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Mockingjay ***SPOILERS*** enter at your own risk!
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by
Jaimie
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Aug 25, 2010 09:59AM
for those who have already read the book and want to discuss it!
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Alright so I did enjoy this book however I do have problems with lots of it. I am going to start with the epilogue because it was the most disturbing to me - and not because I was team Gale. So my feeling through the whole book was that Collins was trying to show that Katniss was broken and NOT the same girl we all loved in the first two books and the changes in her were because of the Games and how horrible they were. Peeta was not the same dude we all thought was sweet and loving either. They both had some serious Post-Traumatic-Stress Disorder going on between bouts of murderous rage and catatonic lapses they are total unstable messes. And at the end it's as if everyone who used and depended on them threw them away like trash and they just kind of ended up together. Depressing but kind of fitting actually. Now my problem with the epilogue is that these two totally screwed up people with MAJOR mental issues have kids?!! Holy child endangerment! I know a lot of you thought that was a "happy" ending but to me it was like Collins didn't want a happy ending but felt pressured to so she slapped that on and it made me super sketched out.
I think it was fine that Peeta and Katniss had children. Just because they had major mental problems after the games doesn't mean that 15 years down the line they still have the same mental problems. I think Collins was trying to show that they would go on and that the next generation won't have to deal with the same things Peeta and Katniss did.
I agree with Tracy. If they'd had kids in a year or two that might have been an issue. But 15 years is a long time to wait. Katniss would have been in her 30s by that point.I think the point of the epilogue was to show us that society had improved some and the Hunger Games had ended so Katniss could have kids. After everything with President Coin (awesome FYI) it felt like it may just descend into choas and continue the Hunger Games.
I'm with you Jaime. Those kind of problems don't just go away or get grown out of. The slightest thing could set Peeta off again and having him kill Katniss. One bad day could have her catatonic for the rest of her life cause she just can't pull herself together. The person portrayed in Mockingjay was broken beyond fixing. Both of them. If you've ever met any families that deal with war syndromes similar to what Katniss and Peeta came away with, you'd know you don't bring kids into it, ever.
And I moved my spoilers over here to keep that thread somewhat un-spoiled.And this is going to be a hugely long post:
No, I didn't feel like the end was necessarily happy. The fact that all three of the characters most people were concerned with lived was a little "happily ever after" in my book, but I'm glad they did.
My biggest disappointment was Katniss herself. It felt like she lost all her strengths in this book. I didn't see the girl who captured the imagination of so many readers (and the nation of Panem). I think we got a hint of what she was going to be like when she freaked out in Catching Fire, but honestly, what I saw in this book was a psychotic, broken version of Katniss that started with the first chapter. It was confusing, frustrating, and ugly. That is not the type of protag I want to read about. Sure it's a war and lots of ugly things happen in war, but its also a book and needs to hold entertainment value for its readers.
The resolution to the love triangle debate was a hard one for me to swallow, not because I was a Gale fan (which I wasn't really after he lost some of his humanity), but because there was no real resolution between Peeta and Katniss with the problems Collins created for them in this and previous books to make me believe they actually would end up together and happy about it. It just felt like because no one else was around, they decided to get down to business. Where's the romance? Where's the love we wanted Katniss to admit too so many times before? Really, it felt like Gale made the decision for them rather than Katniss. It kinda pissed me off a bit. Even with the line about "why she chose Peeta" it didn't feel complete. With the amount of romance or fake romance that was evident in the first two books, I was surprised at how little love was shown at the end.
The other complaint I had was the new characters. They didn't feel real. None of them did. They were all kind of one-dimensional. I even forgot who quite a few of them were and had to go back and review.
I thought the end of the revolution with Prim and pres Coin was brilliant, I thought Snow got what he deserved, but Katniss was a downright disappointment. Anyway, those are just a few of my thoughts. I'm disappointed, but I'm glad the waiting is over.
*goes to get her spoilers*
I think what makes it seem like their problems are not resolved is the fact that a very long time is covered in a very few pages at the very end. I feel like the biggest problem they had was that Katniss didn't know what she felt. Peeta knew, he always knew. Katniss could not sort out what was real and what wasn't. Throughout the book I saw little signs that Katniss realized that she really cared about Peeta, not fake-cared or district-12 cared, but cared about him as a person. I think for her a turning point is when she thinks Peeta hates her and she realizes that she wants his love and admiration.
From there I think its a slow and quiet realization that really cluminates during the war when he wants them to kill him so he won't hurt her. As Peeta wakes up from being hijacked Katniss wakes up in her own way. I can't get the image of Peeta handcuffed to the stairs whispering to Gale out of my head. At that point Katniss knows she loves them both. And wasn't that always the problem - Katniss knowing?
One more thought: I'm starting to like Mockingjay more because of what you said Jaimie. It makes a lot more sense that Collins wanted to portray Katniss as broken, used up and thrown out. It is completely fitting that the two people who brought on the new society cannot be accepted by it because of what it did to them to get it that far. It is incredibly sad, but true to real life in a huge way.
And on the topic of children, I really believe that the human spirit can overcome A LOT of things. Over time you learn to live with the past. I'm glad that TIME was a huge factor in their recovery/relationship/family.I don't think Peeta is ready to snap at any moment. If someone can be programmed they can be reprogrammed and he had a lot more time with Katniss than he did being tortured in the capital. I think when he snapped that once and the guy ended up dying his threat was done. Even in the Hunger Games Peeta never struck me much as a killer...he was always just a protector. (I think there is a big difference there)
Becca wrote: "One more thought: I'm starting to like Mockingjay more because of what you said Jaimie. It makes a lot more sense that Collins wanted to portray Katniss as broken, used up and thrown out. It is com..."Ijust feel that the contrast between Katniss in both of the other books and Mockingjay had to be purposeful. Even the fact that she doesn't really develop new characters, I mean it is told from the first person and we only knew what we did about Cinna and others because Katniss was Katniss - now I think her mind is a very confusing place.
Oh and Peeta tried to kill Katniss at least two times and in the last chapter she says that he has to clutch arms of chairs in fits of flashbacks but he comes back eventually. I'm just saying Post-Traumatic-Stress Disorder is a big thing with years of repercussions for soldiers of wars - these two were kids forced to kill other kids in brutal circumstance, twice, and then you add torture and personal trauma (Prim), and top it off with basically abandonment by family and friends (well Haymitch is there but he is a drunk with his own problems) I just don't think their problems are going away. In my head I keep imagining Peeta looking to Katniss when playing with their dark-haired daughter and saying “This is my daughter and I don’t want to choke her out, real or not real”
Gees, what a terrible thought! but it has me laughing because I pictured something so similar. I don't want to picture what their family life is like.I wonder if Collins wanted us to be so unsatisfied with Katniss? Because it didn't have to happen that way. We know Katniss had sterner stuff in her at some point because she was brilliantly resourceful (although selfish for the most part) during both hunger games. Really the book left me utterly sad.
I know but the whole real or not real thing was getting to me after awhile - especially at the end when that is how she finally admits how she feels about Peeta. And he has to ask! I am a terrible person because it is making me laugh right now.
Oh and I think she did want us to be somewhat dissatisfied. I think after all the violence and terrible losses it would be a disservice to neatly tie everything up - I guess that is another reason I could have done with out the epilogue. It just seemed like it was a halfhearted attempt to clean it up. Not that I want them to be miserable but if she wasn't going for dark and twisty then the book didn't make as much sense to me.
I guess the reason I would say it is a "happy" ending is because they just go back home, get married, have babies, and live on. Yes, they have emotional baggage, but so does everyone alive. Gale goes on to his super important job. It just all seems out of place. I really wish Katniss would have been killed off after the assassination, that would have felt more authentic. I realize Katniss was supposed to appear broken as a result of the games, but I felt she was a little too broken for the previous warrior spirit she had. I felt like a real person in that situation would have sucked it up and fought it out, then when the fighting is over go all catatonic. I felt like much of her behavior seemed to be a little out of character for her. I think the "emotional distress" was played up a little too much, like Collins refused to let us have a hero.
There were also loose ends. Katniss voting for the Capitol Hunger Games seemed completely out of character for her, even crazy character. And the fact you get no info on that after the vote feels weird. I also didn't feel I got enough info on Paylor being elected president to really feel what the country would be like after the games.
I guess I figured she voted that way so that Coin would think she had her support and that she wasn't too crazy and/or dangerous to be handed a weapon. It wasn't like Coin was going to get the opportunity to announce the vote with her being dead and all. I did think that Collins could have made that and some other things a bit more clear but I think because Katniss was all fuzzy on the details we were all fuzzy. I was pissed off at Gale for his neglect. And as far as Katniss' ability to overcome well I can't say I agree that I think a real person would overcome the things that were done to her but after the first two books and what I came to know of Katniss it was suprising that she didn't tap into a well of reserves. However I think that shows character development - just not the bright and shiny kind.
I thought the same thing - that she did that just to make it look like she was really resentful toward Snow even though she was suspicious of Coin and pretty pissed that she would even think to continue the Hunger Games. If she acted like she was pissed at Coin then they never would have let Katniss around her with a weapon. And I think Haymitch suspected what she was up to.I can see how Gale would leave. If I were him, I wouldn't be able to look at Katniss without feeling guilty, and if I were Katniss it would be really difficult to look at Gale without harboring resentments.
As far as her and Peeta moving on, I think it was realistic. Like someone else said, it's 15 years that it took for her to let her guard down enough to have kids. Of course they will have the nightmares and flashbacks from time to time, but that is no reason to stand still instead of attempting to move forward. I liked that it had an ending in which Katniss and Peeta were broken, were helping each other to heal, and were attempting to move forward but were doing so without forgetting.
The ending did feel kind of sad, not like Katniss is in any danger of going crazy, but definitely like she's haunted by her memories. Which is would probably how it was supposed to feel. I was so sad about Finick! At least the cat survived though.
I'm in a snarky mood, but really, Collins should have done the reading world a favor and put Katniss out of her misery. Poor girl. I would never want to be her. In the first book I almost could have imagined it, but after the last one, no way no how. And I think that was probably a really brilliant statement by Collins. War sucks and you don't want to be its hero, because that life sucks even worse. Let's be a better society and make sure no one ever ends up like Katniss. That's the message I was getting.
Oh Haymitch knew. I'm positive of that. I reread that passage and it says something aout "see how well he knew me" (don't have book for exact quote at the moment.When Katniss said yes I was shocked. When she killed Coin I understood (though I had to re-read that passage a couple of times because there was so much happening).
I actually liked the ending! I thought that it had a good a finish because it seemed like the ideal ending for Katniss. I was originally Team Gale, too, but then I fell into Peeta's trap (lol) and even though I still wanted Gale to be with Katniss...I think that she had to deal with her descision and much more and that the only one who could help her was Peeta.And the epilouge was so...ok, I understand why not everyone liked it but I think it just shows that people can move on, even after horrible things have been placed on their shoulders.
Yay Alyssa liked the ending too! You make me happy.I have always been in love with Peeta and even when he was hijacked nothing could make me stop loving him.
I think Peeta is the only one who can actually understand what Katniss has been through in life. Gale has never been used or a piece in someones game the way Katniss/Peeta have. Plus Katniss could never get past Prim's death with Gale.
Actually, I was thinking that, too. Gale could never understand what it's been like for Katniss, and since Peeta and her understand each other but both bring different things to their lives...their perfect. And yes, with Gale's distant help in killing Prim and his now un-humane side (from all his murderous feelings)...they'll never quite be happy together. And YAY somebody else liked it too!
Something I don't care for when reading, is when the author spends much time and detail setting the story; but then doesn't spend enough time to tie it up. I just wish Collins had spent even two more pages at the end; of Katniss and Peeta talking and coming close together. I liked Peeta from the beginning, as my hubby is blonde, blue eyed and buff, so I projected:) I didn't really care though, who Katniss wound up with in the end. I agree with Becca that Gale's apparent lapses of humanity were hard to swallow. Even with that, I dislike how he suddenly just fades out.
I did like how she got rid of Coin, who seemed a female version of Snow at times. (Especially with the HG suggestion)
I DISLIKE the fact the Finnick had to die. I wish it could have been that Capital lady instead. At least he was stable and with his love by the end, but still I wanted him to have "peace" too.
I would just like to say that I just spent 20 minutes typing up a novel of a response, and there was an "error saving my comment." I don't have time to retype it all now.. so I'll get back to it later -_-
Becca I feel you on the message - that is what I got from it. I keep going back and forth with it actually. I was so team Gale before but always said that I would be okay with either guy she picked but I don't know if I would have been okay with her choosing Gale at the end of this. I guess more so I don't see how he would have been able to understand her. Well I guess he did understand her enough to know that she would never be able to forgive him for his bomb but he lost a lot of points in my book by cutting his losses with her and taking off. He really made her choice for her. Not that I don't understand that she is no longer the girl he fell in love with but I always thought he was made of stronger stuff.
A friend of mine and I had a bet going as to what would happen: a. She thought either Prim or Finnick would bite it (point for her); b. I thought Katniss would end up alone, with both men dead... (not even close.) Starting out I was not quite sure about how I felt where the story was going. My verdict: Im with Cissi and Alyssa. It could not have ended in any other way.
I've always been Team Peeta and I was scared that with so much Gale exposure I was going to end up liking him in this book.. I was so happy that he was such an ass and therefore I didn't feel compelled to like him :) Petty? yes. but I'm okay with that. I don't remember who, but someone posted in the Hunger Games thread that Gale loves the rebellion more than he loves Katniss, and I think that is portrayed multiple times in this book.. even after everything that happened, Peeta was still protecting her. Swoon.
Traci wrote: "even after everything that happened, Peeta was still protecting her. Swoon. i>Swoon indeed. I know I did. <3 Peeta
Good point Traci. Gale was frequently mad at her for showing compassion... With the discovery of the prep team, the Nut in District 2, planning human traps with Beetee, and so on. He loved the battle.
I'd have wished for a slightly more fleshed out conclusion--I don't buy "Okay, we had your trial, let's go home" without a "Coin's crimes have come to light" or "we've spun it so you're a patriot." That said, I think Katniss's fall from power and being central to the story are realistic developments. Part of coming of age is learning that people, even heroes, rise and fall, and that at some point most of us stop being news and start tending our gardens.
I'm so glad I can finally comment. I wanted there to be 'more' to the conclusion as well, but for now, I'm pretty happy as to how it wrapped up. Give me a couple of days and I might change my mind:-)I am sad that Finnick and Prim had to die, but then again, keeping everyone alive and well would have been completely unrealistic!
I was incredibly disappointed with it, and don't feel as though it fits with the series as a whole. I almost want to forget I read it, or just reread the first 150 pages and fill in the rest myself :SDoubt I'll buy this one, I'm so relieved I got it from the library!
I loved the whole book I didn't think you could get anymore violent but she made it happen in a big way. Katniss had moments of her fiery spark I loved about her in the first two books but after everything that happened to her its no wonder she wasn't 100 percent the same. Peeta was still my favorite and the whole 'real not real' moments that he and Katniss shared were one of my favorite parts even the ending although a little cheesy. I loved the ending and I was for Peeta from the very beginning, so I was glad they ended up together. There was no resolution with Gale however which was disappointing, it was like Katniss was messed up and he stayed away which seemed out of character for him. Maybe it was because he knew that it was his Bomb that caused Prim to die and he knew her so well that she would always look at him that way. BTW, everything started with Katniss trying to save her sister and then Prim dieing anyway in a very horrific way was so freaken sad.
Did you all catch the Bradbury joke (451) and the Le Guin shout out (reference to a Lavinia)? Were there others?
message 36:
by
Brittany (finally graduated and can once again read for fun)
(new)
Okay, so I just finished Mockingjay last night, have read all your comments, and here are some of my thoughts. 1) Loved that Collins had the courage to take us to the places we went. Kuddos to her for an amazing journey.
2) As a Team Gale girl I was actually glad to get to see so much more of him. Sure he's no knight in shining armor, but I never expected him to be and I wasn't disheartened by his wartime antics. It's unfortunate but those things are necessary in war.
3) As soon as Katniss voted "yes" to re-instating the Hunger Games I knew she was going to kill Pres. Coin.
4) (and this is my favorite) I LOVE how toward the end Katniss thinks about Gale, and how 2 kids from District 12 could have taken off into the woods and been happy together. No doubt this would have happened had Katniss not been picked as a tribute. And we get to see what actually happens as a result of her becoming a tribute and the subsequent war. What I love about this comparison is that I really do think that the Katniss we know and love, the girl from District 12 in book 1 actually would have been happier in the first scenario. Taking to the woods with her best friend and living out her days in the woods with Gale having no knowledge of Peet's feelings for her. But we see that's not what happens, and I have no problem with Peeta because he too is amazing. But I love that we see that not only does war change things, but I would bet money that Katniss wouldn't have changed a thing about her life knowing that as a result the Games discontinued and life was made better for future generations. Sometimes you have to be willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. And even though everyone was manipulating Katniss, she was able to do this, and they could rebuild, generations will move on. And sure as Jaimie said there will be some serious PTSD going on for a lot of people, but I think Katniss would say it was worth it in the end. What was best for her personally wasn't what was best for the collective.
5) Love how Collins was able to make Cinna be present in the novel without him actually being present. BRILLIANT in my opinion because I really would have missed him.
Okay enough for now. Need to mull this one over for a while and find a good fluffy book to read next because this one was emotionally draining!
I agree with the need to find a fluffy book to read after this one. It was good, but dark. I'm still thinking about it.
Stacia wrote: "I agree with the need to find a fluffy book to read after this one. It was good, but dark. I'm still thinking about it."Great thoughts Brittany! I'm sad that the trilogy is over though. Now what will I look forward to?:-)
message 39:
by
Brittany (finally graduated and can once again read for fun)
(new)
Yes, I'm sad too. It was a great series. I tend to overanalyze (see above) and I think this one will have me thinking for a whlle. I can't wait for an entire series re-read, but it's so intense I HAVE to take a break! If you want another book to look forward to I would recommend trying the Seven Kingdoms Trilogy (book 3 is due out next year) and Graceling and Fire are both excellent books in my opinion. Also although not YA many of us are fans of the Fever series. The first book is really slow, but stick with it. It gets better.
Brittany wrote: "Yes, I'm sad too. It was a great series. I tend to overanalyze (see above) and I think this one will have me thinking for a whlle. I can't wait for an entire series re-read, but it's so intense ..."I know what you mean about it being intense, I'm still thinking about it. She left several threads hanging at the end, in my opinion. I'm trying to give her credit, considering I couldn't write anything remotely close, but I still have questions that I wish she had answered.
Thanks for the recommendations - I've read both Graceling and Fire. I shall go looking for the Seven Kingdoms trilogy next.
I know there has been talk about Collins doing another series in this same world just not about Katniss - I think if it happens it is going to be about Gale and that is why she left him so ... unfinished? That is not the right word but something like that. I could see him working with the new government and in his new mysterious job and figuring out where he belongs and who he belongs with.
I just want to say wow. I love this group because all the comments help me better analyze my thoughts and get a better understanding of books I read. I liked Mockingjay, but was a little put off by the happily ever after epilogue. After reading a few of the comments I now understand the need for Collins to show that life could go on and now that the Hunger Games are over Katniss can have children without fear of their involvement.
There's a lot more that I understand thanks to comments, but seeing as how I literally finished the book 10 minutes ago-I'm still digesting.
P.S. I so cried when Prim died :(
I'm only upset Katniss didn't end up with Finnick. Oh r.i.p. my ever so charming, green eyed, love. I respect everything S.C. did, it's her story and I still loved it.
I missed Haymitch a little.
Wait I do want to add one thing. I feel that its only fair Katniss and Peeta got to have children. I know they are "broken" but I believe so are alot of other people in Panem. The world keeps turning.
In the beginning Katniss never wanted to have children because she did not want to raise them in a place where they might be forced to murder people they grew up with. She didn't want to see her children starve to death like so many others. Well she fought hard(even if unknowingly), and many people suffered but at least she was able to destroy that change that.
I think they deserved it after everything. I mean in the end she could not save Prim, and that was all she really wanted.
Even in our time, I believe their are people that go to war or expierence intense life altering tragedies who do move on and eventually start again. Even fifteen years down the road.
Sorry for grammer errors and whatever else may offend.
I am team Peeta and yes I should be happy with the ending, but honestly, I am not. I do agree that Katniss in this book was not our favortie protag that we all looked up to.
The characters we loved in the first two books seemed to have changed a lot and others seemed to be other persons, Katniss, Peeta, Finnick and even Haymitch who has stopped drinking. It also saddens me that many of our beloved characters had become mentally unstable and became morphling addicts.
I really wouldn't mind if the book got longer especially towards the end. After I read this I just hunger more of Peeta.
To give some credits to Collins, there are some scenes that really moved me. Like when Katniss saw the drawing Cinna made for her before Cinna died, when Katniss first saw Peeta on the television and again when she saw him with Finnick and saw how much Peeta's weight dropped, knowing none of Peeta's family survived and of course when Prim died.
Can anybody guess where the pearl Peeta gave to Katniss in Catching Fire is? Throughout the book, Katniss have once in a while been looking at it but then towards the end, I think I missed where it could have been?
I think it just blew up with her in the end. :(I actually wrote some dialog between Peeta and Katniss that has her showing him the pearl, before he trys to kill her again, and telling him, "remember who you are," and things like "you said always."
Because the whole freaking book I wanted her to show it to him so bad. But then I remembered this is not me, this is Katniss and she's not that type of person. She kept it because it really meant something to her.. not to show Peeta that she had it.. but still! ARG
:)
Sorry for errors again. Typed this super fast.
Jaimie wrote: "I know there has been talk about Collins doing another series in this same world just not about Katniss - I think if it happens it is going to be about Gale and that is why she left him so ... unfi..."I haven't actually heard about this, where did you find out about the accompanying book? It might be quite interesting to read. Plus, it may answer a whole lot of questions that I still have.
Happy with the book ending but not satisfied enough... I want more of Peeta and Katniss's romance!
I loved how Peeta changed, saw Katniss for who she really was, and still fell in love with her again. Same with Katniss, seeing Peeta in a different light and still loving him. Since the topic of broken people having children has come up-what about Annie having a baby and Finnick not being there! How sad is that! I was happy something of Finnick got to live on, but it just made his death that much harder to take.
Lani wrote: "I loved how Peeta changed, saw Katniss for who she really was, and still fell in love with her again. Same with Katniss, seeing Peeta in a different light and still loving him. Since the topic ..."
That's what I was thinking about as well. How is Annie, who is very unstable, going to take care of a baby all by herself? I don't believe it was ever mentioned that either one of them has any surviving family members.
The fact that Finnick died without ever seeing his son was just awful especially after everything that he's been through. I don't think he even knew that Annie was pregnant.
