Fantasy Aficionados discussion
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Which Fantasy Author Did You Find Most Disappointing?
Maggie wrote: "I coouldn't agree more with some of these...Anita Blake and Twilight do not even qualify as novels as far as I am concerned...lolI might be starting a war here, but I am really disappointed wit..."
LOL!
I don't usually say this in public, but I've always considered books like "Twilight" and "Eragon" as Fantasy for Beginners: 101. They usually have all the "requirements" but are lacking a lot of the refinements. I made this connection when my boss' wife and her bff started encouraging me to read Twilight. I was thinking to myself, "If Twilight made you hot, you'd combust if you read Kushiel's Dart."
*Note - Lady D, please don't roast me slowly over hot coals. I love you :)
That smile suggests that she's roasting you in her mind, MrsJoseph. LOL j/k
LMAO! If looks could kill, huh?
I'm the same with the Twilight series, but I'm not going to say too much more. I'd like to stay in Lady D's good books for as long as I can!
Hey, it's fine if you don't like Twilight. I just don't like the assumption that only kids and people with bad taste like the books. That's all. The smile means, 'we're cool.'
I liked Twilight for a couple of reasons;It's a page turner - there's just a readability to it that makes the pages fly by.
I like a little romance paired with a little romance
I work with teenagers, and had some great conversations with them that started about Twilight, but moved into all kinds of topics. It's a great way to bond with teens.
No, it's not Shakespeare. But, sometimes I want a fun read.
I thought the writing in Twilight was mediocre, but there's no doubt Stephanie Meyer was immensely successful at telling a story. I think you have to separate the technical aspects of the writing from the storytelling. She's clearly good at the latter. One of the most telling facts about Twilight in this regard is that the editor who bought it gave Meyer, an unknown writer, a $750,000 advance. And not only that, she turned out to be exactly right. The book was on the NY Times Bestseller list within a month of release. The major hype didn't start until the lead up to the movie a couple of years later.As for the idea that only people with bad taste like the books...well, I admit I didn't care for Twilight. The story itself just isn't my cup of tea. That said, I know a lot of people, not just teens but women in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, who are highly educated, professional women, and who also are very well-read in literature generally, who loved the books.
I do think it is an unfortunate human reaction that when one doesn't like something like Twilight, it has to be degraded, along with its readership. This phenomenon becomes more pronounced the more successful a work becomes.
Twilight wasn't for me, but I know from first-hand experience that plenty of intelligent, discerning readers thought the book were great. And that's how it ought to be, in my view.
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Hey, it's fine if you don't like Twilight. I just don't like the assumption that only kids and people with bad taste like the books. That's all. The smile means, 'we're cool.'"
I was joking :) I know you love me!
Note - I don't think anyone who reads - period - to have bad taste in books. Personally, I feel what you read is up to you. There are YA books that I read all the time - Watership Down being a personal favorite. I love seeing popular novels garnering so much attention that people who normally don't read are also excited. I read and enjoyed The Da Vinci Code but to ask the people at MR(Mobileread) the Da Vinci Code is nothing but drivel only a mentally retarded chimp would love.That being said, I still feel I should be able to pick on the books :) - as long as it is all in fun and there is no attempt to ridicule someone's personal tastes.
I just wanted to be sure, MrsJoseph. :)Scott, I appreciate what you've said, especially since you don't like the book. I feel that it's very judgmental to assume that one person is the arbiter of all good taste, that's why I get touchy about the Twilight situation. I know lots of well-educated, erudite readers whose opinions I respect (including myself) who enjoy those books. I also know people who don't like them, and I respect them too, so long as they respect the right of others to enjoy and to think highly of the Twilight books if that's their tastes.
That goes for anything, really. I don't personally enjoy all the books my sister reads, and vice versa, but that's cool, because we are happy that we enjoy what we read, even if it's not the same genres all the time. If we all loved the same things and had exactly the same taste, life would be extremely boring.
Tell me about it... and we would never be able to recommend anything to anyone, either. :(
I agree, MrsJoseph.I don't care for Dan Brown, for example, and I didn't finish The Da Vinci Code. But I have many friends who loved it, and I think that's great. I liked The Historian, and many of them hated it.
There are a lot of good YA books out there. I recently read Hunger Games, and thought that was quite good. His Dark Materials is another good series. As is the series starting with Sabriel, by Garth Nix.
I like to read just about any genre, and I like books ranging from pure action, entertainment books that you don't think much about, to Lolita, which I am re-reading now and which offers a lot of fun in the actual analysis of the work itself.
If people are reading, it's all good. Tastes differ.
Thanks Lady Danielle. I didn't think Twilight was bad, it's just not my sort of story. I read it because my daughter, who was 13 at the time, wanted to read it, and I thought 'Hmmmm...vampire romance. I better read this first and see how explicit it gets." I have a friend who writes paranormal romance dealing with vampires and they get quite steamy.My daughter devoured the series, and I credit it with getting her reading a lot more. She read for pleasure when she was little, then stopped for a number of years. Twilight jump-started her interest in books again and now she reads more. As a father, that alone makes Meyer good in my book :)
You might find this interesting, R. Scott. Along with Artemis Fowl, Twilight actually got me newly interested in reading young adult fiction. I like the novel storytelling that I'm seeing, and the ability to engage without relying on the crutches of sex and violence that some of the adult books have. There is such a wide variety of kinds of stories in YA literature nowadays. So, I read a lot of YA now, in addition to adult-aimed books. I freely admit I am a big romance fan, and I find Twilight romantic in a fresh, innocent way. I like that she was able to write a passionate love story without making it about lust and sex. Not that I have a problem with sensual elements, but sometimes I get over-saturated with those elements.
Lady Danielle:I agree, there are some excellent works of fiction out there for the YA market. I think adults have a tendency to discount them as kid's stories, but in truth there are many that are every bit as complex, and as good, as books written for adults.
I also agree regarding sensual elements. I don't mind them, and they fit well in some stories, but they're often overdone and come across as gratuitous. Nice to see authors accomplish the same sort of things without taking the easier route.
Speaking of such things, I am re-reading the book Lolita, by Vladimir Nabokov, which I first read a number of years ago. Nabokov writes this story without resorting to gratuitous or explicit sexual content (though I suppose it was racy for the 1950s, when it was published). An excellent book, if you've never read it. The use of language is tremendous, and even more impressive in that Nabokov wrote it in English, his third language behind Russian and French. Probably the best use of an unreliable narrator I've seen, and the wordplay itself makes the book work the read. But, getting back on topic, Nabokov produces a book in Lolita that is, at its core, about sexual subject matter (and objectionable deviant sexual subject matter at that) without ever allowing the work to degenerate into anything crude.
R. Scott wrote: "I agree, MrsJoseph.I don't care for Dan Brown, for example, and I didn't finish The Da Vinci Code. But I have many friends who loved it, and I think that's great. I liked The Historian, and many ..."
Have you tried The Dark Is Rising Sequence? It's a great Arthurian tale that isn't as heavy handed as a lot of them are. I read them first in middle school - what a magical experience! I refused to watch the movie (the trailers let me know I wouldn't enjoy) but the books i recommend 100%.
Let me drop back a couple of comments (Please?) and say, when I review a book I can only review it based on "my" experience of the book. I try always when I give a poor or (sometimes)a scathing review ( don't often do the latter but I have) I try to point out to people that this is my take on the book and just because I don't like it, actively dislike it or (on occasion) hate it, it may not be their view. Most books will have a mix of reviews. After a while i find that there are people i often agree with more than I disagree (but not always).I've never been interested enough to read the Twilight books. I know up front that "friendly" or "romantic" vampires bug me, so i haven't picked the series up. I have agreed often with MrsJoseph, but didn't care for Watership Down, and REALLY disliked The Da Vinci Code. It's going to happen.
So, I will continue down checking books I dislike, but realize that just because I dislike it, it doesn't mean everyone else will (as exemplified by the fact that I often dislike books that are best sellers). Those who are trying to decide what to read next may still find it useful. I mean if you agree with me most of the time that may tell you something....and if you disagree with most of the time that may also tell you something. :)
Taste is an individual thing. This is proved by the existence of, boiled okra, Gilligan's Island, Pink neck ties, Vanilla Ice and ....... political parties. Do you drink coffee or tea (or both)? That people love audio books while others seem to resent their existence and the same is true about Ereaders. We are individuals and I think that is the best way to be. I don't need anyone telling me what to like. I suppose some do...but even that is their choice.
Just my opinion :).
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Taste is an individual thing. This is proved by the existence of, boiled okra, Gilligan's Island, Pink neck ties, Vanilla Ice and ....... political parties. Do you drink coffee or tea (or both)? That people love audio books while others seem to resent their existence and the same is true about Ereaders. We are individuals and I think that is the best way to be. I don't need anyone telling me what to like. I suppose some do...but even that is their choice."LOL!! I'm dying here! :) My aunt used to force me to eat boiled okra (I think I’m still traumatized from that). I do agree, we seem to have similar tastes (especially when it comes to vampires...I mostly like my vampires staked :) but how could you not love the bunnies? :) The Secret of NIMH maybe?
I’m the same way - I hate people to tell me what I like. My motto in life is “Question Authority” which probably explains why I’ve never joined the military or lived in a HOA community, lol. What if I happen to like neon pink houses?
I’m always a proponent for reading what you like. I have been –not quite – ridiculed my whole life because of my personal taste in books. For some reason the person who’s never picked up a book unless it was assigned feels like it is their duty to tell me that I should “widen my reading to more realistic things.” I always feel PO’d – why don’t you go and actually read a book before you try to tell me what I need to read?
MrsJoseph, I love bunnies, especially with gravy......SORRY! DID I JUST SAY THAT?
I know, poor taste (get it "poor taste"?) but I couldn't resist.
Actually I tried to like Watership Down, but I just couldn't get into it...as in all books, just didn't..."grab me".
As For The Secret of NIMH, I hadn't thought of that since my kids were small.
Uhhhh....sorry about the bunny thing, sort of. :)
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "MrsJoseph, I love bunnies, especially with gravy......SORRY! DID I JUST SAY THAT?
I know, poor taste (get it "poor taste"?) but I couldn't resist.
Actually I tried to like Watership Down, but ..."
OMG, I can't stop laughing.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "MrsJoseph, I love bunnies, especially with gravy......SORRY! DID I JUST SAY THAT?
I know, poor taste (get it "poor taste"?) but I couldn't resist.
Actually I tried to like Watership Down, but ..."
LOL!! Stop it! You'e going to get me in trouble at work. I was drinking something when I read that. :)
I will sit here, sip my iced tea and try to be good...really. :)
Although I crack a lot of jokes around Goodreads about the Twilight series I, personally, don't think that people who like these books are only teenage girls or stupid adults. Even if the series was read only by teenage girls and these supposed stupid adults, I'm more than certain that a lot of them might also enjoy reading George R. R. Martin, too, which is a much more complex read (mainly because of all the characters and plots).It really does comes down to taste and individual choice, not intelligence.
How many of us read complicated novels, rich with philosophy and/or political ideas, but then turn to brain candy for the sheer pleasure of just being swept away?
That's what makes the Twilight such a success. It's something to take people away from the mundane, sometimes horrible reality of life. And for a little while, philosophy and political opinion/ideas can take a hike.
You'll still find me cracking the odd joke or two around here about Twilight, though. LOL
Jason wrote: "Although I crack a lot of jokes around Goodreads about the Twilight series I, personally, don't think that people who like these books are only teenage girls or stupid adults. Even if the series wa..."And those sparkling vampires... :D
As I said sometime earlier, each reader's experience with the author is different, no two are alike. That is the beauty of reading and the beauty of discussing what we read. If we all liked the same thing it would be so boring. The most important thing is to read, read, READ!
Crack away, Jason. Like I said, I don't have a problem with someone not liking what I like. I don't like people belittling me because I don't share their tastes, you know?Mike, I like the way you phrase your reviews. I will definitely say I don't like a book in my review, but a review is what I feel about a book. It's not the last word on what is good or bad literature. That's not for me to say.
MrsJoseph, I am not a big fan of being told what to think, so I agree with you on that. I like making up my own mind about things. I never had any intention of reading Twilight. I wasn't into YA romance. I saw the movie and I really liked it, and decided to read the book, and I loved it. But that's just me. It appealed to me in a way that it probably doesn't appeal to many of my fellow members on this group, and that's perfectly fine.
Jason, I will be the first to tell you, I am not big on reading literary fiction and heavily political/philosophical books. I did my share of required reading of these in school, and some I hated, some I loved, because of how they affected me personally when I read them, and what thoughts they inspired in me personally. I like to read stories that give me a story and encourage me to derive my own meaning from them. My tastes are kind of all over the place save for the above. I don't like stuff that is really depraved, and that's one line for me. I don't like preachy books either (and I'm not just focusing on religion here). I don't like books that are supposed to be so great because all the literary minds pronounced them great. Just because they did doesn't mean I will. In fact, I'm likely never to read those books. :)
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Crack away, Jason. Like I said, I don't have a problem with someone not liking what I like. I don't like people belittling me because I don't share their tastes, you know?Mike, I like the way y..."
You don't like preachy books? I guess you're not a fan of The Alchemist, huh? :)
That's on my list of books I probably won't ever read. It just seems overhyped. :)
I read it first for a (co-worker) bookclub I was in a few years ago. Gosh, I read more books that I could care less about with them. The Alchemist was the best that they came up with - I brought them Poison Study :)
I used philosophy/political opinions and ideas as a metaphor for more intelligent reading. You could also class books with more complex plot lines and writing style into this catagory. And even if you're reading only for escapism, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. At least you're reading, as the saying goes. Which is far better than most of the population.
And heck, I love a lot of the same books you do. :)
I would never think and never thought that the people who read Twilight have bad taste. I actually thought the first book wasn't too bad. Wasn't too fond of knowing that vampires now sparkle, but hey, it was okay.I think it was the hype that start to deter me and when I was forced, by die-hard Twilight fan, to go and see the movie, it put me right off the books. I was half way through the third book and I've never gotten around to finishing it.
It's a silly excuse, I know, but that's why I've never really managed to enjoy them. They are in my pile of shame :)
I don't think forcing anyone to read or watch something is a successful tactic. It certainly doesn't work on me. Books, movies, music, tv shows that were forced on me usually end up being ones that I dislike.Jason, I have noticed we do love a lot of the same stuff. I usually manage to take home a lot from most of what I read. The only time I feel a book is brainless is when I'm so completely bored I am not even paying attention, and I'm just counting the pages until it's over. :)
I admit that I do like complex, sophisticated story, but I have to be in the mood for it. I love books that have a lot of symbolism and metaphors, where you scratch your head and ponder what it was the author was getting at. Sometimes I like books that are more succinct and basic in the writing style, but with something to offer. I think that's more of a stylistic thing, personally. I am a very moody reader, so it depends on what I'm feeling like reading, you know.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I read it first for a (co-worker) bookclub I was in a few years ago. Gosh, I read more books that I could care less about with them. The Alchemist was the best that they came up with - I brought ..."I'd go with Poison Study. That had a really good message, and it was very readable. :)
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "I don't think forcing anyone to read or watch something is a successful tactic. It certainly doesn't work on me. Books, movies, music, tv shows that were forced on me usually end up being ones that..."Yes, exactly! The friend couldn't work out and still can't work out why I don't like it too much :)
Lady Danielle, I'm very much a moody reader too. I really have to be in the mood for what I'm reading, or I won't enjoy it as much. I might even dislike a book I would have loved if I were in the mood for it.
I've been online a few minutes now and reread this thread from beginning to end and realized that I'd somewhat made an ass of myself. I sent a message to Lady Danielle but decided that private apologies that are owed publically should be posted as such. So!
Danielle,
I take a single day off goodreads and come back to a billion and three comments ;) I was just reading a long line of comments about Twilight and the right of those to love or hate it etc etc. After reading I realized that my teasing comments may have been taken to heart and I just wanted to take a moment and apologize if my teasing was out of line. I did make a rather inflamatory statement early on in the post but it was honestly intended as teasing. I honestly have no problem with anyone's taste. I realize that as individuals we've all come from different backgrounds and live in different worlds and what moves one may not appeal to another and that doesn't make either person wrong. I don't read young adult novels and I suppose that in all honesty I've looked down on those that do because I saw them as reading novels that were intended for younger readers and that they were thereby reading below their intelligence. It honestly never occured to me that sometimes people Want to read a simpler, easier book. Perhaps I've been missing out on books due to my arrogance. Either way, I'm wrong and I freely admit it and the bottom line of this rather long message is that I wanted to sincerely apologize. I value your opinion, your taste and above all your friendship and I hope you can forgive my thoughtless comments.
If I offended anyone else, please know that I'm sorry :) I'm a pretty stubborn cuss but I don't mind admitting when I'm an ass.
Danielle,
I take a single day off goodreads and come back to a billion and three comments ;) I was just reading a long line of comments about Twilight and the right of those to love or hate it etc etc. After reading I realized that my teasing comments may have been taken to heart and I just wanted to take a moment and apologize if my teasing was out of line. I did make a rather inflamatory statement early on in the post but it was honestly intended as teasing. I honestly have no problem with anyone's taste. I realize that as individuals we've all come from different backgrounds and live in different worlds and what moves one may not appeal to another and that doesn't make either person wrong. I don't read young adult novels and I suppose that in all honesty I've looked down on those that do because I saw them as reading novels that were intended for younger readers and that they were thereby reading below their intelligence. It honestly never occured to me that sometimes people Want to read a simpler, easier book. Perhaps I've been missing out on books due to my arrogance. Either way, I'm wrong and I freely admit it and the bottom line of this rather long message is that I wanted to sincerely apologize. I value your opinion, your taste and above all your friendship and I hope you can forgive my thoughtless comments.
If I offended anyone else, please know that I'm sorry :) I'm a pretty stubborn cuss but I don't mind admitting when I'm an ass.
It's not a big deal, Grant. Sorry if I went off on a rant. I just feel bad for the underdogs, the folks who like a book but are afraid to admit it. You know? :)I admire you for being strong enough to post this apology in public. Not too many people would be willing to do so. It takes real courage. You have my respect, Grant. :)
*smiles* thanks for the forgiveness. I'll work to keep the respect :)
Look, we're going to disagree. A joke or light statement shouldn't worry anyone. I've poked fun at my share of books here. I've also kidded about books that end up on give "lists". I like a lot of the books on the "worst books ever list" and have no desire whatsoever to read a lot of the books that end up getting voted to the top of the "best books ever" list (and don't get me started on the "books I'd rather die than read" list..I could do a stand-up routine on "I hate this book because of what my brother-in-law Earl says about it"). Let's agree that we can disagree and crack jokes without everyone getting their feelings hurt. Sometimes you'll read a book, and simply cries out to have jokes made about it, but there will also be those who love it. Shouldn't be any big deal really.
Heh. I read romance novels. Romance novels readers are the (Feisty yet sultry) red-headed step children of genre fiction when it comes to respect and reading taste. I can mock and joke right along with the rest of them while still enjoying my often well written, yet still sometimes purple, prose.
I haven't read a ton of fantasy yet, but I have to say that I was disappointed with Steven Brust. I read To Reign in Hell with Chris (who is lurking around here somewhere) early last year, and I expected it to be great, but I just thought it was a good concept with a bad execution. I am willing to give his Vlad Taltos series a try though, I have heard really good things about them. Anyone read them?
Second, Charlaine Harris. I really enjoyed her Southern Vampire series for a while, and then it stopped being entertaining and just got boring and tedious.
And I don't even want to talk about how bad her Grave Sight was... Awful. Just awful.
Finally, Jacqueline Carey. I read Kushiel's Dart at the highest recommendation of a friend, and I thought it was extremely disappointing. There are sledgehammers out there with a lighter touch than Carey used to foreshadow in Kushiel's Dart. =\
Becky:That was an early Brust work. Interesting concept, but not his best.
I recommend the Dragaeran "romances" (in an older sense of the world) starting with The Phoenix Guards. Great books. The Vlad Taltos books are good too. The Phoenix Guards takes place in the same world many years earlier.
Oh..also there is a great epistolary novel by Steven Brust and Emma Bull that takes place in 1800s England. It is called Freedom and Necessity.
R. Scott wrote: "Becky:That was an early Brust work. Interesting concept, but not his best.
I recommend the Dragaeran "romances" (in an older sense of the world) starting with The Phoenix Guards. Great books. ..."
Thanks, R. Scott. I've never even heard of those, but I'll give them a look-see. :)
Chris wrote: "Am not."
Were too.
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Steven Erikson (other topics)
David Eddings (other topics)
Robert Jordan (other topics)
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I might be starting a war here, but I am really disappointed with GRR Martin...I dont fall into the 'he shouldn't even be watching football' camp, but 1 book in 10 years? Obviously he is in some severe kind of writer's block and needs some assistance. This book was supposedly already written and supposed to come out in 2006!
As for the Robert Jordan books, I love them, but do agree they are so sludged down in description that they mire themselves. Maybe it's just what comes from having your wife be you editor? I do think the last few were all back on track though.