Qualms With YA Adult Authors from an Avid Reader

[[deleted user]]

Wow, Sharon! You are so wrapped up in your own circular argument and missing my point that it's almost not worth arguing any more. But I will state this last point clearly - I have not been talking about Stephanie's age, rather respect for another human REGARDLESS of age or differing views.

However, you keep justifying your behavior toward her BASED upon her age with amazing condescension - as if she is forbidden from speaking with adults and expressing herself and not worthy of an apology due to her age. An apology that had to be dragged out of you.

I'm done. You are obviously a hard, stubborn case who can't admit any wrong.

[MissSusie]

I agree Shawn!!
Also Sharon you keep offering her old books and as she and others were saying its NEW YA Fiction

Oracle why should she need to apologize she was speaking of an opinion which she has every right to express.

[Sharon]

Susie wrote: "I agree Shawn!!
Also Sharon you keep offering her old books and as she and others were saying its NEW YA Fiction

Oracle why should she need to apologize she was speaking of an opinion which she..."

The complaint was that there are allegedly no YA books without sexual situations in them, and when I present a vast selection of them, it's now "Oh, there are no NEW YA books without sexual situations."

Again, not saying what is meant. There is a reason that the "old books" (as you put it) remain in print and quite popular. They will still be in print and quite popular when Twilight (and since when is a book with an abusive boyfriend being presented as the ideal partner "moral" literature for teens?) and its ilk are long gone.

I should apologize, of course, because apparently I have no right to express MY opinion, but Stephanie is hands-off. It's obvious to me that a teen's opinion is sacrosanct with some people, and that there is no criticism thereof permitted. "Slut-shaming" is A-OK, though.

So, I have apologized. I have presented a list of YA books that are "moral," "clean" or whatever other adjective you want to employ. All of this is dismissed, because *Stephanie* has a right to say whatever she wants, but I don't.

I am so glad that Shawn and Susie were able to clear this up for me.

[Oracleofdoom]

When one's opinion is an attack on certain types of people, it is offensive, and an apology would be appreciated. This seems like it should be obvious.

Please stop trying to say that you don't think people should be attacked for their opinions. It's very clear to me that Susie and Shawn only care if people whose opinions are similar to your own are attacked. You're perfectly fine launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with you. Your claim that Stephanie owes no apology demonstrates this.

[Paul]

Fascinating squabble discussion. Let me add my little bit.

First, I am (far too rapidly) approaching 60. I do not write for the YA market (and make no mistake, a market is what it is. Commercial.) I suspect I am not able to write YA stuff.

Why? Because I have no idea what teenagers want to read. I have never been a teenage girl. I have been a teenage boy, and then, if a book contained extreme violence and graphic sex, I wanted to read it.

Yes, we used to call them teenagers, not YA. In fact, I disagree with the term YA. Teenagers are not young adults, they are teenagers. They are nothing like adults - yet. They're like the intertidal zone on a beach, alternately losing elements of childhood and gaining elements of adulthood, backsliding and regaining ground every hour. They deal with things no adult has to deal with. Puberty, a microcosmic world consisting largely of school and home, a narrow band of social interactions with people who are basically the same as them.

Some teenagers may be concerned with large issues like global warming and the Third World. In my day it was pesticides and overpopulation. But, if I was anything to go by, while they may be concerned in abstract about larger issues, they are more immediately and profoundly concerned about 'I like him, does he like me?' and 'I'd like to ask her to the dance, but I have a boil on my nose'.

Adults have to deal with issues like 'Because of recession, I'm going to be made redundant and won't be able to pay the mortgage.' Teenagers don't have to worry about being made redundant from school.

But there are three themes that impinge on everyone's life, whether child, teenager or adult. These three are violence, sex and drugs. These are ever-present realities in all our lives. If a book is to have any pretence of dealing with reality or a subset of it, these issues have to be addressed. Morality doesn't enter into it.

Now before anyone accuses me of being condescending or of imposing views on others, I would like to point out that the above deals with my experience of being a teenager forty years ago. I suspect little has changed, but I'm not certain. I would love to know what today's teenagers (oh, alright then, YAs) would like to read, because, knowing that, I could enter the most lucrative market segment of all.

So please feel free to tell me, if you are a YA reading this, what sort of books you would like to read. I'll do my best to oblige. (I actually mean that.)

Oh, and to me, condescending is defined thus: telling a target audience you don't belong to what they should read. Any reading audience is intelligent enough to decide for themselves.

[Pat]

Paul wrote: "Fascinating squabble discussion. Let me add my little bit.

First, I am (far too rapidly) approaching 60. I do not write for the YA market (and make no mistake, a market is what it is. Commercial.)..."

Here, here...

[Susan]

As an author, I would like to raise a point: whenever we choose to target our books at a certain audience, we alienate others.

There was a comment made at some point, asking why authors would do this. It's because we can't please everyone, so we pick a target and write to that target. Some authors will get specific down to the types of clothes the reader wears and what her name is. Others say, "It's for teens who are okay with reading sexual situations."

Those are the choices we make. We can't please everyone, nor should we as authors try.

Remember, to a large extent, what gets published is what sells. Do you want to see books that are free of adult language/sexuality/situations? Fine. Let me offer you all a suggestion or three:

1. Talk to your local librarian who curates the YA literature. Talk to your local booksellers. Can't find anyone with the right knowledge at a chain? Try an indie. Still can't find anyone? Return to library and follow point #1. Talk to your friends. Talk to random people who are holding books. It doesn't matter -- just talk to readers. There's no one more willing to steer you toward what you want than someone who reads.

2. Make a list here on GoodReads! Older books, newer books... doesn't matter. But make a list, get people voting and talking. A site like this is great for finding like-minded readers. You can implement Point #1 that way.

Oh, and a third suggestion would be to BUY those books. Money talks, and right now in the publishing industry, that's never been more true. If publishers can make money from the types of books you want to see, they'll be more willing to publish them. That's why you're seeing so many sexually-charged books: Publishers are making money.

Bottom line: no matter how distasteful we find it, publishers exist to make money.

So go and change an industry. Buy the books you want to see.

It really IS this easy.

[Stephanie]

Okay, I've read most comments and skimmend the others. Two things I'd just like to say and one of them is probably going to sound...arrogant or snotty even though it's not meant that way so I now give for warning that nothing in this post is meant in such a way.

One: I've seen several posts for people to call for an apology towards me. And I'd just like to clarify that I have no desire for an apology. Whether or not one is required, I really have no idea.

Two: I've also seen a post calling for me to apologize and (this is the part I'm worried about there being a misunderstanding on) I'd like to point out that I have been trying to be respectful. And I have apologized more than once if I have offended, been disrespectful, ect. to others I was speaking to at the time I was here.

I have no desire to argue with anyone. I never did. I simply wanted to express my opion because if I want what I call clean books then I need to do something not just sit here. Everyone here seemed pretty open to discussion so I saw an oppurtunity to express my opion. I'm sorry for all the mix ups with my wording and will try to be clearer in future conversations.

Now on to other matters....

As a teen/YA, whichever you prefer, reading Paul's post and answering his question of what sort of books I myself like to read, I'd have to say that I myself emjoy a book that has plot. A plot that has some meat to it but isn't so complicated that I have to keep a dictionary close by. I enjoy books without sexual content, as we all might've guessed. :D Being a sarcastic person, I absolutely enjoy reading books that have sarcastic characters or moments in them. So...I suppose that's my suggestion so take from it what you will.

[Stephanie]

And on a different note, I appreciate all of the suggestions of books that members here have given me and, although I didn't say anything, I did see and read the posts. There were even a few books that peeked my interest and I looked at. So, thank you.

[Brenna]

My two cents as both a parent and an author...

What is "suitable" should largely be up to the parents to decide for individual children. It is both their duty and priveledge to do so. Becoming a parent means taking that mantle on. If someone didn't want it, he/she should have chosen not to reproduce.

Yes, children will further disagree with their parents and seek to expand their horizons, outside the "protections" and ultimately the "structure" set by their parents for the subjects. That is the nature of the teen mentality. I'm fond of saying that a parent's job is to try to keep the darlings alive and safe (and explain what they experience unexpectedly) until they are responsible enough to do it for themselves...and I have responsible children, but they are CHILDREN...not adults. Being the adult is momentarily my job.

IOW, anyone's line of appropriate or inappropriate for a child to access will be skewed and situational. I personally am akin to Auntie Mame and believe that exposure to information, from me and from other sources, will make my children LESS likely to be promiscuous, to become parents early, or to fall prey to either STDs or to abusive/controlling people. So far, it has worked for me. At 16, 13, and 10, my children have NO INTEREST in the "inappropriately adult" dating patterns their peers engage in. But my oldest reads Sherrilyn Kenyon and Robin Owens, which is adult material sexually. It's not erotic romance, but it is sensual. That is MY CHOICE, as a parent, to allow her to read it and ask me questions about what she's read.

Personally, I don't find that there are no "clean" books out there for YA. I can suggest some. Try Gloria Oliver's books...Vassal of El is a favorite of mine and of both of my daughters. Harry Potter talks about snogging (kissing, starting at about 14 or 15 or so), but there's no sex that I recall. Lynne Hansen's books are clean. I could go on. They are out there, and my kids read them as well.

Brenna

[Jeffrey]

Can't we all just get along? (Rodney King)

[Valerie]

(Let's skip the fact that my books are certainly unsuitable in this context, okay? Don't go looking.)

I'd like to place a warning: Harry Potter is not an appropriate "clean" book. While there's no mention of sexual situations, it contains violence against children, "HP and the order of the Phoenix" describes torture (Harry and the quill of Mrs Umbridge), and people are killed.
If passion is no acceptable content, murder can't be either.

What do you think?

[Brenna]

Valerie,

To be blunt, I've already said that "appropriate" or "inappropriate" are skewed and situational and should be left to individual parents to set for their children, but beyond that...

If we don't allow YA books to touch on any subjects that are controversial, we're feeding them Pabulum and treating teens becoming adults like five-year-olds instead of preparing them for the harsh realities of the world they will soon inherit. They see worse things than Umbridge torturing Harry and kids dying on the news, in magazines, or internet videos.

You can't censor the whole world from them, so it's up to individual parents to pick their battles. If sex is the battle, it is. If violence is, it is. If language is, it is. It slut wear and body modification are, they are.

And it is up to those individual parents to enforce their personal lines, as best they can...not to expect the rest of the world to do it for them. The latter is a pathetic cop-out of their duties as a parent.

History has shown that completely repressive rules and laws that have no leeway often end up breeding law-breaking, lack of self control, dangerous back-street clubs, and abuse.

Brenna

[Sue]

I don't label my SF novel as YA even though one of the main protagonists is teen-aged and it might well appeal to Harry Potter fans, because some of the situations ARE adult. (I don't think it's immoral; the overarching theme is responsibility.) But following this thread, I can't help but be reminded of something that has come up over the last week in the creative writing class I'm taking. One of our faculty remarked, "You write what you think is a good book, and submit it to your agent. He says, 'Great, but put some more sex and violence in it.' You comply. It goes to a publisher, who likes it but thinks it needs still more sex and violence. Again you comply. Then the editor puts even more sex and violence in, perhaps at the expense of the plot. How much is due to the author and how much is due to the mindset that sex and violence sells?" Homecoming

[Brenna]

Sue,

I have rarely been told to add more sex (never more violence, since I write violent enough to scare agents already). If it makes sense to add it, I do. If it makes sense for the sex to be hotter I do. If it doesn't make sense, I tell them why it doesn't.

FWIW, I've also been asked to turn something that was originally sensual to PG-13 to match the sensuality of the rest of the anthology, and I did it without losing length and without losing characterization or plot.

I have books that are PG-13 safe, and teens do read them, but I don't call them YA for the opposite reason you don't. Mine don't have teen protags, so it's not true YA.

Brenna

[[deleted user]]

It isn't so much about 'repressive' vs. liberal anything goes mind-set. Everyone here agrees parents should make the choice.

However, it has been medically and scientifically proven that a child's brain - the part containing 'reasoning' and being able to discern fact from fiction (or fantasy) doesn't kick in until between the ages of 15-17. Up to that point their imaginations are easily influenced. A ten year old isn't going to mentally process a graphic sex scene the same way a 16 year old can.

This is a issue that is ignored by publishers and some authors when chasing the bucks and taking YA subject matters - sex, violence - to an extreme. I never said, ignore these subjects, just know the audience one is writing for.

I don't feeling I'm excluding anyone by not taking these subjects to an extreme. In fact, I feel the opposite - I'm providing an alternative to people - kids and adults - who want to read a book which includes them but doesn't go to the extreme.

[Brenna]

Shawn,

You are taking my comments out of context. Don't do that, please. I was SPECIFICALLY contrasting reasonable parents that set reasonable limits and pick their battles with repressive societies that made everything the heirarchy considered "immoral" illegal to show that the former is preferable and the latter leads to bad results.

And I never mentioned a liberal anything-goes mindset at all. I don't feel that is appropriate for children, since they need limits and rules in their lives. The historical data on letting kids run wild is not more cheerful than the data on repressive societies and families.

Please, stop trying to put words in my mouth that weren't there.

BTW, those studies you note are the baseline for the "average" child. There are children that develop the abilities earlier. I'm not saying to let a 10 y/o read sensual sex scenes. Mine don't. Not even a consideration. But I know 14 y/os that are more than capable of it.

I was reading the old bodice ripper Harlequin books at age 11. No teen pregnancies for me. I got married at 19 and had my first child at 26. Then again, I was running the household and caring for younger siblings at 9. I had a FIRM grasp on reality vs. fantasy very early in life. Parents are aware of the individual needs and abilities of the child, so that's where the buck should stop.

There are publishers out there that AREN'T force feeding teens sex and violence. It's up to the parents to look for them, buy from them, tell others about them... Like someone else said, put your money and your letters to editors where your mouth is, and you might find the books you want easier to find, as more people buy them.

Brenna

[Paul]

Well said, Brenna.

And thanks, Stephanie, for answering my question - like all discerning readers of whatever age, you want a well-written book with plot and characters you can believe in. Just no sex. Tenderness, love and compassion, perhaps some allusion to sex here and there but that's as far as it goes. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. It owuld mean that you are in no way confined to the limited subset of books that is marked YA. Many, many adult books would be fine for you as well.

Couple of other queries I have regarding YA stuff. What is the exact definition of YA? Is it 13-19, 14-18 or what? And is it generally accepted that YA books have to have YA protagonists? I'm thinking back, here, to my youth when I read things like 'Biggles' - if anyone remembers him.

[Alan]

Paul,

It's pretty nebulous, which is part of the problem, but I think the publishing houses like it that way because YA is the "it" right now. The only genre with anything resembling growth in sales, so publishers categorize everything they possibly can as "YA". I've seen some people try to break the category into "upper" and "lower" as far as age ranges, but that hasn't really caught on from what I can tell.

Personally, I'd like to see a rating system for books, just like movies. Somewhere on the back, slap a rating and brief explanation of why the book is rated as it is (mild language, some sensuality - that sort of thing). Then people can know at a glance what kind of read they are getting in to and you have less surprised readers out there, parents or teens.

[Brenna]

These days, the definition of YA is that it will have an age peer to the intended readers as the main character, but you're absolutely right. A lot of "adult" books are appropriate to younger readers, though they may not have a YA hero/heroine and therefore not be listed as YA.

What is called YA varies by company. Some are intended for older teens...16-18 or so. Some are intended for the 13-16 crowd. You can sort of guess at who it's aimed at by how old the YA main character is. If the character is 15, it's written with 13-17 in mind or so. If the character is 13, it's written to appeal to 11-15 or so. If the main character is 16 or 17, it's made for 15 and higher.

And it's not just YA books. You also have middle reader/tween books, which are intended for the 9-12 or so crowd.

Brenna

[Brenna]

Paul,

That may not exist from the NY publishers, but some indie presses and authors offer it (not on the book back but on the web sites). Many of my publishers offer rating scales for everything from sexual heat level to sexual content warnings, violence warnings, language warnings, and more. I do the same thing on my site. Every book gets a rating scale, whether it's YA safe or intended for adults. And I also have a gateway on my site to shuffle younger or more sensitive readers to books more fitting to their sensibilities.

Brenna

[Paul]

Thanks, all. Confusing situation, isn't it? I know when I post stuff on GR, I include a content warning for sex, violence or bad language where applicable - which is almost always. That's why it would be a challenge to write something YA, particularly with a YA protagonist. Still, I'll give it a shot when I've finished with the current slate.

[[deleted user]]

Brenna wrote: "Shawn,

You are taking my comments out of context. Don't do that, please. I was SPECIFICALLY contrasting reasonable parents that set reasonable limits and pick their battles with repressive soci..."

Brenna, you read into something I wasn't doing. I was not meaning to take your post out of context or put words in your mouth. I will hit 'reply' if I'm speaking to an individual. In this case, I was making a general response to different posts on this thread from my knowledge and experience.

As for 'liberal' views, others have expressed those on this thread regarding sex - but all have agreed about parents being the ones to chose and set rules. I AM in total agreement about parents.

Are there exceptions to the 'base line' child development, of course. Again, you went into defensive mode when the reason I said that is because I believe a writer should know their audience. I'm sorry you took offense and reacted where none was meant.

Now, where publishers are concerned, in my personal experience and insider knowledge of editors and publisher - yes - some are pushing authors to include more adult subject matters in YA books. One of highest percentages of spending demographic on books are kids - with or without their parents permission. Publishers see the trend and that's what they go for.

Are publishers FORCING kids a gunpoint - no. But it becomes a cycle - what kids want, publishers print it and if that's all the publishers are offering then that's what the kids read.

My series is a response to a request from my daughter and her friends who wanted an alternative to the trend. Not better, not worse, an alternative.

[Sharon]

Shawn wrote: "It isn't so much about 'repressive' vs. liberal anything goes mind-set. Everyone here agrees parents should make the choice.

However, it has been medically and scientifically proven that a child's..."

All authors and publishers "chase the bucks." Publishing is not a non-profit/charitable venture. One or two "dogs" and an acquisition editor is looking at a pink slip.

And I'll ignore the idea that being liberal = "anything goes." Why? Because it is baseless and asinine.

[Brenna]

Sharon,

I agree with you that liberal does not mean anything goes. "Anything goes" is a subset of both sides, as far as I've been able to tell. I've met just as many card-carrying Republicans that toe the party line but give their kids no rules as I've met proclaimed "liberals" that do. Working in the schools, I've seen just about everything. I never count a new twist out, though.

At the same time, I say that if NY conglomerate is not providing what you want to read, go indie. NY follows what's hot in indie....eventually. If all your dollars go that direction, NY will take notice...eventually. Sometimes, it's a long, hard haul. NY will not change on a dime. It's not in their blood to.

A defeatist attitude will not win the day. Neither will screaming. Put the wallet where what you want is. At the very least, you'll be buying what you want to see published.

Brenna

[Sharon]

Brenna wrote: "Sharon,

I agree with you that liberal does not mean anything goes. "Anything goes" is a subset of both sides, as far as I've been able to tell. I've met just as many card-carrying Republicans th..."

Wholeheartedly concur re: going indie.

Like I said earlier (and as Brenna has echoed), vote with your dollars. Buy the books that you want to read. There is a reason some of those older books that certain parties poo-pooed are still in print: the themes and issues do not go out of style.

There are books out there to suit all tastes. Pretending otherwise is just silly.

[Kirstin]

Sheesh! I know exactly what you mean! As someone who doesn't like to write about and much less read about immoral, lude, and other "inappropriate" behaviors and images, I can empathize with you on this one.

I can see a place for these behaviors in adult novels and short stories, but in YA fiction intended for readers 12-18???? I don't think so! When I started writing my YA books, I made a point to not ever include things such as senuality/sexuality (though my characters do share an occasional peck on the cheek or smack on the lips), profanity, and exessive violence (like Michael Crichton "Jurassic Park" blood/gore violence). I have been dissapointed whenever I pick up a YA book intended to start at the 12-year-old level only to find that there is "immorality" in it. Whether or not it is graphicly discribed, it is implied in such a way that it is almost on an adult-themed level. I was also disappointed when I found, during my last excursion to the bookstore, that nearly every one of the YA novels I picked up and fanned through had the h*** word the d*** word, and even went so far as to take the Lord's name in vain. And these were novels marketed to 13-year-olds!
If you want a "clean" book, please try my Code Name: Silence.

I hope that the madness stops and YA authors start writing YA novels that are clean again and stop putting emphasis on the "adult" part of the "Young Adult" genre.

Thank you for posting your concerns, Stephanie!

[Paul]

Kirstin, if you mean 'hell' and 'damn', surely these are so mild that no-one could possibly take exception to them?

Perhaps you should start a campaign to form a separate genre - hardcore Christian perhaps - which would obviously save you a lot of time and temptation.

Or does such a genre already exist?

P.S. The word you were searching for is 'lewd'.

[Sharon]

Paul wrote: "Kirstin, if you mean 'hell' and 'damn', surely these are so mild that no-one could possibly take exception to them?

Perhaps you should start a campaign to form a separate genre - hardcore Christia..."

Goodreads List: Great Christian Fiction for Children and Young Adults

Perhaps this list will be to Kirstin's liking.

I have to concur with you, Paul. I find it amazing that there is someone out there who is so ... sensitive ... that typing out "hell" and "damn" are impossible for them. It seems a little bit over-pious to me. However, I am not a young adult who is worried about "immorality." :-)

Are "lude" stories about the drug culture, do you think? ;->

[Kirstin]

Paul wrote: "Kirstin, if you mean 'hell' and 'damn', surely these are so mild that no-one could possibly take exception to them? ... The word you were searching for is 'lewd.'

Whoops. Typo. I just didn't bother to look it up in the dictionary.

I just make a point not to use those words. Period. And I don't think it's appropriate when they appear in books marketed to children younger than 14. Just my thoughts.

[Kirstin]

Sharon wrote:
"I find it amazing that there is someone out there who is so ... sensitive ... that typing out "hell" and "damn" are impossible for them..."

Why? It's my choice. Not impossible.

[Sharon]

Kirstin wrote: "Sharon wrote:
"I find it amazing that there is someone out there who is so ... sensitive ... that typing out "hell" and "damn" are impossible for them..."

Why? It's my choice. Not impossible."

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that I found it amazing that someone was that sensitive.

[Sharon]

Kirstin wrote: "Paul wrote: "Kirstin, if you mean 'hell' and 'damn', surely these are so mild that no-one could possibly take exception to them? ... The word you were searching for is 'lewd.'

Whoops. Typo. I ju..."

Could you please provide an example of a book marketed to children (i.e., under age 14) that uses "damn" and "hell"? I'm curious.

I am not concerned with "taking the Lord's name in vain," as not everyone is a Christian. I am, however, curious about the other matters. YA is pretty much 14-20, and you are implying that there are childrens' books out there with "inappropriate" language -- so I would like to know what they are.

[Julie]

I have a little problem with the "the parents must decide" attitude. For one thing, the average teenage bookworm has more time to read than his/her parents do, and can go through books a lot faster. Second, by that time, they know the values they've been taught, and their intuitive sense of justice and virtue is well-honed.

One reason to read fiction is to expand one's horizons, to see things from other points of view. Perhaps even to see why someone might make a different decision than you or your parents would make. Differing economic circumstances, religion and locations affect the way people will behave, and the teen years are the perfect time to read fiction about all kinds of people, even those you might consider "bad." No one ever became a thief because they read "Les Miserables."

Real-life teenagers have to deal with sexual situations for which parental platitudes are not adequate tools. If those situations in novels provide some ideas about how those can be dealt with, and the consequences that might ensue, so much the better. They're getting an education that their elders did not get.

I can understand why the words "hell" and "damn" are offensive to some religious people — and I would probably not have the protagonist of a novel marketed to younger teens talk that way, but most parents of those same teens do talk that way.

The world is not as it was when I was growing up, when even fiction for adults rarely had sexual content. A teenager wishing to avoid it today will probably have to read older books (before about 1980), or just avoid romance as a genre. I doubt you'll find much sex in mysteries or adventure stories, for example. Come to think of it, I don't remember reading much YA romance at all.

[Stephanie]

Way to be nice to Kirstin, guys. And thank you for making an effort, Kirstin.

Why is it so wrong for someone to not want to swear? I really am curious. Why is it that some of you have an objection to someone not swearing? I honestly don't see the point behind swearing. But that's just me...

[Julie]

Of course it's not wrong not to swear!

But —

What do you think of people who swear? Does it give you an impression, maybe, of what kind of people they are? Does it make you feel a certain way about them? That's why it's in the book. To make you feel just that way.

The author is trying to show you the world the character lives in. Sometimes it's not pretty. Sometimes the character is not all clean, or even good. Language is the only material the author has to paint this picture with.

That said, the YA literature I grew up with did not include swearing, and a lot of it still stands up today.

[M.j.]

In adult literature it is a given.
In YA literature it should be a fineable offence. It simply is not necessary.

[Paul]

Accuracy. If you were depicting, for example, a teenage gang-member, who, discovering his younger sister, a drug-addicted prostitute, has been beaten up by her pimp, vows revenge and enlists his fellow gang members, he is most unlikely to say "I am going to visit that gentleman and indicate to him that I am extremely displeased with his actions."

What he would say is - well,I leave it to your imaginations.

It depends whether you want books to be a realistic portrayal of a segment of life or bland escapism.

The same applies to violence, sex and drugs. All four would be necessary to accurately describe the world of the teenage gangsta.

[Jeffrey]

Gang member says, "I am going to eliminate him from the face of the earth, and when I do I will be 100% fulfilled in my obligations to my dear sister who did not deserve such cruel and unusual punishment from this beast of a man."

[Paul]

Absolutely. And no bodily functions, portions of the human anatomy or acts of physical intimacy were harmed during the production of that statement.

[M.j.]

Paul.
If you post was in answer to my humble generalisation, then I would have to ask: Should our young adults be reading about gang rape, drug abuse, and violent revenge. I don’t have kids, so maybe I am out of touch. When I see the current crop of video games, I know I am.

[Sharon]

M.j. wrote: "Paul.
If you post was in answer to my humble generalisation, then I would have to ask: Should our young adults be reading about gang rape, drug abuse, and violent revenge. I don’t have kids, so ..."

We have our young adults reading about a whiny teen being forced to decide between bestiality and necrophilia -- the latter character being portrayed as the ideal boyfriend despite his abusive behavior (the "Twilight" series) ... and yet this is posited as a moral set of books. I guess that's because Bella totally loses her humanity after she gets married and has a child -- just like all good women should.

And people are going to quibble about "hell" and "damn"?

At this point, I can only laugh.

[Sharon]

M.j. wrote: "Paul.
If you post was in answer to my humble generalisation, then I would have to ask: Should our young adults be reading about gang rape, drug abuse, and violent revenge. I don’t have kids, so ..."

PS: Ever read S.E. Hinton's "The Outsiders"?

Gangs, drug abuse, revenge, violence ... all of it with the exception of rape.

This book is considered a classic of literature, and was assigned to me in high school honors English.

What about the Bible? Rape (which was okay as long as the rapist paid 50 pieces of silver to his victim's father and subsequently married her), violence (numerous wars), polygamy, murder ...

I could go on, but I think the point has been made.

[Sharon]

Julie wrote: "Come to think of it, I don't remember reading much YA romance at all."

It's a whole new market, and pretty lucrative for the publishers. We had "kid's books" and "grown-up books" back in the day. That was it.

Remember, the idea of the "teenager" as a target market didn't even come along until the late 1950s and early 1960s. The targeting has just become more honed.

I think it was Paul who said that BITD teens were not "young adults." I tend to concur with that assessment.

[Jeffrey]

Gay gang member says, "I feel I could slap that mean hunk of flesh silly because of the uncalled for and outrageous lack of respect he has for my dear sister who has been nothing but understanding and giving to me and even let me borrow her lipstick during my coming out years. I think that is what we will do to him. Slap him and paint him up like the street walker that he is and turn him loose in Beverly Hill with no money and no way to get home. Who knows what will happen to him in that white honky neighborhood."

[Jeffrey]

BITD ?

[Sharon]

Jeffrey wrote: "BITD ?"

Back In The Day. :-)

[Sharon]

Jeffrey wrote: "Gang member says, "I am going to eliminate him from the face of the earth, and when I do I will be 100% fulfilled in my obligations to my dear sister who did not deserve such cruel and unusual puni..."

Alternately, perhaps the young gentleman and his associates from the neighborhood youth organization will visit the entrepreneurial boulevardier and give him a stern talking-to before repairing to their local dining establishment for a malted.

[Sharon]

Julie wrote: "That said, the YA literature I grew up with did not include swearing, and a lot of it still stands up today. "

Careful, Julie; you might be accused of promoting "old books," as I was when I provided a number of just such alternatives. ;->

[Julie]

The world has changed a lot since the books I loved in my childhood were written. Teenagers have every reason to want books that take place in the world they live in.

That said, I'm still very fond of the old stuff. I spent much of my childhood among the dusty old books upstairs in the neglected "junior" section of our small-town library. I don't think anything there was younger than I was, and most of the books were much older. I read all the Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books (up till about 1955, anyway) and all the classics, too. Albert Payson Terhune is still one of my favorite authors. No one supervised my reading there; the ceilings were a bit low for adults anyway.

So yes, I gladly promote "old books," but I know that not everyone wants to read them.