Buddy Read of the Henry II and Eleanor trilogy by Sharon Kay Penman

[Darkpool]

Finally starting Time and Chance today. It seems a very long time since I read "While Christ.." (and it was years ago, because I recall particularly wanting to visit Lincoln when I was in the UK in 1997 on account of having read about it in the book), but I'm sure the pertinent details will creep back once I start T&C.

[Melissa]

So I finished Time and Chance a couple days ago, but didn't think to leave out Devil's Brood before I started packing so now I've got to wait until July to start it. I'm looking forward to seeing how it's going for everyone else though.

[Cristyn]

I just finished Saints yesterday, and started T&C last night! Loving it. I had a hard time in the middle of Saints getting through all the different battle with Maude and Stephen. I stopped for a few days and then got back into it.

I was pleasantly surprised the concubines name was Cristyn...I don't see many actual spellings of my name...and never in a book!

[Melissa]

Time has a very different feel to it than Saints, so if you found the 1st one hard to get through the 2nd might be easier for you. I felt like it was more about the personal relationships between characters than Saints.

[Christine]

I agree - T&C definitely had a different feel to it (less battles more interpersonal relationships) and it did go pretty fast.

[Victoria_Grossack]

Am 50% of the way into Here be Dragons - a remark which probably doesn't belong in this thread but I can't see where else to put it.

[ladywallingford]

I'm insanely late but I'm finally starting Time and Chance, which happens to be my favorite of the Henry and Eleanor trilogy. I'm curious to see if this will still hold true the second time around.

[Misfit]

Sorry to go slightly OT, but I thought I'd pop a note to you all that copies of Sharon's new book in this series, Lionheart are up for giveaways at Goodreads and Librarything.

[Christine]

Misfit wrote: "Sorry to go slightly OT, but I thought I'd pop a note to you all that copies of Sharon's new book in this series, Lionheart are up for giveaways at Goodreads and Librarything."

Thanks for the heads up - I did enter but am pre-ordered on Kindle just in case :)

[Laura]

Well, I am about 2/3 done with The Devil's Brood. I guess I did not realize just how much the boys did not get along. I think any other book that I've read in the past has focused on Eleanor so I don't think I had a good picture of Hal, Richard and Geoffrey. I wonder if they would have been at each other's throats so much if they would have been given more autonomy in rulling what they had been "given" - if they would have been satisfied with that.

They didn't really focus on why Eleanor was held captive for so many years either. I don't know if if I just had a picture in my head that Eleanor and Henry just didn't get along and didn't think about it. I like though how we get into Henry's head and learn that while he hasn't really forgiven Eleanor, he's learned to understand why she did what she did. At least where I'm at right now in the book they seem to have made a little peace with each other.

[Cristyn]

Almost done with T&C...I have Devil's Brood waiting in my library bag...checked it out Friday thinking I'd be done with T&C over the weekend. Loving these books....can't wait to see what's to come!!!

[Sharon]

Thanks, Cristyn; I'm so glad you are enjoying the trilogy. BTW, are you Welsh? Cristyn is the Welsh spelling for your name and was the name of Llywelyn Fawr's concubine!

[Cristyn]

Sharon wrote: "Thanks, Cristyn; I'm so glad you are enjoying the trilogy. BTW, are you Welsh? Cristyn is the Welsh spelling for your name and was the name of Llywelyn Fawr's concubine!"

Both my mom and I were surprised to see a Cristyn in your book. You really don't see it that often. No I'm not Welch...1/2 Scottish...so just called my mom to see where they got the name. She said that since her name is Lynda...so wanted something with a different spelling. She tried a bunch of spelling and just settled on Cristyn. She to her...she just made it up.

Finally into Devil's Brood...I can hardly put it down!!

[Melissa]

Cristyn wrote: "Finally into Devil's Brood..."

Me too, I just got a chance to pick it up a few days ago. I don't know why it took me so long to pick up, maybe it's just my copy, but is it the tiniest writing ever?

[Cristyn]

O yeah...the type is smaller than the last two.

I'm just over 100 pages in...I know there is a lot to still to come...but WOW!! I tend to be a "stand by your man" girl, Eleanor amazes me by her actions. I can understand her reasoning...but still, she's been knocked of my pedestal. I'm hoping she'll climb back up it soon.

We've been doing some family research and I can't wait to see what happens with John....he's my 23rd Great Grandfather.

[Melissa]

How exciting to find that out Cristyn. I've done my fair share of family research and only gotten back to the 1500's or so, and I'm not related to anyone of particular consequence. I think it would probably make me much more invested in a book if it were about someone in my family, especially because if things had been just a little different, and they maybe died sooner or married someone else, you could have turned out to be someone very different or not even exist at all.

[Sharon]

That is one advantage of Kindles and Nooks, Cristyn--we can increase the font size! Eleanor's involvement in the rebellion was shocking to her world, for it was not that unusual for sons to rebel against their father but a wife, a queen? She paid a high price, of course, for that error of judgment. At one point in Devil's Brood, Eleanor comments to her maid that she and Henry rarely make mistakes,but when they do, they tend to be spectacular. In her defense, she did learn from her mistake, whereas poor Henry did not, and kept making the same ones over and over with his sons. So often I wanted to stop writing and shake some sense into him. But of course he paid no heed to me, a lowly scribe and a female. Several of the people in my Eleanor of Aquitaine tour could claim descent from her, Melissa, and as you say, that did give them a more intense indentification with Eleanor. I should be so lucky to have such a stellar family tree!

[Cristyn]

Thanks Sharon for your insight on Eleanor. It made me wonder WHY I hold Eleanor to a higher standard than Henry. I guess it could be that I see her as strong and intelligent...more regal maybe. But definitely ABOVE all the back-handed, petty dealings of men...and war. And maybe since the last few months all my reading has been about Henry and his family...maybe I'm a little partial....I don't know. I'm not sure I can really answer that yet...we'll have to see how the story goes ;) I'm only about 175 pages in.

I hadn't really realized that I was connected to Eleanor through John until a few weeks ago. Lucky for me...in the early part of the 1700's my 6th great grandfather Moses Spear married Submit Hastings. That Hastings family goes back MANY years and intersects with English royalty...and you know, once you're in with one....you're pretty much into all of Europe's royals.

I do have a Kindle...love it! I use it almost as much as I use my local library.

[Judy]

Is Lionheart the second or third book in the trilogy?

[Sharon]

What a wonderful name, Cristyn--Submit Hastings! The Puritans came up with some wonderful ones. I wonder if your Hastings branch of the family are linked to Edward IV's friend, William Hastings, who had that fatal falling out with Richard III. The sad thing about the implosion of the Angevin family is that it wasn't inevitable, could have been avoided. Three things I am reasonably certain of--that Henry truly loved his sons, but could not bring himself to share power with them, or anyone else; today we'd call him a control freak. That Eleanor came to regret her part in the rebellion, but then she had 16 years of contemplation. And that Henry and Eleanor would never make good role models as parents!

[Darkpool]

Judy, I think it's the 4th book in the trilogy ;-)

Just finished T&C a couple of days ago. (view spoiler)[Gutted when Hywel was killed, but not at all surprised given I didn't recall him from the Welsh trilogy (and surely I'd have remembered such a wonderful character!) (hide spoiler)] Now on the hunt for a copy of Devil's Brood. I've got some loyalty points to spend at a domestic book chain, so hopefully I can find a copy at one of their stores.

[Judy]

Thanks Darkpool......Off to find the first book :))....Too bad there aren't more hours in the day.

[Melissa]

Judy wrote: "Thanks Darkpool......Off to find the first book :))....Too bad there aren't more hours in the day."

You're really going to feel that way when you start reading, and if you're anything like me and read at night, you're going to wonder why there aren't more hours in the night too. There are some days I stay up until 4 or 5 in the morning reading and don't even realize it because it's just too good to put down.

[Sharon]

Judy, Darkpool is correct. I'd originally planned just a trilogy about the Angevins, with Devil's Brood winding it all up. But then I realized I'd like to continue their story in Lionheart. It was initially supposed to be one book, but I soon realized I had no chance of meeting the deadline since Richard and I were still stuck in the Holy Land. So I decided to tell his story as two books since there is a natural breaking point, the end of the Third Crusade. Lionheart concludes with Richard sailing for home--or so he thinks. A King's Ransom will cover the remaining years of his reign and the first year of John's, which will bring me full circle to my second book, Here Be Dragons.

[Cristyn]

Yeah!! I can't wait to get my hand on Lionheart...and then A King's Ransom...for my John!! I think I may wait for Here Be Dragons....we'll see if I can wait that long....

Sharon...yes my Submit Hastings is a decendant of William Hastings...I was just reading up on his line last night. Within that line are the Poles, Staffords, Nevilles, Woodvilles....pretty much the whole lot of them. I have a bunch of it on my computer...but I'm one for the facts, and will eventually be checking some of the sources and such. I suppose there is always a chance the information I have is wrong...but it's much more exciting to think its right.

[Sharon]

It must be exciting to trace your descent back to such interesting people, Cristyn! I've never tried to trace the Penman family tree, but with my luck, we'd just turn up a sheep stealer or two.

[Cristyn]

I have a lot of fun with it....like a treasure hunt. It can be a little daunting....especially when hittig a wall.

[Iset]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've experience in tracing back family trees and I was intrigued by your story, Cristyn. Unfortunately you are not related to the noble Hastings family. Submit Hastings (b. 15/10/1727 in Connecticut) was the daughter of Joseph Hastings (b. 27/12/1703 in Massachusetts); he was the son of Benjamin Hastings (b. 9/08/1659 in Massachusetts), who was the son of Thomas Hastings (b. circa 1605 in Little Eversden, a tiny village in England). This Thomas Hastings is well known as one of the early colonists to America. The only major genealogy to treat the family, The Hastings Memorial (Boston, 1866), states that he was of noble birth by descent from the illustrious family that included the Earl of Huntingdon line, however he is not known to have claimed such a connection in his lifetime and there are no records to substantiate this supposed connection and much to argue against it. The surname probably comes from the town of Hastings, and was fairly common. Just to be sure, I researched the noble Hastings' family tree extensively, and that Thomas Hastings who was Submit's great-grandfather features absolutely nowhere on it, indeed no Thomas Hastings of the correct dates or even similar dates features in the noble Hastings' family tree at all.

Back on topic - I finally managed to get round to re-reading Sharon's trilogy, in high anticipation of Lionheart's upcoming release. I'm loving When Christ and His Saints Slept - it has been a longtime favourite of mine ever since first reading a dozen years ago, and re-reading it is simply a delight and a marvel - if only all historical fiction novels could be as good as this!

[Cristyn]

Thanks for the information Beth...I'll take that into consideration while doing my research. :)

[Iset]

Anything to help out a fellow genealogist!

[Darkpool]

Yay! Devil's Brood was sitting on the doorstep when I got home from work tonight (it's Monday here). I've a few library books to deal with, but then I'll be diving into it.

[Brenna]

Beth's glowing review of Saints encouraged me to pick it back up again (it's been two years since I read it). It also fits nicely into my Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge as well!

[Iset]

Brenna wrote: "Beth's glowing review of Saints encouraged me to pick it back up again (it's been two years since I read it). It also fits nicely into my Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge as well!"

Aw, thank you Brenna! I've just finished re-reading Time and Chance (review to come) and am starting Devil's Brood.

[Sharon]

What is your Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge, Brenna? And what a great shot of Padfoot.
It was one of the best reviews I've ever gotten, Beth; a pity I couldn't hire a plane to sky write it over a couple of countries!

[Melissa]

I am (very) slowly but surely making my way through Devil's brood. As I'm reading I find that every time I come upon any passage with Henry I just feel bad for him, he truly doesn't understand how his sons can not like him. I think that because he was so close with his father he just assumed his children would feel the same way about him regardless of how different the circumstances were. I imagine he thinks of the relationship with his sons as that of him and his mother Maude. She was never really around for most of his youth, but he still loved her and wanted to do all he could to help her.
At the same time I want to reach into the book and slap Eleanor every time she's on the page, I find her to be both arrogant and selfish.

[Iset]

Sharon wrote: "What is your Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge, Brenna? And what a great shot of Padfoot.
It was one of the best reviews I've ever gotten, Beth; a pity I couldn't hire a plane to sky write it over a ..."

Thank you... although I think I may have to re-write my Time and Chance review - set the bar too high on my Saints review, my T & C review can't live up to it!

[Melissa]

I just finished Devil's Brood, and while I liked it better than Time and Chance, I have to say that of the Trilogy, When Christ and His Saints Slept is still my favorite of the 3.
I'm now totally excited to be able to finally start Lionheart.

[ladywallingford]

I finished Time and Chance this morning. This re-read doesn't hold up to the last. I think this time around, when I read When Christ and His Saints Slept, I felt as if I was getting re-acquainted with old friends of mine and I absolutely savored it. In Time and Chance, as much as I love Henry and Eleanor, I just get irritated with all the feuding between Becket and Henry. Also, I hate to see Henry and Eleanor's relationship begin to go downhill and dread reading what's to come in Devil's Brood (but I still will!).

The best bits for me in this book were the scenes with the Welsh (by the way, thanks Sharon for introducing me to Welsh history). I absolutely adored Hywel and his easy camaraderie with Ranulf, who is another favorite character. (view spoiler)[The first time I read this book, I remember being totally stunned and devastated by the death of Hywel at the end. This time, I knew what was coming and I had knots in my stomach because I hated to see the end of the character. (hide spoiler)]

I plan on beginning Devil's Brood in September because right now, I have a big stack of books from the library that are demanding my attention.

[Iset]

I finished Devil's Brood a few days ago, and have tonight posted up my review! Here are my reviews for all three books, if anyone's interested!

When Christ and His Saints Slept:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Time and Chance:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Devil's Brood:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Now on tenterhooks waiting for Lionheart to come out! :)

[Laura]

I haven't commented prior to this,but I have been following the thread for awhile,& I have just read Isis's reviews of the first three vols. of Sharon Kay Penman's Henry & Eleanor series.I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with her assessment of both SKP's writing talent (astounding & unmatched,IMO.)and that she is also spot on in saying she deserves the title "Queen of Historical Fiction." And while I'm commenting, I'd just like to add that SKP herself made a comment earlier in this discussion about how friends won't go see historical films with her anymore because her "...seething & muttering into (her) popcorn distracts them from the show." That made me LOL.I have the same problem.

[Sharon]

It is reassuring, Laura, to know I share this affliction with other readers. I am amazed by Isis's reviews of my Angevin trilogy. She really has a way with words.
Lady Wallingford, Hywel, the Poet Prince, was one of my favorite characters. He wasn't supposed to play such a prominent role, but he had other ideas.

[Cristyn]

Finished Devil's Brood last night....can not wait for Lionheart.

I have a busy weekend and then I'll sit down and write my reviews.

I really don't know how I feel about DB yet. I guess I'm sad that Henry went out like that....sad isn't the right word....I need some time to process it. LOL!!

[Sharon]

Henry broke my heart, Cristyn. There were so many turning points where his family's implosion could have been avoided. I kept trying to tell him he didn't really want to keep making the same mistakes with his sons, but would he listen to me? Of course not, no more than teenagers in horror flicks do when they are warned not to go down alone into the basement. After all, I was a female and a lowly scribe. But said scribe really wished there was an alternate universe in which he'd listened to me and Eleanor and avoided that tragic death at Chinon.

[Iset]

I felt exactly the same way about Devil's Brood. Part of me wanted to step in and say "Stop! You really want to rethink this course of action!"

[Sharon]

If only they'd listen to us! I'd have sat Eleanor down and suggested that she rethink this rebellion idea. I'd have warned Geoffrey to stay far away from tournaments. I'd have convinced Henry to take his father as his role model; Geoffrey won Normandy with his sword and yet turned it over to Henry, no strings attached, as soon as he turned 17. Actually, all of the Angevins could probably have benefited from some family therapy, and the men certainly could have used a few anger managment classes.

[Melissa]

Sharon wrote: "Henry broke my heart, Cristyn. There were so many turning points where his family's implosion could have been avoided. I kept trying to tell him he didn't really want to keep making the same mis..."

I think that is why I found Devil's Brood so hard to get through, every time I'd think, oh he might be finally getting it, Henry would go and do something that would ruin everything he'd just worked for and he wouldn't even know it.

[Brenna]

Sharon wrote: "What is your Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge, Brenna? And what a great shot of Padfoot.
..."

My Arthur-Elizabeth II challenge is my personal reading challenge. I want to read a book fiction/nonfiction about every leader of England (or in some cases, the territories in England) through that time period. It has been extremely difficult and rewarding at the same time to see how everything connects and to see the same mistakes made over and over again! Difficult because there aren't a lot of books out there pre-William the Conqueror some I'm missing some leaders here and there, but for the most part, I've put together quite an extensive list.

[Robin]

Here's two I can heartily recommend. One's a pre-William, set about 1015 during the reign of Edmund Ironside

The Ward of King Canute: A Romance of the Danish Conquest

Or from around 1066 -

The Last Englishman - The Story of Hereward the Wake

[Brenna]

Thanks Robin! I will add them to my list!

[Robin]

Then I will suggest one more :)

Queen Emma and the Vikings: Power, Love, and Greed in 11th Century England