Can a good book truly be spoiled?

[Tamahome]

I've seen a lot of spoiler tags lately, especially for The Wise Man's Fear. So I put it to you, can a good book truly be spoiled? By a good book, I mean one that you wouldn't mind rereading.

[Brandon]

I do it out of respect for people who are already reading the book but havent finished.

That said-I think depending on the book, yes it can drastically reduce enjoyment. It may not be a big deal for Wise mans fear for instance, but others (books with an ending for example) it can hurt the experience.

There is this feeling when a truly good mystery is revealed, and you cant ever get that again, and its kind of incomparable.

[Kevin]

I think that The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man's Fear is so over hyped that it does spoiled the book in me not giving it a higher rating. The problem with this series of books is that everyone wants to discuss the books when ever its bought up because everyone loves the book to death. For example, in a book club I belong to here on Goodread, even though the club has read the book in the past, just because someone nominated I think in part because The Wise Man's Fear finally came out, readers has nominated to be discussed again.

[Colin]

I am always reminded of that Simpsons episode where homer walks out of Empire Strikes Back and spoils it for the folks waiting in line.

I'd only do that to my worst enemy.

[Kris]

The whole spoiler warning thing is out of control to me. Don't participate in the discussion if there is salient points you don't want to know other wise enjoy the discussion offered and it will enhance the book in a different way. I think there is more to a good read then just knowing plot points and yes I understand that there is a tension that goes with reading the book the first time but it still doesn't destroy the reading all together if you knew the ending ahead of time. I also don't think that gratuitously saying something just because you can, like Colin mentions, isn't the right thing to do either. If I am going to read the thread about the Wise Man's Fears and I haven't read the book then I assume I will read things about the plot but that is a decision I make. The participants shouldn't feel the need to have to censor their comments when the discussion is about a book they read. JMTC

[Deborah]

Of course it can. I don't reread.

[Kevin]

Adrienne wrote: "I think it depends on the person, as well as on the book. If someone had told me the end of Ender's Game, for instance, I would have been pretty upset, as that was a big part of what I originally enjoyed about it. I have re-read it and still enjoyed it, but for different reasons."

Here is the funny part about Ender's Game, if a person first read its companion novel, Ender's Shadow or the other way around, they would already know the end. I am justing wondering then would a person be more upset for that?

[Chris]

Well this has happened to me in the last few weeks with the movies Titanic and The Gospel of John. I was going to watch them but I had friends ruin them for me by telling me the ending of them.

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

For me, the best fiction (films, tv series) is that which you don't want spoiled when experiencing it for the first time - because you're so engrossed by seeing how things unfold - and which when you re-visit, you still enjoy and can get new things out of, even though you know what's going to happen.

In terms of discussions here, spoiler warnings were specifically asked for by several people in the Shadow & Claw section - they wanted to participate in the discussion but didn't want to be spoiled by stuff they hadn't read yet.

A spoiler warning seems the best policy and really serves both parties: those who don't care about spoilers will read it anyway, those who care about spoilers can avoid and won't get pissed off.

[Brandon]

Kris wrote: "The whole spoiler warning thing is out of control to me. Don't participate in the discussion if there is salient points you don't want to know other wise enjoy the discussion offered and it will en..."

I completely disagree. The Wise Mans Fear thread started out as "hey guys its on sale" then how long the book is, and i feel like that stuff is still welcome in that thread. It is so simple to drop in spoiler tags, or avoid the issue entirely.

If more people feel that putting spoiler tags is that big of a deal, then make a discussion with spoiler in the headline.

[Kris]

Brandon wrote: "Kris wrote: "The whole spoiler warning thing is out of control to me. Don't participate in the discussion if there is salient points you don't want to know other wise enjoy the discussion offered a..."

and you didn't need some "Spoiler" warning to realize that so there you go....

[Brandon]

Kris wrote:and you didn't need some "Spoiler" warning to realize that so there you go....

I dont understand what you mean.

What im saying is, most discussion dont start out-Hey guys lets discuss deep plot points and how this worked out for this character- It leads naturally into those topics because they are the most interesting. So one second your reading about how far this person is, or how this person just finished the book, then suddenly someone is talking about the ending, or this trippy part in the middle.

Let me give you an example. The prestige-a very popular book, and movie. They go through this entire experience knowing this character, the author goes to great lengths to trick you into thinking one way, and then the curtain is pulled back and you were completely wrong. That is an amazing feeling, and one you shouldn't willfully take away from a person for lack of a little HTML.

[Kris]

Brandon wrote: "Kris wrote:and you didn't need some "Spoiler" warning to realize that so there you go....

I dont understand what you mean.

What im saying is, most discussion dont start out-Hey guys lets discus..."

I agree with you...but your example isn't what this is about.

[Veronica, Supreme Sword]

(view spoiler)[why don't we just use the spoiler tag? (hide spoiler)]

[Skip]

Veronica wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

I reply: (view spoiler)[Because html is hard. ;) (hide spoiler)]

There really are two separate questions here. The first is taking the title literally, can you write something so good that even knowing the ending doesn't affect the reader's enjoyment. The second question implied by the question is "Do people go overboard about spoilers?"

The first question can be paired down to the sword and laser genre. Non-fiction is usually read by people that know the ending, and on the other end of the spectrum, mystery readers generally don't ever want to be spoiled. I don't mind being spoiled mostly. I don't havea lot of time to read for fun, and I would rather know I am going to like a book before I start it.

The second question is partly one of personal preference and partly one of etiquette. Obviously everyone has their own preference and they are welcome to be spoiled or not. So how much should we have to hide in our discussions? I would suggest that news posts would have more sensitivity to spoilers than discussion posts. Unless a book in a series is just published I wouldn't expect spoiler protection on later books in the series. Having separate posts for spoiler and non-spoiler content tends to get lost very quickly unless they are both busy enough to stay on top of the list.

That said, I'm going to go spoiler tag my comment in the new Dresden Files book news post.

[Michael]

While all of these arguments for/against spoiler posts are interesting, it's really not hard to use the spoiler tag, and it saves many people a lot of aggravation ;)

[Sandi]

One of the things I run into is that what one person considers a spoiler, another doesn't. Obviously, if you give away the ending of the movie "The Sixth Sense" or the twist in Shutter Island, you're spoiling it. That doesn't mean it's less enjoyable. I saw the movie of Shutter Island knowing what the twist was and I still enjoyed it a lot. I liked picking up the clues and figuring out how the twist would come. When I read the book, I had a lot of fun picking apart the details that would lead to the twist. I enjoyed watching "The Sixth Sense" more the second time when I could look for the clues.

In general, I'm not really sensitive to what is a spoiler and what isn't. For example, the discussion of Shadow & Claw on the podcast revealed that some things in the setting weren't what they were purported to be and that you could tell what they were if you read closely enough. Was it really a spoiler to say that (view spoiler)[the towers were rockets (hide spoiler)]?

I also wonder what the statute of limitations is on spoilers. I'm re-reading Jane Eyre right now. Is it really spoiled if you know going in that (view spoiler)[Mr. Rochester has his crazy wife locked up in the attic (hide spoiler)]? The book was published in 1847 for goodness sake. Can it be spoiled?

[Brandon]

I agree, but i think there is a statute of limitations, or at least a breaking point haha. The sixth sense is a perfect example. Its either so old or so commonly spoiled its acceptable. Its kind of a bit to spoil it now.
Saying you enjoyed it more the second time is cool, but the only reason you are able to say that is because you were able to watch it correctly, the way it was intended the first time.

As i said, there is this moment, and for me this moment is bliss, when the curtain is pulled back on a great mystery or question, or something unexpected happens. Maybe its because its so rare that i cant guess what it is, or where the story is going but i love it.

[Micah]

Veronica wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

You just blew my mind. I did not know we could do that....so I might be a simpleton....but still mind=blown!!!

[Treetop]

(view spoiler)[Spoiler tags (view spoiler)[inside of spoiler tags (view spoiler)[in a thread about spoilers! (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] Oh My!

[Skip]

Heh, that's like TOR's April Fools joke about Brandon Sanderson blogging about his re-reads of Leigh Butler's WoT re-reads.

Very meta Treetop.

[Sandi]

So, how do you decide if something is spoilerish or not?

[Michael]

It's pretty subjective. Another good practice, I think, is for someone sensitive to spoilers on a topic just avoid discussion on it entirely until they're caught up.

Obviously, you can't do that for everything, but I can tell you that I skipped every mention of Dragon Age II on podcasts, magazines, websites, etc as I could. Even a reveal of a potential character in that story would "spoil" it for me, even though it's not something many would consider a spoiler. So I just avoid it.

[Skip]

Sandi wrote: "So, how do you decide if something is spoilerish or not?"

If something I care about is coming out, I see or read it on the day and date of release. If I don't care enough to get something when it comes out, I rarely care if I get spoiled.

I see the need to avoid spoilers in news stories. People want to know the news about something but they don't necessarily want to also know plot points or even characters.

Most discussions though I see little need to protect people from spoilers, even spoilers from other series of books. Some people and forums set up spoiler-allowed and spoiler-free discussion zones, and I tend not to fully participate in either of them. It all too quickly becomes too confusing, and people making good points on one thread tend to get lost if they don't cross post (which is its own headache).

Just my two cents, and I'm near the end of my yearly sleep deprivation exercise, so if I make no sense I blame the Department of Treasury.

[Brian]

I had been thinking about posting a thread like this for some time; thanks for the topic.

Spoilers don’t bother me; in fact sometimes I seek them out. Everyone is free to have their own opinion; and I can understand some people being more sensitive than others, but when I reading so many spoiler whiners I laugh and think they are too anal.

[Tom, Supreme Laser]

I have to jump in and answer the main question of this thread, which is not when is it ok to spoil, but can a story be so good that spoiling doesn't matter. And I think that a good book cannot truly be spoiled, but you can significantly change the experience of reading it.

Think of re-reading a book with a big twist at the end. If you know the ending but the book is good, you still will re-read. Same goes for movies. Anybody watch Empire more than once? The spoiler didn't matter.

But if you're spoiled before the first time you read, it changes the tension. You know what's coming. So it's a different kind of read. Sometimes authors will actually spoil you in their own book on purpose, because they want you to have that different kind of read. This is called foreshadowing sometimes.

I don't like spoilers because it subverts the purpose of the author in how the story is unfolded, but a good story can often survive a spoiler or two.

[Micah]

Tom wrote: "I don't like spoilers because it subverts the purpose of the author in how the story is unfolded, but a good story can often survive a spoiler or two. "

I totally agree. Especially if the entire story revolves around the twist. Like the movie "Fight Club." if you knew the twist the movie would probably still be great but in an entirely different way.

[Skip]

I completely agree about "Fight Club". I first watched it on DVD and when the movie ended I just started it back up to watch again. It also has a great commentary track.

I actually get much more worked up about poor foreshadowing than I ever do about spoilers. Bad foreshadowing leaves me either bored because there is no tension to the plot, or irritated that the author feels the need to hit us over the head about something so we poor readers don't miss the big payoff.

Knowing a spoiler can occasionally heighten the tension for me because, just like good foreshadowing, you want to see how the author gets the character(s) from where they are to where they are going.

It's like good close-up magic - the magician tells you exactly what they are going to do, you know it is a trick, but you still can't figure out how they did it. A good author doesn't need to hide things to be good, but yes the effect is different.

I would be interested to see how spoiler concern correlates with reading speed. I would think the more time you invest in something the more spoiler adverse you would be. Not that I'm saying that it would be the primary determinant, I'm sure interest would be the largest factor, it always is.

The debate over what is or isn't a spoiler is always going to a tough nut to crack because it is so subjective to begin with. Take something like the [mild spoiler from the end of [book:The Fires of Heaven|13895]](view spoiler)[subject of Asmodean's killer. (hide spoiler)] The author never considered the issue to be a big secret to the reader, but he didn't reveal who it was necessarily either. When the subject was finally resolved it wasn't even in the body of the book, but in the index. [Mild spoiler to clarify from [book:Towers of Midnight|7082820]](view spoiler)[The killer is identified in the book itself, but only obliquely. You have to stop and add up the people referred to in a comment. The index states it straight out. (hide spoiler)] I've tagged it because many people would consider the answer a spoiler even if the author didn't. I also didn't post the answer, because I didn't need to spoil it to make my point.

[aldenoneil]

Skip wrote: "Mild spoiler from the end of The Fires of Heaven"

Jordan has the unenviable habit of not solving mysteries for the reader until they no longer care (or remember).