Banned Books discussion
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Is free speech everything or are there limits or lessons from Unwind
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IMO, a parent does have the right as a parent to decide what their own child may or may not read, watch, etc. But they do not have the right to try and do so for anyone else's children. It is when a parent crosses that line that they are infringing on others' rights which is wrong. Censorship of others due to one's own beliefs or opinions is wrong. If a person doesn't think a book or movie or music is "right" then they should just not read it or watch it or listen to it, but they have no right to try and make it not possible for others to read or watch or listen to something. These are simply thoughts which should never be stopped, but actions based on some of these thoughts by law can and should be stopped if these actions threaten the safety of people.
Mod
Definitely agree with this, one hundred percent. It never ceases to amaze me that many of the potential book banners and advocates of book censoring use their "freedom of speech" and their "freedom of expression" to criticise a book, but then would think nothing of taking away others' rights by proposing to have said book unilaterally banned or censored, very hypocritical.
I cannot really add anything to what Joseph and Gundula have said. I am very much of the same view.Also, I would think that most schools would have alternative reads available if a parent does not want their child reading a specific book. Even 20 years back that was an option at the high school I went to.
A parent, in fact anyone, has a right to dissent. A parent has a right to make those choices for their children. They do not have the right to censure others.People who try to ban books are not taking care of their own responsibilities, they are hyper-focusing on controlling others. In my experience that's usually indicative of some significant issue avoidance in the person attempting to control others. Exactly the sort of person I would not begrudge the right to make choices for themselves but in no way do I want them making choices for me.
I guess I am not being clear here. What my trouble is I don't see that taking a book off a libary shelf is the same as taking one off a reading list.In the first case the issue often centers on I don't like those people. I want to make sure those people don't have a voice to confuse my child. So get rid of that book. Sometimes though it is an idea and not a group of people.
In the second case the issue can be my people have a long hard struggle. It has taken us a long time to get any rights and a voice. Before we did we had to live with a lot of false hurtful images. I think this book has those hurtful images and would appreciate if another book could be found to read. Though I have no problem if someone wants to read the book on thier own.
In the first case I want to buy the person a one way ticket to Iran. In the second case believing in the inhernt worth and dignigty of ever person I have to stop and listen. They might be wrong but, still I do question what is more imporatant the human being or the ideal?
Are you sure you want to stand by the idea that educators can't make wrong decisions about selecting books. That putting Goosebumps on a school reading list is not a cop out, that Sarah Plain and Tall good book that is doesn't below on the sixth grade list, that you are willingly to hunt the world over for the children's version of Pilgram's Progress, that having Scott Westerfield's Midnighters on a middle school reading list is perfectly correct even if does have underage drinking, reduces adults to being idiots, and the flattest character since Flat Stanley. Especially since this same list would never accept Walter Dean Myers. That The Girl Who Ruled a City is also a good choice. This is the book that proved that the only thing worse than an Ayn Rand novel is novel with the same ideas written for children.
The above are just some of the examples of what I have seen on schools list that while I am not protesting my eyebrows are raised. I am also glad I don't have a child in the school system
Also is ideal of free speech so important that we don't have to be concered with the human cost? That it is perfectly okey for Nazi to march where Jewish surviors of the Holocaust live, that one frantic religous freedom and speech trumps a greving father's right to bury his dead solider son in peace, and that anything should be publshed even if 98 percent of country cries no.
That while guarding the front door of liberty you can miss the theif of liberty coming through the back door and taking liberty away. Remember Hilter was elected and he spewed his hate because of course such speech couldn't possibly lead to concertration camps.
Or in other words if the Bill of Rights is the last word on freedom and we don't dare mess with it then the NRA is also right with thier argument that a man buying a single shot rifle to shot deer is the same as an insane man buying an automatic rifle with a gun clip that shots an unbelievable number of bullets per second. So, in order for the frist man to have his right we must nake the second man has his right.
Pandora Kat,As a booklover and taxpayer you might see if you can meet with some English teachers in your public school system and suggest some books to them that they may not be aware of. I like Westerfeld as a reader, but I'm not sure I'd teach him. The books on the list may be books that are recommended for students to read outside of school, not books that are taught by the teachers. I have taught Walter Dean Myers. Do you see classics on that list? I hope we can assume that the teachers are teaching some classics of literature. Those may not come up on a grade level list of books.
I believe that freedom of speech is everything. I do not believe that the government, schools or anyone other then parents of young kids have the right to banned any form of lituture, music or speech. I believe that is for parents if there is a book or game or song that their kid wants to read or play or listen to it is for the parents to decide wheather it is appropriete or not. Sorry I can't spell.
I work as a libraian and have worked with the people who devised the list. We have managed to make some changes but there are still problems that won't be fixed. One thing I have learned is that it is very hard to crack the wall educators build around themselves.The list with Westerfield is a summer reading list. The other problem with Westerfield is there is nothing else of his that I can put on the children's floor. We need alternate choices in order to ensure that everyone can read at least four books.
Elizabeth I am not saying that freedom of speech should be throw out. All I am asking is do you believe that Educators are the Gods of literature and will always make the corect choice in what books to teach. Cause as a librarian I have see some pretty crazy assignements as I mentioned above. I am also asking if a parnet questions an assigned book does that really make them a banner?
Also if everything shold be published than you are okey with the pedophile's book instructional mannual?
It was John Adams who said, "There is never a democracy that did not commit sucide." From Brainy quotes. What I am concered with are we headed in that direction?
The heart of my questions though is people love to make issues black and white. Yes or no. The older I get (to parpharse Billy Joel) the more shades of grey I see. So, what I am asking is banning a simple black or white or is it more complex.
Pandora, I also am a librarian, at a public library, and have also seen students bring in some what appear to me as strange assignments, but while Educators are NOT the Gods of literature and will NOT always make the correct choice in what books to teach, nobody is perfect, after all, but it is part of their job to make that choice to begin with. Someone has to start the ball rolling, of course. If a parent has a problem with an assignment, they can have a discussion with the teacher about it regarding why the teacher did pick that particular book and what problems the parent has with it and hopefully come to some sort of compromise. The teacher did pick it for a reason, whatever that may be. If a parent questions an assigned book that does not make them a banner, if they try to keep every child and not just their own from reading that assigned book, that is what makes them a banner. As I said before, parents have the right as parents to decide for their own children what they may or may not read, they do not have the right to decide for anyone else's children. Regarding that if everything should be published, I say the only way to be fair is it either has to be all or nothing. What is one man's trash is another man's treasure. It is no more fair for someone to try and prevent someone else from reading that pedophile's book instructional manual than it is to prevent them from reading a mystery by Agatha Christie or a romance by Nora Roberts or a book on how to make bombs. Ideas should never be restricted. Actions based on those ideas is another story, though. Like I said before, if you don't like the book, then don't read it, but don't try and stop someone else from reading it. And besides, that pedophile has every right to write down his thoughts, but that is not say that anyone else HAS to publish it or sell it for him. Once it is published, though, and someone else has acquired it and is reading it, no one can stop that person from reading it, that is where censorship comes in to play, really.
Mod
I don't think I can add anything much here, I agree with most of what you have stated. One thing that always bothers me, is that often, if a book is challenged and/or banned, it is one parent or maybe a few parents in a class of, say thirty students, who is/are causing all of the problems. If in a class of thirty students, most of the parents object to a book being used, then there might be a real problem. However, it only one, or a few parents are making a fuss, then the ONLY thing that should be done is maybe give the student(s) affected an alternative assignment.
However, for me that also depends on the students' age and what their own wishes and desires are; school boards, teachers etc. should also listen to what the students themselves are saying, and if a student wants to and desires to read an assigned book, but the parents object, that should also be taken into consideration, especially if the students are in High School. It is acceptable to allow a student an alternative assignment, or an alternative book, if his/her parents object, but I firmly believe that it is completely wrong for parents, especially one, or a few parents to attempt to dictate what all students can and should be reading.
So, I'm a teacher, not English but special ed. (And boy howdy I am not a god of literature-- or anything else!)I was teaching a high school class - self-contained- meaning I taught them all their subjects of emotionally disabled students. Anyway, I was set to teach my four (yes, four) students Whale Talk. I told the administrator I was about to teach a frequently banned & challenged book. So he suggested I send home a permission slip. I had three boys and one girl. The girl's mom wouldn't sign the permission slip.
She (my student) wanted a different book. It turns out she wanted a "girl" book. So I ended up teaching Whale Talk and Speak at the same time. It was harder for me, but we all learned more.
Mod
I was teaching a high school class - self-contained- meaning I taught them all their..."
I think that was a perfect solution. And, the mother obviously did not really object to the book because she seemed alright with having both books taught at the same time. I guess this can be a bit more of a problem if you have a very small class, like you did. Teaching very small classes is often just as difficult and problematic as teaching classes that are too large.
No I don't think the mother objected to the subject matter at all, it was her daughter who wanted to read a similar book with a female protagonist.(It was also a 9-12 grade classroom, which added to the difficulty.)
Mod
(It was also a 9-12 grade classroom, which add..."
Great for the students that you managed to be able to do both books, but yeah, more work for you. Oh wow, grades 9-12 in one class, that reminds me of the old one room school houses where all grades were taught by one teacher in one room. It must have been a heck of a lot of work for you.
Yes, it was a lot of work! In one-room school houses the older kids often taught the younger ones, I've read and been told and I rarely had that option. (My Mom taught in one for a year, the same one one she attended for many years.)Bringing this back to Pandora Kat's issue,
Are you a public librarian? Do you know the school librarians where this/ these teachers teach? They may have some tips for you on how to work with this teacher. Or, just save your efforts (and pity) for the students in these classes and suggest to them lots of great books!
I am a public library. Sorry about my crack of Gods of literature. It was frustrartion that I didn't seem to get my point across.As for working with the schools we have tried. Call the principals, talk to parnets,sent flyers, little progress. Ironic thing is the board of ed shares half of our building but, you wouldn't know it.
Though I do get frustrated with teachers at times I do know most of the teacher do a great job. It just from my end the ones that stick out are the ones who don't.
What really scares me is idealouges. I see so many people get forzen in their postions that they won't even listen to the other side and they begin to demonize the other side. There was time when there was such thing as a liberal republican and a conservative democract. Most of the our great moments as a nation happened when people learned to compromise. If they don't well it not long before people are shooting at each other.
I do agree the best solution is for teachers and parnets to talk to each other and work something out.
I guess what was bugging me is I felt in a few posts we are all quick to denouce the banner without thinking did they have a point. I did it myself and I wasn't happy about that.
I believe that freedom of speech is our first basic right from God. Its the reason we can sit here and talk about what we believe without being afraid that cops are going to bust throught the door and drag us off to jail for what we say we believe in. Now I don't believe that some teachers think of the ages of the kids that they teach when they assign books to read. But you know not all parents are the same. I don't have any kids of my own but I belive books like "Twilight" are not for anyone under the age of 13 especially "Breaking Dawn" which I believe is not for anyone under 16. But you know what if there is a parent out there that says it is ok for my 10 year old to read it, then ok. But I think if there is a book that is on a list that a parent says is not approprate for his/her child then there should be something else for that child to read but to say that none of the kids in that class can read it then that isn't right.
When my son was about 7 or 8 years old he started complaining about bed time for the first time in his life. I made a deal with him. The deal was that he could stay awake as long as he liked any night of the week as long as he was in his bed and reading. I placed no restrictions on what he read but did create a "you must be prepared to discuss what you are reading at any time" caveat. I meant it and stuck to it, too.
The first two nights he fell asleep with his bedside lamp on and dragged in tired from school the next day. Thereafter he read until he got tired and then turned his light off and went to sleep. He never complained about bed time again. He's 30 years old now and he's still a prolific reader. He's convinced that my deal with him was what gave him a lust for learning and the sense of independence that enables him to know he can figure anything out if he can find the information he needs. He's thanked me for that deal dozens of times throughout his life and now he has a similar deal with his oldest son who is turning into a reader.
He thinks of himself as a critical thinker. He sees himself as responsible for his own actions. He knows the difference between fantasy and reality, and he knows he can only be influenced by what he chooses to be influenced by.
I disagree with censuring reading of any material for children. I respect that most parents would disagree and don't feel a need to force my opinion on them, nor will I ever accept someone else's opinion being forced on me. But I know this, it's not what they are reading that is the influence; it's how the discussion afterwards, with the people they respect, that has the most impact. Letting your child read anything comes with the responsibility to make sure they are keeping their own heads and hearts.
A book is only as powerful as the power we give it. What's more, we can determine in large part how that power works itself out through ourselves and some people we are responsible for.
But there is no justification for censuring a book. Remove it from a reading list if there is a complaint, make options available to dissenters, exercise your right to not participate. But removing a book from circulation is, to my mind, one of the most blatant abuses of fascism in our society.
Okey, lets start on the basics. I am a children librarain and I don't believe books should be removed from a library shelf. Nor, as a liberal do I have any patience with someone who wants to remove a book because the book gives voice to a group they want to oppress or they think the book promotes witchcraft and finally and most important that the book is still in print and availabe especially if the public library has to supply the book.That being said I also as a librarian do not believe that every book printed is Les Mes by Victor Hugo. I am having a hard time believeing that a parnet doesn't have the right to question a book that is on the reading list without being automatically placed in the box of idotic book banner.
To me as a librarian I don't think it is too much too ask that a book on a reading list be age approiate, meet quality points ie written well and actucally have something to say (Avi yes R.L. Stine no), be relevant to the lives of the children reading it, (ie Secreat Garden would not be a good choice for Harlem), would not turn off students from reading (Steinbeck's The Pearl is not as a good choice as The Moon is Down or Of Mice and Men), the book is not ethical offensive to any significate minority group that would be reading it.
What does this mean? Well, after reading The Pearl in 8th grade it would take me about thirty years before I would pick up another Steinbeck. A sixteen year old page I knew was assigned Of Mice and Men which lead to her and her whole class wanting to read more Steinbeck. That I think the Settle case of the Ntive American mother vs Brave New World emded in a good way and I don't think it is a case of banning but more a case of pushing education to a higher standards.
Mod
If a book has been assigned, and most students, as well as most parents have a problem with said book, then there really could be a problem and this needs to be examined, and maybe appropriate steps need to be taken. However, if only a few parents have issues with an assigned book, I really don't think that the book should be removed (or rather, unilaterally removed from the classroom). I have no problem with allowing the students of the complaining parents to read another book or get an alternative assignment. But, I just don't think that it is in any way justified to "officially" remove a book from a reading list, from a classroom because one parent has issues with said book. Of course, the parent's complaints must be taken seriously, but I just think that it is profoundly undemocratic and unfair to remove a book from a classroom (to not allow any of the students to read the book) because one parent or a few parents have complained. Deal with the individual complaints, give an alternate assignment to these students, yes, remove the book from the classroom, force the teacher to assign/read another book because of one or a few complaints, no.
Pandora wrote in italics be relevant to the lives of the children reading it, (ie Secreat Garden would not be a good choice for Harlem),I can imagine circumstances in which The Secret Garden should be on reading lists for middle schoolers/ early high schoolers in Harlem. Say these college- bound students who already read widely have read a diet of Walter Dean Myers, Octavia E. Butler and age -approriate Samuel Delaney, shouldn't they also read Dickens and Burnett?
would not turn off students from reading (Steinbeck's The Pearl is not as a good choice as The Moon is Down or Of Mice and Men),
I like Steinbeck, a lot. As an undergraduate I took a science/ English class in Steinbeck. I still don't get "The Pearl" or "The Red Pony," but that doesn't mean others might. And might enjoy it. But if there's a way to avoid it, I'm not going to teach it. I don't teach books I don't love. I can't sell them.
the book is not ethical offensive to any significate minority group that would be reading it.
Sometimes as a teacher you have to teach something that should be offensive to everybody. Should teachers not teach To Kill a Mockingbird because the n-word is used?
College bound students should read classics because it will assist them with their college courses, but why particularly Dickens and Burnett? I would think that Shakespeare, for example, would be more important for them to read.
Not particularly, not only for sure, these were the two who I immediately thought of, that's all. Burnett wrote The Secret Garden, right? That's who I meant, not Carol.Certainly college-bound students should read Shakespeare, but most 8th and 9th graders I've met would need to read him in class, not outside of class reading.
Suz wrote: "When my son was about 7 or 8 years old he started complaining about bed time for the first time in his life. I made a deal with him. The deal was that he could stay awake as long as he liked any ..."I am impressed. I wish more parents had the idea of discussions of books(internet use,music...) as the way to approach difficult or uncomfortable topics. Children will learn what is important and morally correct with guidance not through non-exposure. I love discussions with my children, I have any opportunity to teach them and to see into their lives and learn from them.
Having our children see us putting things into a "good" category or a "bad" category with no other choices or gray areas will just teach them judgement without thought. It also creates an atmosphere of forbidden fruit that can draw them into things that can be harmful, do to lack of knowledge, which I am sure is a consequence that most parents try to avoid.
Mod
I don't know my answers to your question. Unlike everyone else here, I do not believe a parent has the right to say what their child should read in a school setting unless that child has an IEP. Their child is there to be educated. They can discuss with the child at home what they do or don't agree with and can censor books read at home, but their children need to be exposed to these things or it wouldn't be taught. Besides, providing alternate selections is a huge amount of work for teachers and next time they might choose something not controversial.
I do, however, think a parent has the right to question a required reading list but it should be up to the school to review the teacher's decision. If the book is age-appropriate according to academics/librarians/etc. and appropriate to what is being taught, then they shouldn't be able to just change the reading list. But if some teacher is being lazy and just putting Junie B. Jones on the reading list for second graders, the school should know.
I also don't think all parents should give all kids free reign on any book. I think there are some children who are natural/nurtured critical thinkers with good family ties who can handle anything (probably all of us in this forum and our descendant) but that is not true for all kids and all families. As a therapeutic foster parent I can tell you that there are plenty of books that are inappropriate for some of these kids to read at this time because it might trigger their PTSD and/or send them spiraling backwards. No way was my daughter able to handle a book about drugs or domestic violence early on, even if on an appropriate reading list. Another foster child I care for was so sexually abused and therefore sexually inappropriate from a very early age that they had to change the last name she used from "Sexton" to her middle name because it was a huge trigger for inappropriate behavior. This is a child who could not possibly read an age appropriate book that even mentions sex. However, both of these children have IEPs that accommodate these issues.
But even so, there is always an area that I haven't thought about that could change my mind.
There is not 100% freedom of speech in this country. Anything that the government deems a thread to national security or treason cannot be published. I am not sure what I feel where hate and advocating hate and violence and terrorism falls into the free speech discussion.
Hi Kelly,I'm a special education teacher and the parent of an adult who is on the autism spectrum. So when you first wrote:
I do not believe a parent has the right to say what their child should read in a school setting unless that child has an IEP.
I did an 'aroo' and turned my head to the side like Scooby! As I continued to read what you wrote I understood what you meant, and I've taught emotionally disabled HS kids in several different settings, I've never seen or written that on an IEP. Different folks need different things, which is pretty much the point of an IEP.
My own daughter doesn't do fiction well, it's hard for her to pick up people's cues, especially in literature, but I think I'd probably not ever question what fiction she is/ was taught. (She's out of school now.)
I think censorship is more dangerous than the "thing" (be it literature, film, art or other) it is attempting to censor.Given proper context any subject matter may be discussed without ill effect. I think particular subject matters require a little (or a lot!) more tact than others, and need to be handled very carefully when exposed to younger audiences.
Thanks Kelly and Gundula for your comments. I will try to claify my postion about reading lists. As a public librarian I don't view books as the holy grails but, more like a bookseller. We want in our collections books that are going to go out. Ciruclation stats and program stats make or break a public library.
My main point is that if schools were going to supply all the reading books I guess I would say fine do what you want. However the reality is that with the budget cuts the schools at least in my area don't supply the books. So, who does have to supply the books? The public library. Which is way I do get very angry and frustrated having an outside organization tell me that with a limited budget that I am using to get the latest Avi, Judy Blume, William Sleator etc they also want me to buy multiple copies of Treasure Island, Tazern, The Girl Who Owned a City (which is thankfully out of print) because they decided to put it on a reading list. It at this point that I turn to the parent and say we have tried to explain that this won't work but, the schools are bigger than we are. So, I can only suggest is for you to protest.
What this boils down to is that I have no tolorence for people who want to take Harry Potter, Huckleberry Finn, Weetzie Bat off the shelf. However to be honest I do feel a slight victory for the Indian woman who got Brave New World off the reading list but, NOT OFF THE LIBRARY SHELF. Actually as I said in my post the whole issue had me caught in the middle. The public library must have been happy to not to have buy twenty more copies of Brave New World. It is good book but, come on it not one that flys off the shelf and though some kids might love it I have feeling many more were bored to tears.
As for the power of books. Again I am completely in a different place. To me one of the most powerful if not the most powerful forces on Earth is the power of story. For me the real gift of humanity and what makes us above different from other animals is our gift for storytelling. If story has no power than why was Hollywood told to keep churning out pro English and anti German movies during WWII? Why is Uncle Tom's Cabin credited with starting the Civil War? Why did the invention of the printing press bring down the Dark Ages?
The simple fact is that stories have an enoromus power. That is why people try to ban them. It is little hard to keep up homophobic laws when books like Baby Be-Bop and Am I Blue are being published and TV has characters like Steven Carrington and Andrew from Desperate Housewives.
More importantly beyond reading lists and books is the fact that words are also very powerful. Having been a victim of teasing I was grateful that James Howe got it right. Sticks and Stones break our bones but, Words will break our spirits. Though I would say they break the soul and can even kill it.
So, it for these reasons that while censorship and banning have to fought the issue for me is not black and white. It is also for me why the group sometimes for me is a little dissappointing. I thought we I joined it that there was going to be some effort to figuare out the mind of the banner and deal with the complexity of the issues. Instead it seems to me that group is just for repeating banners stupid and we intelligent.
Mod
Gundula you are getting to the point I was trying to make. That it is different when someone has a problem with a book because they believe it present a negative picture of their background. The other problem with some books on assigned list is that someone might miss that the book has a problem. An example is the Dear America series. (I did have a problem with the idea of fake daires but, that is another story. However I did attend a story telling conference and discovered another problem with the series. I had assumed the authors I had at least had some knowledge of the people they were talking about. Wrong assumption. Appartently a white author had written a Dear American book about an Indian Nation (tribe)/Native American group and had broken a major cultuarlly tabboo of the group. She had incoporated the names of actually dead children which is forbidden by this group. The author had further enraged the woman who was speaking of this book by implying that being sent to the boarding school turned out to be an okey thing for the native girl in the book because she ended up becoming a teacher.
Times and sentistiy also changes and what might have been missed in an early time can become glaring as the years passed. An example would be Indian in the Cupboard, Tarzen, Robinson Cursoe. All thses books present a steortype picture of different cultures that were given the go by in their times but, are harding to swallow in these modern times.
The point I am trying to make is that as a librarain I recoginzed books are very indivdual things and people view things differently. Thus, for me an important aspect of the job is to listen to different opinions about books. That way I can judge better who the book is for and who might not enjoy it. I also will listen with a sensitive ear if someone says this book is prejudicial to my sense of being. I might not agree with them but, I can at least try to see their point of view and if they have a case.
As for person who objects to a book because they believe it is speaking for a group they wish to deny a voice to or for some other off the wall idea (Harry Potter is stanic) that I have no time for. What I'm trying to say is for the issue is not a simply black and white issue. That there are some books that do have real issues that should be looked at and might warrent the need to find another book. I don't think is helpful to sweep these issues and hide them under the rug of free speech.
In the long run the human soul for me is the most important thing to be protected and under the idea of Issac Assimov's robtic laws is my zero law.
Pandora Kat wrote: "Appartently a white author had written a Dear American book about an Indian Nation (tribe)/Native American group and had broken a major cultuarlly tabboo of the group. She had incoporated the names of actually dead children which is forbidden by this group. ..."
(I'm sorry this is a bit unrelated, but I have to get it off my chest!)
You know, I have to throw in that those Dear America books and the The Royal Diaries really are what made me love history as a child. I'd most likely hate history now otherwise, as it's not too interesting when taught in the classroom more often than not. I imagine the most important thing is that the books inspire a love for learning, even if they do contain inaccuracies. They teach a child to think in the mindset of someone else in the period.. that history isn't just.. history. It's real people, and real situations.
But, I still do remember the day when I noticed the disclaimer that said the characters were all fictional.. my heart truly broke.
Alicia, I am glad that the Dear American seiers helped you enjoyed history more and I hope investigate history more. My problem with the Dear American series is when people stop at the books and think that is the truth when it is not. I am also glad that you saw that the books are fiction. One of my biggest concerns is that kids might not realize the books are works of fiction. I do understand what you are saying about histroy not being taught right. My brother also hated history until he fianally got a teacher who could teach it. Now he loves history.
As a librarain I do have a high reguard for the truth because the worst nightmare for a libraian is for a wrong fact to get printed. Once a wrong fact get printed it is nightmare to try to get it corrected because another author might quote and than another and so on. Another problem is when distoration get put out as valid history. Biggest example Cameron's Titanic. Yes, kids get interested in the Titanic but, I also had to explain there is no lost diamond, the Kate Winslet and Leo DiCaprio are fictional chacters, and once again poor Murdock (a hero in Ireland) is painted as a villian, and on it goes.
As for the Dear American series I understand what they are trying to do but, really is it asking too much for a little more senstivity and accurancy especially for a group of people who have never know anything but, lies and betrayls. My personal view is ether get it right when you writing about Native Americans or don't do it.
I do advise people when taking out the Dear Amercian series that it is fiction and most importatntly be careful if the author is writing outside their cultural group. Not that people can't but, there is greater chance for insenstivty especially with a group people are so unfamilar with. My ususally solution for a book I don't like it is to ignore it like Diary of a Wimpy Kid or to also suggest something else.
Do you know about the interactive history adventure series? It is a series of books that tell about various historical events from different point of views. You choose who you are and what happens. Choosing a character is what makes the series so good because it show events from many different points of view. Ex In the Undergroud Railroad series you can be a runaway slave, a conductor, or a slave catcher. Another plus of the series is that they stick to the facts.
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The Canadian version of the "Dear Canada" series seems to be quite a bit better. I have read a lot of the books and have enjoyed many of them. But like the "Dear America" series, these are also fictional diaries and while the ones I have read appear to be historically accurate (and culturally sensitive), I would never teach these as historical truth, I would make sure my students were aware of the fact that these books are historical fiction.
I read a Royal Diary book, about a Namibian princess (I think, she was from Southwestern Africa, a Portugese colony)and didn't care for it at all. It was very poorly written. But when I researched this princess nearly everything the author could get wrong, she did get wrong. And it was written by a pretty major African American author, too, as I recall. But I can't find the title or name of the book...On the other hand I do recommend Walter Dean Myers's The Journal of Biddy Owens: The Negro Leagues, Birmingham, Alabama, 1948. It was believable as human history and compares favorably to what I have read about the Negro Leagues. However, it is about baseball and if that's not your thing, this book might not be as well.
Gundula wrote: "The "Dear America" series has some really atrocious historical inaccuracies and the one Pandora mentioned My Heart is on the Ground: the Diary of Nannie Little Rose, a Sioux Girl, Carlisle In..."</i>Thank you for recommending [book:A Broken Flute: The Native Experience in Books for Children, Gundula. I just put it on hold at the library. As a library student who is currently taking a collection development course, I think that a book like this would be essential for librarians.
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You're welcome. I had to get my copy through Interlibrary Loan, so I am seriously considering buying a copy of the book. I think it is an essential research source, as it also has a large number of reviews (most libraries should have a copy, but my local library is not buying many research type books at the moment).
Julia could the book you were talking about be Nzingha by Patrcia Mckissack?It is books like the Dear America series I was thinking of when I stared this discussions. My point was that just because a book is in print doesn't mean it should be choosen to be spotlighted for a reading list. Putting a book on a reading list for me is akin to given a movie a golden globe or oscar.
In other words while I wouldn't agree to banning Friday the 13th or Birth of a Nation I think people would be justify in objecting to these movies being showed in a film apprection class. I am not saying they shouldn't be watched but, that their educational value is highly questionable.
The crux of my question is if people find a flawed book on a reading list what are they to do? What would youd do if your school put the Dear Amercian series on a reading list? Even worse on a summer reading list which means the child reads the book on their own with no guidance from a teacher.
is the one I was referring to, Pandora Kat. Thank you!If I knew the teacher who was putting books like Nzingha: Warrior Queen of Matamba, Angola, Africa, 1595 on a summer reading list, I might say "Why did you put this on the list? What were you hoping your students would gain from it?" And I would tell her/ him my experience of the book.
On the other hand, "Birth of a Nation" changed filmmaking -- and American society. Longer, bigger stories could be told in film after it. The movie palaces could charge more for a movie, because "Birth of a Nation" cost more. People came and saw it again and again. At the time, movies were aound for a week and then gone. "Birth of a Nation" stuck around for months, which was unheard of at the time. The NAACP was founded a seven years before, but the movie also made violence against blacks happen more, and more cities started NAACP chapters.
If I were teaching a film history course and any time at all was spent on the silent era, besides the silent clowns who are my favorites, I would show scenes from "Birth of a Nation," in context. That D.W. Griffith was a great filmmaker and a racist. That his version of American history, became the American story for many, many people for a long time.
"Friday the 13th" on the other hand would find no room on my syllabus.
(References on "Birth of a Nation" came from a recent TCM documentary "Moguls and _____.")
I realize that Birth of a Nation is considered important because it was techincally different however unless you were a film historian the movie is pretty much unwatchable. I saw only half of the moive because Blockbuster didn't have the other half. The first half was so completely awful that I had no desire to find the second half. There are also more choices for showing serious silents such as Intolernce (Griffth's apology for Birth of a Nation), The Wind, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Sunrise, Sparrows, Metropolis, Dr. Jekyell and Mr. Hyde, The Great Train Robbery, The Lost World (stop animation begining point for King Kong), Phantom of the Opera, and most importantly anything by Georges Melies the genuis who came up with the idea that movies need plot.
When I put that Birth of a Nation on the list I was trying to find a movie to stand in for the books that although they something for their time haven't measured up to the change in times. Books for example like the Indian in the Cupboard, Tarzen, Pilgrim's Progress (there was a children's version published in the seventies which went out of print - and yes it was on a reading list).
My neice was metioning having been forced to read a book in her class that bored to her tears. (She is a good but critical reader for example she like Tale of Two Cities). When she mentioned the book she discovered that her father had been assigned it and get this her grandmother. Don't you think boaring three generations with a book is a little overkill?
There is an additional problem here to. What do you think happens to teachers and schools when the students and the parnets think the reading assignments are stupid? Not conterversial mind you but, old fashioned and out of touch.
As for myself I will never forget being assigned The Pearl by John Steinbeck and almost losing the chance to discover a great author. I hated The Pearl and it would take decades before I gave Steinbeck another chance.
As a librarian I am very passionate about books. One of my major goals is to try to get as many kids hook onto books as I can. This is why I lead very engertic story programs, read through the collection, talk to students, and use any hook I can get them to take out a book. However the key is to find a book that they will fall in love with because that is what make will make them a reader and give me job security.
However it is difficult to accomplish this mission when you are dealing with reading list that seemed to be designed to keep kids away from books. Also as a librarian my intrest is just not protecting the books but, also in understanding the problem. To me the more important issue is not decrying awful book banners what ignorant people but, instead to root out why they feel it necessary to ban the book.
I understand the desire to find books that kids will be passionate about and make kids want to read more, but I think it's really important to remember that there aren't books that are right for every kid - even for every kid in a single classroom. The book that bored that little girl and her father and grandmother may have gotten the kid next to her really excited. Most teachers aren't trying to bore kids - they're trying to keep them interested as much as they are trying to convey whatever lesson they need to teach. It doesn't help them either if the kids aren't reading.I also think that it's important to remember that sometimes it can be vital to read something that doesn't stand up value-wise to today's times so that we remember how things used to be - so that we can see the trajectory of our shared history as we work to shape where it's going. This absolutely includes things like books with prejudices (racial, cultural, gender, sexual-orientation, whatever), especially because none of these issues are totally gone from our culture. Are things the same as they were when The Indian in the Cupboard was written (or Huck Finn or any other example you want to pull out)? No, of course not. But they aren't all perfect either and it can be valuable to see that. Kids are smart - give them the credit to see the difference - especially if the book is on a reading list!
I agree not every book is right for every kid. That is why I like to talk about books and get input from people on how they precive the book. That is why I also intrested in trying to understand the banner's point of view. The main reason I stared this post was becasue I was getting frustruted that it seem that an objection to a book was immediately percieve as wrong and unjustfied when in same case the person could have a point. I also think that it easy to say that a negitive sterotype can be used as a historical lesson when you not from that the group being offended.
An example would be Gary Paulsen's Woods Runner. A lot of people thought this was a great book. However I wonder how many of them were of German or Native American descent? Though the book takes place during the Revolution War it is not the English who are doing the killing. It is the Germans or the Native Americans killing private citizens.
I finished the book which had one of the dumbest escapes ever writtten. However being both Native American and German I was reading the book through a red haze of anger and disbelif. I expect evil Nazis in World War II stories but, please not in the Reveloution.
Huck Finn is totally different from Indian in the Cupboard. Mark Twain was writing the book to show how times were and how deep prejudice was. Jim is the most noble character in the book and the book is designed to show how stupid are the people who would less than a man. A lesson Huck learns. Indian in the Cupboard is totally wrong and demeaning.
As for kids being smart I have to say that is not always true. I have been asked what happen to the diamond from Titanic, had one boy say it is a pity that all the Native Americans are dead, and a few who thought the Dear America series was factual.
This post wasn't really started about reading lists. My basic point which I am sticking is if the choice came down to protecting freedom speech or protecting someone's sense of being I am choosing the flesh and blood person. Cause I know too well how deep hateful words can cut. As Howe said, "Sticks and Stones may break our bones but, names will break our spirits."
Finally note we banned Xox from this site. So, isn't that example that free speech doesn't protect everything?
Banned Books
Books mentioned in this topic
Nzingha: Warrior Queen of Matamba, Angola, Africa, 1595 (other topics)A Broken Flute: The Native Experience in Books for Children (other topics)
The Journal of Biddy Owens: The Negro Leagues, Birmingham, Alabama, 1948 (other topics)
A Broken Flute: The Native Experience in Books for Children (other topics)
My Heart is on the Ground: the Diary of Nannie Little Rose, a Sioux Girl, Carlisle Indian School, Pennsylvania, 1880 (other topics)
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A question I posed on a disscussion board was does a parnet ever have the right to question a required book. To me this is not the same as trying to take a book off a library shelf. There is a difference between you may and you have to.
Part of this questioning I have was sparked by Unwind. The reason that sick society - teenagers being used for spare parts - came about was because the pro-choice and pro-lifers had stop careing about people. All they wanted was to win their abstract agruement and the compromise proposed allowed both sides to claim victory. Never mind the human cost. This is why there never be peace in the Middle East.
I am not sure if I have post this right. But, I wonder if anyone is intresting in disscussing are there limitions to the bill of rights?