Outlander Series discussion
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Is this a clue to the ghost?
Moni wrote: "I want to see a scene where Jamie and Frank fight for Claire!!!"Not me, that would be terrible. Frank would have to loose anyway, as Jamie is the hero and we know Claire stays with him to the end so what would be the point of that? Just more unnecessary violence?
Leah wrote: "Fawn wrote..."I might be wrong, but I think those miniatures that Frank showed to his class was Clair & Jamie."...Just listened to that part in DIA and then had to go look it up in the book b/c I..."
It's so easy to miss things on the first read that you catch latter. I think this is interesting too and I didn't much relate to it until you mentioned it. At that time she was also talking about observing his female students having crushes on him, and him responding to them. I think Frank was a player even then.
Wendy F wrote: I don't believe that his vision of her was the time the ghost was looking at Claire.No DG has said on FB only recently (a few months ago roughly), that the scene where Jamie says he sees her in his dream & Jamies ghost at the beginning of Outlander are not the same thing.
I think she enjoys keeping us guessing way too much :)
Wendy F wrote: "He doesn't say that she was brushing her hair. He said she was sitting at a desk and there was strange light, likely artificial. He also mentions, when Claire asks if she looked the same, he said..."Well even Diana said she changed what she wrote in Outlander. Originally the ghost was just something colorful to add, later she implies she expanded on that. So who know where she will go with that?
Wendy F wrote: "Did you guys read MOBY yet?"Yes
Mia wrote: "Hi all. I am only half through DoA in the series. I have been reading all books in e-pub format. I have gone back and checked the scene where Frank sees the ghost and Claire combed her hair by elec..."The e-pub books could be, there were 2 versions an unabridged version and an abridged version. Diana really hated the unabridged version but had signed a contract so had to wait until that was up before all forum could carry the unabridged version. So I guess you have to see which version you have.
This may be why people miss some things as well. As the unabridged version had about 1/3 of what was in the real books.
MJ wrote: "Lynn wrote: "No way, not possible! Frank def knew IMO. "I agree, I think he didn't want Claire to know Jamie survived because he thought he would take Bree and go back to Jamie. I think that's why he kept it a secret from her. If Roger hadn't found that letter, Claire would assume Jamie was dead because of that tombstone.
Wendy F wrote: "He doesn't say that she was brushing her hair. He said she was sitting at a desk and there was strange light, likely artificial. He also mentions, when Claire asks if she looked the same, he said..."Sorry, I don't understand what your saying here?
I was saying that based off his explanation of his dream/vision, and what we know of the night the ghost was staring up at her brushing her hair, I don't believe they are the same thing.Which Zooey responded to by saying that DG said they were not connected.
I can't wait until the ghost is solved. I always thought that Jamie may haunt Claire until they are together and perhaps Claire and Jamie relive their life together over and over. Like, their souls weave through parallel universes until they are together.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "I can't wait until the ghost is solved. I always thought that Jamie may haunt Claire until they are together and perhaps Claire and Jamie relive their life together over and over. Like, their souls..."Interesting thought Venessa, I would like that.
I found a passage in Voyager where Jamie was talking about after Culloden and how he felt. He said: "I was a ghost, floating through rooms. Claire says she knows the feeling but she I had Bree to anchor her to life. Jamie says I was here (Lallybrook) but not at home. I was lonely."
This passage make me wonder if Jamie has the ability to do Astral Projection. In astral projection (or astral travel) a person is capable of an interpretation of out-of-body experience that assumes the existence of an "astral body" separate from the physical body and capable of travelling outside it. The ghost figure seen by Frank could be Jamie projecting himself to where Claire is in an astral body. In another book Bree also came to Jamie at some point so perhaps that is something she got from him.
All things are possible, but I think we'll have to see how DG finally resolves it.
Mary wrote: "This passage make me wonder if Jamie has the ability to do Astral Projection."I took a course in college on parapsychology and we covered Astral Projection. It is a very interesting thought to me. I realized from this course that I use to do astral projection when I was a child. It stopped when I was about 7 years old though. You actually do feel like you're out of your body and can go to other places, be there observing others much like Jamie's ghost appearance. I guess that is a possibility for the ghost.
gertt wrote: "I'm afraid we aren't going to know the mystery of the ghost until the very end."
I must be missing something about the whole ghost thing.
When I thought about it after finishing the first book I just assumed that as Claire had traveled back through time and had spent some portion of her life sharing a great love with Jamie, that after he died, Jamie came to the place where Claire was before she traveled back to him just to check on her (and knowing Jamie, to make sure she was well on her way).
It's similar to the scene from Somewhere in Time - and if any of you haven't yet seen the film, do go see it now and then come back here and finish reading my post - when the now elderly Elise comes to a party where college age Richard is being celebrated. She tenderly places a pocket watch into his hands and says, "Come back to me." She turns away and by the time he can react, she's gone.
Judging by so many readers' ideas that something else is happening, however, I have to think that maybe my interpretation is an oversimplification and that some greater mystery is afoot. Well, that and the fact that DG said the mystery won't be revealed until the last book so apparently there's still a mystery left to reveal :)
I must be missing something about the whole ghost thing.
When I thought about it after finishing the first book I just assumed that as Claire had traveled back through time and had spent some portion of her life sharing a great love with Jamie, that after he died, Jamie came to the place where Claire was before she traveled back to him just to check on her (and knowing Jamie, to make sure she was well on her way).
It's similar to the scene from Somewhere in Time - and if any of you haven't yet seen the film, do go see it now and then come back here and finish reading my post - when the now elderly Elise comes to a party where college age Richard is being celebrated. She tenderly places a pocket watch into his hands and says, "Come back to me." She turns away and by the time he can react, she's gone.
Judging by so many readers' ideas that something else is happening, however, I have to think that maybe my interpretation is an oversimplification and that some greater mystery is afoot. Well, that and the fact that DG said the mystery won't be revealed until the last book so apparently there's still a mystery left to reveal :)
Barbara wrote: "I must be missing something. When I thought about it after finishing the first book I just assumed that as Claire had traveled back through time and had spent some portion of her life sharing a great love with Jamie, that after he died, Jamie came to the place where Claire was before she traveled back to him just to check on her (and knowing Jamie, to make sure she was well on her way).It's similar to the scene from Somewhere in Time - "
"
I have seen the movie Somewhere in Time, and liked it a lot. But even in Somewhere in Time, he wasn't a ghost, he actually time traveled to that time by the using the old coins as a trigger to time traveling.
I've just read a passage in Drums of Autumn, where (view spoiler)
I'm looking forward to DG book on Master Raymond as I think it might answer a lot of questions about this.
Mary wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I must be missing something. When I thought about it after finishing the first book I just assumed that as Claire had traveled back through time and had spent some portion of her li..."
I do tend to forget that Jamie can do these things as most of the time traveling action is focused on Claire, Bree and Roger's abilities, coupled with the fact that it's been so long since I've read the earlier books that I've forgotten half of everything that happened.
I'm also looking forward to Master Raymond's book. I thought he was one of the most interesting characters in the books so far. I was poking around and found this link from 2010 that contains (at least what was then) the beginning of Master Raymond's story: http://outlandishobservations.blogspo...
I do tend to forget that Jamie can do these things as most of the time traveling action is focused on Claire, Bree and Roger's abilities, coupled with the fact that it's been so long since I've read the earlier books that I've forgotten half of everything that happened.
I'm also looking forward to Master Raymond's book. I thought he was one of the most interesting characters in the books so far. I was poking around and found this link from 2010 that contains (at least what was then) the beginning of Master Raymond's story: http://outlandishobservations.blogspo...
Barbara wrote: "Mary wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I must be missing something. When I thought about it after finishing the first book I just assumed that as Claire had traveled back through time and had spent some port..."Interesting post. I was just re-reading Drums in Autumn, and got to the part where the old Indian woman (a shaman) comes to see Claire. She tells Claire that she had seen Claire in a dream before Jamie and Claire were found by the Tuscarora hunting party. The old shaman woman tells Clarie that in the dream Claire led her to a place. When the old woman went there she found a large blue sapphire stone and using that stone had helped her heal people of their tribe. She also tells Claire she will not come into her full powers until she is old with white hair.
I found this interesting as blue is the color of Master Raymond's hands when he heals Claire after she looses the baby, and also the color of the healers hands which heals Buck. Rogers hands also glow blue. Geillus told Claire of the power of gem stones as well, so this blue sapphire is really interesting. I'm starting to notice on my re-read that all of these little incidents may be connected. Diana really writes a mystery within a mystery, so many little sub-plot stories that may appear on a first read as nothing or unconnected. Then when you read it again, you start noticing things. She's a true master of fiction.
I also think as Diana current lives in the Southwest, the idea of a Shaman ( or a person(s) who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.) would make sense in terms supernatural aspects of the book, whether it be Claire's healing powers, or Jamie's spirit traveling to see Claire and Bree.
If you go to her website blog she has other things posted as well about her Master Raymond books.
Brizo wrote: "Mary wrote: "This passage make me wonder if Jamie has the ability to do Astral Projection."I took a course in college on parapsychology and we covered Astral Projection. It is a very interesting ..."
I think Astral Projection (AP) could be a way of explaining the ghost of Jamie as well. All the spiritual travel in the books appears to happen in dream states, and isn't that what AP does as well?
Here is another snip I just found from DG on Master Raymond.. but it was written a long time ago so don't take this as fact that it means anything.http://forums.compuserve.com/discussi...
She's a scientist by profession, and I've read a lot of the new string theories and I can see this passage fitting in very well with them.
Barbara wrote: "gertt wrote: "I'm afraid we aren't going to know the mystery of the ghost until the very end."I must be missing something about the whole ghost thing.
When I thought about it after finishing the..."
I'm now listening to ABOSAA. (SPOILER!) After Claire comes out of her horrid illness, Jamie tells her that he dreams of things he's never seen-specifically, what electric light looks like. He tells her he was watching her, and realized that the light around her at the time must have been electric. This is presented to be him-his "ghost"-watching her brush her hair.
Cheryl wrote: "Barbara wrote: "gertt wrote: "I'm afraid we aren't going to know the mystery of the ghost until the very end."I must be missing something about the whole ghost thing.
When I thought about it aft..."
Very interesting.. putting all these pieces together is fun..
Astral projection, across time? The difference between that and being a ghost is that Jamie is aware of it while living? Yes-it is fun!
Cheryl wrote: "Astral projection, across time? The difference between that and being a ghost is that Jamie is aware of it while living? Yes-it is fun!"I think across time just means you can view time as a dimension of your life, so if you have an out of body experience that allows you to travel with your mind not your body to another place and/or time. Your body stays where it is. Once you get to that place one can mentally see things there, interact with them and remember them. Much like Jamie seeing Bree and knowing she had that birthmark behind her ear where he kissed her. Dream state, astral projection, parallel universes, ghost they may all just be the way people describe the same occurrence.
This wikipedia link on Astral Projection describes it pretty well. It does mention it's similar to the concept of the soul traveling..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_p...
I don't think any of us know what a ghost really is anyway? Is it something in a crossing over from a parallel universe? Is that what death is? All deep questions..
Carren wrote: "Jamie's comment about enduring 200 years of purgatory is said right before he sends Claire back to the future, before Culloden.If memory serves (and that's suspect)Claire did say she wouldn't go b..."
MOBY SPOILER
(view spoiler)
It was the audiobooks that had abridged versions. The ebooks have never been abridged.
No it was never "presented" to be the same scene as the ghost in Outlander. Diana has said that it's not the same scene.
I agree with your post Gerrt. I always thought Jamie would haunt her until they could be together. That's what Halloween and sowen (spelling?) is all about, when the spirits can roam free and that's when Jamie's ghost appeared and watched her in the window. He probably did that for years methinks.
Samhain. And I though Danish was confusing with all the consonants you don't pronounce. Gaelic is even more confusing.
And I also agree with Gertt. Maybe... surely Herself will surprise us.
And I also agree with Gertt. Maybe... surely Herself will surprise us.
Samhain and sowen are one in the same but Samhain is the proper spelling for sowen. Sowen is how you pronounce Samhain and people adapted to spelling it sowen. If I understand it correctly. Who knows with Gaelic lol.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "I agree with your post Gerrt. I always thought Jamie would haunt her until they could be together. That's what Halloween and sowen (spelling?) is all about, when the spirits can roam free and that'..."Even Frank said he always felt that Jamie was watching him or something like that. He couldn't shake the feeling.
Yea he did! Was that in dragon fly?
Vanessa Eden wrote: "Yea he did! Was that in dragon fly?"I think it's in FC - in the letter Frank wrote to the Reverend.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "I agree with your post Gerrt. I always thought Jamie would haunt her until they could be together. That's what Halloween and sowen (spelling?) is all about, when the spirits can roam free and that'..."Except it wasnt Samhain/Halloween in the book (that was a change made for the TV series. In the book it was Beltane
What's beltain or whoever it's spelled? Is it like Halloween/sowen?
Beltane is the "Gaelic May Day". April 30 - May 1. Where as Samhain is the Autumn festival celebrated Oct 31 - Nov 1.
I see . So does beltain ( spelling) have a significance to souls wandering the earth? It's been a few years sense I read outlander.
Depending on the source, yes, Beltane does hold the same belief that the boundries between the human and the spirit world were thinned or erased all together. The holidays are celebrated as the welcoming of spring/summer, fall/winter.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...
More spirits & fairies I thought rather than souls of the dead, but only going by bits & pieces i have googled.This is from Wiki, so not guaranteeing its correct :)
Beltane was one of four Gaelic seasonal festivals: Samhain (~1 November), Imbolc (~1 February), Beltane (~1 May) and Lughnasadh (~1 August). Beltane marked the beginning of the pastoral summer season, when livestock were driven out to the summer pastures.[5][6] Rituals were held at that time to protect them from harm, both natural and supernatural, and this mainly involved the "symbolic use of fire".[5] There were also rituals to protect crops, dairy products and people, and to encourage growth. The aos sí (often described as "the spirits" or "the fairies") were thought to be especially active at Beltane (as at Samhain)[5] and the goal of many Beltane rituals was to protect humans from these beings, as well as from human witches who may try to cause harm. Beltaine was a "spring time festival of optimism" during which "fertility ritual again was important, perhaps connecting with the waxing power of the sun".[2]
Maybe Jamie is a fairy and doesn't know it lol.
I found something when re-reading(or listening) to Drums of Autumn. Jamie was talking about the an Indian term for someone who is 1/2 a ghost, one who should of died (much like Jamie who should of died at Culloden) but didn't. They had one foot on earth, and one foot in the spirit world. A seer who can talk to the spirits and the little people (much like the fairies that live inside the rocks) they live both worlds. This might be a clue to the "ghost" as well. I know DG is big on the indian connection to the mystical aspects of the story. In Fiery Cross she goes into more details about the shaman aspect of the old indian woman and Master Raymond as well. The old indian woman tells Ian to bring Ottertooth's journals to Claire as they belong to her family. Even though the journals are writen in Latin and neither the old indian nor Claire can read them. So Jamie has to translate the journals. Just a thought.
Thanks Zoey. I read that too. I think Jamie must be part fae too! How else could he have "9"lives and be unnaturally sexy!!
Great reference Brizo! Explains a lot. I wonder though if Jamie is half ghost because he survived Culloden, or he survived Culloden because he is enchanted.... ;0)
Ladyhawk wrote: " Great reference Brizo! Explains a lot. I wonder though if Jamie is half ghost because he survived Culloden, or he survived Culloden because he is enchanted. "That is an interesting quote and and interesting thought. I think Jamie might be enchanted as well. There is something mystical about him. So many times he should of died and did not. Perhaps it is Jamie who is immortal, just at this point in the history he is unaware of his mortality? That could be one reason why Claire and him have this special connection. Perhaps as a time traveler, she's met him before in some later point in time. Perhaps in the future. That could be one way for DG to bring Jamie into the future with Claire. Hum, could be interesting...
Mary wrote: "Ladyhawk wrote: " Great reference Brizo! Explains a lot. I wonder though if Jamie is half ghost because he survived Culloden, or he survived Culloden because he is enchanted. "That is an intere..."
I don't remember what book - but a reference was made that Jaime had 9 lives like a cat - the reference was made when Jaime recalled the number of times he should have died and lived. In the scene I believe he had used 5 of the lives.
Mary, I like your thoughts and their implications. While I know DG makes every effort to assure us her characters are mortal, there is that underlying theme of mysticism. What kind of mortal time travels? A very special one obviously. And therefore the possibles for continued exceptional experiences throughout time is there. I love the thought of two souls spanning centuries to find each other again. Bram Stokers Dracula embraced that story line and it was awesome!
Donna, I remember that reference. Not out of the realm of possibility for Jamie!
Ladyhawk wrote: "I love the thought of two souls spanning centuries to find each other again. Bram Stokers Dracula embraced that story line and it was awesome!"There has been other books about immortal souls finding each other again. I think that's a great idea too. However, do immortals get old? Or do they have the ability to change into different bodies, so it's just the soul that continues on.
Yeah, I would imagine it would be pretty sucky to be forever the age you died at.
Interesting question? Who are Franks ancestors? Alex and Mary, but were any of them related to Master Raymond or any time travelers? I can't remember if we know anything about Mary's past.. perhaps he get's that ability through her?