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Buddy Read of the Henry II and Eleanor trilogy by Sharon Kay Penman
message 151:
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Sharon
(new)
May 10, 2011 06:27AM
Thalia, I am always trying to persuade the Angevins not to do something that is going to blow up in their faces. I kept trying to tell Henry that he was sowing seeds of his own destruction by his failure to learn from his mistakes with his sons and by his inability to share any power whatsoever with Eleanor. I tried to convince Eleanor not to throw in with the rebellion. And in Lionheart, I kept saying, "Richard, you really do not want to offend the Duke of Austria; play nice." Of course none of them paid me any heed, since I am merely a lowly female scribe. It reminds me of those horror flicks where the teenagers insist upon going down into the basement alone while the entire audience is screaming, "Don't do it!"
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Sharon wrote: "I was really startled by the price, too, Elizabeth. Sometimes the author gets blamed, but we have no say whatsoever in such matters, unfortunately. Devil's Brood is quite expensive on Kindle, to..."I get so fired up when I see the *kindle kops* on Amazon writing one star reviews just to complain about the kindle price. People try to argue with them in the comments, but there is just no winning that battle. I just came across a reviewer today who had written 50+ one star reviews just to complain about the price of it. http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-r...
Am I the only one who almost cried when Ranulf was fighting to save Jennet and Simon because they thought Loth might get killed?
Misfit, I do not mean to do what you describe. I am just surprised at the price being double the book version when clearly the overhead is much cheaper with the kindle version (no paper, printing, binding, shipping, illustration etc...) I have no problems paying for a good book(!) but I do not like being taken advantage of because I prefer electronic versions.I won't write about this again because it is off subject, sorry all!!!
Elizabeth, I was surprised, too, by the price for Chance and DB. Publishers do writers no favor when they price e-books so high, for that is bound to affect sales. Sadly, no one ever asks us!
Elizabeth wrote: "Misfit, I do not mean to do what you describe. I am just surprised at the price being double the book version when clearly the overhead is much cheaper with the kindle version (no paper, printing,..."Elizabeth, I'll go off topic just one more time - I agree 100% with the frustration the kindle users have over book prices. I wouldn't cave for them either, and my comment above was not directed at you. I'm just frustrated with the folks at Amazon who give a book a one star rating just because of something out of the author's control. That is all I meant :)
I find that very frustrating, Misfit, for the rating has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the book or whether the reviewer liked it or not. By all means, complain about the price of a book, but don't punish the writer; it is not as if we get any of that money!
well, I've finished Devil's Brood because I just couldn't keep my eyeballs out of it so it's safe to say it's my favourite of the three (can't wait for Lionheart!). I love how I got to know the "boys" and was disgusted in how they fought each other like they did. Don't really want to commit any spoilers because, perhaps there are other readers like me that don't already know their history (though I suspect I'm probably in the minority here, lol). I almost can't believe this is really true (the story I mean), no wonder it makes a great book (or three, oops, soon-to-be four). So anyways, what I really want to know is can someone explain to me better this whole business of Duchies versus Kingdoms and the whole homage thing?
Thalia, a duchy was lower down on the status scale, so a duke would owe homage to a king. This is why Henry and then Richard, as Dukes of Normandy, owed homage to the King of France, who was--at least technically--their overlord. This complicated life for the Angevins and gave the French monarchy an advantage which was wasted on Louis, but not on his cold-blooded and crafty son, Philippe. Of course when kings squabbled over who had suzerainty of a duchy, as was the case with Brittany, then it got complicated. It was especially tricky for lords who held land on both sides of the Channel as many did after the Conquest. With Stephen holding England and Geoffrey of Anjou later seizing Normandy, lords found themselves between a rock and a hard place. It got even worse during John's reign, for after he lost Normandy to Philippe, the Norman barons owed fealty to the French Crown as their overlord, but John tended to see that as a form of treason. I agree that the most amazing thing about this family's story is that it was all true. Who could make stuff like this up?
I'm so close!! I read like 200 pages yesterday so I've only got a little over 100 pages left. And no joke for most of those I was crying. I really would love to reach into the book and give Ranulf a big hug.I am glad though that Elanor is finally an actual character, not just someone people keep talking about. I don't know how I feel about her though, I've never read anything about her before, so I don't really know anything about her or have any real opinion about her character as a person.
Sharon wrote: "Thalia, a duchy was lower down on the status scale, so a duke would owe homage to a king. This is why Henry and then Richard, as Dukes of Normandy, owed homage to the King of France, who was--at l..."So was "France" made up of Duchies or was only some parts? And why was Normandy part of England? Like when William the Bastard conquered England, wasen't Normandy paying homage to France? Was he Duke William of Normandy? Or, if it was autonomous wouldn't it be a kingdom....I'm so confused.
France was made up of duchies and counties (i.e. had a Count or Countess of Such and Such). But it wasn't a unified country like it is today. Some duchies were pretty much independent, except for nominally acknowledging homage to the French crown. But if they felt they were strong enough they might refuse to pay homage - and on the other end of things if the French crown felt that it was strong enough it could always try to raise an army to bring the rebellious duchy more firmly under their thumb. The French crown was weaker though because the country was not strictly unified - their powerbase was confined to the region of Ile de France and whatever loyal duchies and counties would be willing to call up the troops and pay their dues.Both. Normandy became linked with English territories because William the Bastard/Conqueror was the Duke of Normandy, so when he conquered England both territories were now under his rule. However, Normandy was obviously nominally in France and it was a duchy. The question of Normandy paying homage to France was rather flexible. Normandy wasn't your average duchy. It was conquered and settled centuries before by Vikings, who established a unique cultural fusion and language (Norman French) in the region. They were also pretty fierce about their independence, and in the past French kings had tried to force the duchy to submit to the authority of the French crown only to be trounced by the dukes. At various points as the duchy's strength fluctuated, it either agreed to pay its dues to the French crown or flat out refused to do so and had the power to operate independently. Of course, when Duke William of Normandy became King William of England, there was a problem. The French king wanted William and his successors to pay homage for the duchy of Normandy, but now William and his descendants were also kings of another country it would demonstrate weakness if they submitted to the French king - now his equal in status. Also, who wants to send a percentage of your taxes off to a rival king when you want to use that money for your own royal treasury? The ensuing difference of opinion between the French crown and the English crown over who really had control over the various duchies and counties that became aligned with England naturally provoked back-and-forth conflict for the next five centuries.
No, an autonomous duchy doesn't have to be a kingdom. The Italian States were made up of independent duchies, republics, the odd kingdom and all sorts. A duchy only implies to us that it cannot be independent because of the Medieval feudal system which establish this pyramid structure where authority and administration was dispersed through the crown downwards, the next step down being the dukes. The feudal system was less well established in the early Medieval period; the idea of owing loyalty, troops and taxes to a king overlord in exchange for authority and a slice of the pie was rather new, and in an environment where the crown was weak and the duchies were strong and had their own fiercely independent streak - don't forget, at this time, France is more like a loose confederation than a unified kingdom, and each region had a strong local culture and sometimes even a different language - well, the dukes and counts, or duchesses and countesses, disputed the call to pay homage.
Thanks for the explanation above Beth. I am relatively new to the history of royals and didn't quite understand it all. Glad you asked Thalia. :-)
Melissa wrote: "I'm so close!! I read like 200 pages yesterday so I've only got a little over 100 pages left. And no joke for most of those I was crying. I really would love to reach into the book and give Ranulf ..."I was the same way Melissa. So many emotions! I don't have the book any longer, but I think it was chapter 27 that was my favorite. Where Maude was fleeing the castle with three men under the cover of snow. I loved one of Ranulf's lines where he said something like . . .don't let me find out one of you whoreson's ate my dogs . . . in such a tense moment, that line made me laugh out loud.
Beth wrote: "France was made up of duchies and counties (i.e. had a Count or Countess of Such and Such). But it wasn't a unified country like it is today. Some duchies were pretty much independent, except for n..."brilliant, thanks for that. It makes more sense to me now. :)
I finally finished When Christ.. last night and I thought it was a perfect end to the first in the series. I was especially happy for a Ranulf. .I do have to say though, (view spoiler) that was probably the saddest and most insane thing I've read in a while and I really was not expecting it. . . I cant wait to start Time and Chance this week
I'm so struggling to get reading time in! I'm only about 250 pages in...AHH!! So wish I had more time to read! Loving it so far....but I'll have read all the comments later. The only time I can read is right before bed, and lately I've been so tired I only get a handful of pages read....
Melissa wrote: "I finally finished When Christ.. last night and I thought it was a perfect end to the first in the series. I was especially happy for a Ranulf. .I do have to say though, [spoilers removed] that was..."Melissa, that's a rough one, isn't it? If I might, I'd also recommend Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage which is centered on John (William's father) and that very difficult scene you just mentioned.
Misfit wrote: "Melissa, that's a rough one, isn't it? If I might, I'd also recommend Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage which is..."Thanks for the suggestion Misfit, there's always a giant stack of Elizabeth Chadwick books at my local used book store and I always want to pick one up but I never know where to start.
Melissa wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Melissa, that's a rough one, isn't it? If I might, I'd also recommend Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage which is..."Thanks for the suggestion Misfit, there's always a gia..."
Melissa, a giant stack of Chadwick's at a UBS in the US? Tell us where it is :)
PS, there is a US author by that name who writes romances. You want the UK author and she only writes medieval period.
Misfit wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Melissa, that's a rough one, isn't it? If I might, I'd also recommend Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage which is..."Thanks for the suggestion Misfit, the..."
Central California, the store is in Manteca to be exact. . .I go to a local used book store and there's a section of books in the front corner of the store with a lot of books by people like Phillipa Gregory and Elizabeth Chadwick. There's more, but those are the two that always stick out to me.
It's been so quiet in here it lately I was wondering if I'm the only one still reading the trilogy? . . . Unfortunately I haven't read at all in the last week, I got an upper respiratory infection that turned into pink eye in one eye that has spread to the other; so the one activity I would normally do while being out of work for 5 days, reading, I can't do because I can't focus on the small writing.. . what's that about?. . .so anyway, how are the books coming along for everybody?
I've got the second one waiting to be read, but wasn't sure if the crowd was up to that yet or not. I know some keen types read all 3 straight through, but I thought the original (very vague) suggestion had the books a bit more spaced out than that. Umm... Lyn? Anyone??
I finished When Christ and His Saints Slept (again, wonderful wonderful book) and will probably start Time and Chance sometime at the beginning of June.And I just have to say that Christ again gave me writer's block...
I've recently started Time and Chance, but didn't want to comment yet because I wasn't sure if there would be a separate discussion started for it.
I have just started When Christ and His Saints Slept - am really enjoying it. I like how it opens in Chartres! I've visited the Cathedral, but I have forgotten when it was built. Still, it must have been new then, and an awesome sight (also site).There was a discussion earlier about getting facts right in fiction. I wrote a blog post on the subject a while back - if anyone wants to read it, go here:
http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_...
I'm still reading When Christ and His Saints Slept. Hoping to get a little extra reading done with the long weekend so that I can start the next one in June.
I'm going to join you - I had read When Christ and His Saints Slept earlier this year(and loved it so have been watching this discussion with much interest) but have been holding off Time and Chance as the Kindle version is pretty pricey. However the more I read these posts the more I want the next part of the story so I've made my peace with the price and am all set to start :)
Welcome to the read Christine. . . I finally got to read a bit more of Time and Chance today and it is just as good the previous...I have to say though I'm only about 100 pages in, but I don't really like Eleanor, I feel like she thinks shes more important than she is. Maybe that's just me though.
Christine wrote: "I'm going to join you - I had read When Christ and His Saints Slept earlier this year(and loved it so have been watching this discussion with much interest) but have been holding off Time and Chanc..."Gutsy! I can't bring myself to spend about $9 more for an ebook than a paperback. I hate Penguin, I really do (Penguin Publishing, not real penguins, they're cute). I think my next SKP book will be Here Be Dragons instead but I need to give myself a bit of a break in between 700+ paged books. I love long books but they're a challenge.
I finally finished the first one and started Time and Chance this weekend. I have to say, I did miss Maude when she wasn't a central character towards the end of the book. I did feel a little sorry for her. By the time she started learning from her mistakes, it was too late. It seems that the only reason why people didn't want her to rule England was that she was a woman. Things changed for her side when Henry was old enough to rule and people saw how bad Eustace would be.
Why is it so often a great leader is so often followed up by a disaster of one(in history in general) or one that threatens to be a disaster...I was finding myself often thinking of this as I read the series.
Thalia wrote: "Why is it so often a great leader is so often followed up by a disaster of one(in history in general) or one that threatens to be a disaster...I was finding myself often thinking of this as I read ..."I think it all has to do with comparisons, compared to a really great leader, of course the next guy never gonna look as good. They either try to do the opposite of their predecessor or or outdo them, neither of which is really a good idea, but nobody wants to be in anyone else's shadow,
I agree, I think bad leaders look worse in comparison to good and great leaders. I think there are a lot of what ifs and regrets in history as we look back in hindsight because we can look and say, "Gah... if only that great leader hadn't died so young." or "If only that person, who would have made a great leader, wasn't executed by the crazy bad leader who felt threatened by his own potential heir". It's frustrating for us to look back and see missed opportunities, because, we all like to see success and the best possible outcome, we all drive for that ourselves, and to watch with the benefit of hindsight is difficult for us - we'd like to go back and amend the bumps in the road, correct the mistakes and errors.I often find myself musing things such as "If only Maud had been queen!" or "If only Alexander hadn't died young!!" or "If only Germanicus had lived and been allowed to succeed as Tiberius' heir!!!" Lol, it's most annoying to watch the bad outcome unfold when inside you're mentally yelling for someone to do the sane thing, or mentally rooting for the intelligent, reasonable, competent people to win the day.
Beth wrote: "I often find myself musing things such as "If only Maud had been queen!" or "If only Alexander hadn't died young..."Beth, I think you might like a book called What If?: The World's Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been by Robert Cowley there's a couple different versions or you can get it as a 1 book collection, I came across one at a Barnes&Noble clearance section and it's pretty interesting.
:) Thank you very much Melissa, though I do already have this book - well, correction, my father has it. I keep intending to pick it up. Soon - although I must defer for now - I have just picked up Auel's latest from the library and must read the entire doorstop in the next 21 days, before the next reservation in the queue gets it!
I can't help wishing that there were points of Time and Chance where Thomas Beckett was the narrator. I want to know what he's thinking!!
Melissa wrote: "I can't help wishing that there were points of Time and Chance where Thomas Beckett was the narrator. I want to know what he's thinking!!"<I was thinking the same thing!?!? . . What the heck happened there. Is there enough history on Thomas to understand his POV? I really want to know and will be looking for his story.
Melissa and Sabrina, I made a deliberate decision not to try to get inside Becket's head. He remains one of history's great enigmas. We simply do not know what caused him to make such a dramatic transformation. Was he caught up in a religious fervor? Was it ambition, this time exercised on behalf of the Church, not the Crown? Or was he--as the poet-prince Hywel conjectures in Time and Chance--a chamelion, changing his color to adapt to his new surroundings? For what it's worth, that is my own "take" on Becket, which would explain why he was a dutiful clerk to Archbishop Theobald, a superb and worldly chancellor for Henry, and then a religious zealot as archbishop. He irritated his fellow churchmen almost as much as he did Henry; it was not until his martyrdom that they well and truly embraced him. So I chose to let the readers make up their own minds about the mysterious Thomas Becket. The best bio. of him is the one by Frank Barlow, for it is even-handed. Some of the earlier ones don't write of the man at all, just St Thomas, the Blessed Martyr. There is also an excellent book by Frank Urry, which describes in amazing detail the last days of Becket's life. It was a Godsend for me in writing the assassination scene. I am leaving today for my Eleanor of Aquitaine tour, won't be back till June 14th, so if anyone has questions to direct to me, I wanted to alert you that I'll be away.
Just finished When Christ and His Saints Slept. It was good, and I appreciate any author who can bring clarity into a time period that was so confusing (at least for me).Still, I must say that the latter portion was a better read than the first portion - it really steams up when Henry and Eleanor appear. I think it was because the characters in the earlier generation did not seem to learn anything - or at least not very much, and very slowly. But perhaps that's a good way of representing the time period, which was one hard slog, full of setbacks and failures and pain. (Another book, The Pillars of the Earth,does this as well - but with a happier end as it is more fictional in nature.)
Reminds me also of Hobbes, who wrote: "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."
Just finished When Christ and His Saints Slept. It was good, and I appreciate any author who can bring clarity into a time period that was so confusing (at least for me).Still, I must say that the latter portion was a better read than the first portion - it really steams up when Henry and Eleanor appear. I think it was because the characters in the earlier generation did not seem to learn anything - or at least not very much, and very slowly. But perhaps that's a good way of representing the time period, which was one hard slog, full of setbacks and failures and pain. (Another book, The Pillars of the Earth,does this as well - but with a happier end as it is more fictional in nature.)
Reminds me also of Hobbes, who wrote: "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."
Sharon wrote: "Melissa and Sabrina, I made a deliberate decision not to try to get inside Becket's head. He remains one of history's great enigmas. We simply do not know what caused him to make such a dramatic ..."As frustrating as it is to not know what he's thinking, I think Sharon had the right idea by leaving Beckett as somewhat of an enigma. If we knew everything he was about it might lose some of the intrigue of the plot.
For the first time while reading a book I wanted to reach into it and try to knock some sense into a few characters. I'm at the part where Henry and Eleanor meet for the first time in over a year due to Henry's affair with Rosamund. Both of them are expecting something to happen but when it doesn't go as they planned, they just retreat into themselves and ignore the whole issue. Big mistake between two very stubborn people. Then, Henry not being htat interested in his children thinking that he has plenty of time to get to know them and have a relationship. I'm thinking he's going to regret that.i have to say though that I really like Maud of Chester. She seems to have some sense and is trying to help Eleanor. Now, if Eleanor would only listen. I'm also missing Ranulf. He hasn't been one of my favorite characters, but he does serve as a very good advisro to Henry - even if Henry doesn't listen.
Laura wrote: "For the first time while reading a book I wanted to reach into it and try to knock some sense into a few characters. I'm at the part where Henry and Eleanor meet for the first time in over a year ..."I agree with your whole first paragraph, although it is kind of my own bad for reading a book that I know how it is going to end. I knew it would eventually reach this point, but I didn't realize quite how the story itself would play out. I find myself sympathizing with Henry more so than Eleanor though, something about her that just bugs me. I also do find Maud to be entertaining
I do have to disagree about Ranulf though, I really like him, probably because he is everyone's conscience. That kind of backfired in Time because he is on both sides of a fight, and right in both, so he is really indecisive which is a little annoying.
I think in the first book I didn't care for Ranulf (know that I'm in the minority) because he just seemed to spend so much of his time pining away for Annora. It wasn't until late in the first book and into the second that he started to grow-up. I do feel for him trying to walk a tightrope because he does see both the Welsh side and Henry's side. I understand why he can't make up his mind because either way, he loses.
Laura wrote: "I think in the first book I didn't care for Ranulf (know that I'm in the minority) because he just seemed to spend so much of his time pining away for Annora. It wasn't until late in the first boo..."I see what you mean, the parts about Annora did seem to drag, there were times when I wished he would just get over it and move on. I think I forgot about the parts with her because I liked Ranulf so much and not her so I blocked them out. But I did like the part in Time (view spoiler) (I don't know if that's a spoiler, but just in case)
I also think though that Ranulf leaving was a strategic plan though, because when you think about all the things that he learned while he was on the road away from Maude, the reader would have missed major parts of the story that didn't necessarily have to do with Maude, but would affect her situation.
Laura wrote: "I think in the first book I didn't care for Ranulf (know that I'm in the minority) because he just seemed to spend so much of his time pining away for Annora."I can see how that would be annoying but I'm a bit of a hopeless romantic sometimes - plus, I know what a love divided by circumstances beyond our control is like. So I felt for Ranulf and Annora and kept hoping it'd work out for them - but in the end, (view spoiler)
Can I just say "Bravo" people for the spoiler link? That's super cool! I inadvertently read something the other day and you can't unread once read :( I'm about 20% into T&C and am enjoying it. I don't have any burning questions or comments. Just rolling along...
A History of Royals
Books mentioned in this topic
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The Last Englishman - The Story of Hereward the Wake (other topics)
Lionheart (other topics)
Lionheart (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Edith Pargeter (other topics)Jeanne Kalogridis (other topics)
Christopher Hibbert (other topics)
