The Next Best Book Club discussion
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Top Ten Books to Avoid
Lori wrote: "Lori,I strongly disliked Heart of Darkness as well.
Except I wasnt made to read it in school.... I read it because it was on the Lost Lit List.... and I forced myself to finish all 90+ pages of ..."
Everyone is obviously entitled to his or her opinion, but how can you presume to moderate a discussion about books and not appreciate the perceptive towering genius of Heart of Darkness - perhaps one of the most important books ever written?
Perhaps you should read up on why this book is so good and the profound effect it continues to have on literature, writers and culture.
Given how many writers have been deeply affected and influenced by Heart of Darkness, it is perhaps one of the most influential books in our language. It is iconic.
You don't necessarily have to "like" or "enjoy" a book to be able to appreciate it.
Tom wrote: Everyone is obviously entitled to his or her opinion, but how can you presume to moderate a discussion about books and not appreciate the perceptive towering genius of Heart of Darkness - perhaps one of the most important books ever written? There are many, many books that have influenced the English language and literature, writers and culture.
That doesn't mean we have to like them all.
While I can appreciate that Heart of Darkness is one of those books, because I think it is important and interesting to recognize how earlier cultural works influence and are retold through later literature, films, etc., I am with Lori in that I just don't like this book. I too read it in college in a class on Modernity and Modernism, and while the professor always made discussions of the novel as interesting as she could, the book just was not something that held my attention.
I just want to point out that saying you dislike a book does not mean you can't appreciate critical discussions of it, nor does it mean you don't recognize that it has had an effect on literature culture as we know it today.
Now I really need to read Heart of Darkness. There has always been so much controversy over it, both from personal points of view as well as critical theory discussions, and I haven't bumped it up on my list yet. Maybe this weekend when I'm at the library.
1. Twilight - I thought it was poorly written, the character development was atrocious and the plot points were lagging. My problem with this book might stem from the fact that I loved the HP books and everybody was saying that Twilight was the new HP. I jumped on that bandwagon pretty quick and was so disappointed. I don't like any book where two people fall in love for NO apparent reason (seriously there was no development, they were in love by page 2)and I've never read a book where the heroin was so blantantly unlikeable. I couldn't get through Twilight. I stop about a third of the way in. However, I saw the movie and I understand that the second book features Jacob more. I think I would probably like that alot more.
2. I also hated anything I was forced to read in highschool or college. I think this made me write off alot of good books like Les Miserables, The Scarlet Letter and A Tale of Two Cities. I should probably re-read those now.
Micah wrote: "R U INSANE????No one thinks that bella and edwards relationship is normal and healthy, but it is romantic that edward would give anything to be with bella and bella would do the same. I know somewhere in that dormant heart of yours you wish for someone who would be as willing to give their life if you died as they are for each other."
I don't know what world you inhabit, but I have plenty of people in my life who would die for me, and none of them feel the urge to climb in my window at night to watch me sleep or disable my vehicle to keep me from going anywhere they disapprove of. That's not normal behavior. If Edward wasn't pretty sparkly Edward, any girl with any measure of self worth would put a restraining order on his ass.
I totally agree! Bella's character was rather pathetic to me. She had no stregth and even when Meyer tried to give it to her it lacked any true umph. It was just sad. And the love story at first, to me, seemed okay but quickly went down hill with his obsessive nature and became just sickly when she thought that was sweet and good of him. Ugh. And then in the second book when she has an actual nice guy (Jacob) who is there for her in all ways possible she throws that off because he's not an obsessive freak like Edward. What is this world coming to!Once I read Hunger Games and Graceling (two stories with immensely strong female characters) Bella and the whole Twilight saga just becomes rather... pathetic.
Mod
You have got to be kidding me? How can you sit there and question my ability to moderate a group based on books that I like or dislike? If I am honest with you, all I said was that it was very very painful to read. I never denounced it, threatened to burn it or steer others away from reading. I was merely sharing my opinion of it, and experience with it.
Moderating a group has NOTHING to do with liking or disliking books, and EVERYTHING to do with allowing people to feel free to express that like and dislike in a friendly, non-threatening enviornment.
Who are you to question whether I grasp its iconic-ness? Who are you to attempt to put me in my place based on my extreme dislike of ANYTHING?
Toe the line Tom. I wouldn't attack the moderator of the group to which you are a member.
I find Heart of Darkness overrated (I'm not a big fan of Conrad generally).On the other hand, folks here sometimes don't like books I love; it doesn't make me attack or insult them.
Mod
It really is a shame that some people find it hard to control themselves in the same manner.
Lori wrote: "Tom wrote:Everyone is obviously entitled to his or her opinion, but how can you presume to moderate a discussion about books and not appreciate the perceptive towering genius of Heart of Darkness -..."You said you disliked it. Not that it was painful. It was extremely painful. That was the point of it.
Heart of Darkness is one of the best books in our literature. If you poll authors writing during the last century, I bet an overwhelming percentage will cite it as influential.
I was responding to your blithely dismissing one of the most important books in our language. That's why I'm questioning you.
I'm respectful of books. I would hope that you would share my respect for them.
Tom, man :P Lori is very respectful of everyone's opinions, that is why she feels like she should have the right to express hers as well.She didn't say "NO ONE READ THIS EVER! UGH! WORST BOOK EVER WRITTEN!"
She said SHE did not like it...not really your job to police Lori's reading preferences.
Emilee wrote: "Did not like I Robot."Susanna wrote: "What about it did you not like, Emilee?"
I am also curious as to why you did not like it. I ask because I have read Issac Asimov's Foundation series and it was extroadinary. I recently purchased I Robot and have only gotten a little bit of the way into it and so far I like it.
Fiona wrote: "Tom wrote: "Lori wrote: "Tom wrote:Everyone is obviously entitled to his or her opinion, but how can you presume to moderate a discussion about books and not appreciate the perceptive towering geni..."When I encounter a book that is considered a classic, and find that I do not appreciate it, my reaction is not that there's a problem with the book - but the problem is with me.
Why didn't I like it or get it or understand it? What am I missing?
I admit I have trouble with Henry James. I can't read most of his novels. I consider that a failing on my part - not his.
The fault is not in the writer but in the reader.
That's always keeping an open mind and wanting to always learn something new and discover new writers. My greatest joy is the belief that around the next corner is another great book to be read and I'm willing to give it a try - or try again. That's being alive.
So when I encounter people who blithely or arbitrarily dismiss classics without giving them their due consideration or their proper respect, then I have to question that response - particularly those who have set themselves up as some sort of arbiter or moderator.
I respect a book that has withstood the test of time and the judgment of millions of readers who have come before me.
If that, as I'm being accused, makes me an intellectual or an elitist, then GUILTY AS CHARGED.
Mod
Again, I admit I disliked it. I did not BLTIHELY DISMISS it as one of the most important books in our language, though.
However, you refuse to read my posts for what they are, and stubbornly continue to see and interpret what you want.
Yes I HATED it. NO I wouldnt wish this book on anyone. I understand that others out there loved it, and appreciate it. However, for me, I would rather someone stick toothpicks under my fingernails and play country music to me than to EVER EVER EVER have to read that shit again.
Thanks :)
Tom wrote: "Perhaps you should read up on why this book is so good and the profound effect it continues to have on literature, writers and culture.Given how many writers have been deeply affected and influenced by Heart of Darkness, it is perhaps one of the most influential books in our language. It is iconic.
You don't necessarily have to "like" or "enjoy" a book to be able to appreciate it. "
Tom,
If these are your criteria for why someone should read and appreciate a particular book, then perhaps you should move Gravity's Rainbow from the bottom to the top of your to-read list.
You know, that's one of the nice things about being finished with graduate school - no longer having to finish books you don't enjoy.
I disagree with the theory that just because something is considered a classic that it should respected or appreciated. Yes, it may have been influencial, but if I thought a book is terrible, then why should I care if it influenced more potentially terrible books? I'm not looking for leadership ability in my books, I'm looking for enjoyability. And if the book I'm reading lacks that, then it's not worth my time or appreciation.
I hated, despised and LOATHED Beloved, which by all (questionable) accounts is a classic. Toni Morrison even won awards for that tripe. That's great for her, but I think I'd rather gouge out my own eyes than read that book again.
I am a fairly well-educated adult, and capable of reading and understanding many different types of words and sentences and even following a story all the way through! BY MYSELF! But that story was not worth the trouble. And I'll NEVER apologize for that opinion.
Mod
It was never assigned to me in school. Funny. Well, I dont mean Ha-ha funny, I mean sick and twisted self torture funny :)
I've always felt that one of the benefits of being well-read and widely-read is the ability to develop, and intelligently express, your own opinions of the value of a piece of writing. That's why I'm always skeptical of the recommendation of someone who's opinion is based on that of others or on the perceived status of the book as a classic. If that's your basis for evaluating books, why even consider yourself a reader?
Mod
Tom seems to get upset when people dont like books that "others" place on the literary pedestal. So now I'm not taking it personally. Phew. And here I thought my literary world was going to come crashing down on me!
well Lori, just make sure and run everything by us before you start and we'll tell you if its good or not, since your judgment is very questionable ;)
Mod
Off the top of my head here are two that I certainly didn't get or wish I hadn't got.Naked Lunch The Restored Text huh?
By Bread Alone only half-baked?
I liked Heart of Darkness, but neither it nor Conrad has ever made it to one of my top tens. OH NOES! I am teh unrefined yokel!
All I can say is that I am sorry you missed out on what I consider to be one of the most extraordinary reading experiences I have ever had - three times, actually since I think it's the only book I've read 3 times and I'm not a rereader.
I think people need to revisit the idea that reading is a personal choice and a personal passion. Sure books have influenced other books and some books are considered great classics while others may not be, but deep down everyone reads for one thing. Enjoyment. Its not fair to judge someone because of their tastes and if its so upsetting, its best to probably avoid topics that encourage negative opinions.. because, in such a widely diverse world, you're bound to find someone that disagrees with you.
Dan wrote: "I've always felt that one of the benefits of being well-read and widely-read is the ability to develop, and intelligently express, your own opinions of the value of a piece of writing. That's why ..."Yeah, there's no point in going to school or even bothering with college. I mean, what do they know!
There is an established recognized body of literature that has created and articulates Western culture. It continues to grow - fortunately - but it is defined and worth respecting and trying to understand because it is rewarding.
I take the view that if I don't appreciate one of these works, then the problem is not with the book, but with me because of my failure to understand it. It just means I've missed something and should try harder.
Why is this concept so upsetting to people?
Eat, Pray, Love (I know this evokes strong feelings both ways, so please note this is my opinion of this book)Bridges of Madison County
Da Vinci Code
I agree with you on Eat, Pray, Love Coco. While it was mildly entertaining in some parts, it seemed to drag on and on for me.
Tom, I'm a former English major (moved into the biological sciences) who now works in the English department of a university, and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that even the most well-read literary scholars don't like everything that's considered a classic. You can recognize that a piece of literature was important for its time without liking it, or even recommending it. I know some people who would turn their noses up at the idea of Heart of Darkness being presented as great literature because it doesn't fit their definition of "literature" (basically start at Austen and go backward). Did you know that your beloved Heart of Darkness would be considered pop lit by some scholars, never to be taught in a serious literature class?
I've found that just because a book is a classic does not automatically mean that it is good. I dislike The Catcher in the Rye, Winesburg, Ohio and a few others that are generally recognized as classics and great literature. I don't read to think, "Gee! This book must have influenced other writers, therefore it is a great book no matter how uninteresting I found it!" I read for pleasure and information that is interesting to me personally. Not what everyone else considers interesting.
Tom, just out of curiosity, why would you feel the need to "try harder" at liking something that you did not enjoy the first time around? Didn't Albert Einstein once quote the definition of insanity as "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"?
Mod
Taste is all relative.
And Tom, to answer your question, I dont think the concept is upsetting to people here. What is upsetting is they way you are talking down to some of us for not liking what you consider to be earth shattering works of genuis.
I think by this logic as well, if I don't like some kind of food that is considered gourmet, something is wrong with me. Or that if I find that particular important historical sites less interesting than others, something is wrong with me. I don't think that's true. I think we're all born to have preferences, and it's our ability to accept that and debate our preferences gracefully that is important.And I agree with Lori that it is the condescending nature of the comments that is the issue. Many of us are well-read people, and were English or liberal arts majors in college. We have studied that canon. I absolutely could articulate for you the importance of some major works of literature that I just did not personally like, but accept that they were influential in the literary sphere. There's a difference between preference for a book and acceptance of it's significance in the literary world.
To get back to the topic at hand...Top 10 books to avoid. I would have to say, to me, they would be:
1. Wicked (I read the whole thing but just felt it lacked the magic (literally) that made the wicked witch of the west so great. It wasn't terrible but it was extremely disappointing to me)
2. Breaking Dawn (There were issues with the whole Twilight saga but this one in particular was torcher for me to finish. It was so very bad, to me)
3. Breakfast at Tiffanys (This is a romantic no brainer book and though the idea behind it is really interesting it ends corny and... well just yuck)
4. Stardust (I read the book first before I ever saw the movie and I have to say that with this book the movie was so much better. I hated the ending to this book. There was no umph to it, like there was to the movie and the downfall of the witch)
Then with Young Adult Books:
5. Any book by Scott Westerfeld (I've read a couple of his and they all begin really good but the endings are just not what you want. I guess I would say they do not give you that since of closer and not in a good way like with Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell)
6. I hate to do it but I would also put Heart of Darkness on here. I just had so much trouble getting through the book because it bored me to tears. It seemed to be forever till they got to where they were going.
I generally like most books I pick up and read though. So I would never truly tell someone to avoid a book all together but I would definately warn them of my experience with it.
But lets get back to the true questions here and just ignore Tom. He's had his rant. Now lets move on...
I think the most interesting account of the Belgians in the Congo (which clearly inspired Heart of Darkness) is in chapter 5 of The Vertigo Years Europe 1900-1914.
Kelly, I have to agree with you on Wicked. That book was such a disappointment for me, especially after all the hype. It just wasn't what I was expecting. However, the musical is really enjoyable.
Have you read any other books by Maguire? I tried to read The Ugly Stepsister and couldn't get into it. I have Son of a Witch sitting on my bookself but... I'm avoiding it. lol
I had read Mirror Mirror sometime after I read Wicked. I didn't want to dismiss him based off one book because he is popular and his stories seem interesting, but I don't think he's for me. Mirror Mirror was a retelling of Snow White. It was more interesting than Wicked but some parts I found boring.
I was really dispointed in Wicked as well, even mor eso because I loved the musical. I haven't read any others by him because that one left such a bad taste in my mouth, but I hope one day to try another. Like Jackie, I hate to dimiss an author, so many seem to love, based on one bad experience.
Books I've given a one-star rating:The Catcher in the Rye
The Sound and the Fury
Death in Venice
Books I've given a two-star rating:
The Great Gatsby
The Stranger
Lord of the Flies
Heart of Darkness
Frankenstein
The Red Badge of Courage
A Confederacy of Dunces
There are more one- and two-star ratings in my list, but there's my top ten.
Mod
ahhhhh... It was love! I actually just bought William Goldings "The Inheritors", and hope it is as good or better than LotF's!!
Lori,The thing that set me against Catcher in the Rye was the way Holden rants on and on about not being able to stand phonies when he is, in fact, the biggest phony he knows. Lord of the Flies just never captured my attention.
Or it could just be that I have a warped personality and strange tastes in literature. :)
Kelly wrote: "To get back to the topic at hand...Top 10 books to avoid. I would have to say, to me, they would be:
1. Wicked (I read the whole thing but just felt it lacked the magic (literally) that mad..."
I also hated Heart of Darkness. I was did a dual degree in college--Women's Studies & then Eng. Lit. I had to read Heart of Darkness for both majors on multiple occasions. Every semester I'd read it with disgust, sell it for 5 pennies, then have to buy it again for 10 bucks the next semester. I swear I read it 6 times while I was in school. I thought I'd catch on to the "genius" of the book, but I never did. I only hated it more. C'est la vie.
Kandice wrote: "I was really dispointed in Wicked as well, even mor eso because I loved the musical. I haven't read any others by him because that one left such a bad taste in my mouth, but I hope one day to try a..."I hear from so many people that they hated Wicked--both on Goodreads and in person. I'm always so shocked because I loved loved loved it--like it's one of my favorite books ever--I thought it was a wonderfully written fantasy, very intelligent, clever, and entertaining until the end. Now that I think of it, I don't think I've ever met a person who liked the book besides myself. I must be a silly duck! I also loved "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister" which was nothing like "Wicked" but very good. Lyrical writing, captivating story. It's shorter, more digestible, not so about "ideas" or whatnot. Tell you what Maguire book I *hated* though--Lost. Ugh! That was the first Maguire book I read. I'm surprised I read anything else by him after that. It was a confusing, depressing, boring book. I'd be curious to see what others thought about that one if they've read it.
Coco wrote: "Eat, Pray, Love (I know this evokes strong feelings both ways, so please note this is my opinion of this book)Bridges of Madison County
Da Vinci Code"
I also hated Bridges of Madison County and Da Vinci Code. Too bad on the latter because the content was interesting but it was so poorly written I wanted to throw up a little bit. I couldn't finish Eat Pray Love. Got through the first part in Italy but after that...yeah. It's moldering on my shelves as we speak.
I will weigh in on a book that I hated but many people love and think is a great book: Winter's Tale by Mark Helprin. Gosh, was that awful! Good idea, bad execution. I couldn't even finish it.
The Next Best Book Club
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R U INSANE????
No one thinks that bella and edwards relationship is normal and healthy, but it is romantic that edward would give anything to be with bella and bella would do the same. I know somewhere in that dormant heart of yours you wish for someone who would be as willing to give their life if you died as they are for each other.