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What's wrong with a messy triangle?
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Delka wrote: "Hey there,I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes. As an author I think its absolutely necessary to explore the more complex and oftenti..."
Delka as a proponent of more realistic drama in romance, and IR in general. I personally see nothing wrong with messy triangles. They happen in real life, so much rather that be drama center than homicidal cartoon exes any day. I love when each suitor is equally matched. When I'm torn as reader, as the characters in the book. That being said, if the characters are "good", there are certain lines they can't cross for a lot of readers. Or if they cross them, the breach has to be owned as wrong instead of glossed over.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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@Delka: the "triangle" unfortunately is an overdone and lazy trope, which is sad because real life IS messy as are emotions. I've yet to read a romance in which a triangle is written in a way that makes me care about all the characters involved. The closest thus far is Kenya Wright's Covington Campus series. Frankly, I'd rather read an adult polyamorous relationship, lol.
TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "@Delka: the "triangle" unfortunately is an overdone and lazy trope, which is sad because real life IS messy as are emotions. I've yet to read a romance in which a triangle is written in a way that ..."FPD, I grew up watching soap operas, and still call myself a lapsed General Hospital fan. In that genre the super couple was born. The best moments in most fandoms involved triangles between characters strong enough to get viewers picking a side, with passionate ferver. I like it when my allegiance is pulled either way. Though not IR, look how long Janet Evanovich been able to stretch Morelli, and Ranger in the Stephanie Plum series.
Plus maybe I'm boring but personally know a tons of people who have been involved in messy triangles. In my lifetime know only 2 purposely polyamorous couples. I'm not counting open relationships, hookups, or swingers. I don't exactly understand how real life situations, automatically equals lazy writing.
For me, it depends on the characters involved in a love triangle. Even if a trope is overused, compelling characters can make me forget about the convention and focus on their struggle. I also grew up watching the soaps--my granddad and I used to watch Y&R together during summer visits in Virginia, and when I was back home in Philly I watched all of CBS's soaps. I remember loving the Brooke-Ridge-Caroline love triangle but hating the Brooke-Ridge-Taylor love triangle.
Kim wrote: "... I remember loving the Brooke-Ridge-Caroline love triangle but hating the Brooke-Ridge-Taylor love triangle. "Kim I hated the Brooke and every man in the Forester family storyline. lol
Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: "Kim wrote: "... I remember loving the Brooke-Ridge-Caroline love triangle but hating the Brooke-Ridge-Taylor love triangle. "Kim I hated the Brooke and every man in the Forester family storyline...."
When Brooke went through every adult male Forrester, well...that was it for me.
Mod
Having said that, I like drama, just not love triangle drama.
You should write what you like and own it. If it doesn't work for everyone, oh well.
Mod
Mod
I don't write for anyone but myself. An author/writer should write the story that they want to tell. I don't like triangle stories and I would not read a book that has that theme. If I start reading a book and find out that's the theme, I will not finish it. If I bought it, I would donate it and if I've checked it out from the library, I will bring it right back and quick. I don't also read erotic stories. Every story is not for me. I know what I like and dislike.
I love good tension and no, when I say tension, I'm not talking sexual tension. I love writing tension. It's fun. In some tensions, you can see just how much the man and woman not only loves one another, but are in love with one another.
Stand by your story.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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@Pagan: it's a lazy and overdone trope when I already know whom the character ends up with long before they do. When the characters are cardboard cutouts rather than flesh and blood human beings who have compelling reasons, needs and desires. As a reader, I want to care about ALL sides of the triangle, even if one side is a bit of a spoiler. I want that sense when the character finally chooses, it was an emotional journey. That's why authors, if they decide on the love triangle, need to seriously know what they're doing. And frankly, because it is so overdone, it has lost its emotional impact.Now, if you're an author and that love triangle plot is integral to your story, bless you. Do it. But don't get upset when some readers aren't feeling it.
TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "@Pagan: it's a lazy and overdone trope when I already know whom the character ends up with long before they do. When the characters are cardboard cutouts rather than flesh and blood human beings wh..."Okay so the triangles in themselves aren't the problem, it's easy to figure out how it will play out way too early that is the issue. Okay that I can totally see, and agree with to a point (because it's just possible my fave just won the tossup lol).
"I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes."Generally, I don't mind any reason a book is ripped apart as long as the reader is articulating an honest opinion. It's the writer's job to weave the story in a way so the reader doesn't feel cheated.
Kelvin wrote: Generally, I don't mind any reason a book is ripped apart as long as the reader is articulating an honest opinion. It's the writer's job to weave the story in a way so the reader doesn't feel cheated.I agree with your first statement 100%. The second, however, I can support in all cases.
As Danielle wrote, not all readers want the same things. Some readers are going to feel cheated simply because they didn't get what they wanted/expect. Unfortunately, they sometimes feel that way even when the story is exactly what's written on the tin.
I think it's rather a writer's job to write the best story they are able to write. If they're sharing it with the world for a price, writers need to be emotionally and mentally prepared to discern constructive criticism and subjective views.
That said, messy triangles don't work for me. But I define "messy" as doesn't-make-sense-to-me or doesn't-fit-with-my-personal-morality.
I can get behind a story where one of the characters is genuinely torn between two people, where it seems like choosing is going to cause heartbreak whichever way it goes. (Go ahead and make me cry till my throat is raw, authors! I'll thank you for it.) But "messy triangles", as I understand them, usually end up being exactly what FPD described.
Tea wrote: "I can get behind a story where one of the characters is genuinely torn between two people, where it seems like choosing is going to cause heartbreak whichever way it goes. (Go ahead and make me cry till my throat is raw, authors! I'll thank you for it.) But "messy triangles", as I understand them, usually end up being exactly what FPD described. "
Tea it's funny how we all interpret things differently. When I think messy triangle, my first thought goes to your description of being torn emotionally by either choice, meaning someone or everyone will end up heartbroken in the end. Messy, as in the inability to make clean emotional breaks from either situation. Eve Vaughn's Rivals For Love and Sienna Mynx's A Tale of Three Hearts series
. Messy, and complicated but I loved them both for it.
Pagan, that kind of messy I fully support and often enjoy.
Danielle The Book Huntress (Self-Proclaimed Book Ninja) wrote: "Also, I think that for me, the guaranteed happy ending is key with romance books. Some people don't mind cheating, but it really does bother me. In real life it's a huge issue, and it's not some..."Would I accept cheating in real life? No. I've been cheated on before, I know what it feels like and I don't want to go through it again.
But as a reader and a writer, I am interested in what makes people cheat. And in doing research for my books, I've spoken to a lot of people who've shared their reasons and often their reasons have nothing to do with sex and more to do with something much deeper and personal and emotional.
So I try to share that with readers when I write about people behaving badly. And as a reader, I like reading about things I don't do. I like books that trigger emotional responses in me--even if it means I am furious with the characters for doing certain things. I like that. I want to feel that emotional charge when I read. :)
Delka wrote: "Hey there,I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes. As an author I think its absolutely necessary to explore the more complex and oftentimes messy stuff that happens when women and men fall in love. However I get the impression that these themes of mistrust and or unfaithfulness which can occur in any relationship are disliked in the world of IR Romantic fiction. Like everyone else I love and want the HEA moment, however I don't think it has to be totally linear or necessarily uncomplicated. I guess I love drama :) Any one else?..."
Delka if we praise romance novels on the themes, it's only fair that the flipside happens too. What else are you supposed to dissect in a romance novel besides the way it made you feel, and the emotional impact it had? Is it any different than me not finding a humor book lacking because it didn't match my comedic preferences? Or a horror fan feeling the latest King novel lacked expected chills because they prefer Koontz? In my opinion, romance readers are supposed to dissect the nuances of what made a particular book magic or dreck to them. Both of those opinions are completely subjective to the individual. I can't tell you how many rant-y reviews have sold me on a book because the reader hated cheating, triangles, pregnancies, etc because their peeve was my book crack.
Delka wrote: "Hey there,I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes. As an author I think its absolutely necessary to explore the more complex and oftenti..."
I don't think it's necessarily the messiness that occurs in falling in love that people dislike. I think it's more the idea of a love triangle, and usually how they're carried, at least that's one thing I DON'T like. Well that, and when the characters are having the same fight over and over again, and seem to be getting nowhere.
But back to the love triangle, I think there are many reasons that they are hated even though they probably are natural and have happened a lot in real life as well as in fiction. It just represents a lot of things in my opinion. Like the female character no longer has her own agency and the choices about her life are really no longer about her life but what guy she's going to be with. It's no longer about her, even if it's her story. Her story is being focused on and seen through the men she's in love with. It becomes them. If that makes sense. Plus, usually with love triangles, the heroes use the excuse of "he doesn't really love you. You don't know what you're doing" and etc. to kind of negate what the heroine herself stated she wanted/needed (in general and in a relationship). Like, they can just get MESSY for many, many reasons, and there are many things that can just make you HATE a character. If that makes sense. For me personally anyway.
On top of that, love triangles may not even be necessary; it's quite possible for a character to date BOTH people (i.e., be in a Poly relationship) and everyone be happy.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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wordsanddaffodils wrote: "On top of that, love triangles may not even be necessary; it's quite possible for a character to date BOTH people (i.e., be in a Poly relationship) and everyone be happy..."Hi there wordsanddaffodils (love the name)!
I would like to see a well-written poly romance that doesn't just concentrate on the sexual aspect. Funny how cheating more often than not an automatic no-no for me in a romance, but I can accept three people in a triad as long when it's presented in a way that focuses on both the emotional and social pressures of loving more than one person and their needs.
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Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors
(last edited May 20, 2015 06:47PM)
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I respect your viewpoint, Kim. I'm not against anyone who likes reading it or writing about. I just don't. To each their own. Cheating is real to me, having seen it go on in my family, and I don't want to go down that road in my fiction reading. I don't really care about the reasons. The end result is the same, betrayal. Some relationships are able to survive it, but most don't because trust is sacrificed and not easily rebuilt, if at all.
Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: "Delka wrote: "Hey there,I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes. As an author I think its absolutely necessary to explore the more compl..."
Hi,
I actually don't think that there are any Romantic lines I can't cross as an author. Being a Romance author is about exploring and bringing to life the innumerable ways in which love occurs. If I purposefully limit myself from attempting to bring to life any romantic possibility I will have failed in my attempt to write characters that are as intriguing as possible. That would suck. I've acquired an old saying that I'm sure most of you guys are familiar with, "if you don't feel excited, shocked, thrilled, heartbroken etc.. by what you're writing the reader won't either." I fully accept that not all people will like my work, however please criticize me on provable facts, aka that's its shitty, badly written or grammatical inept but I find it a tad hard to swallow the critiques that tell me to limit my imagination. If I do that how can I grow and keep learning?
Delka
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Delka wrote:"I fully accept that not all people will like my work, however please criticize me on provable facts, aka that's its shitty, badly written or grammatical inept but I find it a tad hard to swallow the critiques that tell me to limit my imagination. If I do that how can I grow and keep learning?..."I totally agree with you on that. Just realize that whatever lines you choose to cross as a writer, some readers aren't going to go there. And you know what, that's fine. You can't please anyone. Write the best book you know how. That's really all that matters.
Delka wrote: "Hi,I actually don't think that there are any Romantic lines I can't cross as an author. Being a Romance author is about exploring and bringing to life the innumerable ways in which love occurs. If I purposefully limit myself from attempting to bring to life any romantic possibility I will have failed in my attempt to write characters that are as intriguing as possible. That would suck. I've acquired an old saying that I'm sure most of you guys are familiar with, "if you don't feel excited, shocked, thrilled, heartbroken etc.. by what you're writing the reader won't either." I fully accept that not all people will like my work, however please criticize me on provable facts, aka that's its shitty, badly written or grammatical inept but I find it a tad hard to swallow the critiques that tell me to limit my imagination. If I do that how can I grow and keep learning?
Delka "
It is your right as an artist to go wherever the muse leads. Once that art is put into the universe, you have no control on how it is processed by the connoisseur. Especially when the feedback comes from non-professional critics. They are going to give you their impression on the book. I'm not saying you have to love it, like it, or even care. I'm just saying that is how Goodreads works.
That is up to you whether any of that affects your work or not. I personally don't think any of my favorite writers are thinking, "Paganalexandria doesn't like guys that curse, better not include that..." as they put together their latest work. Some of the best books I ever read had things on my personal no-go list. That's how you discover new genres, and new themes anyway.
And now I'm out this conversation before I get in trouble.
TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "wordsanddaffodils wrote: "On top of that, love triangles may not even be necessary; it's quite possible for a character to date BOTH people (i.e., be in a Poly relationship) and everyone be happy....."Thank You.
And I agree. While reading the Poly sex scenes are fun a lot of the time, it would be nice to actually see them go through a relationship dynamic that including more of the emotional aspects of what it means to be in a Poly relationship, and how things could or couldn't work or what struggles a couple can go through.
And I just think it should be stressed, even though no one said it, that cheating and being in a Poly relationship are not the same thing. With Poly relationships, the partners are aware of each other or how the relationship dynamics are. There isn't anything secretive or hidden about it.
To me, the issue isn't whether "messy triangles" are loved or hated by the reader. It's whether the writer can satisfy the reader in spite of the reader's usual likes or dislikes. If the writer has the skill, s/he can pull it off. (Think of the movie "Mr. Jones" starring Kevin Costner. You actually root for the serial killer.) If the writer brings his/her A game, the reader says, "I normally don't like this kind of material but I liked this one."
A good synopsis can circumvent the entire problem. If readers still rant about the mess, its baseless. Don't buy something when you know going in, it heavily features a trope you personally dislike. By that same token, writers shouldn't waste space on generic blurbs that don't give the reader any real idea of what the work is about. I see this a lot. Either its an overshare blurb, or way under to the point where the book could be about almost anything involving a man and a woman. To me, good synopsis gives nothing crucial away but still gives the reader a clear idea of the main storyline. I've taken a pass on plenty of love triangle books because the blurb let me know up front it was going to have to be something outstanding to get me over my basic dislike of the trope.Forewarned is forearmed. And saves a lot of frustration on both ends. If I was warned from the onset, its on me if I don't like what I read.
Mod
I completely agree. I feel like if I'm allowed to be an informed reader by a clear blurb/synopsis, I can avoid what I don't want to read. It does annoy me when a book is a bait and switch though.
Kelvin wrote: "To me, the issue isn't whether "messy triangles" are loved or hated by the reader. It's whether the writer can satisfy the reader in spite of the reader's usual likes or dislikes. If the writer has..."Yup. This right there. And also what Savannah said.
If a reader knows upfront what themes are present in the book they will avoid those they don't like. For those that soldier on they do so knowingly. If they complain about the theme (rather than the execution of it) that is on them. But like Kelvin said, in the end it is up to the author to convince the reader that this story, no matter the theme, is a worthwhile journey.
I have no hard and fast dislikes in romance, except bad writing and over-worn tropes. Even tropes I hate can be successfully subverted by an interesting story or a fresh take on it. I love messy is a book. Love it. Too often romances tend to trod a well worn line because there are rigid ideas of what is acceptable in a romance. I like it when an author scribbles outside the lines but still manage to bring home a good HEA.
Fans of Interracial Romance
Books mentioned in this topic
Rivals for Love (other topics)Aiden's Game (other topics)
I've got a problem with a book being ripped apart because someone doesn't like its romantic themes. As an author I think its absolutely necessary to explore the more complex and oftentimes messy stuff that happens when women and men fall in love. However I get the impression that these themes of mistrust and or unfaithfulness which can occur in any relationship are disliked in the world of IR Romantic fiction. Like everyone else I love and want the HEA moment, however I don't think it has to be totally linear or necessarily uncomplicated. I guess I love drama :) Any one else?
What do you guys think?
Thanks
Delka