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Archived Group Reads 2009-10
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"Far From the Madding Crowd" Part 3: Chapters XXI-XXIX
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Christopher wrote: "You are correct that he did wait for Fanny at the church; but then he essentially casts all of that goodwill away in what almost turns out to be an almost schadenfreude moment for him when she comes hustling up out of breath."Well, I don't think he casts all of it away. :) At that point, the clergy had departed so they couldn't go ahead with the marriage then. But he had had the humiliation of standing at of the altar in front of the clergy and the parishioners who had stuck around to see a wedding, and that would have been a very hard thing to do, just stand there for an hour waiting. I'm not surprised at all that he was cross at that moment and snapped out at her. Very human, I thought.
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "You are correct that he did wait for Fanny at the church; but then he essentially casts all of that goodwill away in what almost turns out to be an almost schadenfreude moment f..."You, my friend, are a very kind human to give the 'good' Sergeant the latitude here. I'd like to think that I had probably told my beloved the name of the church incorrectly, and that it was all my fault. We'd come back the next day and "tie the knot" because I loved her so much. Seriously though, Everyman, strictly from a romantic perspective how the hell could you be that cross with a woman you ostensibly love enough to marry. Come on, I think most of us would be worried to death at where she was, is she okay--but could you really treat her like that? While Troy is 'human' as you say, methinks there's a little image of Bathsheba flitting about in the man's head while dressing-down Fanny Robin. That is not steadfastness or constancy, in my book.
Christopher wrote: "Everyman, strictly from a romantic perspective how the hell could you be that cross with a woman you ostensibly love enough to marry. "Well, at this point in the book I don't think we've seen all that much love between Troy and Fanny, have we? She was a servant, he's an army officer from the same village or area, they probably had a little tryst, he may have (being mindful as Paula reminds us to keep it as clean as possible) toyed with a bit more than her affections and in the heat of the situation promised to marry her, he goes off as soldiers do to the next posting, but she follows him and pleads with him to remember his promise (perhaps quite casually made, we don't know, but we do know that she's now the one chasing after him). The original readers got no further than that, but Hardy stuck in this extra chapter to make Troy an honorable man, so you have to stick that in your anti-Troy pipe and smoke it , but I get the impression that he might not have been all that enthusiastic about this marriage in the first place, and then when he was willing to go through with his promise and marry her she humiliates him in public.
Ah, what a great job Hardy does of making him, as all real humans are, ambiguous and complex enough that two devoted Hardy readers can have quite different views of him.
Everyman wrote: "(being mindful as Paula reminds us to keep it as clean as possible) ..."I don't know how to adequately express what I mean here. Obviously there will be sexual references, and we can discuss them. I just mean don't go overboard.
Also, of course we can thoroughly discuss details here, I just mean let's stay to the actual book and relevant background info. I mean, there was an interesting conversation going on about the color red, and it all seemed to be relevant. That's great. But you wouldn't expect anyone to go into great detail about the color red and its importance to the Anlo-Ewe people of Ghana, right?
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Everyman, strictly from a romantic perspective how the hell could you be that cross with a woman you ostensibly love enough to marry. "Well, at this point in the book I don't ..."
I don't have that missing chapter in my Penguin edition, so my impression of Troy's character is extremely negative. I wish that they had included this missing chapter because it explains Troy's behavior in the later part of the book. Without it, his behavior seems to be at odds with his known characterization.
I thought that Hardy is too good a writer to have created such a one-dimensional character, and based on people's comments on that missing chapter, it seems that I was right.
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Everyman, strictly from a romantic perspective how the hell could you be that cross with a woman you ostensibly love enough to marry. "Well, at this point in the book I don't ..."
Everyman (LOL!), point very well taken for the moment. I do reserve the right to come back at a future date and continue this discussion you. ;-)
I have to completely agree with Hardy's creation of ambiguities. Every character is loaded with 'em, and that's what, for me, makes Hardy so devilishly delightful to read. We live is a world of 'grays' and Hardy writes in all of those subtle, yet different, tones of gray. Well said, Everyman! Cheers! Chris
Everyman wrote: "....very human I thought..."I agree with your analysis Everyman and had made the point earlier that I thought it would have been very humiliating for a young man to wait at the church in front of sniggering onlookers: 'A slight flush had mounted his cheek by the time he had run the gauntlet between these women; but, passing on through the chancel arch, he never paused till he came close to the altar railing'. Later, as he continued to stand there 'The women threw off their nervousness, and titters and giggling became more frequent.' Then he turned to walk 'resolutely down the nave, braving them all, with a compressed lip. Two bowed and toothless old almsmen looked up at each other, and chuckled, innocently enough, but the sound had a strange weird effect on that place.'
After I read all that I felt very sorry for Troy, despite having seen him as a potential bad boy! Of course, I felt sorry for Fanny too because she had clearly taken his words of affection seriously but at this stage of the novel, my sympathies were more with Troy, my sympathies for Fanny come later.
Christopher wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "You are correct that he did wait for Fanny at the church; but then he essentially casts all of that goodwill away in what almost turns out to be an almost schad..."Well, Chris, possibly not the next day for he was quite embarrassed and hurt and he needed for his anger to calm down. One would have expected him to cool off and then seek out Fanny and re visit the marriage aspect. He didn't and that seemed to be pivotal in what proceeds in the novel. (but you are very sweet in saying that that would not be your attitude!)
Well, there are several issues involved here in the situation of Troy waiting at the church. Whether we have read ahead into the novel or not, many of us realize that Troy has made promises to Fanny (accompanied by intimacy or not). Fanny, a poor young woman, has become dependent enough on these promises that she has followed him to Casterbridge (right?) and is innocently hoping he will follow through. She is a woman alone and friendless in this town -- if anyone might be suffering humiliation and titters and stares at this time, it is darn well probably poor Fanny, as it is obvious to the townspeople that she is a poor young girl probably chasing a pipedream.So to compare the struggle, fear and humiliation of Fanny to that of a few laughs and stares Troy faces in the church is a very uneven comparison. He is a man in uniform, he can proudly walk straight back to his unit and forget the whole thing (hmmm). And where will Fanny go -- the workhouse actually.
So the situation goes beyond that Fanny didn't make it to the church on time. Why I see it as a huge strike against his character is that as a human being, he lets his frustration at being embarrassed in public (by strangers actually) become an excuse for not standing by Fanny. Look at this on a universal level -Throughout our entire lives, we have to make those same choices - we all have to face some embarrassment and stares in public -- do we handle it with maturity and honor or do we not?
As Gabriel first asks Boldwood in Chapter 15, "What sort of man is this Sergeant Troy?" His answer, "I'm afraid not one to build much hope upon.." I agree with him totally.
I realize we will probably all continue to be divided on this character, but I do believe Christopher's opinion to be worth more than tuppence!
Everyman, in a posting above, you referred to Fanny and Troy's situation as "She was a servant, he's an army officer from the same village or area..." True, in part. Frank Troy is actually a Sergeant, a non-commissioned officer. I'll bet this is intentional on Hardy's part too. Had Frank been of a legitimate birth and the heir of a Peer (I believe) he'd probably have been either commissioned as an officer, or even able to purchase it. And I'll bet that this sticks in his craw too?
Paula wrote: "Everyman wrote: "(being mindful as Paula reminds us to keep it as clean as possible) ..."I don't know how to adequately express what I mean here. Obviously there will be sexual references, and we..."
I was mostly kidding. But I do think there's a way of discussing sexual references in a more circumspect than graphic way.
I remember a book discussion in another forum on D.H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover. I don't think I'm overly prudish, but I found the language unnecessarily crude and said so, for which several posters took me severely to task. So maybe I'm not the best person to judge.
Paula wrote: "But you wouldn't expect anyone to go into great detail about the color red and its importance to the Anlo-Ewe people of Ghana, right? "Okay, now you've piqued all our interests. Just what IS the importance of the color red to the Anlo-Ewe people of Ghana? If it's too much off topic here, perhaps you could respond in the general comments thread. Inquiring Minds Want To Know!!!
Thanks, E-man. I fear I will stifle great conversation, but perhaps you put it best - discussions of sexual reference are fitting and often important to book discussions, but don't need to get graphic (this is a general statement, not a slight on anyone's previous comments). PS - I started reading FFtMC last night for the double benefit of enjoying a great book, and for starting to have a clue as to what is going on in the discussion :)
Sandybanks wrote: I don't have that missing chapter in my Penguin edition, so my impression of Troy's character is extremely negative. I wish that they had included this missing chapter because it explains Troy's behavior in the later part of the book. "If you haven't already found it elsewhere, here it is.
http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/26/55/...
This chapter (if it's included) makes Troy just a little bit more honourable than he would otherwise appear - I agree with Everyman, he doesn't strike me as being totally committed to Fanny. She may have persuaded him to do so (would it have been taken as a virtual promise of marriage if you had a sexual relationship with a women?) There is no doubt (in my mind) he would have been unfaithful and continued to conduct himself in much the same way as ever he did.
Paula wrote: "Thanks, E-man. I fear I will stifle great conversation, but perhaps you put it best - discussions of sexual reference are fitting and often important to book discussions, but don't need to get grap..."I agree. I suppose that's a good guideline for that sort of discussion --- which will be inevitable because of the book's subject matter.
Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: I don't have that missing chapter in my Penguin edition, so my impression of Troy's character is extremely negative. I wish that they had included this missing chapter because it ..."Thanks! I'll look it up --- maybe it will change my opinion about Sgt. Troy, or not.
Everyman wrote: "(being mindful as Paula reminds us to keep it as clean as possible) ..."Paula wrote: I don't know how to adequately express what I mean here. Obviously there will be sexual refe..."
LOL Everyman, I remember that conversation well. The thing was though that it was the author being crude/rude and not the posters, although I remember one poster who was amusingly so! The difference was that we did discuss the novel's language and graphic words were used because there are graphic words in Lawrence. In Hardy there are no graphic words as such, but as Chris and yourself have pointed out, there are graphic descriptions which, as with Lawrence, bear discussion because they are important to the novel. Important to the authors too because both of them were censored by their public, which, in Hardy's case, is a great irony considering what is happening here 150 years later! (Jude the Obscure was called Jude the Obscene by Victorians so we'd better not discuss that one!) BTW Lawrence was a great admirer of Hardy, who broke this new sexual ground before him.
Vis a vis Troy and Fanny: Later chapters may make folks think again but right now I still think that Troy has some high ground on which he can stand and Fanny had a friend in Bathsheba and the villagers who searched for her, did she but know it.
MadgeUK wrote: "Everyman wrote: "(being mindful as Paula reminds us to keep it as clean as possible) ..."Paula wrote: I don't know how to adequately express what I mean here. Obviously there will be sexual refe...."
You could not have said it better, Madge. My thoughts exactly. As I said above (way up there, I fear), I reserve my right to revisit the 'likeable' Sgt. Troy issue again as we move ahead.
Oh, and don't I wish that at some point we could all read and discuss "Jude the Obscure" here. One of the monumental books of the past two-hundred years, in my humble opinion. A lifetime could easily be spent in studying and pondering that beautiful novel.
And for any who are interested, as Madge has mentioned, D.H. Lawrence was profoundly influenced by Thomas Hardy's fiction and poetry, and in 1914 he wrote a "Study of Thomas Hardy and Other Essays." For students of Hardy and Lawrence, this essay is great reading.
Christopher wrote: "And for any who are interested, as Madge has mentioned, D.H. Lawrence was profoundly influenced by Thomas Hardy's fiction and poetry, and in 1914 he wrote a "Study of Thomas Hardy and Other Essays." For students of Hardy and Lawrence, this essay is great reading. "Unfortunately, I've not found the essay on line, even though it should be out of copyright by now -- maybe one of our intrepid expert researches, Madge or Laurel, can find a copy.
But I did find an essay on the essay, which contained this interesting passage:
"In the September 5 letter to Pinker, Lawrence himself acknowledges that the work on Hardy “will be about anything but Thomas Hardy,” and, the Study discusses its namesake only in chapters 3, 5, and 9; nevertheless, his selection of Hardy, and his highly imaginative interpretation of his novels, tells us much about the concerns that animate this work. At first, Hardy seems to have attracted Lawrence’s attention because so many of his characters “burst” — again, like the poppy or the phoenix—out of the confines of society, into individuality. For Lawrence, this self-realization leads directly to their tragedy: “How to live in [‘the great self-preservation system’:] after bursting out of it was the problem these Wessex people found themselves faced with. And they never solved the problem.""
The source:
http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wi...
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "And for any who are interested, as Madge has mentioned, D.H. Lawrence was profoundly influenced by Thomas Hardy's fiction and poetry, and in 1914 he wrote a "Study of Thomas Har..." Seems we face the same problem today, except in reverse, perhaps. Now to be reserved, chaste and evenly tempered is considered odd. And we still haven't solved the problem - we've only created a pendulum.
Everyman wrote: "But I did find an essay on the essay......"Great find Everyman, Thanks. I don't have Lawrence's essay but it is quoted widely by other critics and there are references to it in the Notes of other books I have by both Lawrence and Hardy. Lawrence was concerned with reality, describing things as they were not pussyfooting around them, as had become the case with the Victorians and Edwardians (Restorian novelists were much more direct - think of Tom Jones.) Hardy was early into that genre of writing although, of course, he was far less graphic than Lawrence, who sought to break another mould. Lawrence's description of male genitalia in Lady Chatterley was, for instance, much more graphic than the description of female genitalia in FFTMC pointed out by Chris. And, of course, following in this tradition, there are modern novels which are even more graphic.
Yes, the pendulum seems to have swung nearly over to the other side but I think things will go even further before there is a reaction and literature and people again become more 'chaste'. I anticipate full nudity on the streets and on TV, instead of just bosoms and b**s, before that happens!:O:O
Let's get back to the novel:).In Chapter 29, following the rude ferns:), we have Bathsheba and Gabriel having a quarrel about Bathsheba's infatuation with Troy. The smitten Bathsehaba defends him but Gabriel (like Chris:)) believes him to 'have no conscience at all' and asks Bathsheba to be 'more discreet in [her:] bearing towards this soldier'. So in a hissy-fit she sacks Gabriel - another example of her youth and folly. However, in Chapter 30, aptly named Hot Cheeks and Tearful Eyes she feels so abashed by Gabriel's criticism of her actions towards Boldwood, that she writes to him saying that she could not marry him. She then hears a 'greek chorus' of women in the kitchen also criticising her paramour - Hardy is underlining her folly. Liddy is so upset by Bathsheba's harsh reaction to this gossip that she resigns and then is forgiven!
(Chapters 30 and 31 references should perhaps be on the Part 4 thread but as they relate to the quarrel in Chapter 29 I will leave them here.)
Chapter 31 Blame - Fury, starts with a welcome breather from all this emotional cufuffle between people when Hardy gives one of his beautiful descriptions of the peace of the countryside:-
'[Bathsheba:] went out of the house just at the close of a timely thunder-shower, which had refined the air, and daintily bathed the coat of the land, though all beneath was dry as ever. Freshness was exhaled in an essence from the varied contours of bank and hollow, as if the earth breathed maiden breath and the pleased birds were hymning to the scene. Before her, among the clouds, there was a contrast in the shape of lairs of fierce light which showed themselves in the neighbourhood of a hidden sun, lingering on to the farthest northwest corner of the heavens that this midsummer season allowed.'
In other words, by writing the letter Bathsheba had a lucky escape from one man but will she have the equal good sense to break loose from another?
This chapter, after another emotional scene where Boldwood threatens to harm Troy, ends with a a powerful description of the distraught Bathsheba thinking about how she can protect her lover: 'With almost a morbid dread of being thought a gushing girl, this guideless woman too well concealed from the world under a manner of carelessness the warm depth of her strong emotions'. She was utterly distracted, sobbing brokenly and this time there was no peace as 'above the dark margin of the earth appeared foreshores and promontories of coppery cloud...Amaranthine glosses came over them then, and the unresting world wheeled her round to a contrasting prospect eastward, in the shape of indecisive and palpitating stars.'
(NB: An amaranth is deep purple-red and is used to denote something which is everlasting and beautiful. Eastward may mean towards Jerusalem and her salvation, if she did but look for it.)
There has been sympathy expressed for the friendless Fanny and her crush on Troy but she at least had the support of her fellow servants and the villagers. Bathsheba, as an female employer sensibly seeking to distance herself from her employees, even Gabriel, is, I think, much lonelier, 'guideless' as Hardy says, and deserving of our sympathy here.
I don't disagree at all with anything you've said here, Everyman. You're correct about that statement describing him too. Maybe I am a wee bit hard on him, and I shall endeavor to further explain myself at the appropriate time (so, hold that thought). You are correct that he did wait for Fanny at the church; but then he essentially casts all of that goodwill away in what almost turns out to be an almost schadenfreude moment for him when she comes hustling up out of breath. Just my tuppence, of course.