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"Far From the Madding Crowd" Part 3: Chapters XXI-XXIX
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Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.)
(last edited Aug 03, 2010 09:42PM)
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Jul 30, 2010 12:00PM
This is the thread that has been created for the discussion of Part 3 (Week 3) of Thomas Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd." Be aware that you may encounter SPOILERS in this discussion thread if you are still reading in the preceding section(s).
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I thought it interesting to note what Hardy says of Oak in Ch. 22. He describes him as being "happy in that he was not over happy." Then later he goes on to describe Oak as having a "dim and temperate bliss." I wrote this down immediately since it struck me that the words dim and temperate are not words that are usually used in association with bliss.
That note proved useful later as it stands in direct contrast with what is said of Boldwood in Ch.23. There he says that Boldwood has what Keats calls a "too happy happiness."
This definitely appears to be foreshadowing, especially in light of what we now know of Bathsheba and Troy.
That note proved useful later as it stands in direct contrast with what is said of Boldwood in Ch.23. There he says that Boldwood has what Keats calls a "too happy happiness."
This definitely appears to be foreshadowing, especially in light of what we now know of Bathsheba and Troy.
Gabriel also demonstrates in this section that his care and concern for Bathsheba is genuine. In Ch. 22 we learn that he was "inwardly convinced" that Bathsheba would accept Boldwood but his affection for her remained constant.
At the end of Ch. 29, Gabriel tries to warn Bathsheba about Troy. It seems that he'd rather see her end up with Boldwood (and states that this is what everyone expects will happen) than to instead fall in the hands of Troy, and he admonishes Bathsheba not to trust Troy.
His concern seems almost parental and her response is similar to one that a person might have towards a parent in that she outwardly rebels against his advice but privately respects what he's said. I think it's also telling that Hardy says that Oak's fidelity was "shown in his tone even more than in his words." This is another indication of Oak's sincerity and I can't help but think that it is meant to contrast with Troy who says all the right things that tickle Bathsheba's ears but if she would look beyond the mere words she'd realize that he was insincere.
At the end of Ch. 29, Gabriel tries to warn Bathsheba about Troy. It seems that he'd rather see her end up with Boldwood (and states that this is what everyone expects will happen) than to instead fall in the hands of Troy, and he admonishes Bathsheba not to trust Troy.
His concern seems almost parental and her response is similar to one that a person might have towards a parent in that she outwardly rebels against his advice but privately respects what he's said. I think it's also telling that Hardy says that Oak's fidelity was "shown in his tone even more than in his words." This is another indication of Oak's sincerity and I can't help but think that it is meant to contrast with Troy who says all the right things that tickle Bathsheba's ears but if she would look beyond the mere words she'd realize that he was insincere.
Nicki wrote: "[Gabriel's:] concern seems almost parental and her response is similar to one that a person might have towards a parent in that she outwardly rebels against his advice but privately respects what he's said. "I like that way of looking at it. He's a bit older than her in years, but a lot older in maturity.
MadgeUK wrote: "Although we do not learn much about Bathsheba's former life or education in FFTMC I think we can assume that she was brought up like most 'genteel' women of her period, to be an ultra-feminine and docile wife. "Perhaps. But on the other hand, that's a bit hard to mesh with her knowing how to milk cows, argue over the proper toll with a tollkeeper, ride a horse not sidesaddle, know how to raise a baby lamb, know how dangerous it is to close the slides in a shepherd's hut, and other activities which suggest to me that she was raised more in a country, almost a tomboy, than a genteel lifestyle.
Did anyone catch Hardy first use of "Wessex" in Chapter XXII? In all of his writings, it was used here first.Another interesting little tidbit--Remember when Sgt. Troy and Bathsheba are 'entangled on the bridle path at night? The first time that Bathsheba actually sees Troy he is illuminated with 'artificial' light--'false' light. Kind of telling isn't it?
In Chapter XXVI, 'Scene on the Verge of the Hay-Mead,' when Sgt. Troy is talking to Bathsheba in the field, Hardy gives us another strong indication of Troy's overall character with
"The careless sergeant smiled within himself, and probably too the devil smiled from a loop-hole in Tophet, for the moment was the turning point of a career."Hardy is warning us, in my opinion, of the danger that Troy poses. "Tophet" was, according to the Bible, a place where human sacrifices were conducted near Jerusalem, and is a synonym for Hell.
I also found Bathsheba's quiet murmuring to herself in the last sentence of chapter XXVI fascinating
"O, what have I done! What does it mean! I wish I knew how much of it was true!"It seems, to me, that Bathsheba is partly horrified, partly skeptical, and a major part of her is absolutely captivated and enraptured.
Chapter XXVIII, "The Hollow Amid the Ferns," is an intensely intriguing chapter, and is absolutely loaded with quite graphic imagery, in my opinion. I truly hope (and do not intend to) that I not offend anybody, but I believe that it simply must be said--Hardy's description of the hollow surrounded by the ferns is telling--
"The pit was a saucer-shaped concave, naturally formed, with a top diameter of about thirty-feet, and shallow enough to allow the sunshine to reach their heads. Standing in the centre, the sky overhead was met by a circular horizon of fern: this grew nearly to the bottom of the slope and then abruptly ceased. The middle within the belt of verdure was floored with a thick flossy carpet of moss and grass intermingled, so yielding that the foot was half-buried within it."Call me crazy, but I believe that Hardy has placed Bathsheba and Frank Troy in a large natural feature that resembles the female genitalia.
With this image in place, Hardy then has Troy conduct his erotic sword-dance, the aurora militaris (clever play on words with the shimmering borealis). In my humble opinion, it is during this scene that Frank Troy 'makes love' to Bathsheba; in essence, 'consummates' the 'marriage.' I think Bathsheba thinks so too--"It had brought upon her a stroke resulting, as did that of Moses in Horeb, in a liquid stream--here a stream of tears. She felt like one who has sinned a great sin."
Christopher wrote: "With this image in place, Hardy then has Troy conduct his erotic sword-dance, the aurora militaris (clever play on words with the shimmering borealis). In my humble opinion, it is during this scene that Frank Troy 'makes love' to Bathsheba; in essence, 'consummates' the 'marriage.'"Oh, most definitely. The sword seems clearly a stand-in for the male organ as he captivates and delights her with its previously unknown (to her) motions.
Even countrywomen could be brought up in a 'well bred' way Everyman, they were not all hoydens:).
MadgeUK wrote: "Even countrywomen could be brought up in a 'well bred' way Everyman, they were not all hoydens:)."Well, given the way she acts and the definition of a hoyden as "A high-spirited, boisterous, or saucy girl," that doesn't seem all that far from the Bathsheba we see. Boisterous perhaps no, but high-spirited and saucy, yes.
I'm not so sure that country women experienced in milking cows and riding horses astride would be generally considered genteel, which was the term you used.
But the real question is, given as you said the lack of information about her background, but given the things we know about her, can we really, as you suggested, "assume that she was brought up like most 'genteel' women of her period, to be an ultra-feminine and docile wife"? From my reading of the text that's not a very safe assumption; her behaviour hardly seems to me to suggest a genteel and ultra-feminine woman, and she certainly didn't seem docile when dealing in the business world or sending out the valentine.
But since we don't know for sure, we're both free to assume what we want to about her background.
For all we know, after all, as long as we're making assumptions, we are free to assume that she may even have been a by-blow from a member of the royal family.
I meant to look this up earlier because I was basing my assumptions upon it: We are told by Smallbury in Chapter 8 that Bathsheba's parents were 'townsfolk' and that her father 'were of a higher circle of life...a gentleman tailor really, worth scores of pounds. And he became a very celebrated bankrupt two or three times....he was quite godly in his later years'. So I still think it is likely she was brought up in a genteel manner. It appears from Chapter 10 when she says 'I don't yet know my powers or my talents in farming' that she had no background in farming other than visiting her uncle at the farm, which is where she 'heard him tell his shepherd not to go to sleep without leaving a side door open' and so had the good sense to save Gabriel in Chapter 3. In Chapter 4 we learned from Mrs Hurst that she was 'an excellent scholar..she was going to be a governess once, you know, only she was too wild', so yes it seems she was a bit of a hoyden but a well educated, genteel one:). I don't think she was an ultra-feminine or docile woman - her behaviour certainly denies that - but she would have been brought to be like one because that was how women were educated at that time. Later events will, I think, bear me out on this and I think that Hardy is trying to illustrate the changes which take place in her character.
"Call me crazy, but I believe that Hardy has placed Bathsheba and Frank Troy in a large natural feature that resembles the female genitalia.With this image in place, Hardy then has Troy conduct his erotic sword-dance, the aurora militaris (clever play on words with the shimmering borealis). In my humble opinion, it is during this scene that Frank Troy 'makes love' to Bathsheba; in essence, 'consummates' the 'marriage.' I think Bathsheba thinks so too--"It had brought upon her a stroke resulting, as did that of Moses in Horeb, in a liquid stream--here a stream of tears. She felt like one who has sinned a great sin.'"
I think there are some things that are better left in the mind of the reader and this is probably one of them. I also believe that while pondering all these points that there is something lost about the actual storyline. The beauty of Hardy's writing and the story he set out to tell can be overanalyzed and thus the main idea, the story is lost among the elements. I want to enjoy the words and bring to it and from it my ideas and my concepts.
Since none of us are Mr. Hardy reincarnate or I don't think any of us are channeling him, none of us really know what went on in his mind as he wrote this lovely tale of love gained and lost.
Marialyce wrote: "I want to enjoy the words and bring to it and from it my ideas and my concepts...Why the bold letters? We are discussing and analysing the novel here and so the ideas and concepts of others are bound to be brought up. It also assists those who may have missed certain inferences to interpret the novel in different ways.
Hardy did not just write simple stories, like Harlequin romances, we know from his editors and from his Autobiography that he did intend deeper meanings and that he was making social statements, particularly statements about women's lives and sexuality. He gave up novel writing because of prudish criticism by the Victorian public so I hope we won't get any prudery here.
MadgeUK wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I want to enjoy the words and bring to it and from it my ideas and my concepts...Why the bold letters? We are discussing and analysing the novel here and so the ideas and conc..."
I am not saying he wrote Harlequin romances. Why do you take it as so? I am just saying that you have chased more people away from enjoying Hardy, the author, than you have attracted by the over analyzation of this novel, Surely, you wish to attract readership not drive them away.
I also resent that every time I have something to say that does not jive with what the rest think, I am ostracized from the supposed conversation and called to task by my comments.
This is a public forum and I am allowed and encouraged to say what I think. The fact that you has responded so has made that statement false.
Of course you can say what you think and you have done so eloquently. I am sorry that you think my analysis of the novel drives people away but it was my understanding that this was what we were here for and what the Moderator, Christopher, was encouraging by his own posts. If not, I guess he will tell me so and I will desist.There are a lot of so-called book clubs on the internet which have very little analysis and much trivial comment about what people 'like' or 'dislike'. I have found Goodreads refreshingly different in this respect and have been delighted by the intelligent, in depth analysis by readers here and in other GR discussions. But of course other people may think differently and may agree with you. I tend to use this kind of analysis because it is a method I learned at school/university. I also like to add 'local colour' because that too was something I learned to do long ago.
Okay, okay, this is all my fault; and I take full responsibility for it. First, let me say that I very much want both Marialyce and Madge to continue with this discussion of the novel. Your ideas, input, and observations are incredibly valuable contributions to the discussion. Second, I must confess that I did have a momentary twinge about posting that description of the scene in the vale surrounded by the ferns, but I truly felt that it was an important observation and well-worth discussing.I have really come to appreciate the subtlety and impact of Thomas Hardy's writing, and simply hoped that we could have discussions of the novel along those lines here. Madge is right in the respect that far too many 'group discussions' of books don't even scratch the surface of authorial intent. Marialyce, you are correct in that this is not an upper-division class in "The Use of Sexual Imagery by Thomas Hardy." I had hoped, and continue to hope, that we could strike a balance: enjoy Hardy's beautiful novel, and explore some of the elements and aspects that make it so. My goal with this discussion, while perhaps selfish, is to to learn as much about this novel and Thomas Hardy the author as possible. And I have to say that I have learned ever-so-much already from each and every one of you!
To date, it is my perception that we have had a lively and spirited discussion; and I would like to keep it so. I apologize, personally, to you, Marialyce, for offending you; I certainly did not intend to, but can now see that I did. And please do continue to participate, your opinion is indeed very much valued. The same goes for you, Madge; you have no idea how much you have contributed to the discussion so far. You have truly put your heart-and-soul into the discussion, and it shows.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
Please, please forgive me, everyone.
Chris
Please know, Chris, that I was not offended by your reference. It was just the straw the broke the camel's back so to speak. I appreciate what you are doing both here and in the novel discussion. I just think, one needs to be a bit more tolerant and accepting of those of us who are not Hardy experts. We want to read the story, be part of the story, exalt in his words which I think is probably the goal of all here.If we are here in this, it is because we want to expand our interests which bottom line is the reading of the story.
Thank you, Chris for the apology, but know it was not your quote that made me upset or uncomfortable. It has been a number of things.
Marialyce
Marialyce wrote: "Please know, Chris, that I was not offended by your reference. It was just the straw the broke the camel's back so to speak. I appreciate what you are doing both here and in the novel discussion. I..."Marialyce, thank you for that. Fair enough! I am confident that we can all work together to ensure that each and every participant can have a satisfying and enriching experience reading and discussing this beautiful novel. I very much appreciate the feedback from all of you! Cheers!
I think I'll just stick to Paradise Lost and avoid Victorians:(.
Just thought I'd throw this out there - as someone who's not terribly well read when it comes to the Victorian era, I'm grateful for the analysis and research done by other participants here. I find that it makes my reading experience more enjoyable - not less.
People read and discuss for a variety of different reasons. Some might want to discuss a novel to give their impressions and opinions while others might want to discuss a novel from a historical/cultural perspective. Both are worthy motivations for discussion and I think there is a place for both here.
By the same token, some readers may only want to gain an overall perspective while others might want to delve into the nitty gritty details. I don't think one approach has to be adopted at the exclusion of the other. If there are elements of the discussion that aren't of interest - it's easy to just scroll past it and read on. Personally, I hope that comments aren't discouraged on either end of the spectrum.
People read and discuss for a variety of different reasons. Some might want to discuss a novel to give their impressions and opinions while others might want to discuss a novel from a historical/cultural perspective. Both are worthy motivations for discussion and I think there is a place for both here.
By the same token, some readers may only want to gain an overall perspective while others might want to delve into the nitty gritty details. I don't think one approach has to be adopted at the exclusion of the other. If there are elements of the discussion that aren't of interest - it's easy to just scroll past it and read on. Personally, I hope that comments aren't discouraged on either end of the spectrum.
Chris and everyone,I just noticed something within the passage that has become controversial in our discussion today -- it does seem to reflect at least a sensual atmosphere as has been pointed out, but at one point Bathsheba believes that Troy is about to kill her as the sword goes to her breast. This seems to make this passage forewarn harm, pain, destruction of some kind. Of course, this tone soon passes as she is "overcome with a hundred tumultuous feelings..." (Chapter 28)
I also wanted to comment on the language in Chapter 22. I think we have already spoken of the theme within this writing.. Gabriel "with a pharisaical sense that he was not as other shearers..." and Bathesheba "annointing him above his fellows." I like this religious language.And I mentioned this to Madge in the other thread I believe: Henery opposed to Bathsheba marrying Boldwood because she was a bold woman on her own had no need for a home..."tis keeping another woman out...tis a pity he and she should trouble two houses." Wise Henery.
Sarah wrote: "Chris and everyone,I just noticed something within the passage that has become controversial in our discussion today -- it does seem to reflect at least a sensual atmosphere as has been pointed o..."
You are absolutely correct, Sarah. That example, and then when she finds out precisely how sharp the blade is when Troy severs a lock of her hair. For such a short chapter it is truly 'loaded,' isn't it?
Yes, Chris I would say it is a filled chapter. And funny you should mention that because a few of the preceding chapters when she first meets Troy, etc. seem more slight. I noticed that as I was reading back through.
Christopher wrote: I must confess that I did have a momentary twinge about posting that description of the scene in the vale surrounded by the ferns, but I truly felt that it was an important observation and well-worth discussing."I, for one, am glad you did post it. If some people didn't want to discuss it, that's fine, they can just move on. There are some points raised that I find not of particular interest, and I just skim them and move on.
I do appreciate digging into novels in some depth, which at times may mean finding aspects or interpretations which may or may not have been in the author's mind. Whether Hardy consciously had this in mind in writing of the incident I don't know, but it's clear that he went to some length in describing the location in depth, and it's reasonable to think that he might have had more in mind than just a meaningless location. Hardy was famous for using physical elements to represent forces in his novels (the classic being the use of Stonehenge at the end of Tess, but there are tons of them), and whenever he takes the time to go into considerable depth over a location or situation I pay close attention. (A swamp will show up later in the novel which may also raise the question why he chose to write that particular episode in close relation to a swamp.)
At any rate, Chris, please don't apologize for your comment, but keep them coming.
MadgeUK wrote: "I think I'll just stick to Paradise Lost and avoid Victorians:(."Oh, you can get in just as much trouble there, too, you know!
Christopher wrote: "You are absolutely correct, Sarah. That example, and then when she finds out precisely how sharp the blade is when Troy severs a lock of her hair. For such a short chapter it is truly 'loaded,' isn't it? "Keep that lock of hair in mind as we read on, folks!
Nicki wrote: "Just thought I'd throw this out there - as someone who's not terribly well read when it comes to the Victorian era, I'm grateful for the analysis and research done by other participants here. I fi..."I agree. I haven't joined the discussion here so far, but I have been reading the comments with interest. This is only my second Hardy, so I greatly appreciate comments from Chris and others who have read and studied Hardy more. If there are symbolisms or hidden sexual imageries in the book, I would like to hear about them!
Christopher wrote: "Did anyone catch Hardy first use of "Wessex" in Chapter XXII? In all of his writings, it was used here first.Another interesting little tidbit--Remember when Sgt. Troy and Bathsheba are 'entangl..."
Chris, your analysis of the "hollow surrounded by ferns" and Troy's sword dance is fascinating. May I know if it is just your personal interpretation, or if it is supported by something that you have read about Hardy? Is there any notes or letters of his that suggest that this is indeed what he meant when he wrote those scenes?
Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I think I'll just stick to Paradise Lost and avoid Victorians:(."Oh, you can get in just as much trouble there, too, you know! "
Yes, but it's nicer trouble in Paradise, far from the Maddened Crowd:D:D
SPOILER - dont look! Chris - the chapter I referred to above where Bathsheba 'reveals all' to Gabriel is Chapter 37, towards the end.
Sandybanks wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Did anyone catch Hardy first use of "Wessex" in Chapter XXII? In all of his writings, it was used here first.Another interesting little tidbit--Remember when Sgt. Troy and Ba..."
Sandybanks, it actually first came up in a conversation about the novel with a friend of mine almost two years ago, we had both picked up on it; but it is my understanding that it is a fairly common-knowledge interpretation of that particular scene. I can't specifically recall whether Rosemarie Morgan mentioned it in her chapter on 'Bathsheba Everdene' in her book, "Women and Sexulaity in the Novels of Thomas Hardy." I'll check tonight, Sandybanks, and leave the answer here in the thread. Cheers! Chris
MadgeUK wrote: "SPOILER - dont look! Chris - the chapter I referred to above where Bathsheba 'reveals all' to Gabriel is Chapter 37, towards the end."
Thanks, Madge, for the reference to Ch. 37; I do remember that discussion now that you mention. I'll go have a look. Cheers! Chris
Don't read if you don't like analysis!Chapter 29, after The Hollow Amid the Fern so excellently described by Chris above, is described as Particulars of a Twilight Walk which is significant because one definition of twilight is a 'condition or period of gradual decline following full development, achievement, glory etc.' The chapter begins:-
'We now see the element of folly distinctly mingling with the many varying particulars which made up the character of Bathsheba Everdene. It was almost foreign to her intrinsic nature. Introduced as lymph on the dart of Eros, it eventually permeated and coloured her whole constitution. Bathsheba, though she had too much understanding to be entirely governed by her womanliness, had too much womanliness to use her understanding to the best advantage. Perhaps in no minor point does woman astonish her helpmate more than in the strange power she possesses of believing cajoleries that she knows to be false -- except, indeed, in that of being utterly sceptical on strictures that she knows to be true.......Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance. When a strong woman recklessly throws away her strength she is worse than a weak woman who has never had any strength to throw away. One source of her inadequacy is the novelty of the occasion. She has never had practice in making the best of such a condition. Weakness is doubly weak by being new.'
Hardy is pointing out to his readers how Bathsheba, the strong independent woman of earlier chapters, who refused marriage to two possibly better men, 'fell' for Troy but 'was not conscious of guile in this matter' because, although she was a fairly worldy woman from the daylight world of coteries and green carpets...where a quiet family of rabbits or hares lives on the other side of your party wall', she knew 'but little, of fashionable society'.
Gabriel, six years older than Bathsheba and perhaps more worldly wise, saw Bathsheba's infatuation with Troy and cautioned her but she takes offence at this and dismisses him, once again showing the folly of youth.
Bathsheba has done what many women before and since have done - fallen for the 'man on the white charger', the mythical knight. Mary Wollstonecraft and probably Hardy too, would have argued that it was her education which predisposed her towards this. Brought up to see men as people who rescued them from spinsterhood, who protected and financed them, women were prone to fall for romantic idealisations of men like Troy, rather than the down to earth reality of men like Gabriel. We have yet to see whether the independent streak in Bathsheba, her hoyden-ness maybe, will rescue her from the 'twilight' her romanticism has got her into or whether she will become as 'fallen' as Tess and other Hardy heroines.
!! I was giving fair warning for those who don't like analysis - just as we give warnings about Spoilers.
Madge, per your message 36, I very much like that introduction to the chapter you quoted. However, I don't necessarily see it as her education, as you stated, that would have led B. to accepting this attachment to Troy. It seems that her "education" or influence in the setting of this story would just as likely have emphasized men like Gabriel to be the source of rescue and protection. And don't forget that toward the end of that same first passage from Chap 29, Hardy states, "Her love was entire as a child's." Meaning that acceptance of it could have been as much due to her immaturity as any societal persuasion.
I agree with your analysis, Sarah. She would have been attracted romantically to Gabriel. I keep on wondering why Troy. Was it because of the uniform and all that it stood for? There is certainly nothing in the text that I can see, that would account for this madly falling in love scenario we see.( a few stolen kisses, a few meetings) He overwhelms her, he charms her, he seduces her, but does he love her?Why does he want her so badly? Is it only a conquest for him? He loves Fanny and yet he drops her(doesn't even go searching for her when she disappears) and rushes into an involvement with B. He is fickle and a flirt and he draws B in like a spider into a web.
I'm not so sure Sarah. In that time, as well as in ours, there was a lot of romantic fiction which 'taught' women to look for the knight on the white charger and not solid, respectable men like Gabriel. Poetry especially was full of such images. And because women did not have such a broad education as we do, nor access to male friendships, they were more prone to fall for the Troys of this world. Later we shall see the novel take a Gothic turn and this too was a romantic genre in which Victorian women immersed themselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_...
Of course, I agree, it can be as much to do with Bathsheba's immaturity but I do not think that Hardy had just that in mind because we can see from his other novels that he took up certain positions about women's lives vis a vis their education and lack of sexual experience, just as George Eliot did. We also see from Jane Austen's earlier novels that she too obliquely ('with a fine brush') criticised women for making foolish choices about men. Emma was seen to have such romantic notions about Harriet Smith and Northanger Abbey in particular, was a send up of the Gothic novels and unrealistic romances of the day. In Pride & Prejudice a soldier like Troy elopes with a 15 year old. This is the pattern of the more serious authors of this period, when authors were pushing against 'the glass ceiling' on behalf of women.
I have just found my Claire Tomalin biography of Hardy - it wasn't in the loft after all!Looking up 'Bathsheba' I found that she is modelled on Hardy's Aunt Martha who was a 'lovely, spirited woman'. Tomalin comments: 'Some of his love for Emma [his wife:] is there in the writing, and you may wonder if he is offering her a picture of what he most admired in a woman; strength, high spirits, passion and the power to recover from setbacks and mistakes.' Bathsheba's dark eyes and hair, her carelessness about convention and being in charge of her own life, was not Emma however, and Hardy had cause to regret this as his marriage became increasingly unhappy and sexually unfulfilled.
The name 'Troy' was the name of his editor's dog: 'That is [to be:]the name of my wicked soldier hero' he caustically remarked when the dog barked at him. (One of my grand-daughters is named Troy and she is often teased for having a boy's name.)
FFMC was the: '...warmest and sunniest of his novels. He tells us that some of it was written out of doors, on scraps of slate, or stone, pieces of wood and even dead leaves, which is hard to imagine - how much can you write on a dead leaf? ...and the storm scene was actually written during a night of thunder and lightning.' (You can write quite a lot on a large maple leaf - I used to write stories on them and pretend they were written by fairies!!)
I certainly see what you are saying, Madge, and it may be true of many heroines in 18th century lit. However, if you must use Jane Austen's Lydia Bennet as an example, it might work more toward my point of the childish heroine rather than one influenced by chivalric reading -- I doubt Lydia would have read much, but she might just like the look of a handsome man in a well-cut uniform. Also, Emma Woodhouse was looking to a vicar and a spoiled young gentlemen to rescue Harriet Smith, not a heroic man on the white horse. Maybe the Austen stories aren't the best material to use in our discussion here. And per your message 41, you must be using the term "education" in varying ways. I am not saying that authors weren't pushing against the glass sailing by detailing the pitfalls of young women of that time. I just think that Bathsheba's experiences reflect more universally -- that humans, rather than just Victorian girls, make frivolous mistakes. She was unsure of herself, had already admitted her mistake of the Valentine, but still made the wrong turn with Troy. Inexperience and lack of guidance were more the factors.
The " knight on the white charger concept all depends on who is doing the looking, doesn't it? What is a knight to one person's mind is not necessarily that to another . Bathsheba could have just as easily seen Gabriel as her knight since he has literally rescued her on a number of occasions. Most of us know that women are too often attracted to the bad boy in the pack. This might be a better explanation for her attraction to Troy dismal as it is.
Marialyce wrote: "I agree with your analysis, Sarah. She would have been attracted romantically to Gabriel. I keep on wondering why Troy. Was it because of the uniform and all that it stood for? There is certainly n..."Marialyce, I think Troy was a player and without scruples. Most of his actions from this point of the story onward show this. Bathsheba let her guard down as young people do and he chose to take advantage. She was an unguarded young woman under no one's protection with property and respect in the village. And what did the townspeople say of him: a doctor's son by name and an earl's son by nature." (I love that line.) I think you have it right.
I think the modernization of today lends us to now say things such as my daughter, the lawyer or my son, the doctor. Times have changed the monikers we went by, but pride still remains the same. We are known by what we do, ("Oh, she is a teacher or he is an engineer"), how we act, what we say, not so very diverse from the time of Mr. Hardy. (What was I thinking here? Too early in the am and no coffee!)I feel for Bathsheba, now more than before. As you said, Sarah, she lets her guard down and falls for the unscrupulous Troy. The "bad boy" wins at least for now.
I wasn't sure of what you responded, Marialyce, but I was referring to Troy's background -- it was seemingly well-known that he was illegitimate. You probably got that but I wasn't sure.
I did, Sarah, thank you for responding to me. I was just referring to how people have and are often known from their backgrounds as were the people of Hardy's time. Sorry about not being too clear about that.
No apology necessary, I just wanted to make sure.
Could it be, Sarah, that Hardy's writing of this novel and its eventual outcome was a direct result of his love for Emma Gifford. I read he met her in 1870 and married her in 1874. (the same year that the novel was published) They became estranged, but ultimately, he was devastated by her death later on in 1912. Could Hardy's happiness at the time have influenced the tone of this novel?
Christopher wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Did anyone catch Hardy first use of "Wessex" in Chapter XXII? In all of his writings, it was used here first.Another interesting little tidbit--Remember wh..."
Thanks for the clarification, Chris. Was this interpretation also widely accepted during Hardy's times? Did the average reader of that time also pick up on it?
Marialyce wrote: "The " knight on the white charger concept all depends on who is doing the looking, doesn't it? What is a knight to one person's mind is not necessarily that to another . Bathsheba could have just ..."I don't think that Bathsheba regards Troy as a knight on the white charger; she simply finds him more attractive sexually than the homely Gabriel and the much older Boldwood. He is dashing and exciting in a dangerous way, and she couldn't help being attracted to him like a moth to a flame.
You don't think he was the answer to her dreams being a gallant soldier and all? He certainly could fulfill her dreams of the perfect mate, so charming , handsome and all. A women's main purpose was to marry and since there was no divorce at the time, I think that she saw Troy as an answer to that lifelong dilemma of who could provide the most exciting life for her. As I said previously, we, as women, are often attracted to the bad boys of the lot and surely Troy is a bad boy.
