Outlander Series discussion
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Is this a clue to the ghost?
I always thought of the ghost with that part too.I love Jamie.
I dont know.. But what I do know is you managed to make me cry this fine morn... Damn!!! How I love that man.
Diana says who the ghost is on her website faq. The direct link: http://dianagabaldon.com/faq/faq_char...
I thought the same thing when I read it!
The ghost is Jamie. But what I want to know is where he came from. In other words if Jamie is dead and his ghost is visiting Claire in the present. Does that mean she is not dead in the past?
I think he mentions (Jamie) in The fiery Cross that he had a dream about claire and he saw the electric lights...so i think she is going to fit that back in somehow
I have known that the ghost is Jamie but my thought as to the clue is the line, "Claire - I swear by my hope of heaven, I will not be parted from you." If he never wants to part from her even in death then what to you get? To me that would be a ghost.
I agree Beth.. I think there was many little hints that will be explained at the end of the series.. There souls are even connected.. forever after death.. there has been a few mentions throughout the series that this is what Jamie believes will be the case.
Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "I think he mentions (Jamie) in The fiery Cross that he had a dream about claire and he saw the electric lights...so i think she is going to fit that back in somehow"Dee is right. It was in FC when Jamie told Claire that he "had vision" of her in the strange light sitting by the looking glass and brushing her hair.
My friend and I had an argument about that.. Cause thats what I was wondering too.. but because of the storm, she was preparing for a romantic evening with Frank.. and didnt want the mood killed by the power, inevetibly going out, so she turned the lights off and lit candles.. so Jamie wouldn't have seen her by 'strange' light.. not then.. it would have been candle light..
Wan wrote: "Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "I think he mentions (Jamie) in The fiery Cross that he had a dream about claire and he saw the electric lights...so i think she is going to fit that back in s..."Sorry, but this one is from ABOSAA, page 868 (chapter 68). And Jamie is talking about another dream and Claire was "sitting at a desk, with something in your hand, maybe writing". When Frank saw the ghost, Claire was brushing her hair at candle light. Do you think that Jaimie's "dreams" are based on what he can see when being a ghost? Can't thinks so, because when he tells Claire about his dreams of his grandchildren he def. is there with her and no ghost at all, double identity? Or has a ghost got an identity? We should know DG's concept of ghost not just of time travelling!
You probably right. It was in the later book but I know it wasn't candle light. Jamie said that it was strange sort of lights that he have never seen before. And yes, I don't think it was ghost either, I think Jamie has visions. Just like Mandy does.
It's not surprising at all, because Jenny does too.
duh...I should have known that...I know I listened to it not long agoLotte wrote: "Wan wrote: "Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "I think he mentions (Jamie) in The fiery Cross that he had a dream about claire and he saw the electric lights...so i think she is going to fit th..."
Wan wrote: "You probably right. It was in the later book but I know it wasn't candle light. Jamie said that it was strange sort of lights that he have never seen before. And yes, I don't think it was ghost..."
Sorry, my previous comment must have been a bit confusing. That's when you do not want to elaborate and and try to answer to 3 opinions in one message - leads you to have to write 2:
Wan, of course you are right, this is all about Jamie dreaming of electric light, though he has never seen it before. I'm quoting: " !I dinna recall, exactly. ... But I knew it was then, by the light. ... And there was light all round ye, shining on your face, on your hair. But it wasna candlelight, nor yet firelight or sunlight. And I recall thinking to myself as I saw ye, Oh so that's what electric light is like." (ABOSAA, page 858)
My reference to candle light was meant as an answer to Shell's comment about the romantic evening with Frank - after he had seen the ghost - and yours about the hair brushing. It seemes that there was a bit of confounding 2 different scenes.
Your last sentence either gives me the creeps or is of big promise for future story lines: Mandy's heritage of both her grandparents, time travelling from her granny and having visions from her grandpa. What will become of her?
Yep! Mandy is a special girl!This has always been bugging me -- so why do you think that Frank can see Jamie and Jamie can't see him? So...for Frank to be able to see him .. Jamie has to be there, right? I don't remember if this point were discussed previously. -- May be I need to read more of the time space continuum to understand how this thing works.
Thats what I want too! They both wanted to duke it out for her love!I bet he couldn't help thinking about how that ghost looked an awful lot like his daughter.
Moni wrote: "I think perhaps it is two different times that Jamie sees Claire in the future. In Outlander, she doesn't have the lights on in her room, but...she has alot of candles glowing, remember she lit..."
How awesome would that be? I always knew that Frank believed her, he just never wanted to say it to her.
I would really like to see Jamie and Frank meeting but I'm not sure how DG could make that happen. It would be really interesting to see Frank's reaction to meeting the man that owned Claire's heart, who had, in a sense taken her from him. And would he understand once he saw what their relationship was, how RIGHT they are for each other? Also, what would be Jamie's opinion of Frank, would he be able to get past jealousy and not attack Frank? Would he see why Claire used to love him? I can only think of one way-if Jamie had a near death experience or something and talked with Frank, who is 'other'. After all if Frank-The Ghost and Jamie-The Ghost exist, than this could happen, right? Your thoughts?
I would be so sad for Frank although I never really liked him. I think he was a good father to Bree! A Shit husband to Claire after her return but can I blame him her heart never returned although she did.I think it would be interesting and I would like to read it.
The Ghost is Jamie but When we see him Claire has not gone back yet so Frank does not know anything about Jamie..... I'm no good a time travel. Someone else should have a much more clear thought then I.
:)
Kelly wrote: "I would be so sad for Frank although I never really liked him. I think he was a good father to Bree! A Shit husband to Claire after her return but can I blame him her heart never returned althoug..."Yes, that's it. I think he was more than fair with Claire and truly loved Brianna. As Claire told him (when she recalls their final confrontation in Voyager) she would immediately have divorced him - had he asked. In DOA, being jealous because of the visiting LJG, she remembers her jealousy because of Frank's mistresses, though.
Frank "meets" the ghost at the very beginning of Outlander, at this point nobody knows anything about Jamie: Claire still is firmly anchored in 1945 and the readers do not yet know what lies ahead - neither does Frank. After having read many more hundreds of pages, we might have suspected the ghost to have been Jamie and DG confirmed so in Outlandish Companion.
Interesting concept. I always got the impression that Frank was never Loyal to Claire. They were separated by the war right after they married. I think I remember it being 8 years of separation. (I could be wrong, somehow I got 8 years stuck in my head) When they were on their "Second Honeymoon" Frank had made a comment to Claire that if she ever cheated it was OK" which she was offended. I never got the impression that Clair and Frank had much in common.(at least not after they had both seen war.We don't know how much Frank new about Jamie & Clair, but in my crazy little mind I think he knew a lot more then we all think. I might be wrong, but I think those miniatures that Frank showed to his class was Clair & Jamie. It also makes me wonder if Frank found Claire & Jamie in his research before we know. We do know that he he found Jack Randall before Claire went through the stones. I don't know if Frank knew it was him that couldn't sire a child or not. I do think he wanted very badly to be a father. Which Jamie enabled him to do. I think Frank was a really good dad. A meeting between Frank and Jamie would be very interesting. I wouldn't mind reading about that at all. Mimi I, think you have an interesting scenario.
Fawn wrote..."I might be wrong, but I think those miniatures that Frank showed to his class was Clair & Jamie."...Just listened to that part in DIA and then had to go look it up in the book b/c I had missed it on my first 2 reads! It is fascinating! DIA ch10 pg 150 Claire dreamed of Frank (after meeting Alex Randall at Versaille). Frank was teaching a class at London University and had borrowed a few "objects of vertu" from the British Museum that included miniatures. One of Jamie and one of Claire. Frank knew it looked just like Claire. These have to be the ones Bree painted! I had wondered if any of Bree's painting survived. I CAN NOT WAIT to know what all Frank found out after Claire returned!!!
Thanks for posting that Leah. I didn't remember that that was a dream of Claire's. You are right it is fascinating!
It's amazing that every time I read the Outlander books I find entirely new things which I didn't notice before, like the miniatures. I always thought that the fact they looked like J&C was a product of Claire's mind. Like-he really did show miniatures but they didn't look like them, but in Claire's dream the scene changed from what really happened.
This is an excellent topic I love reading everyones opinions on this. It's so amazing how DG's writing is so detailed and the characters are intertwined. I miss reading this series, I felt like the characters became family members I was reading about.
I do believe that Frank knew all about Jamie and Claire because that was his profession.
I agree Lynn, this topic has my mind working overtime!
WOW Fawn you could have a point there about maybe Frank finding out about Jamie and Claire b4 she even went thru the stones. I never thought of that. And yes it would be very interesting if it were possible for Frank and Jamie to meet. I would love to read about that for sure. And yes for Frank to ask Claire if she had been unfaithful to him all those years they were apart or separated by the war suggests to me that he himself may not have been faithful to her but ofcourse he was not going to admit to that. I would not be at all surprised considering he seems to have cheated on her when she returned from the stones pregnant with Jamie's baby.
I think that possibly the second time Jamie saw Claire...when he was talking about the strange light...it could have been when she was getting ready to come back to him and was writing Bree the farewell letter.
I don't think Frank knew about Jamie and Claire before she came through the first time. If so he wouldn't have gotten so angry at her when she came back and tried to tell him about her time travel.I do definitely think he believed her in the end though, that he prepped Bree for when she'd eventually possibly go back too. I think he looked for proof after Claire came back and tme went on.
Sharonh wrote: "I think that possibly the second time Jamie saw Claire...when he was talking about the strange light...it could have been when she was getting ready to come back to him and was writing Bree the far..."Hi Sharon, when read that part when Jamie said he saw Claire in a dream with light all around and something in her hand, the first thing that came to my mind was the night Frank saw Jamie's 'ghost' and Jamie was watching her from outside her window. That ofcourse was before she went thru the stones and I am not sure when Jamie dreamed this. That was wierd.
Quick QuestionDoes Claire (especially when Jamie tells her about his dream) ever recall Frank's encounter with Jamie's ghost? Jamie's dream is pretty darn close to the scene in the first book, so you would think it would jog her memory and make her go "hmmmmm". :)
If yes then I have no recollection of it happening (no surprise, I have a terrible memory).
Thanks!
Ali.nicole85 wrote: "Quick QuestionDoes Claire (especially when Jamie tells her about his dream) ever recall Frank's encounter with Jamie's ghost? Jamie's dream is pretty darn close to the scene in the first book, s..." Hi Ali.nicole, No in no part of the books have I read about Claire telling Jamie about Frank's encounter with Jamie's ghost before she went thru the stones. And i always wondered if Claire herself ever suspected that after meeting Jamie. I thought for sure when Jamie told her about that dream she would say something like 'oh that reminds me Frank saw a 'ghost' once and the way he described him sounds like you'...or something along those lines. Great question.
Jamie's dream was not the scene in Outlander. When Jamie dreamed of Claire she was sitting at a desk and there was artificial light around her, like lamps and such. When the Ghost was looking at Claire she was in candlelight brushing her hair and cursing at it's static.I agree with the person who said that it may have been when Claire was writing her goodbye letter to Bree in Voyager. But, I also tend to think that it has something to do with the future and that's why Jamie thinks she'll go back eventually and that explains why Jamie's ghost is searching for her.
Wendy:If Jamie's ghost goes searching for Claire and he finds her in the "future" beause she's gone back, that means that Jamie has died first. That would be a bummer wouldn't it?
I don't want to think about reading that scene, too sad.
Well, DG said the issue of Jamie's ghost will be answered in the last book.
I think it will be VERY hard to read, but why else would she be having Jamie say that he thinks she goes back to the future to be with Bree?
Wendy F wrote: "I think it will be VERY hard to read, but why else would she be having Jamie say that he thinks she goes back to the future to be with Bree?" Hi Wendy, The way I see it I don't think that Claire would leave even if or when Jamie dies because she has told him that before that she would not leave again and even when she thinks he died in EINB she does not even consider it. To me, I think when Jamie had that dream of Claire it could've been when she was writing the letter to Bree before she returned to him and he dreamed it just like he dreams of his grandchildren. I don't think it's anything that is going to happen. I think he just has dreams as they are happening or about to happen. But that is just my opinion and how I see it. I don't believe Claire will ever go back to the future whether Jamie is alive or not because she has said she thinks if she does ever go back she might die while trying to get there because each time it is worse and she does not want to go thru that again.
I know she said that, and you could be right. But the truth is you're not sure what would happen at that point. Maybe Claire is all alone, maybe she tries to stay in the past but realizes that she'd rather risk dying to get to Bree and the grandkids instead of staying and dying alone without Jamie in the past. Plus, Jamie tends to dream present or future. And I just felt something ominous that got my spidey-senses tinging when Jamie insisted on keeping something because his dream made him feel like eventually Claire would go back.I'm hate the idea of Jamie dying first, or Claire for that matter. I want them to die in their sleep, wrapped in each others arms. It's just the thought I had when I read that dream that Jamie had.
I don't think Jamie's visions and the Outlander ghost of Jamie have anything in common. There is no apparition of Jamie at the place he is "seeing" in the future or Jem would have seen him. I have a feeling that Jamie's ghost appearing in 1945 means that he died and Claire has not died in the past or they would be together "resting in peace". Right? So Claire must come back to the future. I thought I read Jamie say something in DIA about he may have to wait 200 years to be with Claire in the afterlife. I tried to find it, but I couldn't. Oh, that would be heartbreaking! I prefer to find them settled after the war surrounded by friends and family and PEACE and QUIET and then just fade to black. That way they can stay that way in my mind forever. OR if not, I like Wendy's idea of them dying in their sleep wrapped in each others arms! AND yes, Wendy, just b/c Claire said she wasn't going back to the future doesn't mean she won't. Anything could happen.
Wendy F wrote: "I know she said that, and you could be right. But the truth is you're not sure what would happen at that point. Maybe Claire is all alone, maybe she tries to stay in the past but realizes that sh..." Hi Wendy, Yes I see your point. I'd like to think they would die in each other's arms too instead of seeing who dies first .etc
Beth wrote: "I was reading Drums of Autumn and came across this quote. Let me know what you think.----
"And when my body shall cease, my soul will still be yours. Claire - I swear by my hope of heaven, I w..." Beth, thanks for sharing that. That's really beautiful. See that is why I have to re read the books. I forget stuff like that sometimes. lol
Jamie's comment about enduring 200 years of purgatory is said right before he sends Claire back to the future, before Culloden.If memory serves (and that's suspect)Claire did say she wouldn't go back, but then that was when Bree and Roger were still with them. Now that they've gone back, anything can happen. Years ago I read a book to my kids called "The Never Ending Story", I wish this series would be like that.
I've never read The Never Ending Story, but I want to. It was good? I loved the movie, lol. It's a favorite of mine from my childhood.
I read it to my kids when they were little. They loved it. Funny, though, they didn't like the movie as much as the book. They had (still do) great imaginations, so they already had an idea of what the book was like and when the movie came out they were a little disappointed.See what the written word can do for kids? Adults as well.
I loved the movies as a kid, but never even thought they were based on books. Now I have something else I need to add to my "must read" list. Thanks!
movies can never compare with the book, IMO. But that makes me glad I saw the movie first, because reading the book can only add to it, not detract.
----
"And when my body shall cease, my soul will still be yours. Claire - I swear by my hope of heaven, I will not be parted from you."
The wind stirred the leaves of the chestnut trees nearby, and the scents of late summer rose up rich around us; pine and grass and strawberries, sunwarmed stone and cool water, and the sharp, musky smell of his body next to mine.
"Nothing is lost, Sassenach; only changed."
Page 315
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Just a thought that brought to mind the ghost at the beginning to me.
Beth