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Buddy Read of the Henry II and Eleanor trilogy by Sharon Kay Penman
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ladywallingford
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Apr 24, 2011 06:21PM
I finally started reading the book again this weekend but thus far, am not very far into it due to the holiday weekend. I am very much looking forward to diving into one of my favorite periods in history again.
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I haven't started it yet either, but I will by the end of this weekend (provided I get my final paper written for a class eek!). I've been fully immersed in Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire and just picked up the Borgia Bride again, so once that is finished, and my paper is written, I can give all my time over to this book. So excited!!
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I have to say, I loved the opening paragraph to When Christ and His Saints Slept:
"Stephen was never to forget his fifth birthday, for that was the day he lost his father. In actual fact, that wasn't precisely so. But childhood memories are not woven from facts alone, and that was how he would remember it."
What a great opening to the book.
Thank you, Lyn! My own favorite opening line is a famous one: The past was a foreign country. They did things differently there.
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I'm going slower than nornal too but it's not because I want it that way. So, how much of Geoffrey's personality is imagination vs contemporary report? Like, what a jerk!
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Ah, but you're judging the young Geoffrey, Thalia! He was only 15 when he wed Maude, a beautiful, proud woman more than 10 years his senior, who made no secret of her reluctance to wed him. So as difficult as the marriage was for her, it was no bed of roses for him, either. He would later prove to be a very capable battle commander by taking Normandy. And then, he turned it all over to his son Henry as soon as Henry reached 17, when he could easily have found a pretext for holding onto the lands that he'd won with his sword. Ironically, Henry would later show himself to be very reluctant to give up even an iota of his own power. His troubled relationship with his sons would likely have been better had he only taken his father as his role model. So while I can't say I'd have wanted to be married to Geoffrey, I don't see him as the villain of the piece, although he has gotten rather bad press in the English chronicles, for none of the English lords wanted to have an Angevin rule over them.
Yeah, Geoffrey can be a jerk but Maude is no saint either. Sharon, one of the things I'm loving about this book is how we really get both sides of the story in all the conflicts going on. I understand where each character is coming from and why they feel the way they do, even if they are making mistakes. It makes them so human and real - none are perfect, they all have their flaws and strengths.
Robin wrote: "Yeah, Geoffrey can be a jerk but Maude is no saint either. Sharon, one of the things I'm loving about this book is how we really get both sides of the story in all the conflicts going on. I underst..."I agree completely!! I'm 1/2 way through the book and I feel for each and every character. I think it's wonderful how emotionally invested I am in each. At one point I was really rallying for Maude, but then the story changes to Stephens POV and I think, "well, I guess I can understand that" . . . .and there is my sympathy for him.
Maude and Robert had their "chat". . . Ugh, I admit it - I cried.
Currently I'm reading about Maude (jr) helping Ranulf. This is a fun part.
Sabrina, Maud (the Countess of Chester) is a good example of a character who was a born scene-stealer; if I'd invited her to dinner, I'd have counted the silverware after she left. She was supposed to have a relatively minor role, but she was having none of thet, thank you, and decided she could get more time on center stage if she helped Ranulf in his illicit affair. And she guaranteed she'd get more time on-screen in the rest of the trilogy by craftily becoming close friends with Eleanor. Another one whose role expanded beyond my initial plans was Hywel ab Owen, the Poet-Prince of Gwynedd, who you'll meet in Time and Chance. And of course the scene stealer par excellance was Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, who stole an entire book. Here be Dragons was suppposed to be the story of King John and his illegitimate daughter, Joanna. But after I moved to Wales to research it, it took Llywelyn about only a fortnight to highjack the book right out from under John's nose. So characters can definitely have minds of their own!
Reading this thread is teasing me! I'm only just now getting started (glad to see I'm not the only late start) and excited to be joining in. From the discussions, it looks to be a thought provoking book :)
The characters are amazing (and abundant, lol)! The back and forth victory/defeat is killing me. I can't decide who to root for. Being largely ignorant of this history, it's all new and I don't know who's going to win. I perked up when I ran into "John Marshall"...is this the same person depicted in some popular Chadwick novels (unread on my shelf still)? The name seems familiar.
Yes, this is THE John Marshal who stars in EC's A Place Beyond Courage. I tease EC that she is a little kinder to John than I was, but I enjoyed her "take" on him. He is, of course, the father of the famous William Marshal.
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No, Lyn, I know about it, of course, and I am a fan of Edith Pargeter's--I loved her A Bloody Field by Shrewsbury and her Brother Cadfael mysteries, too, written as Ellis Peters. But I almost never read other writers' novels about "my" characters. After spending so much time with them residing in my head, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so. I suspect that many writers are this way; we tend to get territorial! I know many of my readers enjoyed her quartet, though.
Lyn M wrote: "Sharon - speaking of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Hywel ab Owen, have you ever read [book:The Brothers of Gwynedd Quartet: Comprising Sunrise in the West, The Dragon at Noonday, The Hounds of Sunset, A..."Lynn, I read those a few years ago and wasn't exactly bowled over. Not sure if it was just coming off of reading Sharon's Welsh trilogy, but they were just a bit too dry for me. The first person narrative didn't help me much either. I've seen mixed opinions on them though. Some love them, but I've also seen them compared to watching paint dry. Your mileage may vary.
message 119:
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Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3
(last edited Apr 27, 2011 09:53AM)
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Thanks Misfti. I also have Sharon's Welsh trilogy to read, so I will make sure to read the Pargeter books first, lol. Have you read any of the Cadfael books? If so, how do they compare? That might help me decided.
Lyn, I've never got around to reading the Cadfael books, mysteries aren't always my thing. True confession, I haven't even read Sharon's mysteries and you know I love her books :)
message 121:
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Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3
(last edited Apr 27, 2011 09:57AM)
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I can imagine that it would be hard to read someone else's take on "your" characters. I have enough trouble dealing with the way a producer or director will cast a character from a book I have read if it doesn't fit my picture of the character. :) Thanks for the info. I have both that and your Welsh trilogy on my shelves to read in future. Just trying to decide where to start....The when will hopefully be later this year.
Talking of Sharon's Welsh trilogy - I read it about 5 years ago, and found it... well, there are many things I could say, but I will confine myself to simply this: I found it truly moving, possibly more than anything else I've ever read.
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Shame on you, Misfit. What type of SKP fan are you anyway, lol. I was just wondering if that would help me decide about the Gwynedd book. It's all good. :)
I honestly don't know how you all get so much reading done. lol. I have all three books on hold, hoping to finish Queen Hereafter before I get the first of the trilogy. Looking forward to reading it...I feel like I'm missing out on all the fun. LOL>
I'm slowly but surely making my way through "When Christ" and what I love is that once I pick up the book to start reading, I can't seem to make myself put it down. The only bad thing is that I usually only get to read at night before I go to bed, so I usually end up falling asleep reading, and have to go back and re-read what I don't remember.
I have always felt Eleanor deserved more books,its like buses now 2 are coming at once.
I find that the more I read about Stephen and Maude, the less I want either one to win. At this point, I can't wait for Henry to become King just so I don't have to put up with them anymore. They each have the worst qualities anyone in a position of power could possibly have.
Melissa, I created my first purely fictional character in Ranulf because I felt that many readers could not take either Stephen or Maude to heart, and Ranulf would give them someone to root for until Henry was old enough to take center stage.
I actually found Maude and Stephen to be very human. I didn't like Stephen at first at all, but as the story went on their were certain aspects of him that I liked. In the end though, I pitied him and felt sympathetic for him, but I wouldn't say that I liked him or that I agreed with his actions. It helped though that I could see that he did have his own reasons for what he did, and it wasn't just palmed off onto some "he did it cause he's a bad guy" explanation.I liked Maude though. At times I got angry with her and I felt like pulling my hair out, but it was more like one of those heated spats between friends - in the end I liked her too much and I forgave her faults, and I very much like her stubbornness and her headstrong qualities, and her sheer dominance.
But... I did love Ranulf, consistently, all the way through, and he never put a foot wrong.
I actually really like the character of Ranulf, when I first started reading it took me like an hour to figure out who he was, so I was thinking I was just crazy because it was like 'finally a character that's just a cool dude' because I had looked at the family trees and didn't see the name. Then I looked at the authors note and realized that he was fictional and then laughed at myself. And like Beth said, he is probably the only character who you can root for consistently the whole way through.
Melissa wrote: "I'm slowly but surely making my way through "When Christ" and what I love is that once I pick up the book to start reading, I can't seem to make myself put it down. The only bad thing is that I usu..."I'm the same way...Can usually only read at night before bed. I have two youngin's so they keep me on my toes most of the day; but I have to sit in the youngest's room until she falls asleep at night, sometimes it takes an hour....night lights work well for reading....lol!!!
I started Time and Chance yesterday and really enjoying it. I'm not having that same character struggle with this one as I was with When Christ and His Saints Slept so it's already off to a less fustrating start.
Thalia, I finished When Christ and His Saints Slept Sunday night and will be picking up Time and Chance today from the library. I can't wait to get started on it.
I'm not as far as I would like to be. It's a re-read for me though so hopefully I can speed up a little bit once I'm a little further along. One character that I haven't seen mention of so far in the discussions (even though he is only mentioned in the book and doesn't have any face time so to speak) is Henry I. He doesn't seem like a very nice guy - blinding his own granddaughters. Can't imagine his daughter was too happy about that. He also didn't give Maude much control over her own life - or really cared about what she thought. For someone that was going to turn over the kingdom to her, he didn't seem to have any confidence in her. I owonder if he really thought Maude was going to rule or if he hoped she had a son quickly who would be old enough to be king when he died. I confess I am not really too sure how old Henry was at this point.
I think Henry I was a very cold man, Laura. In all the reading I've done about him, the image that emerges is of a very ruthless man. Legend had it that he never smiled again after the sinking of the White Ship, but I suspect he never smiled much before it, either.
I've thought about that a bit myself Laura. If Henry I was serious about making his daughter his heir, why wouldn't he train her (so to speak). Have her more involved so people could see her, learn to trust her. And on top of that - he married her to someone no-one seemed to like and could never see ruling with her. If I remember correctly (and I don't have the book on me, so I apologize for being vague) didn't Henry I declare Empress Maude as his heir before her marriage to Geoffrey? If that is the case, I wonder about his choice.
I think the case with Henry I marrying Maude to Geoffrey was more of a solution to an immediate threat than in Henry thinking of his long-term dynastic ambitions. He and Fulk of Anjou were not really allies at the time (Geoffrey was not the Count of Anjou here) and at the time , William Clito (the son of Henry's elder brother Robert Curthose) was a very big threat to his throne and to Normandy. So, I think in order to focus on Clito, Henry came to terms with Fulk and the best way to cement an alliance is to marry the families. Furthermore, I think the reason why he chose Maude instead of an illegitimate daughter was the fact that if William hadn't died in the White Ship wreck, the Angevins would have still had a link to the English throne since William had married Fulk of Anjou's daughter (another political alliance). Both Geoffrey and Maude really had no say in this.As for why Henry didn't train Maude, well, I personally think one of the big reasons for that was because Henry was not a man to give up control. Also, he may not have thought Maude would actually become Queen of England but he did all in his earthly power to see that his dynasty continued without giving up his control (because I think as with most kings, Henry did have dynastic ambitions and Maude was his only option).
I agree I think Henry REALLY believed he'd live long enough that having Maude on the throne would never really happen, and he was just securing her position long enough for a son of hers to become his heir.
I don't know if Henry believed he would live that long but he may have hoped to or at least maybe he wanted to live long enough to cement Maude's and her son Henry's position more. By the time Henry I died, he was already 65-67 which is pretty old for the time period. I think the belief of Maude not becoming Queen would stem more from her being a woman and then of course being married to Geoffrey of Anjou (even with the benefit of having this political alliance) which didn't help matters any at all. Hence why he took the extra precaution of having all his leading men swear an oath of fealty to Maude before his death. The only thing really working in Maude's favor is the fact that she has two sons by the time of Henry's death.
I have just completed Time and Chance. I liked it a little better than the first one in the series. That always makes me happy because too often followup books are a disappointment. Anyways, I read, with particular interest, the parts related to Thomas, Archbishop of Cantebury. Being largely ignorant of this time period, it is the Archbishop that I'm most familiar with (I'm Catholic). Of course, my familiarity with the saint is quite 2 dimensional so I was interested to see him made more 3-D. He did come across as rather vindictive. I hope it wasn't really so. Made for good reading though.
Started into Devil's Brood and I liked the following so much I had to share:"Henry returned to reality with a start, staring blankly at Roger as he realized he'd not heard a word of his cousin's question. Eleanor's alluring ghost receded into the past, leaving him with a sense of wonder that twenty years could have passed since that torrid May night. He also felt an odd sense of loss, although he wasn't sure why." (page 25)
The part preceding this was essentially a summary of their relationship but I thought it was well disguised as being lost on one's memories. I like the quote because that very thing often happens to me, lol.
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You got my day off to a good start, Thalia, for nothing makes a writer happier than to have a reader cite a specific sentence, paragraph, or scene. We very rarely get that sort of detailed feedback--editors tend to tell writers what they do wrong, not right!
Lyn M wrote: "Wow, you are flying through these books, Thalia. I haven't even finished the first one yet, lol. Glad you are enjoying them."lol, I know we're meant to be reading them one per monthish but that would mean I have to read other books in between (I'm a voracious reader) and I always read series together when possible. When I'm into a book and there's more (books) then it's like hitting the jackpot!
I know what you mean, Thalia. I am reading the second book now in the George R.R. Martin's Ice and Fire series, and I am so glad I came late to the party, for his fans have been waiting six years for the one coming out in July!
I just picked up from the library and started Time and Chance too. I read When Christ and His Saints Slept on my Kindle, but Time and Chance is $20 for the Kindle version! The book version is half that!I am enjoying your posts about the books and find I agree with most of your comments. I cannot put them down either and often fall asleep reading them too!
-Liza
I was really startled by the price, too, Elizabeth. Sometimes the author gets blamed, but we have no say whatsoever in such matters, unfortunately. Devil's Brood is quite expensive on Kindle, too, and while I haven't checked, I suspect the same is true for Nook. I'm still enjoying my new Kindle, though; I feel like a kid with a new toy.
Happily I got Devil's Brood at the Seattle Public Library sale for $1! It was my inspiration for starting the books. Well, that and Follett's books.I am LOVING these so much! I made my husband go to the library yesterday on Mother's day to pick up T&C since I finished WCHSS the night before (he did, good man!)
I'm just whistling through Devil's Brood. I just want to smack Henry into reality. Being King magnifies being centre of the universe. Gosh, he must have been unbearable if you were on the wrong side of him
A History of Royals
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Edith Pargeter (other topics)Jeanne Kalogridis (other topics)
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