Terminalcoffee discussion
Rants / Debates (Serious)
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Question about sexual assault definitions and punishments
That is just...odd.I would assume that any person putting their hand in someone else's pants while said person is passed out would be committing a huge no-no.
Then again, I have no idea how this works "legally" and that's what you're asking.
The kissing and retiring to the bedroom could imply consent. Was the woman actually unconscious at the time of touching? Did she ever say "no" or otherwise indicate that the attention was unwanted?
woman reports she was drunk and asleep. when the incident occurred she thought she was dreaming it.
That's a horrible story. A wrong was obviously committed, but what recourse might exist and how one might best proceed seem like questions that require expert knowledge of the laws in the jurisdiction and of the mechanics of the legal system. Contacting the police would seem wise, also an attorney who specializes in cases involving sexual assault.
Hmm, tough one, but To use the "I was drunk" defense (which is real and those quotation marks are not mocking), the woman would have to be "physically helpless" and would have had to have been unable to consent due to this physical helplessness. The fact that she was able to get up and go to the bathroom kind of trashes that.
If he was forceful, that's a different story.
EDIT Yeah, it's a crime. I was getting my terms mixed up... being drunk in Oregon is a reduced mental capacity. One cannot consent to due impaired mental capacity.
It's a felony sexual assault in Oregon. It would be tough to get a jury conviction.
Also, laws vary by state and the enforcement varies by county.
the police were contacted by the woman 3 weeks after the incident. the man went to the police station and admitted everything in the first post. on video, without a lawyer.
smetchie wrote: "the police were contacted by the woman 3 weeks after the incident. the man went to the police station and admitted everything in the first post. on video, without a lawyer."Well shit.
I have nothing solid to contribute that hasn't been said already... just, I'm fascinated at how this thread discussion is developing.
in many states it is considered a sexual assautl. Drunkeness impairs the ability to legally consent. Having any sexual contact with an unconscious person is in many states a sexual assault. It is also why having sex with someone learning disabled is also considered a sexual assault. For it to be considered "rape" there usually has to be penetration (not necessarily with a penis, fingers count). Finding a prosecutor willing to bring it to court is something else again. Which is why women do not report many forms of sexual assault. Ridicule, humiliation, embarrassment, harrassment, doubt, self-blame (usually because of prior societal attitudes towards sexual assault: it's the woman's fault, she asked for it, she put herself in a dangerous situation..." Don't get me started. Heard too many stories during my years with the Women's Crises Service. And for all you married men out there: wives have the right to say "no" (many stories from married women too).
Jonathan wrote: "No charges were brought?"I know the answer to this but I'm really trying to get an unbiased answer from someone who knows about the law as to whether the scenario I stated is, indeed, sexual assault. I'm pretty sure "attempted fingering" isn't on the books anywhere but what do I know?
Thanks Michele!
I've edited post 6... it took me a while to put my "Sex Crimes" hat back on...
Mod
Whether or not, if charges are brought, they can survive the legal process, is another matter. And yes, it does depend on what state we're talking about.
Where is Dutchy from?I can't add any more to this thread that hasn't already been said, and personally I feel the man should have jail time, so I'll just go with that question.
Dutchie's from Canada, Rachel.And yes, I agree that charges are more likely than a conviction, because while LG's right and it's a matter of non-consent, it's still very he-said/she-said and hard to prove.
He admitted everything to police and I think he has been charged with sexual assault. He confessed on video because he didn't realize he'd done anything illegal. I believe his perception was very much like what Barb supposed. I'm really curious about the line of the law in this situation. I have to say that if the scenario I described is sexual assault, for me personally, I think we may have taken things a bit too far. No one drugged her. No one forced her to get drunk. She's not a minor. I don't mean to sound insensitive to the fact that the woman clearly feels like she was assaulted. But if we're talking about laws I think we kind of have to be a bit removed from feelings.
it could be an asshole trying to take advantage of a drunk woman.Is that illegal? Should it be?
I've always found it interesting that a victim can be too drunk to consent, but a perp can't be too drunk to have clouded judgement as well.
I'm not saying that being drunk is a proper defense, and it cerainly doesn't mean "no harm, no foul". I just think it's interesting.I'm talking about a situation such as this... where the victim and perp are drunk. Let's say PRECISELY equally drunk:
They make out at a party... she goes to the room, he follows, he puts his hand down her pants, she is NOT wearing a tampon and they have sex. Three weeks later, she says she didn't consent because she was drunk. What was he? Was he a consenting adult? They are equally drunk... it's just weird to me.
Which is what the law says. Don't have sex with someone who is drunk. Don't give someone who is drunk the keys to your car. Don't let someone who is drunk write you a check for the contents of their bank account and then go and try to cash it. A drunk person is not competent to be making decisions. So don't make them. Put your keys in a bowl, give your checkbook to a friend, and keep your damn pants on.Yes.. all of this YES!
I think this nicely sums up all of the stuff my mom tried to teach me in high school/college.
she gave permission/consent for the kissing nothing else. he presumed too much. this is why women do not report rape/sexual assauls. it's always their fault as comments here prove. if every woman who has ever been sexually assaulted blew a whistle at the same time the noise would deafen everyone. Men: never assume, never presume.
There were 33 comments before yours. Which ones, specifically, said "it was her fault?"There were many that said bad choices were made all around, and several that said there could be a case made against him. I must have skipped past the ones you're talking about.
I would also like to distinguish between what is "wrong" and what is "illegal." I understand the woman must have felt she was wronged or she wouldn't be bringing charges. But was there a crime? There is a point where we take it too far and I think that lends to a perception that women can't take care of themselves and need the law to do it for them. I don't appreciate that.
Michele wrote: "she gave permission/consent for the kissing nothing else. Here's the thing though, Michele... given the story that Smetchie gave, we aren't privy to what she gave permission for.
We've been told they were kissing. We've been told she went to bed and he followed, but we don't know if that means that he walked behind her down the hall or if he went to the room 10 minutes later. We know that he put his hand down her pants, but we don't know if she was coherent at the time.
What we're running into in this thread is the exact thing that makes prosecuting sex crimes in a "he said/she said" situation so difficult. As I've said before, yes, in Oregon, a sexual assault as defined by law has occured.
Whether this would be able to make it past grand jury to trial and then whether a jury would actually convict is the tricky part.
And no, I'm not blaming the victim. It's a shitty thing to do and leads to someone being victimized more than once, which is a tragedy. However, it is also my experience that assuming every man who has been charged with a sex crime is indeed a creepy sex offender is something that should be avoided as well.
Mod
The legal system will decide whether or not a crime happened, regardless of what this woman thinks.
As for whether or not this woman could take care of herself, it seems that she could up to the point that she passed out. The law is protecting the woman who can't take care of herself because she is incapacitated and can't consent to a sexual act.
I want to point out that just because a woman kisses a guy does not mean she wants to take things further. She consented to the kissing. period.
I don't believe that she was passed. If she said she thought it was a dream than yes she was drunk to a point of her inhibitions being compromised, but passed out no. I would say that yes this could be considered sexual assault if she was the only one who had drunken enough to have impaired judgment. I don’t think he will be convicted because there is no way to prove that he wasn’t just as drunk as her.
suggest everyone check out Shakesville: rape culture 101. The only reason the guy pulled back was because he found the tampon. So he had some reasoning left. Using this argument, we should not blame drunks for driving because they were too impaired to understand they were commiting a crime by driving a car! If he were that drunk then he would not be able to achieve an erection.
As a woman, I don't think this is assault. Not unless it was made clear to stop. Wow. If she is passed out then how can she possibly know he fingered her? And if you're drunk you can't consent? That is a complete cop out. If you choose inebriation then you have to accept the consequences of your behaviour when in that state.Just like drinking and driving.
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But if she's passed out then how does she know if or who assaulted her?I agree if she's passed out then she can't consent but I don't agree with not being able to consent just because she's drunk. If you're caught drinking and driving or doing any illegal activity while intoxicated do you think you can use the excuse that your judgement is impaired?
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I agree if she's passed out then she can't consent but I don't agree with not being able to consent just because she's drunk..."
The man gave his side of what happened to the police, and based on that, they charged him with sexual assault.
If you're speaking purely in hypothetical terms, then if a woman is passed out, she wouldn't necessarily know if she had been assaulted.
Lila, you're conflating two separate instances of drunkenness. In one, a woman is drunk and is sexually assaulted; here, she is the victim. In the second case, a woman (or person) is drunk and drives. Here, she is not a victim, she is a perpetrator. Impaired judgment doesn't enter into the legal calculus in either situation: we're not supposed to blame the woman, once we're in court, for making a bad decision to get drunk, pass out, and be in a position not to be aware of someone assaulting her. The drunk driver, in court, is not excused from punishment because he/she had impaired judgment from being drunk.
I still love the term "off your face." Even if it does lead to an attempted wrongful fingering.(I'm sorry! I'm sorry! Please no hate mail. I don't mean to make light of sexual assault. For some reason I just cannot pass up an opportunity to make a mockery of attempted fingering.)
attempted wrongful fingeringSomewhere, sometime, someplace in my life, I will find an excuse to use this phrase.
How long did she pass out? Did she actually pass out or was it just because she thought she was dreaming it? Did she say no or do anything to let him know she didn't want him touching her? Was she unresponsive while he was touching her? Did he know she was passed out? And if he did, did he stop when he realized it or keep going? I don't know what to make of it honestly.
Phew...this is a touchy subject! But, if a girl is making out with a guy, obviously she has consented to that. Right? Now, taking the drunk factor out, how is a guy ever supposed to know how far he can get without trying? Did every guy you've ever been with ask permission for each move he made? I was always overly cautious when I was young and probably made those moves very slowly looking for any reaction at all to know whether or not it was permitted. If trying is a crime, then every adolescent male with a heartbeat is a sexual predator! Now, lets put the drunk back in the situation. Were her reaction times slow? Did he just dive right in before she had a chance to tell him no? Who knows. We don't have the details and this is where it gets REALLY sketchy. Without these very important details, NO ONE can pass judgement on either. The he said/she said is a slippery slope. One can only guess intentions and his could have been shitty (some asshat trying to get some while she's drunk) or not (he likes her, thinks she likes him and so far it's consensual)
In Virginia, sexual assault includes "any sexual conduct that a person is forced into without his or her consent" In 7th grade when I tried to get to second base in the back row of the movie theater and she pushed my hand away, I stopped.If she hadn't pushed my hand away and I had succeeded, could she have then 3 days later turned me in to the police?
What's second base again? boob touching?
First base: french kissing
Second base: groping
Third base: oral
Fourth base: fucking
Second base: groping
Third base: oral
Fourth base: fucking
Okay so, Esme, on second you have to keep your foot on the bag, right? And sliding into 3rd ... how does that work?
Second is just a lot of feeling up. Doesn't matter how or where.
And third is centered around blowjobs.
And third is centered around blowjobs.
Times have changed then because when I was a teen, 2nd was strictly boob action, and 3rd base was below the belt hand action.
1)a man and woman are at a party drunk and kissing. woman goes into a bedroom to pass out. man follows and gets in bed with her. man puts hand in woman's pants, notices she is wearing a tampon, withdraws hand. woman gets up and goes into the bathroom. man leaves and goes back to the party.
Is that felony sexual assault as far as the legal system is concerned?