Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion
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Rape in Books
My two cents are the following... I will not accept rape between hero and heroine. I will not accept rape written as a positive act. If there's a rape, it better darned well be a villain involved, and it better be portrayed negatively.
And if an author writes the hero raping the heroine and her falling in love with him, I call extreme BS. Forced seduction is one thing. That's not rape. A real rape...let's just say I can't stretch my suspension of disbelief that far. Nor do I want to. Not romantic, in the least.
Rape "play" is not rape. If a couple consensually wants to play at a "non-consensual scenario"...beyond the fact that they should have a safe word...it may not be to my tastes, but I won't complain about it in a book. It's all about power exchange and trust, and if they have it, it's at least better than blood play, in my book.
I have written rape scenes, and I've read them. If they serve a purpose, do it. Some people won't like it, so warn them they exist, IMO.
Brenna
As a victim of rape, the scenes that offend me are the ones that portray it as something that she just "gets over" right away, or the ones where they have the female character suddenly fall for her attacker - NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Rape is a traumatic event that takes years to recover from, and may cause other problems even after the worst is over. No woman who has been through a rape is comfortable with the scenes, but it can be central to the story, and should be handled with honesty and sensitivity.
One of my first romance authors had rape in tw of her books and I was so disgusted that I threw both books away which I have never, ever done! Rape does not belong in romance books as like both your ladies said, there isn't anything romantic about it, just hatred and violence!
i dont really mind it in the books i have read it in, i think i read it in 2 series. its always hard to get throught the scene but it like not every series has rape in them, only some of them. i would only seriously hate it if there was rape between the main heroine and hero, that would make me soooo mad!
In J.D. Robb's In Death series, she does deal with rape, but she never goes into serious detail and it is short. As the series goes on, the character deals with it and becomes stronger. This is the only exception for me..
Rape scenes do not bother me, but I agree that it should not happen between a hero and heroine. Rape is a cruel act and is not a "redeemable" quality, like portrayed in so many bodice ripper books of past decades.If an author is going to write about rape, it should be clarified as a bad experience, and hopefully is not there for the sake of shock value, but moreso as an integral part of the storyline (hopefully to show the strength of the heroine as she learns to overcome).
Falling for the person that abused you should not be an acceptable plotline, and it's hard to believe that it ever was. Unless you're talking about stockholm syndrome or something (is that what it's called when you fall for the person controlling you?) and that's the actual book topic.
Now rough play or rape play is different. There is an element of consent involved. I even like scenes in which the hero gets a little alpha and pushes his girl against the wall like he's going to get his way (but you KNOW he'd stop if she protested).
I am fine with rape scenes that show how wrong it is but, like the above, I'm not okay with a protagonist falling in love with their offender or any bullshit of the like. I personally believe they shouldn't let authors write stories if they're going to portray rape in a positive light (or even as a negative thing that turns into something "good"). This kind of writing should be banned. It's unrealistic and offensive to real rape victims. I also think it's offensive (or should be) to men because they're always portrayed as the offender. It plays on the idea that men think with their penises (which is a physiological/biological impossibility) and that they can't control their libido/emotions ergo it is perfectly okay for them to express their frustrations in a vulgar and sexual manner whether it be physical or verbal because "that's their nature" and that "they're just being men/boys". Think about it: How many people have been traumatized and injured by a clitoris compared to the number of people who have been traumatized and injured by a penis, especially in any media? That's what I'd like to know. I'm not saying they should start writing something where a person gets hurt by a clitoris (because they SHOULDN'T) but it's definitely food for thought about how unequal the grounds are as far as gender equality goes. I'm not saying it doesn't happen either because it does but the number of men and women raped by other men is staggering. I bet that the idea of a clitoris being harmful alone would terrify many people. Do men want to be seen as rabid animals or civilized human beings? If men and women want to be treated with respect, this kind of writing needs to end.I haven't read any paranormal books where there was rape. If anyone knows of any books where they shed it in a positive light, let me know so that I can stay away from those books PLEASE!
Stacia wrote: "Rape scenes do not bother me, but I agree that it should not happen between a hero and heroine. Rape is a cruel act and is not a "redeemable" quality, like portrayed in so many bodice ripper books..."Yeah, it's called Stockholm Syndrome but it mostly applies to people who are being held hostage for ransom (and, most of the time, the feeling becomes mutual), not rape victims because it's virtually non-existent and unrealistic.
Rape in books (or any other media) is a touchy subject for me. I'm not a rape victim, but I was molested as a child and I was fearful and mistrustful of men for many years afterward. If those kinds of scenes disturb me, I can't imagine how it would be for someone who had been raped, especially when it's the hero raping the heroine. Fortunately most of the books featuring that scenario are from the old school, bodice ripper era, so you don't come across it often in recently published books. If you're reading a romance novel from the '80s or earlier, it shouldn't be a surprise to come across it. I don't really get why there was ever a time when that was popular, when rape was seen as an indicator of virility. If the hero rapes the heroine, he's no longer a hero in my mind. Period.If the heroine is raped by the villain and it’s something that is necessary to the plot and not, as someone else said above, just thrown in for shock value, I can deal with it depending on how it’s portrayed. One way or another, I don’t enjoy reading about it, but there are times it’ll bother me less than others. It really comes down to how the author handles it.
"Fortunately most of the books featuring that scenario are from the old school, bodice ripper era, so you don't come across it often in recently published books."Harper, I wish I could say this was so, but it's not. It's not just pre-1990 books that do this. One NY Times bestseller I can name is no longer a favorite of mine because she had rape to love between not one but three of her h/hs that I read. The first one was an older book of hers, and I chalked it up to the era. Then I found two new ones (back to back) that did it, and I vowed never to read her again. NEVER. And I won't.
I've also been raped...date raped, and not a fricken chance that I'm going to waste my money and time reading it between a "romantic" couple.
One amusing one for Munky, though. I have a novella in which the hero is raped. He's fed a powerful aphrodisiac and dumped into bed with a woman he loathes. They do not end up together, of course, but he definitely experiences the anger and upset of the act. In fact, since he BELIEVES (not true) that he raped someone else under the effects of it, his guilt is off the charts about that. Almost all of the other times I've used rape or near rape has been a male villain offender, but I have one near rape M/M scene in a novelette.
Brenna
The Undead Heart by Tate Jackson has a rape in it but it's not portrayed as good thing. It forms the personality of Beck (the main charater) and the man that did it pays hell for it! more than once! It's a great read. you should try it out. Theres a The Undead Heart group on goodreads and the book is available from amazon.com as a hard copy and kindle ebook (the ebook is cheaper). There's also a website you should check out. http://www.theundeadheart.yolasite.com that has the first chapter of the book and the first chapter has the rape in it. The book is wonderful but it's a series and it ends with "to be continued". Don't know when the second one comes out yet but I can't wait to find out what happens. It leaves you in suspense and was worth every penny!. I ordered the ebook to start with but ordered the hard copy yesterday for my collection. There's also alot of humor in the book that I wasn't expecting but enjoyed greatly. No regrets about this book!
I just recently read a contemporary romance by Lisa Kleypas that had a rape scene in it and although it was hard to read (and LK pulled it off very well) I think it was an important part to the story and the character building. The rape was done by the husband after months of emotional and physical abuse and that was what finally woke up the heroine to what was right and wrong in a marriage. She left him and moved on with her life, but she had therapy and even panic episodes with her new relationship. Of course, her new lover had no objections to sexual therapy to get her past all the trauma, lol! Anyways, all in all I think it was well written and it didn't bother me much because I knew it was a 'necessary evil' to the overall story and the characters.
Wow! All of you guys bring up some good points.@Brenna, I agree with a lot of what you say. I also agree that rape scenes can serve a purpose.
@Harper, You brought something to my attention I was unaware of. I've never really read any romance books in the 80's or early 90's. I didn't realize rape themes were popular in that time era.
Maybe that is why I can't understand why people get so upset with rape scenes because I've never really read a book that has had a true rape scene. It's either a women being forced upon by a man who she really wants and in the end they both enjoy it. Or in PNR books a women is given an aphrodisiac so she in turn actually wants sex from anybody. I don't consider that rape.
Perhaps I should get a book written in the 80's to see how romance authors wrote a rape scene back then.
For me, there is a certain appeal that comes with being controlled and forced upon. However, I don't really think it's considered rape when the other person involved is equally enjoying it.
Lisa,Rape is not about sex and certainly not about love. It's about control, violent application of control, at that. It's not consensual and not mutually enjoyable.
What you're talking about is forced seduction or rape fantasy play.
Brenna
Mod
If one partner doesn't consent or isn't aware enough to consent to sex, it's rape. For me, that includes someone being drugged with an aphrodisiac or what have you.
I have problems with the trope of a woman being drugged so she'll have sex she wouldn't otherwise consent to, and then she enjoys it so it's okay. To me, that seems like the author is uncomfortable with the idea of the woman enjoying sex that she "shouldn't" like, so there's a ready-built excuse in the drug/aphrodisiac. She can enjoy it because she has no agency; it's not her fault, therefore she's not a slut. The Anita Blake series went down this path, IMO, when LKH introduced the ardeur. It wasn't just that Anita liked banging all of those different guys, she had to. It's a cop-out, IMO.
Rape in books makes me uncomfortable, but then it should. If it's handled well (like in the Mercy Thompson series), I'm okay with it. I'm not a big fan of it being used as character development, but like I said, if it's handled well, I can deal.
If it's tossed in for titillation or if the heroine gets over it the next day or (god forbid) falls in love with her rapist, I can't dal.
(whoa, stepping off the soapbox now)
Brenna wrote: "Harper, I wish I could say this was so, but it's not. It's not just pre-1990 books that do this. One NY Times bestseller I can name is no longer a favorite of mine because she had rape to love between not one but three of her h/hs that I read.Oh, wow. I hadn't come across H/h rape in any recently published romance novels I've read. It sucks to hear that some authors are still doing it. As I said before, I never understood how/why that got popular in the first place. :(
Lisa wrote: "@Harper, You brought something to my attention I was unaware of. I've never really read any romance books in the 80's or early 90's. I didn't realize rape themes were popular in that time era. Maybe that is why I can't understand why people get so upset with rape scenes because I've never really read a book that has had a true rape scene...
Oh, yeah, there was a long stretch there where *a lot* of romance novels had rape between the H/h. In fact, I've read interviews from authors who wrote during that era and they said that the publishers would actually ask them to do it. Very weird, IMO. If you want to read some, I can think of three off the top of my head where the hero rapes the heroine. It's definitely not forced seduction, but outright fighting and screaming. Pretty unsettling.
Here is a good article from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books about rape in romance:http://www.smartbitchestrashybooks.co...
Harper wrote: "Here is a good article from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books about rape in romance:http://www.smartbitchestrashybooks.co..."
I LOVE SMART BITCHES! I love how snarky and awesomesaucecakes they are.
Oh yeah, DO NOT watch Splice...it's such a bad movie. Here's a review/rant-ish/summary-thing of it (not mine):
http://makesomelove.livejournal.com/2...
Brenna wrote: "One amusing one for Munky, though. I have a novella in which the hero is raped. He's fed a powerful aphrodisiac and dumped into bed with a woman he loathes. They do not end up together, of course, but he definitely experiences the anger and upset of the act. In fact, since he BELIEVES (not true) that he raped someone else under the effects of it, his guilt is off the charts about that. Almost all of the other times I've used rape or near rape has been a male villain offender, but I have one near rape M/M scene in a novelette."
Good God, what an odd way to portray the penis (I'm imagining him talking to his dong and asking it why it did what it did over and over again). It feels as if it's some kind of parody of how rape scenes go with some kind of condescension to it. I partly feel bad for the guy because he was raped but I feel no empathy for the way he feels about how he raped the woman instead of the other way around. It's like him saying, "Oh~ my penis took away someone else's ~flower~...poor girl..." Yeah. No.
Who's the author of these books that you've read? I want to make ABSOLUTE SURE I stay away from them and don't support their work by buying it or something.
Munky wrote: "Oh yeah, DO NOT watch Splice...it's such a bad movie. Here's a review/rant-ish/summary-thing of it (not mine)"My best friend saw "Splice" and told me about it. She said there were some scenes that she felt crossed the line and made her feel really uncomfortable. It almost made my husband and I want to go watch at the theater just to see what she meant. Maybe when it comes out on DVD.
Smart Bitches is an awesome stuff. Their articles/reviews crack me up.
Lisa wrote: "Or in PNR books a women is given an aphrodisiac so she in turn actually wants sex from anybody. I don't consider that rape."I would consider that rape. If I were drunk and someone took advantage of me, I would say that's rape. If I wouldn't do it sober, then it's definitely something I wouldn't want inebriated.
TDF Pamela wrote: "The Anita Blake series went down this path, IMO, when LKH introduced the ardeur. It wasn't just that Anita liked banging all of those different guys, she had to. It's a cop-out, IMO."NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~ I'm reading Guilty Pleasures right now. It's not my favorite book and I don't want to continue if this style of writing is utilized...what book does she start banging everyone? I don't mind sex but I don't like it if it has nothing to do with anything.
Harper wrote:"My best friend saw "Splice" and told me about it. She said there were some scenes that she felt crossed the line and made her feel really uncomfortable. It almost made my husband and I want to go watch at the theater just to see what she meant. Maybe when it comes out on DVD.""Crossed the line" is an understatement. "Crossed every single line imaginable" would probably be another understatement. There's a REALLY disturbing rape scene and the heroine and the hero...it's so stupid, I still can't even wrap my head around it. If you plan on watching it, rent it or something. It's not worth your money.
Munky wrote: "Harper wrote:"My best friend saw "Splice" and told me about it. She said there were some scenes that she felt crossed the line and made her feel really uncomfortable. It almost made my husband and ..."Yeah, we'll probably just get it from Netflix eventually. She did describe some of the scenes to me and it all sounded rather crazy. I wonder if a lot of it was just for shock value.
I agree with the fact that if there is a rape scene, it dang well better be the bad guy that is doing it. I have no problems with some rough love play, and that dominate mine attitude. That can be sexy as hell. But rape? Nope, not at all sexy and I wouldn't put up with reading a book where the main characters is raped and then falls in love with the guy. A guy that would be willing to do that to someone isn't the kind of guy that I would like.Most of the books that have been mentioned in this thread I haven't read, so I can't comment on them. But I will say that I really like the way that Patricia Briggs has handled that subject in her Mercedes Thompson series. First off, the actual rape was heart breaking and devestating, but not extrememly detailed. Which I appreciated. And Mercy certainly hasn't just gotten over it quickly. She has dealt with the real feeling and emotions and later issues that can happen when that has happened to you. If she has just dealt with it within a week or two and it supposedly never affected her again, I just wouldn't believe that. And I'm glad that although she is working through the issues and moving on, it's happening in a more realistic time frame.
Harper wrote: "Yeah, we'll probably just get it from Netflix eventually. She did describe some of the scenes to me and it all sounded rather crazy. I wonder if a lot of it was just for shock value. "With the way they wrote the scenes, it was no doubt for shock value. It was shocking because of how ridiculous it was so...yeah. If you think about it, it's pretty lulzy too but still disturbingly stupid.
It's okay when the villain of the story does it. If it were something that happened in my real life, I might not be so open to it in my fantasy life. But as it is, I don't really have a problem with rape scenes. It's all part of my fantasy life.
Melanie Rawn is one of my favorite Romantic Fantasy authors. Her series Dragon Prince were and are some of my favorite. However, later in the Dragon Prince series her heroine gets raped... That was my least favorite book of hers.
Kelley Anne wrote: "I really like the way that Patricia Briggs has handled that subject in her Mercedes Thompson series."I agree, Briggs treated the subject with respect. I always compare the way other books treat rape with the way she's portrayed it.
There are some books (I'm not going to name names) which completely ignore the effect rape can have on the victim. I get really angry when I come across these and automatically give them 1 star regardless of whether the story was good or not.
As long as the issue is dealt with in a realistic and respectful way, I won't have a problem with it.
Mod
Its also true that someone who has been abused carries those scars for the rest of their life. Physical and mental scars. And again, men can be abused by their wives/girlfriends, its just not something that they are usually willing to admit to.
Anytime you have a person who has been brutalized in any way, there are always lasting aftereffects. And to have a writer just wave a magic wand over the character and have them get over it right away is so totally unrealistic that I won't bother reading another book by an author who does it.
Amy or "Ames" wrote: "There are some books (I'm not going to name names) which completely ignore the effect rape can have on the victim. I get really angry when I come across these and automatically give them 1 star regardless of whether the story was good or not."I do the same thing...but then again, I haven't come across very many of these. Anyway, PLEASE name them...I want to stay away from them DDDD:
wow I never thought anyone would come around to talking about this. rape in books and movies bothers me a lot. most times its not portrayed realistically and it leaves a bitter taste for me I have two cousins who have been victims of rape and attempted rape and I know it virtually destroyed their lives and they are still dealing with it even today. Rape can never be romantic whenever i read it I feel like I'm boiling inside and sometimes end up crying and feeling emotional for the rest of the day maybe these books and movies should come with warning so I can stay away from them.
To simply put it...I dont want to read about rape in books.However, most of the paranormal romance books I've read concern a tortured person. Let it be the hero or heroine. So there's rape/sexual assault involved in the storyline. So knowing that the person was raped develops the storyline and how they overcome the rape makes the book more interesting to read.
BUT, if the act of getting raped or brutally assaulted is being written or described...i try to avoid it at all cost.
So, to summarize:
'Ok, I can deal with it...': written in past-tensed or just indicated that the act was done to prove a point in the storyline and not described.
'No.No.No.OMFG NO!': intensely/disgustingly described from the tearing of clothing to the sounds of screaming and written 'just because the book needed some action'.
I agree with what people have said, rape between the hero and heroine is just not acceptable, to me it is totally wrong and unrealistic, I mean how can you fall in love with some one who has invaded and violated you like that? Any books that have rape between the h/H I now don't bother reading, I have read some and it just ruins the whole book.Rape in general when it happens between a "baddie" and the h/H I don't mind having that as a story element, but I think it is something I would have to judge on a book to book basis, depending on how it was handled by the author. Even if it isn't comfortable reading I don't mind as obviously rape isn't a comfortable experience, it all depends on hoew the aftermath is dealt with.
I do think though that if the heroine is given aphrodsiacs that is rape, especially if the heroine is slipped it without knowing.
A woman being drugged or given an aphrodisiac and then having sex with her is definitely still rape. Where I live in Illinois it is actually codified in law that if a person (not just a woman) cannot legally give consent, then it is rape. Proving it,is of course harder. I had a bunch of stuff typed out and deleted it. It was my discussion of several different PNR/UF series -- but I realized it had spoilers. One of my very very favorite UF series has a rape at the end and beginning of two of her books and the recovery of the character throughout one of the books. But I am still on the fence as to how it was treated.
It is such a difficult issue, for so long rape was sexualized in our country and woman blamed for it -- still is and they still are to some extent.
I have a very big problem with stories that have men kidnapping the female, keeping her captive and then eventually she wants him. There is a PNR series that I have not read bc of this theme.
Just finished watching The Girl with The dragon ratio and have to admit there was two scenes that really got to me but I have to admit that they were necessary as part if the story. The heroine is already pretty messed up and the actress protrayed the charter well. It was very uncomfortable watching and in no way did she recover from it.I agree Briggs handled the subject well
Rape is a difficult topic and I don't think it should be trested lightly if an author choses to introduce it in their story. There should always be a point and it shouldn't be done for shock value.The kidnapping thing, I think that depends how it is done. I have read a good number of books with that in it where they turned out quite well. Although I have also read them when they were kidnapped, raped and yet STILL fell in love with the hero, at that point I didn't even finish reading the book, it made me too angry!
I will say that I really like the way that Patricia Briggs has handled that subject in her Mercedes Thompson series. I don't enjoy books where characters are brutialized, whether is being raped, tortured or anything along those lines. I've actually lost interest in the Mercy Thompson series since the rape. To me it has served no purpose and I really can't fathom any purpose it would serve in future books.
Have you read the subsequent books? It is an important issue she and Adam have to struggle with.
Yes, actually I have. I have a couple of ideas as to what Briggs was trying to achieve with the rape. However, the story could have been steered in a similar direction without the inclusion of a rape.
I think Briggs' had a unique view of UF. There are serious downsides to the preternatural and supernatural. Violence is not pretty. Fighting and winning is not easy. There are repercussions for evil, and for violence. She showed a man who was consumed with power and used his power in an evil way to attempt to over power mercy for his own selfish desires. He was a true villain and there are consequences to that. Additionally, in the process of Mercy's recovery we saw a side to Adam we wouldn't have otherwise seen.
Laula wrote: "wow I never thought anyone would come around to talking about this. rape in books and movies bothers me a lot. most times its not portrayed realistically and it leaves a bitter taste for me I have ..."Most films do have warnings about such themes. If a film contains a rape scene its usually classed MA (minimum) under "containing disturbing scenes". But if you’re going to see a film and you know it has some sort of underlined theme but you don’t know what it is, you can just research it on the net and there will be sites out there that give warnings about films that contain this content that also don’t give away the plot, so that might be helpful for you :)
As for books, well, they’re a little bit harder seeing they don’t have ratings. The best you can do with that is research your books before you read them :P Hope that helps with your future reads/films!
I'm just getting to the bit in The GIrl with the Dragon Tattoo novel I really found uncomfy in the film. The book is a tad better at showing Lisbets character but still it is going to be a tough read, I just know it. :(
SPOILER ALERT:I think it is good to be made to feel uncomfortable while reading a book. It means the writer is challenging me and I like that. Some things we don't think about because it is too horrible.
I find that rape in the fantasy genre loses some of it's sting because the people involved are not human or are so far from human that we can "excuse" it somehow. For instance, (and here comes spoilers)when Bill rapes Sookie, I was stunned. And I was more uncomfortable with Sookie's reaction than I was with the rape itself. But because Bill is a vampire, she excused it and decided that he was out of his head with hunger and didn't know it was her, so he can't be held responsible.
I read a short story about a demon serial rapist and again, because he was a demon, there was no outrage or anything. It was just supposed to be "erotic."
When a violent crime changes the character and moves the story in a particular direction, I'm fine with it. But the victim has to have a believable voice about it. I don't want the victim just shrugging it off. Another example with Sookie Stackhouse is when she was tortured. That was harder for me than most rape scenes I've read and she had a more normal reaction to it and it changed her character. Again, it was hard to read, not comfortable, but the victim reacted in a way that made sense to me.
Lisa - I agree about her reaction to Bill.
I also agree about her reaction to Bill, I was reading it thinking, "What the hell!?" But then it was kind of forgotten, and I think no matter how you reason it out, you would still have an emotional response, you couldn't just shrug it off and carry on as usual.
Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (other topics)A Reliable Wife (other topics)
Dark Destiny (other topics)
The Scent of Shadows (other topics)
Storm Born (other topics)
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I can understand if someone has been a victim of rape that it might be hard to read a rape scene. However, a lot of the books we all read also describe scenes of physical abuse and acts of violence. It doesn't seem to me like those topics get such a negative reaction than that of rape.
I'm curious to know your response on rape scenes and I hope I don't offend anyone.