Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
II. Publishing & Marketing Tips
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Affect of publishing changes -bookstores closing

Self-pub will break the stranglehold publishers have had on the readers and authors, which can only be a benefit to the market on the whole. No tears here, either.
And if anyone really wants to meet the author, take me to lunch. :)
-j

I agree about the major publishers and their draconian system. I belonged to one and now I'm self.
But let me play devil's advocate for a moment. While you(j & Eileen)both cheer the bookstore's downfall in connection to the 'big' publishers, what about the little Mom & Pop shops who truly love books and service their communities?
There is a human, personal side to this debate,not just stick it the big guys. If it wasn't for these indie places where would authors have signings? As flawed as the system is, bookstores can serve a purpose.
But let me play devil's advocate for a moment. While you(j & Eileen)both cheer the bookstore's downfall in connection to the 'big' publishers, what about the little Mom & Pop shops who truly love books and service their communities?
There is a human, personal side to this debate,not just stick it the big guys. If it wasn't for these indie places where would authors have signings? As flawed as the system is, bookstores can serve a purpose.

One of the premier bookstores here i..."
The vast majority of people are not readers ... sad but true. I lament the loss of mom-and-pop booksellers, and frequent them where I find them. However, I also agree with the poster who said that the monks didn't like Gutenberg. There are good authors out there whose voices are lost, while dreck continues to appear on the shelves from major publishers because it sells. The increase of choices and opportunities can only be a good thing.

One of the premier bookstores here i..."
The vast majority of people are not readers ... sad but true. I lament the loss of mom-and-pop booksellers, and frequent them where I find them. However, I also agree with the poster who said that the monks didn't like Gutenberg. There are good authors out there whose voices are lost, while dreck continues to appear on the shelves from major publishers because it sells. The increase of choices and opportunities can only be a good thing.

I'm sorry, but I really must respond to the comment about "those who can't afford the high cost of books" tagged on to comments about being able to download Pc Kindle for free, etc.
There is an amazing place called the public library, where one can obtain books free of charge without having a computer.
/rant
Devil's advocate again. :) What about the writer's clubs and book clubs meeting at these Mom & Pop shops? If we all go online to join 'social media' sites, what happens to the personal face-to-face side of our society? Do we all download e-books, meet on Goodreads and never shake hands or hear a voice?
Monks withdrew to get away from society. Do the shutting up of bookstore cause readers and authors to withdrew from human contact as well?
Monks withdrew to get away from society. Do the shutting up of bookstore cause readers and authors to withdrew from human contact as well?

With all the marketing in the world, you ain't gonna sell diddly w/o distribution. And the big boys have a lock on it. Amazon's new expanded marketing option ($32) now gets us on Ingrams; takes 6 weeks to get in their catalog, but at least we'll now get there, thank god.
-j
Eileen, I'm with CreateSpace and on the Pro Plan and I get into Ingram also. I guess it depends upon who you self-published through. You may want to ask them if they have access to Ingram or Lightning Source.
Don't feel bad about not getting a signing for being self-published. I had a publisher for my 1st book, an agent and publicist and they couldn't get me local signings with major chains. The managers were willing, but corporate is different.
Don't feel bad about not getting a signing for being self-published. I had a publisher for my 1st book, an agent and publicist and they couldn't get me local signings with major chains. The managers were willing, but corporate is different.
I'm well aware of the difference, Eileen. But at least with being in Ingram's system, if a readers goes to a bookstore and doesn't find the title on the shelf, they can ask, and the store is able to access and order.
Even though publishers with big money can push books they want, an even bigger force sways the reading public - word of mouth. There are numerous examples to point to prove this and defy the big boys.
As Simon says :) the problem is finding the diamonds in the rough. And major publishers have no clue how to do this. Thus most have cut their editorial and marketing staffs. Sales staff is different - and the ones pushing to the bookstores to keep corporate happy.
Unfortunate, this is where the bookstores take the flak. And I think a bit unfairly - especially the independent stores. They try to compete with the big boys and get caught in the crossfire and wrongly labeled. I personally know a couple of store owners - one struggles but continues for love of books and reading - the other was forced to close. And I did signings. They lament the state of things just like authors, hence went independent and willingly support local independent authors.
Davis-Kidd was originally an indie, but eventually sold to owners of a chain of indies and is now closing. And the reason I started this discussion. The industry has major flaws, but does destroying one part make the whole better?
Even though publishers with big money can push books they want, an even bigger force sways the reading public - word of mouth. There are numerous examples to point to prove this and defy the big boys.
As Simon says :) the problem is finding the diamonds in the rough. And major publishers have no clue how to do this. Thus most have cut their editorial and marketing staffs. Sales staff is different - and the ones pushing to the bookstores to keep corporate happy.
Unfortunate, this is where the bookstores take the flak. And I think a bit unfairly - especially the independent stores. They try to compete with the big boys and get caught in the crossfire and wrongly labeled. I personally know a couple of store owners - one struggles but continues for love of books and reading - the other was forced to close. And I did signings. They lament the state of things just like authors, hence went independent and willingly support local independent authors.
Davis-Kidd was originally an indie, but eventually sold to owners of a chain of indies and is now closing. And the reason I started this discussion. The industry has major flaws, but does destroying one part make the whole better?

Over here in the U.K. we effectively only have Waterstones as a major country wide chain. It is almost impossible to get your books on the shelves, other than at a local level, on a local subject. If you are an Indie author, which I am proud to say I am you eventually get told 'sorry' we will not stock print on demand titles. The stumbling block is their 'sale or return' policy, and generally this is
not available with P.O.D.. Now figure this out.
My current offering is 'Beyond the Potting Shed', a 'grow your own' guide, described by the Principal of a major horticultural college as the most useful and practical he has seen, this was LIVE on the B.B.C., it has had good reviews in national gardening news papers and gardening magazines.
I use a company called Authors on Line to help me publish my books, they offered to do a litho run of 5,000 available as sale or return, we use the same wholesalers as Waterstones so no problem there, or with the price Waterstones wanted to pay. Apparently the buyers liked the book but they wouldn't be stocking it because it is basically a P.O.D book and they would have problems of supply!
The sooner they go bust the better!! We used to have a chain called Ottakers, Waterstones bought them out after 'crushing' them in a price war, we warned this would happen, but 'the powers that be' decided there was no substance in our complaints that this would limit choice for the readers as Indie books would be effectively excluded from the high street book shops.
Most of our little 'mom and pop' book shops will only sell second hand or local books, and most simply have no comprehension of modern publishing methods, a classic case of scared of the unknown!!
I warned you this was my favourite hobby-horse.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

I totally support Simon in his efforts to find 'the diamonds in the rough'. I differ slightly in opinion as to how to find those 'diamonds', but hey! you have to start somewhere! I know of some books, way way better than anything comparable from 'mainstream' the problem is the authors tend not to enter competions.
I know full well what the problems are, having been part of a similar idea in the U.K. it's the answers we don't have!!! Any more ideas please.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Wow. Nice discussion methodology there, calling another participant's comment "stupid." You were the one who brought up people not being able to afford books, not I. That was the whole point behind starting the library system -- so that people could have free access to books. Oddly enough, if my branch library doesn't have a particular book I'm seeking, I can get it on interlibrary loan.
Libraries are facing funding shortfalls because people don't use them enough.
/rant
Ride that hobby-horse, Timothy! Interesting to know the problem is also across the pond. :)

the truth is I'm getting a bit saddle sore!
Waterstones have, very graciously given me permission to approach all of their stores individually [500+!] but the books would still have to be on a sale or return basis.
Their payment terms suck! 3months after the end of the date of invoice, and of course they put in or confirm an order as early as possible each month, so if you send an invoice for books they ordered at the beginning of one month you effectively have to wait 4months for the check, which can take another week to clear! The other little trick is to order at the end of the month, knowing it will be the begining of the next month when they get your invoice in the post, they will not accept just an electronic one! and the terms are from the date of receipt of invoice.
Oh sure, you can walk into anybook shop and order my books, you'll have to pay the full price, there and then. You will then be told it will take about six weeks. NO!! 10days tops, usually within a week, if there is a hold up it is usually with Waterstones central ordering or the Wholesalers have not noticed it arrive in their half mile long wharehouse! Their truck is in our printers every afternoon!
Anyone got any Balm or Salve, those saddle sores are begining to CHAFE!

Oh, even better. Now it's "don't talk about things unless I want to talk about them."
You know what happens when you do this, Eileen? You shut down discussions entirely. And guess what else? You got your way this time.
Timothy wrote: "Hi Shawn and Eileen, the truth is I'm getting a bit saddle sore!....Anyone got any Balm or Salve, those saddle sores are begining to CHAFE! "
LOL, Timothy! That's why American cowboys wear chaps!
Eileen, nice to know about B&N, although my first book is already available there. Still, I agree, I don't know that I want to get that deep into publishing. I rather stay an indie author and work out things on an individual basis with a bookstore or other venue for promotions.
LOL, Timothy! That's why American cowboys wear chaps!
Eileen, nice to know about B&N, although my first book is already available there. Still, I agree, I don't know that I want to get that deep into publishing. I rather stay an indie author and work out things on an individual basis with a bookstore or other venue for promotions.
48 remembering ice delivery? LOL I'm just a little older and remember when we got a black & white t.v. and helping my dad take the tubes out and going to the hardware store to test to see if they worked and replace them if they didn't. Back when a t.v. could be fixed at home and we kids were the remotes. :)
I also have a friend who did the same with returning books. When I got published and I told her what happens as a result, she stopped. Now she only does it if she finds something really offensive - which, unfortunately, has become too common in books.
I also have a friend who did the same with returning books. When I got published and I told her what happens as a result, she stopped. Now she only does it if she finds something really offensive - which, unfortunately, has become too common in books.

I also think that should be Effect, not Affect, in the thread title.
And while I've entered Homecoming in several contests, I won't know if it's done anything until next year. I do have some very good reviews on it, almost all 5-star. (See my website, http://www.sueannbowling.com )
Oops! :) (author blush)You're right, Sue "Effect". Reading over the post, I've been surprised I'm so coherent in carrying on conversations while battling a cold. Almost time to take Nyquil and go to bed.

It isn't individuals who return books that I was on about. A new book comes out and is hyped up by the publisher, Waterstones think, UMM we can sell 10,000 of them. So they order 100,000!! at a greatly reduced price per book, the wholesaler holds the stock for them. After a week or so they include the book in a 3 for the price of 2 offer. Another week or so down the line they offer it at half price! After being available on the shelves for about 6 to 8 weeks they say they don't want the rest thank you, and another month or so later they pay for the ones which they have sold at the price they agreed per book for the whole order.
Resulting in the daft sight of brand new, mainstream paperbacks for sale at 2 for £1 in bargin general stores!!
Now the scariest thing I have ever come across in the book world. I have just seen a commercial on television from a major confectionary maker. In the run up to Christmas they are GIVING away one Million, that is 1,000,000 books with their main products!!
Hang on a tick! that is damned nearly 10% of annual book sales in the U.K. These are what are known as remainders, as are the 2 for £1 deals and a great many of the books in W.H.Smiths, the only books they order normally are Celebrity titles.
I hope you will all pardon this expression but it seems appropriate here. If ever a business was going to 'rat shit on a rocket sledge' then it has to be the mainstream publishers.
May be Eileen got it right in her last post about raping a book, I think she meant wrapping a book in cling film. I know, I make plenty of typo's too, which is why I have editors and proof readers check my books out before they go to press. It seems as though many 'mainstream publishers' no longer bother with this judging by the number of typos in some 'mainstream' stuff I have glanced at recently! And they have the monumental GAUL to criticise the Indies! The next one who says because I use print on demand mine are not proper books is likely to get a sharp tap on the head with my 'non-book! well it isn't a proper book so it can't hurt, can it?
These self opinionated dinosaurs have had things their own greedy way long enough. This is OUR business, writers who try to produce what our readers want, at a price they can afford yet leaves enough for us to live on! that will be the day! and still provide a living for 'mom and pop' in their community book shop.
Now what did I do with my rose coloured glasses! and where is the anti chafing ointment!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
Author of 'beyond the potting shed' a practical guide to grow your own. And thrillers under the name Timothy Pilgrim, 'The Day the Ravens Died', 'RO'etc.

We're working on it mate, it's just going to take a bit of time and a lot of cash!
Then there is the added complication most of the mass media, daily papers, independant tele etc are owned by the same international conglomerates who own the mainstream publishers. The word 'cartel' comes to mind!
I wish you all the best finding those 'rough diamonds' and will continue to help where I can.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Most of the book stores run by petty traders, whose whole purpose is to supply libraries and other bulk orders. Most of the publishers are not interested in actual readers demand, they behave like God, specially with authors. Authors are most ill-treated person on the doorsteps of publishers. So this has to happen.
Publishing industry has to focus on readers and writers. Gone the days of Big book stores. They cann't afford the old modeled running costs. They are just stagging the books in the selves. This couldn't run by only money-making motive. Passionate enterprenuers have to come through.

Here's an article that points to part of the problem that happened 3 years ago to Dick Cavet. It's not just indie authors
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/...
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/...

Makes me doubly glad I'm an Indie who happened to pick a good company to do the bits I can't do [or be bothered to do!]
I could tell a dozen stories as bad or even worse from the U.K. of ripped off or let down authors but the news papers over here are owned by the same cliques as the big publishers, NO Chance!
But, I for one am fed up with being stitched up and have started 'kicking off' about it, sooner or later someone WILL listen and something will get done.
I have got to write a report on the entire sorry scene for the Office of Fair Trading. Together with a well known campaigner who has to write another report in a similar vein for the Department of Trade and Industry something has to happen on all the restrictive practices in the book world as a whole.
Those we point the finger at WILL be challenged by both the OFT and DTI.
That said, I'm not holding my breath expecting any dramatic changes, it will annoy the hell out of the 'establishment' of the book world. Changes will happen, but more designed to give the book worlds 'big boys' a quiet life than help the little guys. They will not fight as they will lose! they will try to hush it up and dream up other ways to try to keep us on the margins. That won't work either, I can and will, fight dirty if I have to. I don't like, or condone fighting of any kind, but if forced I have one rule, I Win! which is why I'm still here!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
Timothy wrote: I have got to write a report on the entire sorry scene for the Office of Fair Trading. Together with a well known campaigner who has to write another report in a similar vein for the Department of Trade and Industry something has to happen on all the restrictive practices in the book world as a whole. "
Good luck with the report. And remember, it was a young man with a sling-shot who took down the giant Goliath.
Good luck with the report. And remember, it was a young man with a sling-shot who took down the giant Goliath.

OOOOOOOHHHH! just remember kids read this!!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Spoken like a non cowboy. Chaps do nothing for saddle sores. They protect the legs.
On the subject of bookstores. Some of the independent stores in the US are actually doing better now that the big chains are in trouble.
I don't know how all this insanity in the publishing industry is going to be resolved. I do know that as an author I like the fact the big houses are not in control of what gets published anymore.
What the independent authors are going to have to do is figure out how to cross market their books. We cannot pay huge amounts for promotion, but if we are smart, we'll work together.
I know about the chaps. It was a joke poking fun at English and American riding styles. I used to ride both English and Western (barrel racing). And the English riding breeches didn't help the inner thighs and knees for jumping no matter how much padding they put it. lol :D

if you want insanity read my post no. 24!!
And for Shawn! not much phases me, but horse riding is NOT one of my greatest skills! useless doesn't even begin to cover it. I love horses, I am old enough to remember horses being used on farms. I always took a carrot or apple for my favourite horse on my way to school. I can still remember her name 'Peggy'. Small for a farm horse, dappled grey and used to bite anyone who came near except me and the farm foreman who used to ride around the farm with food for the other animals on a light trailer pulled by 'Peggy'
All the best Paul Rix [old geezer]
Sue wrote: "What does a soccer band have to do with this thread?"
Okay, Sue, I give up? What does it have to do with this thread? Beside joining the saddle sores, chaps, and other nonsensical rabbit trails veering off the main topic? :)
Okay, Sue, I give up? What does it have to do with this thread? Beside joining the saddle sores, chaps, and other nonsensical rabbit trails veering off the main topic? :)

All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
You mean message 24 - at the end of Simon's post. Yea, I just went there. Don't know, unless he ends all his posts that way.

The reference to diamonds was about Simons efforts to find a way of sorting out the very best indie books to help promote.
OOPS!! I just checked the link Simon posted, looks like I'm not the only one developing 'dodgey digits' on the key board. Now I understand your comment Sue!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]


There is one shop in London, I think it is one of Foyles branches, but don't quote me on that, which has a machine in it which does produce print on demand on site. It must have been about a year ago they had it installed. It is more of a gimmick at the moment until the technology properly catches up, as it will.
As things stand it takes about 20 minutes to half an hour to print 'your' book and a paper back which would normally retail at £5 to £8 pounds cost over £30!! It has it's uses, for out of print titles which have been digitzed and the likes, and probably is the look of the future.
I just wish these small indipendant book shops would work with us Indie authors , some do, but many have their heads in the sand, I think they are scared of 'the new ways' believing the 'naysayers' who still insist all Indie books are 'vanity published' rubbish.
There is a new 'organisation' over here called 'the campaign for real books' who get press space loudly proclaiming it is the 'ebook' responsible for the demise of so many small shops.
No it's not!!! it is this bl......d 'remainders' scandle.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
Book kiosks? Interesting. I agree with Timothy about it being more of a gimmick. I don't believe it can match the quality of a standard POD printer - more toward the Xerox type.
From the conversation my topic generated, this is a passionate and complex subject effecting more than one country. Yes, publishing is global, but I didn't realize the same corrupt system existed in another country.
From the conversation my topic generated, this is a passionate and complex subject effecting more than one country. Yes, publishing is global, but I didn't realize the same corrupt system existed in another country.

I ought to have qualified the gimmick bit, with 'at the moment' even so the quality of the books produced is still better than the bog standard mass produced paper backs available. If you go into a big book store I'll bet the best quality [physical] books are small and indie press productions. Just another reason many won't stock indies as they make the 'others' look poor quality.
As for the corrupt systems, I think the U.K probably 'exported' it and as is usually the case the americans siezed on the idea and made it bigger!
[jet engines, harrier jump jets, hovercraft etc] so why not the bad ideas as well?
I'm having a laugh here, not 'a go' at our American cousins!.
And I think it AFFECTS most places where people can read!
The question remains, What do WE do about it?
Form some sort of Indie writers union? Maybe using G.R. readers as a panel to pick only the very, very best of Indie books, then use our collective clout to market just the best.Simon is trying to do something to this end, and I think we should all support him in his efforts.
If we can get something going then try to form some sort of alliance with the little book shops to the exclusion of the 'big bad boys' if we have the product they will have to come to us on our terms.
Those rose tinted specs again!, but they are better than saddle sores!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

The independent stores can't afford to eat the cost of books. Small publishers can't afford to deal with large numbers of returned books.
There has to be a better way to manage book returns.

Timothy, I really like your fighting spirit, and I am sure it will encourage new authors like me, who believe we really have a good product to offer, to take a stance.
Effect - Affects - ah! the wonders of the ENGLISH language. :)
Great question, Gwen. I guess I kind of like the 'consignment' idea where indie authors and indie stores are concerned. The problem is working out individual arrangements.
What is Simon doing? Anything like an author's union similar to the screenwriter's union? Not that I like unions per se, but it was helpful for us in Hollywood in setting terms and protection from the studios.
Great question, Gwen. I guess I kind of like the 'consignment' idea where indie authors and indie stores are concerned. The problem is working out individual arrangements.
What is Simon doing? Anything like an author's union similar to the screenwriter's union? Not that I like unions per se, but it was helpful for us in Hollywood in setting terms and protection from the studios.

If you click on that link which took you to a 'football thingy' it should take you to 'finding diamonds in the rough'.
I'm not to keen on the word 'union' in this context, maybe alliance, federation, gang even!!? The point is officialdom would inevitably stick it's unwelcome nose in and unions are easier to register as 'official entities'.
And for Gwen, this is why I use print on demand, you
can literally just have books printed as you need them.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
I meant "union" as in organization - I'm not keen on unions either. I like 'federation'.
I clicked on the 'thingy' and looked at the group. It's unclear whether an author must meet all or any of those criteria to join. I'd join, but my awards were for screenwriting, not my books yet, so I don't know if that would qualify me. I might ask Simon.
I clicked on the 'thingy' and looked at the group. It's unclear whether an author must meet all or any of those criteria to join. I'd join, but my awards were for screenwriting, not my books yet, so I don't know if that would qualify me. I might ask Simon.

As I understand it you would need both on a particular book, each book on it's own merit, which is just as it should be. Personally I'm not sure he has the criteria quite right but hey we have got to start somewhere! and inspite of minor differences of opinion he has my total support. It is all embryonic at the moment but it is well worth trying.
P.S my books haven't won any awards either, one was in the Brit writers awards this year, but up against Terry Pratchett!!?
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
re: Bookstores with kiosks for POD output - that was the pipe dream back in the 90s when ebooks were getting started. Quality of the product would be the problem.
Back to Nashville: D-K isn't really an indy. Hasn't been since 1998 when Joseph-Beth Booksellers bought them [more info at my blog]. J-B is closing many of their stores all over the S.E. Unfortunately, D-K-Nashville is one of them. J-B is in a world of hurt, owing more than hundreds of thousands to Ingrams and also to publishers. The Nashville store was one of their premiere stores, along with one in Baltimore (it's also closing).
My Nashville writing-community friends are at a loss of on what will happen. Very few bookstores left in a city of half a million people. Whether it's "nobody reads anymore" or "everyone buys online", it's a sad fact that more than 60 D-K people will be without jobs come mid-December. Take that times the other store J-B is closing, and then add in the Borders and BN closings--lots of people writing resumes, I fear.
How can indy authors manage through this? [I sadly shake my head] Dunno.
Back to Nashville: D-K isn't really an indy. Hasn't been since 1998 when Joseph-Beth Booksellers bought them [more info at my blog]. J-B is closing many of their stores all over the S.E. Unfortunately, D-K-Nashville is one of them. J-B is in a world of hurt, owing more than hundreds of thousands to Ingrams and also to publishers. The Nashville store was one of their premiere stores, along with one in Baltimore (it's also closing).
My Nashville writing-community friends are at a loss of on what will happen. Very few bookstores left in a city of half a million people. Whether it's "nobody reads anymore" or "everyone buys online", it's a sad fact that more than 60 D-K people will be without jobs come mid-December. Take that times the other store J-B is closing, and then add in the Borders and BN closings--lots of people writing resumes, I fear.
How can indy authors manage through this? [I sadly shake my head] Dunno.

Books mentioned in this topic
The Nine Tailors (other topics)Homecoming (other topics)
One of the premier bookstores here in Nashville - Davis Kidd - is closing and filing for bankruptcy. Where the diversity in publishing choices may help writers and authors to get their work in print, it can have a dampening effect on the reading public. Where can they go to browse? Enjoy a cup of coffee while glancing through a magazine? Where is the lazy, take your time thumbing through the latest release or discount bin?
Online book outlets like Amazon, etc., provide great advantages to authors and quick access to readers to stock up on e-books. But lost in the shuffle is the personal experience of handling a book or meeting an author at a signing.
I see this as a sad problem and lose for authors and readers alike. Any other thoughts?