harry)
Anyone that drank the potion was supposed to die, therefore they would not be able to get the locket. It would refill waiting for it's next victim.
@LindisVery insightful! I had always wondered about that, and this was one of my theories, but I had never gone into this much depth. Thank you for this.
Lindis wrote: "Answers:How did the magic Basin get re-filled with the potion Dumbledore drank after Regulus drank it and replaced the lockets?
This is all part of the magic of these books. You really have to..."
So magic did it?
huh.
What a cop out.
Funny how Voldemort can do ANYTHING, but Harry, a just taught, school drop-out can defeat him.
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why couldn't they just, you know, give some wizards a gun? i doubt Voldermort and his buddies are faster than bullets.
Remember that time travel thing they used in the 3rd book? Maybe that would've come in handy when everyone started dying towards the end, must've slipped their minds huh?
Why did Harry never get Ron or Hermoine anything for their birthdays? I think he got Ron something once, but apart from that?