Fans of Interracial Romance discussion
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Is it True That Black Romance Doesn't Sell?
Tina, you're right that urban lit does get lumped in with romance online, and the bookstores I frequent have those books prominently displayed in the Af-Am fiction section. They're usually turned face outward and receive more display space than other AA fiction.I agree about the feisty label. That's usually a signal the heroine is going to be extremely irritating and unnecessarily rude to the hero. Nothing he does is good enough, and I have to wonder what he sees in her. Being difficult for the sake of being difficult is not attractive. I need a compelling reason for why the heroine is fighting the relationship with the hero--past experiences, fear, self-esteem issues, etc.
I just posted similar thoughts in the Historical Romance group thread under the Pet Peeves discussion. I notice it moreso in historicals than I do contemporary fiction.
I recently read a book from an author whose heroine was like that and I really couldn't finish it b/c she was so annoying. I wanted to take the hero by the hand and tell him not to put up with that nonsense. Since he's tall, dark, handsome, rich, and has a title, he can do better! Fortunately, these are not the only types of heroines the author writes. I have enjoyed her other books.
Danielle,The following publisher is accepting nerd stories. They're a new e-publisher: http://www.secretcravingspublishing.c...
http://delaneydiamond.com
Mod
How many stories have you read where the heroine was called Feisty?
My character Sanjar is called Feisty and anyone that has read my story can tell you that she's not annoying.
Like I've said before, people see different things.
A heroine doesn't have to be called feisty to be annoying. And if black heroines in other books are called feisty and they are annoying, I will make sure to stay clear of those books. Then again, I don't have to worry about that, because I don't really read black on black romance stories. Maybe that's where the black woman are annoying.
From the interracial stories that I have read, the heroine wasn't annoying, even if she wasn't called feisty.
Some writers I will read their stories, because I am familiar with their work. Some writers, I will not even read their work.
Arch, I agree with you that people see different things. That's why I chose to respond to Tina's post instead of yours b/c it's clear you and I don't have the same viewpoint. I was simply letting her know that I understand where she's coming from and I feel the same way. I avoid stories where the heroine is called feisty because they turn me off. Sometimes they don't describe the heroine using that adjective and as I'm reading the novel I find out that she is. "A rose by any other name..." If I can get through it, I finish the story. If I can't, then I don't.
I also agree that heroines can be annoying without being feisty, b/c they may have other character traits that are unattractive. However, for me, feisty = annoying. As an FYI, these are not black romance novels I'm talking about.
I prefer not to read books where the women are described as feisty, but perhaps you like that in a heroine. You prefer not to read black romance stories, but I like them b/c I can find ones I enjoy.
BTW, feisty may mean different things to both of us. I've given examples of what I think it means above. When a woman continually sabotages a relationship or is difficult for the hero to deal with--no matter what he does--they're usually defined as feisty and I find that to be an unattractive character trait.
Perhaps your heroine Sanjar doesn't act like that, since you've mentioned that anyone who's read your story doesn't find her to be annoying. But if I didn't know you and your blurb described her as "feisty," chances are I would look elsewhere for my next read.
Mod
Whenever replying to me, don't caps words. That's screaming in my eyes and the internet world. Some people don't see it that way, but I do. I don't and will never see caps as emphasizing.
I don't care what race the heroine is, to me feisty doesn't mean annoying.
I'm speaking in general. It's something how readers judges a book by what is displayed on it.
Thank goodness for interracial stories. I don't care for black romance stories, no matter what the genre is.
I'm done with this topic and thread.
For the record, I was not using the caps for emphasis. FYI and BTW are acronyms.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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I'm with Arch when it comes to players/rakes/etc. I don't care what color they are, it's a tired old trope that should have been retired with the 'falling in love with the rapist' plot. Fine, so the hero has some experience, but more often than not authors fall back on this as a default. The way I see it, if a hero is modeled after Lord Byron or Oscar Wilde, then he qualifies as a rake. The rest are just amateurs!I don't mind reading sbout strong black heroines, but it also depends on what kind of strength we're talking about. A standoffish heroine--unless played for laughs--just falls flat. A heroine who's been through a lot and has maintained her dignity and capacity to love--that rocks. I do like feisty heroines but again, some authors go way overboard until the feistiness becomes a caricature.
Well I found this discussion very edifying. It inspired me to do a personal challenge for the coming year to find, really look for, some good AA romances and read them.
Mod
Mod
Hey everybody,This is a topic near to my heart so I wanted to jump in.
I agree with those of you that are too through with the urban/street fiction being the representative for current AA fiction. The problem is that all African-American fiction is lumped together in bookstores and libraries. Just the other day I found myself fuming because of that reason. However, the reason why these novels are on the forefront of the AA sections is because unfortunately it's what a lot of blacks want to read. Period. I live in NY and when you go into a bookstore that specializes in Black books, that's what you'll find because that is what people are reading. I actually asked the owner, with whom I am pretty familiar, why it was that I had to struggle to find a decent AA literary fiction work by those like Toni Morrison, an AA Christian romance novel (my preferred genre) or even a regular AA romance but there were countless copies of books like Crackhead or Confessions of a Gansta Chick right out in the front displays. He told me that people just "weren't buying the novels by Ernest Gaines or Toni Morrison or Ralph Ellison. He said he couldn't even sell books by great novelists like Pearl Cleage (another great writer with unique romances in her plots) or someone like Brenda Jackson. He said the younger folks wanted to read the street fiction and the older folks wanted the standard Eric Jerome Dickey, Omar Tyree, Zane, Carl Weber, etc. I am not saying anything is wrong with those writers but let's face it, they are writing for specific audiences. Now, I am not saying that black readers in NY represents the hearts and minds of every black reader everywhere but I am sure it is an indication of what's going on everywhere else.
Honestly, I am sick of it too. It's why I started reading people like JJ Murray and Claudia Mair Burrey. Although the black women weren't all that different from other black characters in AA novels, in terms of lifestyle, dialogue, description, at least they were doing something different in the IR novel.
Truth is, black romances are being published in that manner because we, as black people, are asking for it. A lot--not ALL--but a lot of black folks are unwilling to try something out of their comfort zone. It's like how growing up, although I was into hip hop culture and all, I would get teased by my black friends for also listening to folk rock, classic rock, jazz, etc. Shucks, people made fun of me for acting white because I did like variety.
Not only that, but those consistent issues and topics are not only found in our literature, music, and movies, but in our nonfiction as well. I believe people who are writing these stories are being inspired by the topics which are found in the media. These topics are informing our perceptions.
How many times does a good magazine like ESSENCE write articles about how successful black women can't find decent black men. How many times do other magazines write articles about how black women have to deal with baby momma drama? Or the limited pool of black men with the 4's-- single, sexy, straight, and successful? The truth is, we see a lot of those stereotypes because it is actually happening with a lot of black people. I may not want to read about it in every black romance I pick up, but I certainly do see it. In those urban/street novels, many people know the a girl in their community just like the heroine/hero in that novel. As a black professional woman, when I go out with my black professional single friends, what we talk about over dinner is exactly what I end up reading about in those stereotypical novels. And the people I know can be found in any of those novels LOL. Novelists who primarily write those stereotypical black novels with the stereotypical storylines, characterizations, and dialogue are in control of the market because that is what a lot of black people want to read. For those who do not, you can start requesting that Barnes and Noble and other chains start carrying those titles you are looking for. I have. I have spoken to managers of stores like B&B or Borders when I felt like they were only carrying those stereotypical black titles and neglecting to diversify. If they see that those titles that carry diverse black characters/plots are in demand by more than a select few people of color, they will order those books. If the publishing companies see that those stories are selling they will allow those manuscripts to get through. So will the movie studios.
Are all black people the same? Of course not. I am technically Haitian-American (with a Guyanese-Indian dad, mind you) and have only read a handful of novels with Blacks of Caribbean/West Indian descent. That troubled me too, because when we look at Blacks in this country, we forget that they are not all American and do not always fit into the African-American lifestyle. I would like to see a love story about a Haitian girl. I guess that's why I just wrote one about a Haitian-American girl falling in love with a missionary in Haiti who is white and British. I thought it would be cool.
But still, let's not forget that those books we see so much of in AA fiction are appealing to a lot of people because those characters are just like a lot of people we either know or know of, and it's true whether we want to believe it or not.
Good news is that as writers--aspiring and published authors--we, at least, have the skills and talent to write those AA stories that are different if we choose to do so. I saw that you guys have challenges in this group. Maybe that can be a great one. Writing an interesting AA romance.
Sorry about the long post.
Mod
Mod
Danielle, you're welcome.Tina, it depends on what you're looking for, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you start your quest for good AA romances in 2011. Here's another one in case you're interested: Body Heat by Adrianne Byrd. It's funny and sexy at the same time. It's worth looking into.
Vacirca, all I can say is, I agree! Much of what you said is right on point. Being vocal with bookstore owners is a good way to ensure that books we want to read are visible and available. For bookstore owners, it's simple economics. They're going to keep pushing what sells.
I was born and raised in the Caribbean (U.S. Virgin Islands), and like you, I'd love to see a Caribbean heroine. (If anyone is aware of any, let me know.) One of my friends challenged me to write such a story. I haven't yet come up with a good storyline, but it's in the back of my mind as a possibility.
Vacirca, do you have a release date for your book?
Interesting commentary. I had a post on my blog about black romances not selling because the one black romance I have, Given, (with Lisa G. Riley) was my absolute worst seller. I don't see how anyone could call it stereotypical: It's a historical/paranormal about African-American shape-shifters who are also operatives on the Underground Railroad. I know that most people who like IRs don't like MR books, but I never really got any feedback as to why this book simply didn't catch on. Maybe people don't like historicals. Maybe they don't like paranormals, I'm not sure. We're just fortunate that LI is letting us do the sequel, Stolen, which is IR and will be released tomorrow. Will I ever do another MR book? Probably not. After all, baby needs a new pair of shoes. I'm in this to make money and if people aren't interested in it, I don't see the point of writing it. I do however find it interesting that readers say repeatedly that they want something new, different and non-stereotypical, but when you write just that it doesn't sell. I got the same result with another book, Pussycat Death Squad. I thought for sure that book would be a hit because it WAS different, but not so much. I've finally concluded that most people don't really want anything different, because my bestsellers are always the ones that are most like my previous books. Oh well, those are easier to write, so I'll just stick with that.
Mod
Hey guys.Thanks for the interest in my work, Delaney and Rae. Unfortunately, I fall under the aspiring category of writers LOL. I have a finished manuscript. A well-known author I met from this site has graciously read it and given me feedback to do some rewrites and I am currently preparing it to send out to some agents hopefully before the end of the year. I do have some chapters posted here (from the first draft) and it's entitled AYITI. Ayiti is a play on words--it's the heroine's name, and it's also the translation for the word "Haiti" in Kreyol. It's about a young Haitian-American doctor who travels to Haiti to volunteer with an organization very similar to Doctors without Borders (several months before the infamous earthquake) and she arrives there and meets a British missionary whose family has been working in Haiti with the poor all of his life. A very strange, but cool, intense (if I do say so myself) romance ensues.
It's an interracial christian romance (christian romance is my fav genre to write) so that may turn some of you off lol. However, if you want to give me some feedback on the chapters I've posted a few months back, feel free. There have been many changes since then, but we'll see what happens. Pray for me. For those who don't pray, wish me success as I do all of you. ;-)
Mod
I'll definitely check out your book though! Sounds awesome. Will send lots of prayers and positive thoughts that you find a nice home for your book. :-)
thanks Rae. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Mod
Vacirca, where are your chapters posted? Can you provide a link? I'd love to read them until you get your book published.
@RoslynWhy does there have to be one or the other. Why not write both. The ones to make the money that you speak of and the ones that are different and encourage Black female readers to read outside that box. Lord knows as a people we don't like getting out of the comfort zones of our own upbringing or personal ways of thinking. I go through some form of drama with every book I write one way or the other because of my subject matter or storyline.
I know that money is a significant part of the writing process for most writers, but there has to be some part of you that need to write these other stories you have written. Some desire to write oustide the box that people are trying to place you in.
What if the subject matter isn't the issue but the fact your readers have "set" you inside this limited creative writing space based on your first novel and they want more of that. Readers are very smart. We are readers first and I know my favorite writer writes for the purse, then it would be easy to change the stories my writer produces by simply not buying the books.
I think if you go back to doing what you assume the readers want based on sells, which can you be sure that is why. What if it's the publisher you're with? Not enough self-promoting of the particular book like you did in one that sell well...ect
Either way, isn't this way of thinking about your writing setting the tone for your future creativity. I think eventually a writer would burn themselves out when they limit the possibility to all the stories that are out there waiting to be created.
Would you like to be known as a writer who can be given any subject matter and excel at it or when somone mention you have a new book coming out they say, "Oh, it's probably more of the same. They always are. I can take these characters out of this book of hers and set them in this book of hers and it would be all the same."
I've heard those exact words said about some authors, especially NY best selling ones. How many of us have read authors like that because they are so formulated in their writing in order to sell books because they write what they think their fans expect. It may work, but they also lose fans that get tired of the same old thing.
Ree
www.shireemccarver.com
I Dare You to Read Outside the Box!
@Shiree that might be a reasonably option if I had unlimited time and resources to write. Unfortunately, this is my only source of income. As a SAHM every second I use for writing is time away from my family. I simply don't have time to write books that don't make money. And I know what my readers prefer because those are the ones that make money. It's fairly easy to discern that Pussycat didn't sell because the female lead was Muslim. I've had plenty of readers tell me that. Which is a good thing because it never occurred to me that would be an issue. No more Muslim characters. Check! Given didn't sell because most of my readers like IR books and have an aversion to reading a black male lead. No more black male leads. Check! I'd like to be known as an author who makes as much money as humanly possible. I've got a six-year-old and one on the way. I've been a writer all my life. I already know I can write anything from poetry to prose, so I don't need that validation. Right now what I need is money.
And like I said, people do say that they're tired of the same old/same old, but when you write something else, they don't buy it, so I'm not sure how much credence to lend to that. After all, those NYT best-selling authors got there from book sales. So apparently somebody out there likes those cookie-cutter books. Take Nora Roberts. That old girl hasn't changed her formula since the early 90s. And why should she? It's like New Coke. Coke has been the same for a hundred years and people like it that way. People like and expect a certain type of book from me, and I'd be a darned fool to lose sales writing something other than what my audience is buying.
Well Best wishes, much success and congratulation on the coming addition to your family!Ree
www.shireemccarver.com
I Dare You to Read Outside the Box!
Hi people,Sorry Lady Danielle and Delaney, I just read your comments. I can email you updated chapters since I have been rewriting based on feedback I've received. Or, you may see the original on Goodreads under "writings." Just send me a message if you want me to send some sample chapters.
Thanks again for your interest and your support ladies.
Uh, about the other posts, I agree with Shiree also, but I understand Roslyn's need to make a living at what she does. I have a question for you, Roslyn: How was the marketing for your work? Was some effort put into getting your work out there to either encourage your current fans or to obtain some new ones? I am sure it's hard to get out there when raising a family--congrats by the way, but are you able to publicize your stuff?
I'm a very aggressive marketer. I have a strong internet presence, a mailing list and a blog. I'm on all the social network sites and all the review sites. I don't think marketing was an issue for those books because I worked even harder to reach outside my usual demographic (IR) to (MR) sites. I've talked about this on my blog, there's a definite line of demarcation between IR and MR readers. IR readers won't read an MR book even if it's by a favorite writer. MR readers won't look at it because they don't like the fact that you've written IR. It's a very sticky wicket, but there you go. If you plan to make money in this gig you have to understand that there are politics and emotions involved on a level that other authors never have to consider and act accordingly.
Roslyn, have you considered writing your other books under a pseudonym? You could then market them w/o the concerns you listed above. Once you're successful in both genres, then you can let it be known that you're the same person and group your marketing efforts (or not). You mentioned Nora Roberts. She writes as J.D. Robb. And my favorite suspense writer, Dean Koontz, has about 4 or 5 different pseudonyms.
Just a thought...
Aw, the Muslim lead didn't sell? :'(
Note to Roslyn...I'm a big fan of yours and have read most of what you've published. I think my favorite is "Try a Little Tenderness." This novel was "different" in my view in that it had all of the elements I enjoy...IR, bright hero and heroine and action/adventure. I didn't purchase "Given" because of the paranormal aspect. It's just not what I enjoy reading about. But, I continue to look for your latest stuff and while I haven't yet read "Let's Do It Again," it's on my list.BTW, what is the "MR" genre? Sorry to be so uninformed.
Sorry I missed these posts. Definitely plan to go with the pseudonym in 2011, even though that's a pain as well. After all, you have to work twice as hard to build a new brand name. Nope, the book with the Muslim heroine didn't sell.
MR=monoracial, meaning the characters are of the same race.
Good, solid topic; I'm yammin' up every word! Thanks for starting the banter. Cassandra
Roslyn, and anybody else here. I'm not sure I know what constitutes an MR. I write IR of mainly Euro-African relationships, and in the wealthier side of society, beause they are human too and have the same emotional and psychological problems. I've been told these (Euro-African and aristocratic/wealthy) does not go down well with American/Canadian readers, but I'm adamant because I prefer to sail in the waters I've charted and know well. Besides I tend to think there are readers who want some form of escapism in toto, so to speak. But since I'm not selling the books by the boatloads, obviously I'm missing something.Another point is that I write full-length books of 90K-140K words and this obviously hikes the pricing. I can't sell them for 99c, dollar, euro or pound. Do IR readers only read low-price books that are only a few thousand or a few tens of thousands words long? What would be the ideal book length for a 99c offer?
Thanks for your time, everybody.
I love Black romance stories that are positive, not predictable and not about hood love. Give me a good Maureen Smith or Melanie Schuster any day. I also have 30 or so Brenda Jackson, and many Adrianne Byrd. Let's not forget Francis Ray and the entire Shannon Dianne War series (the main couple is interracial others are Black). I looooooooove Black love but I do not care for hood love. many of the books are not realistic, poorly written and perpetuate unrealistic stereotypes. Another gripe I have about Black love is that many authors start their prices at $5.99 while IR books usually start at $2.99. I actually purchase both because my preference is for the female character to be educated, professionally employed and strong. So if this is the type of Black love you are writing please let me know. In fact check out those sisters that I mentioned they are pretty fierce!
Mod
I'll have to check her out. Admittedly, I haven't bought any AA romance for quite a while. I can't tell yo the last one I read. Maybe
. Anyway, there's no real reason that I've shied away from it. I tend to read PNR and urban fantasy more than anything else. The only that I know of featuring an AA romance is
. Does anyone have any rec's for AA rom/ PNR?
Mod
Agree with Beverly Jenkins, Brenda Jackson (although her heroes are too samey for me), and Francis Ray.
I haven't read any AA romance in ages. Most of the contemporary AA romance is "hood" and while I know it's enormously popular, I just can't read it.
I use to read Brenda Jackson, Zane, Francis Ray, Mary Monroe, Adrienne Byrd, and etc. But over the years the plots/ story became kinda boorish. Sometimes they are not enough AA in the genres I like to read. Most interesting was probably L. A. Banks books and Shadow Glass series by Seressia Glass.
I use to read Brenda Jackson, Zane, Francis Ray, Mary Monroe, Adrienne Byrd, and etc. But over the years the plots/ story became kinda boorish. Sometimes they are not enough AA in the genres I like to read. Most interesting was probably L. A. Banks books and Shadow Glass series by Seressia Glass.
AA romance is what really started me binge reading one summer bored in my sister's apartment as a teenager. This was my first one (I think I was like 14):
Mod
I hadn't read any in a while, until I read Smooth Play, and I enjoyed it.
I was a big Brenda Jackson fan, but I got tired of all her heroes being players. I'm not a big fan of that. But she's still an excellent writer.
I would love to read some AA that isn't so narrow about black culture.
Well if you are looking for enjoyable AA I would recommend Maureen Smith. When I first saw her name I skipped over a few of hers because I figured her name was pretty boring and assumed her stories would be too. But what do they say happens when you assume? Boy was I wrong. Maureen even has a few IR such as Romancing the MD, and Wicked Games. I Love love love her! If you are looking for an AA that is erotic - try Whatever You Like http://smile.amazon.com/Whatever-Like... or Taming the Wolfhttp://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...
If you are looking for cute loving AA you should Melanie Schuster - Until the End of Time http://smile.amazon.com/Until-Time-Co...It is the second in her series but my favorite and a good loving one from Maureen is my favorite Tempt me at Midnight
http://smile.amazon.com/Tempt-Midnigh...
I got bored with Brenda Jackson because it seemed that all her plots were the same. At first I thought it was because they were mainly Kimani - Harlequin now, I believe that is her style. Please know that I am not taking anything away from her talent, but I just felt the stories all felt the same. But I do want to thank her for introducing us to her models!
Mod
I agree about books becoming to narrow or copy cat. I believe that is what drew me to IR, I wanted something different and with Nana Malone, Shannon Dianne and Sienna Mynx I never know who what or where I will be going.
Kenya Wright has a few that are paranormal and the heroine is AA. They were pretty decent. There is a love triangle in the http://smile.amazon.com/Baptized-Sant...
You can't beat the price it is 99 cents
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Feisty doesn't equal annoying in my eyes.
Thank goodness, everyone doesn't see things the same way.
I can't stand a annoying person period and I definitely can't stand a weakling.
I'm glad that I am a picky reader. A lot of stories, I would not touch.