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The Curse of the Mistwraith (Wars of Light and Shadow, #1)
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SERIES—List & Discussions > Wars of Light & Shadow--*SPOILER*Curse of the Mistwraith, complete story *SPOILER!*

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message 1: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments This is the 'jackrabbit' topic for anyone who's read THE COMPLETE VOLUME. Spoilers that will trash the surprises and thrash them with speculations will abound! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK! :)

Poster's Boundaries, please honor them:

1) UNCHECK the Add to my Update Feed box under the reply box, so your friends who've fallen for your recommendation aren't inadvertently spoiled.

2) MARK your posts "SPOILER" at the top and add a few lines before posting, just in case!

3) NO spoilers for any volume that follows, limit your comments to the contents of book I.

4) The Mods may delete any foot-in-mouth posts that slip past - politely, try not to add work for them; but if in heated excitement you miss the boundary, please don't be offended if action is taken in behalf of the other readers in progress.

Thank you. I hate rules - glad that's over with - fire away and have fun!

Thank you.
Have at it.


message 2: by Mawgojzeta (last edited Jul 23, 2010 09:19AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mawgojzeta | 178 comments SPOILERS

Finished last night.

One questions I had is, will Felirin the Scarlet make an appearance in later books, or did he serve his only purpose? It is really not a big deal, but a general curiosity - one scene he is present and then he is no longer there.


Dawn (breakofdawn) SPOILER


Yay, I can finally talk about the whole book! Wow. And now I'm at a loss for words.

One of the things I wondered throughout the entire book, was what Dakar's problem was with Arithon. He seemed to dislike him right from the start, and despite a lack of provocation from Arithon, his dislike just grew and grew. It makes me wonder if there is history behind that grudge, and interested to find out what it is (if there is one). Don't tell me if there is! I want to find out naturally, but that has just been one of my thoughts thus far.

The entire ending to the book broke my heart! I spent the whole book wondering what would happen to make the brother's hate each other. And then to find out it was a geas that neither had control over? Horrible! It makes me wonder how things might have been if the Mistwraith had been defeated cleanly.

Throughout the book I always disliked Lysaer, but I have to admit.. The scene where he used his bare hands to contain the Mistwraith, it was so brave, so unselfish. It almost redeemed him in my eyes. Would have, if he hadn't had to be affected by it.

Another thing I've been thinking about is the scene where Arithon and Lysaer are attached by the Mistwraith, and they first realize it is sentient. Something happens to Lysaer, and he passes out. When the Fellowship is talking about it later Sethvir says "My guess is our Teir's'Ilessid shows no sign of disparate change because the moment when tonight's damage shall manifest is still yet to come, and of a surety chosen most carefully." Could this initial contact have been something that later influenced Lysaer to use his hands to contain Desh-thiere, and thereby gave the Mistwraith access to possess Lysaer and set on course the events to come?

So much more to say, but I've already written my own novel here. So I'll wrap it up for now, although I'm sure I'll be back shortly with more... :-)


Dawn (breakofdawn) Mawgojzeta wrote: "SPOILERS

Finished last night.

One questions I had is, will Felirin the Scarlet make an appearance in later books, or did he serve his only purpose? It is really not a big deal, but a general ..."


When I first read this I could not for the life of my remember who Felirin was! I had to look it up in the glossary. I guess, for me, he was pretty forgettable.


message 5: by Jon (new) - added it

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Mawgojzeta wrote: "SPOILERS ... will Felirin the Scarlet make an appearance in later books."

The simple answer is 'Yes' :)


Mawgojzeta | 178 comments Jon: Thank you.

SPOILERS

The Felirin thing bugged me because I was quite a bit past the scene in the pub before I realized that it was not simply that Felirin had nothing to say, it was that he was no longer with the group!

Dawn: That curse is so sad.

I teetered on full-blown sobbing a few times. First gasp occurred when Steiven understands he will not survive the battle. Then from "Last Quarry" (follows XVII) with the first arrow to the little girl on and off through the end.

My impression is that Dakar initially disliked Arithon because he guessed it would be a s'Ilessid that came through the gate and find it was both a s'Ilessid and some servant/criminal-looking guy that Asandir choses to treat first in the cabin. Dakar questions that care because he does not realize Arithon is a s'Ffalenn. I think after that it just progressed based on little things.


message 7: by Christine (last edited Jul 23, 2010 12:48PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Christine (chrisarrow) Spoiler







I said over in one of the Chapters Spoiler threads that parts of the book made me think of Lear. In Lear you have the Bastard and the legitmate child. The Bastard disinherits the legitmate kid, tries to take his place. In some ways, the story of the two brothers is like that, but with the Bastard being the good guy. In Lear, the Bastard is the better character, not a good guy, but far more effective than his brother. You wish he was a good guy because he raises very important questions about legimate vs illegitmate.

What I liked best about the novel was the playing with types that Janny did. I just find myself wishing she had taken it a bit further. But that's my hang up. I'm an older sibling, and I get tired of all these stories were the older sibling is the bad sibling. I know its my hang up. It really is.


message 8: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Mawgojzeta wrote: "SPOILERS

Finished last night.

One questions I had is, will Felirin the Scarlet make an appearance in later books, or did he serve his only purpose? It is really not a big deal, but a general ..."


He will come back, yes, and Dawn, when he does, you won't forget, the story will pull that detail forward.


message 9: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Dawn wrote: "SPOILER


Yay, I can finally talk about the whole book! Wow. And now I'm at a loss for words.

One of the things I wondered throughout the entire book, was what Dakar's problem was with Arithon. He..."


It would be nearly inhuman not to speed ahead with this book, at some point...the ending is so intense, sometimes little stuff gets missed.


SPOILER!


When the discussion gets to the little scene where Dakar challenges the decisions made by the Fellowship, vis a vis, Lysaer, and Kharadmon gives answer - there are little points revealed, easy to miss in the rush of denouement. (This is the scene on Rockfell Peak, just prior to the Mistwraith's incarceration).


message 10: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Mawgojzeta wrote: "Jon: Thank you.

SPOILERS

The Felirin thing bugged me because I was quite a bit past the scene in the pub before I realized that it was not simply that Felirin had nothing to say, it was that he w..."


SPOILER -

Felirin was bound to Erdane, and asked to share company on the road that far; he had already separated from the party and was pretty much acting on his own as free singer at the Four Ravens. Interesting this took you by surprise, I've never seen a reader mention that before. It is so fascinating to see how different people relate to the same things on the page.

We create our own experiences, each journey individualized.


message 11: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Chris wrote: "Spoiler







I said over in one of the Chapters Spoiler threads that parts of the book made me think of Lear. In Lear you have the Bastard and the legitmate child. The Bastard disinheri..."


Chris - what an interesting take!

Older vs younger siblings - I TOO hate the general convention of the older as being evil...though it follows why a younger one might feel 'victimized' in childhood - the truth is other.

For this story - the whole question of 'bastardy' which has become so tangled with stigma - both by the way inheritance laws (used to work) and by dogmatic opinion...

Our 'real' society sets such weight and measure upon this.

SPOILERS !!


For the book - what was believed or policy on Dascen Elur DIFFERS - it's another set of measures altogether across the gate, as Halliron informs Arithon when he shelters with the clans.

The whole male concept of 'my progeny only' and marriage customs and laws - how things shifted to 'ensure' this - I had not truly meant to make the conventional statement in this regard - however, it came that way also because of Talera's marriage gift...the only way for her husband to 'collect' on her dowry was to sire her children and keep them in the royal family.

Certain things were arranged 'so' to get the story moving - not to create 'themes' in the larger sense of the word. It was essential for this book that the characters be related; of two royal lineages; and, have vastly different upbringings. The 'conventions' used to get the this mix - and specifically, the childhood influences, perhaps unintentionally seemed to carry too much weight.

As the story progresses you will see far deeper into the early experiences of both these characters, and older/younger bastard vs legitimate won't play nearly so fully as other influences upon their formative years.

Given that these half brothers are going to live a LONG time, the tiny difference in age is truly a moot point. So rest assured that the theme that bugs you won't be carried as a story issue.


message 12: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Mawgojzeta wrote: "Jon: Thank you.

SPOILERS

The Felirin thing bugged me because I was quite a bit past the scene in the pub before I realized that it was not simply that Felirin had nothing to say, it was that he w..."


SPOILER!

Dakar the wastrel, running from his responsibilities, busy ducking opportunity to take hold of his life - vs Arithon - trained to master at a VERY young age, and let's have you guess what other character traits may lay Dakar's hair the wrong way.

What would Arithon's character do for Dakar's self image?

Does the reason for a human dislike have to be direct 'they did this to me' - how do they make you FEEL - this book deals with introspective issues as well.

You may find clues in the scene where Dakar is conscious in a Fellowship Working to contain the meth-spawn from Athain Tower; and Arithon is asked to surrender all choice, and lay his trust into Dakar's hands.

For an in-depth read - these little bits contain lots of clues. Do you see any of your answers in that passage?


message 13: by Sandra (last edited Jul 24, 2010 01:28PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments SPOILERS!



Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt galled to no end that the Master should pass scatheless through a direct challenge of the Fellowship wishes." When Sethvir says he is misunderstanding, Dakar just assumes the Master has fooled Sethvir.

There's another quote that puzzles me a little: "The paradox that a spirit so exactingly controlled should vengefully surrender all that he was into jeopardy jabbed like insult." Why does it say 'vengefully'? I didn't read Arithon like that at all, although there's a passage that shows Arithon aware of Dakar's dismay and faintly smiling about it.

Then there's a passage that reveals Dakar's self loathing and his assumption that Arithon feels the same: "...the Master moved on to Dakar, and there read fatuous contempt, for why should any trained master lend a brother's trust to an apprentice who binged on beer to evade discipline?" And later, "Miserably conscious of his shortcomings, Dakar knotted clumsy hands and cursed Arithon for scheming arrogance."

He views Arithon as irresponsible in not wanting to shoulder the responsibility for Rathain's well being, and that would imply that he (like most of us) dislikes in others what he most dislikes about himself; his own irresponsibility in getting drunk to avoid painful feelings and only half attending to his sorcery lessons.


message 14: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt galled to no end that the Master should pass scatheless through ..."

That all makes a lot of sense. I guess I just overlook how Dakar might feel because it seems like, on the surface at least, Arithon is perfectly cordial with him. I kept expecting at some point for Dakar to get over his misconceptions and see Arithon as he truly was (or presented himself to be at least), but he never did. And adding to it, I couldn't understand how he could blindly like Lysaer so much and yet still carry his grudge against Arithon. But I guess in the end it all comes down to Dakar himself, and his core personality. I think your last sentence, and disliking in others what we most dislike in ourselves, makes the most sense. Consider me enlightened, lol :)


Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments SPOILERS!



I'm having a more intense emotional response to the ending of the book than I did first time through. Maybe it's because I know what's coming, but I hate Lysaer and his actions in killing children, I hate the blaming of Arithon for Etarra's attack on the clansmen when Arithon did nothing to provoke Lysaer's attack in the square at Etarra, or the subsequent full blown battle. A poignant moment when Lysaer sees his own mistakes and how he was wrong, but it's shortly overshadowed by his continuing 'mistakes' if that's what you call them. But the butchery of women and children, the snake qualities of the butcher Pesquil, all the death just wrings my heart. And then when Arithon sings their passage to the next world, I was just undone.

I found myself laying the book aside constantly and doing other things. Then being drawn irresistibly back to cry some more.


message 16: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Dawn wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt galled to no end that the Master should ..."

Why do you think Dakar preferred Lysaer - was this an arbitrary decision, or a well founded choice?


message 17: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "SPOILERS!



I'm having a more intense emotional response to the ending of the book than I did first time through. Maybe it's because I know what's coming, but I hate Lysaer and his actions in kil..."


What did you think about the change in Caolle?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments The change in Caolle didn't surprise me much. It's obvious Caolle is a fair man, if hard bitten, and since Arithon proved his mettle, I'm not at all surprised Caolle came around.

As to why Dakar liked Lysaer, Lysaer is a likable guy! He's tall handsome and charming. Dakar was only expecting a s'Ilessid, not a s'Ffalenn, Lysaer is always polite and minds his manners; Arithon doesn't give a damn what people think of him; Lysaer is outgoing and extroverted, Arithon is introverted and secretive. He acts like a prince and Arithon doesn't.


message 19: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt galled to no end that the M..."

That's something I still haven't figured out. I guess maybe just first impressions? Lysaer was your typical golden hero type, while Arithon was more the sneaky thief type. So Dakar preferred Lysaer right from the beginning. And then after Lysaer sacrificed himself to contain the Mistwraith, and Dakar found out that the Fellowship had an idea that it might come to that, it just further intensified his feelings towards both. They chose the wrong person to be sacrificed - Dakar's hero was thrown under the bus and his nemesis was spared. But it still seems to me that there is something more to the whole thing... Something deeper that I'm just not seeing.


message 20: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Dawn wrote: "Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt galled to no ..."

At this stage in the series, do you think Dakar was much of a deep thinker?

If you were in company of two half-brothers and one was introspective, moody, if not outright bristly, are you a deep enough thinker to figure out why?
And if that person, who guards his privacy with barbs, also had felon's scars, and also possessed a competency to make you look - not only stupid, but could run rings around and over you - whose company would you pick?

If the other is personable, nice, polite, apt to laugh easily, willing to overlook faults, and has a striking gift of charisma - which way would you lean?


Charles (charliewhip) | 141 comments Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad Prophet felt ..."

Well, thank you, Janny. I have always felt that Dakar's preference for Lysaer was a style/personality issue. No, Dakar's personal evolution is only really amping up as this story begins, not developed yet. No spoilers, but as we read on in the series, we should keep our eyes on Dakar, as a majorly evolving one.


message 22: by Shel, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Shel (shel99) | 2320 comments Mod
I just finished this, and wow. Thoughts are a bit incoherent right now, but I'll return when I've had a chance to think about it some more.


message 23: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Shel wrote: "I just finished this, and wow. Thoughts are a bit incoherent right now, but I'll return when I've had a chance to think about it some more."

Shel - when you get over the shell shock and the tail spin, it will be very interesting to see your posts, since I know you for one who enjoys a nice complex read with deep characters.


message 24: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Charles wrote: "Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Janny wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Well in some ways in that scene, Dakar acts like a jealous sibling. One quote: "Although relieved of a burden, the Mad..."

Oversimplification of any character in this story is quite likely to return to bite ya! Good advice...


message 25: by Shel, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Shel (shel99) | 2320 comments Mod
Well, I'm obviously saddened by the way things turned out. I'm finding myself a bit angry at Lysaer's father for not allowing him at least a little bit of basic training in his gift; I wonder, if he'd been trained, would he have recognized that his thoughts and feelings were being manipulated by an outside source, the way that Arithon did?

Let's see, what else. I loved the encounter between Elaira and Traithe. In fact, I think that Traithe might be my favorite character so far; he didn't have as big of a role as most of the others, but I'm really struck by his calm acceptance of his great loss as a result of his own bravery. I can imagine how someone with less integrity and strength of character would let themselves turn to bitterness, but there's no trace of that in Traithe.

I'm also wondering what happened to render Luhaine and Kharadmon discorporate...I'm sure we'll find out!

In the Eventide segment, Sethvir muses "...though Arithon could build on his training and possibly unravel those securities [that bind the Mistwraith at Rockfell Peak:], having suffered to subdue such an evil, Rathain's prince was least likely to meddle in foolishness..." and I'm afraid that might be foreshadowing for future books...

One thing I thought was interesting was the way that the defeat of Desh'thiere was treated so matter-of-factly. Not that it wasn't difficult, of course, but in contrast to so many other fantasies, defeating the big bad guy didn't require loads of research, quests for arcane ingredients, etc... just the two princes, with a little guidance, using their inborn abilities. It really hammered home that the defeat of the Mistwraith, though important, is NOT the crux of this story. It's the beginning, not the end. It sets up the terribly complex situation that the rest of the series will be resolving. And I can't wait to see how it pans out! :)

I did type up some notes after each set of three chapters that I'll copy and paste into the discussions when the group gets to them.


Charles (charliewhip) | 141 comments Shel wrote: "Well, I'm obviously saddened by the way things turned out. I'm finding myself a bit angry at Lysaer's father for not allowing him at least a little bit of basic training in his gift; I wonder, if ..."

Shel, you are off on many correct tracks. Keep reading, keep observing closely.


message 27: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 55 comments Charles wrote: "Shel wrote: "I'm also wondering what happened to render Luhaine and Kharadmon discorporate...I'm sure we'll find out!"

One of the published short stories, "Reins of Destiny" published in The Solaris Book of New Fantasy deals with one of the these events. :)


message 28: by Shel, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Shel (shel99) | 2320 comments Mod
Jeff wrote: "He comes up with explanations that fit his preconceptions without letting the facts get in the way."

I think you are right about this, and it makes me wonder about his long apprenticeship, because it doesn't seem like a personality trait that one sees in those trained by mages.


message 29: by Dawn (last edited Jul 28, 2010 06:20AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Janny wrote: "At this stage in the series, do you think Dakar was much of a deep thinker? If you were in company of two half-brothers and one was introspective, moody, if not outright bristly, are you a deep enough thinker to figure out why?..."

That completely makes sense for Arithon. But I still am put off by his love for Lysaer (especially after a line I just read in Ships, that I won't mention here). If it were me? I'd probably hate both of them. Arithon with his felon scars, bad attitude, wasting talents that I would kill to have. And Lysaer, golden and perfect, always polite, blah blah blah blah blah. But that's just me... lol. I guess I do see why Dakar would like Lysaer more than Arithon, but I don't know why he would feel the need to choose one or the other, why not hate both? But that's just him I guess. Not the brightest crayon in the box, definitely not a deep thinker, and besides that drunk 99% of the time.

Sorry if I've seemed slow in all of this (although I have enjoyed the discussion it has spurred) - I guess my greatest flaw is that I always believe the deep down people are good. Deep down, Dakar must be able to see the truth of the matter. But in reality? That's just crap. People are people, good or bad, flawed and selfish at times. And, a lot of the time, blind to reality in favor of what is easiest or makes the most sense.


message 30: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Shel wrote: "I think you are right about this, and it makes me wonder about his long apprenticeship, because it doesn't seem like a personality trait that one sees in those trained by mages."

I sort of assumed/guessed that the Fellowship puts up with him because of his gift of prescience. But I'm sure there's more to it than that, assuming that's even a factor.


message 31: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Jeff wrote: "I just think about what it took for Caolle to see Arithon for what he is. When he finally saw it as Arithon was freeing the Dead the following 2 paragraphs really struck me what it takes to even begin to understand Arithon....."

I agree with everything you say, but just wanted to point out.. Caolle had a significant hurdle in getting to know the real Arithon that not everyone has - Arithon was pretending to be a lazy-know-nothing layabout for quite a while when they first met. So Caolle had to get over that impression AND get to know the real Arithon at the same time before he could grow to like/respect him.

But like I said, I do agree - and that's a really good passage to point out. I just wanted to throw that out there.


message 32: by Chris (last edited Jul 28, 2010 06:16AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) Dawn and Shel, it's fun to sit back and watch as you react to these books, knowing what I do about what's still to come for you....

Of course, I've only read the first three, so there are others that do that for all of us.....


message 33: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Chris wrote: "Dawn and Shel, it's fun to sit back and watch as you react to these books, knowing what I do about what's still to come for you....

Of course, I've only read the first three, so there are others..."


Hey now, I've read 1.5 (halfway though Ships) so I'm almost caught up to you now :-)


message 34: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Chris wrote: "Dawn and Shel, it's fun to sit back and watch as you react to these books, knowing what I do about what's still to come for you....

Of course, I've only read the first three, so there are others..."


Chris - it's REALLY EVEN MORE fun to watch you having fun watching them, knowing what's in store for All of you down the pike. (huge grin).

Jeff - #27, thanks for putting that in here, you bet me too it.

Jeff - #28 - That is very astute spotting.


message 35: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Shel wrote: "Well, I'm obviously saddened by the way things turned out. I'm finding myself a bit angry at Lysaer's father for not allowing him at least a little bit of basic training in his gift; I wonder, if ..."

Shel - you bring up some very perceptive points.

With regard to Lysaer's lack of training - do you think his father had the knowledge to impart, in this area? What would have been required to give Lysaer access to that knowledge?


message 36: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Dawn wrote: "Jeff wrote: "I just think about what it took for Caolle to see Arithon for what he is. When he finally saw it as Arithon was freeing the Dead the following 2 paragraphs really struck me what it tak..."

Says a lot about Caolle's character - nothing more scary (to me) than the competent warrior/tactician who will not admit he is wrong.

How much do you think Halliron foresaw the need to help Caolle change course?


message 37: by Jon (last edited Jul 28, 2010 07:35AM) (new) - added it

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Janny wrote: "With regard to Lysaer's lack of training - do you think his father had the knowledge to impart, in this area? What would have been required to give Lysaer access to that knowledge? "

I just read a paragraph in the Sentence chapter (CotM II) that seemed to indicate Lysaer was barred from training by the sorcerers at Rauven.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Jon wrote: "Janny wrote: "With regard to Lysaer's lack of training - do you think his father had the knowledge to impart, in this area? What would have been required to give Lysaer access to that knowledge? "
..."


I've been pondering this and couldn't pull anything from the top of my memory, but wonder if the answer isn't in the history of Dascen Elur that is on your website, Janny. Lysaer's father would have had to ask the mages to train him? Given his enmity toward any kind of sorcery, it's hard to imagine there were mages adequate to train his son in Amroth.


message 39: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Janny wrote: "With regard to Lysaer's lack of training - do you think his father had the knowledge to impart, in this area? What would have been required to give Lysaer access to that knowledge?..."

Wouldn't it have had to be a similar situation to Arithon? I don't think Lysaer's father had that information to impart, so Lysaer would have had to be given over to the mages completely like Arithon was. Being the only son, the king wouldn't want to give up his only heir.. Like Arithon, there would have been a day when eventually Lysaer would have to choose between his training and his family - who knows what he would do? And that would be only initially. Once Lysaer's mother went out and had another son, and that son went to be trained, the king was probably so bitter that he would never have allowed Lysaer to be trained in the same vicinity as Arithon.


message 40: by Jon (last edited Jul 29, 2010 05:30AM) (new) - added it

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Dawn wrote: "Wouldn't it have had to be a similar situation to Arithon? I "

Here's the relevant passages I was referring to:

King of Amroth to Arithon: 'You sold your talents well for the massacre of s'Ilessid seamen. Your reason will interest us all, since Lysaer never sailed with a warfleet. He never wielded his gift of light against Karthan.'

Lysaer clamped his fists against the balustrade, stung to private anger by the remark. No scruple of the king's had kept him ashore, but Rauven's steadfast refusal to grant the training that would allow him to focus and augment his inborn talent.

p. 51-52 of The Curse of the Mistwraith 'II. Sentence' chapter


Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Jon wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Wouldn't it have had to be a similar situation to Arithon? I "

Here's the relevant passages I was referring to:

p. 51-52 of The Curse of the Mistwraith

King of Amroth..."


Huh! Good spotting, Jon!


message 42: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) Jon wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Wouldn't it have had to be a similar situation to Arithon? I "

Here's the relevant passages I was referring to:

p. 51-52 of The Curse of the Mistwraith

King of Amroth..."


I stand corrected. I really need to start bringing the book with me to work, maybe then I wouldn't get into these predicaments :)


message 43: by Shel, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Shel (shel99) | 2320 comments Mod
Janny wrote: "With regard to Lysaer's lack of training - do you think his father had the knowledge to impart, in this area? What would have been required to give Lysaer access to that knowledge?"

Hmm. I suppose he'd get no help from the mages at Rauven Tower. I imagine that when he bartered for gifted sons as his bride's dowry, he was counting on his father-in-law's help training them... Are there at least any books accessible to non-mages that would have given Lysaer at least a grounding in theory, if not the actual usage of his magic?


Chris  (haughtc) With it being a refusal to let Lysaer get the training, is it perhaps a prejudice held by his father against mages in general, because of his obsessive hatred of the s'Falenn?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Chris wrote: "With it being a refusal to let Lysaer get the training, is it perhaps a prejudice held by his father against mages in general, because of his obsessive hatred of the s'Falenn?"

And apparently vice versa if you read Jon's post above.


Charles (charliewhip) | 141 comments Chris wrote: "With it being a refusal to let Lysaer get the training, is it perhaps a prejudice held by his father against mages in general, because of his obsessive hatred of the s'Falenn?"

I agree that this was one of the two very good reasons that Lysaer was denied training in his power. Lysaer's father-king hated magic and felt it was below Lysaer's royal station. The other, as Janny pointed out, was that the training was probably unavailable except at Rauven.


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Shel (shel99) | 2320 comments Mod
Charles wrote: "Lysaer's father-king hated magic and felt it was below Lysaer's royal station."

I wonder if he always hated magic or if it was a reaction to his wife's desertion? If he had always hated magic, why would he have accepted mageborn sons as a dowry?


message 48: by Dawn (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) SPOILER


One thing that I don't quite understand, and that I've been meaning to ask in hopes that all of you lovely insightful people can enlighten me...

When the Koriani do their character scan of Arithon and Lysaer through Elaria, and learn that the prices had both inherited the gifts of two royal houses (Arithon - compassion/farsight; Lysaer - justice/farsight), afterwards Morriel says:

"Arithon's is an incompatible legacy. His mind is fatally flawed. The Fellowship should never have sanctioned his right of succession, for suffering shall dog his path as surely as seasons must turn."

Why are the gifts of empathy/compassion and farsight incompatible?


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Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments I believe because Arithon will drive himself to any lengths, using his farsight to find the most compassionate path. Morriel only sees what she wants to see, though, or doesn't see past the surface of Arithon, on more than one occasion.


Charles (charliewhip) | 141 comments Shel wrote: "Charles wrote: "Lysaer's father-king hated magic and felt it was below Lysaer's royal station."

I wonder if he always hated magic or if it was a reaction to his wife's desertion? If he had always..."


Shel, in my humble opinion you have hit that particular nail dead on the head. Arithon's mom must have been one amazing woman.


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