Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
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There are some people who just can't read fiction. They can't tolerate "make believe," and while I can't relate to that, I do understand how that kind of brain works.
But the snooty attitude regarding one genre versus another...that's just silly. My made up is better than your made up because my made up is about ancient Greeks or spies or prehistoric people and yours is about murder or space ships or people falling in love.
I know the Martians are having a good laugh at us.
Josh wrote: "I know the Martians are having a good laugh at us."Love it! Too true- LOL!
Rob, you and me both :).I was so disappointed with that article and the subsequent fall-out. It was an opportunity to dip a journalistic toe into a rapidly growing, fascinating industry and community, but it was lost to a mish-mash of other, more deliberately-provocative agenda.
To me, reading and loving fiction is all about the "I don't know (or care) what it's called, but I know what I like" attitude :).
Josh says: Personally, I don't find writing romance distasteful or beneath me. All my stories -- mysteries, fantasies, adventures, plain romance -- are also about people relating to each other. I find human relationships -- especially what attracts and connects people -- fascinating. I like writing about it. Well said. There have been interesting articles since the "Out" article melodrama that hint at the "romance" tag being a major problem to m/m romance being respected in some people's minds, not just the "m/m" hook.
Will that always be the case? As you say, romance and relationships are integral to everyone, in all walks of life. And so much of the fiction is more than just entertainment, it's excellent quality and also adds value to our perception of life and our attitudes to fellow people. Yet it's still not respected as much as other genres.
And of course, I still hammer on about the unfairness of the "m/m" tag being first on anyone's listing. I still think fiction should be presented as e.g. romance / SF / fantasy / crime etc, and *then* m/m. Putting everything in m/m together means that people *do* think it's all from the same stable as the high-volume erotic romance thread.
Josh wrote: "But the snooty attitude regarding one genre versus another...that's just silly. My made up is better than your made up because my made up is about ancient Greeks or spies or prehistoric people and yours is about murder or space ships or people falling in love."Amen.
If one more person tells me I'm "too smart" to write romance, I'm going to slap them silly. I'm proud to be a romance writer. I've worked long and hard to become one. To me, nothing could be more fascinating than exploring character and relationships, the little quirks that make us tick, what pulls us together & drives us apart.
I read other genres, but AFAIC, any book that doesn't at least have a romantic element in it is disingenuous. The real world operates with a steady dose of lust and love in it. I think our storyworlds should reflect that. Books that don't often feel sterile and cold to me.
Could be I'm biased, tho. ;-)
Mod
Clare, I differ with you -- and some of our other m/m writing colleagues -- on this one. In my opinion, m/m is a romantic subgenre of GLBT fiction. All m/m is gay fiction but not all gay fiction is m/m, if you see what I mean.
M/M is ALWAYS romantic. It is NOT always erotic. There is where the confusion lies. And I think some of it comes from romance publishers themselves who tag all m/m as erotic in a hope of boosting sales. As those of us who write in the genre know, some m/m can be sweet romance. It needn't always have a erotic element.
So what would be different between m/m romance and just a simple gay romance? Those of us who typically kick butt in this genre would describe it as a sensibility, an approach to the storytelling that is generally pretty different from standard gay romance. And part of that difference is that m/m is designed to appeal to romance readers -- meaning readers specifically looking for a romantic story to read.
Gay porn is not m/m -- as most m/m fans will make clear. The emotional content, the story focus, and the language and descriptives -- the sensibility -- is simply not there.
The story can be an adventure story or a mystery or a historical high seas drama, but the main thing going on is going to be the relationship between these two guys (whether it ends happily or not). And the focus and approach to analyzing and detailing that relationship is going to be different than say...Edmund White or Andrew Holleran.
So in my opinion, M/M should always come first in the descriptive of a title. This is the first thing a reader of m/m wishes to know (and the first thing someone who dislikes m/m needs to know).
M/M = romance in the perception of most readers and most publishers. If the story contains gay characters but no romance, then it is simply gay fiction and falls into whatever other sub-genre it fits.
Yes I see your point. It's in the understanding of what "M/M" means. I came into the genre using it just as a secondary description of the pairing in the romance (or whatever other genre), but I can see that it's become a descriptor in itself.And yes, I also believe that M/M has become synonymous with erotic. I write them myself so I'm trying not to be hypocritical. But I write them by choice, not because it's the only option open to me. I wonder if the balance will change over time and after more familiarity with M/M, or whether that's just human nature?!
I'm publishing a short at Amber next month that is pure romance, very understated, no explicit sexual action - and a large dose of humour to boot :). I expect to be disappointed with the sales compared to erotic titles - but it was great fun to write!
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I think a number of m/m writers hope that by distancing themselves from the m/m appellation, they'll gain greater acceptance from the guardians of the gates of GLBT letters. Not going to happen. Regardless of what you call it, if you're writing romance -- especially erotic romance -- you've got to accept that it's a genre that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
Not because it's sexy (although that does certainly make some people uncomfortable) but because it's emotional.
We're not that comfortable with emotions in our society. We're taught that it's good manners to rein it in. Men don't cry. But women aren't allowed to cry either except in certain proscribed circumstances. And romance is all about emotions. It's essentially an analysis and detailing of emotions. And we tend to think that those who spend that much time giving vent to emotion or focusing on something as "trivial" as romance are sort of sophmoric.
(And, in fairness, some of the m/m stories I've read are painfully sophmoric, but there's also a lot of terrific, powerful, realistic stuff here.)
So I think that focus does make those who don't enjoy that analysis uncomfortable. They get snooty about it. Oh you write romance -- as though you just confessed to not finishing third grade.
I'm publishing a short at Amber next month that is pure romance, very understated, no explicit sexual action - and a large dose of humour to boot :). I expect to be disappointed with the sales compared to erotic titles - but it was great fun to write!
You might be surprised. Yes, there is a certain crowd of m/m readers who are bitterly disappointed if they don't get their mandatory sex scene, but the far larger crowd is actually into the story and emotional content.
I'm having a heckofa time keeping up with this discussion! Just want to say two things:One, to clarify (just in case), that the reason I talked about this issue in the context of the genre of scifi, not romance, is only because that is where most of my life reading experience is. Hope that didn't come off as either hijacking or snobbing. I think that the experiences are pretty similar for both genres and am not sure that I'm ready to say which is more frowned on. Probably is romance, because (I think), men especially hate talking about emotions or advertising that they can get mushy, and women, well, sometimes I think we hold men up as an ideal so we try to copy that. But that's an entirely different discussion on what it means to be feminist. :)
Unlike many of you, I've never enjoyed romance much. Read one back 25 yrs ago, went, 'meh' and headed back to scifi. ^^ Wasn't snootishness, just that I could never shake the m/f baggage. I love thinking about how people relate though, and romance is an obvious way to do that. Once I discovered m/m, I found that romance became interesting, because there wasn't this assumed social construct that bored me.
Can I give Scifi a plug, btw? It is actually one of the best genres for including romance/sex as side elements, AND it was very quick to explore gender issues in a positive way. Something about the setting gave scifi authors the freedom to do that and they took advantage.
Two, with respect to the topic of classifying m/m within or alone or whatever... I think many of us like to have very clean, very systematic ways of classifying things, trees, branches, where, e.g., fiction branches into mystery, horror, scifi, romance, and maybe then you can talk about hybrids, or further breakdowns (e.g., within romance, m/m, m/f, f/f, the various menage). I include myself in that number by the way -- must be my science training that likes classification neat.
But classification is not neat (as biologists can tell you), I don't think that those schemes reflect the way populations of people clump around very specific ideas. So 'm/m' denotes several things (which Josh explained and understands better than I ever would), some of which are rather nebulous, but whatever it is, m/m has hit a chord for lots and lots of people (women, especially) who 'know it when they see it'. In the same way that 'fantasy' can mean much more than elves and/or wizards, but elves and/or wizards populate the vast majority of fantasy, and we come to equate them. So we have people clotting around elements of fiction that all together strike a chord, and although tree-like classification of fiction can describe those clots in a sense, it isn't the whole story.
I hope that made sense. Might be my geek brain trying to understand systems again. Sorry if that's so. :\ Maybe I should just go hide in my books again.
Oh. Three. Josh, yeah, think I've read most of KAM now, and RSL was my favorite. Just very thoughtful and meaty.
I just finished Renault's Alexander trilogy. I found them all fascinating and engaging. The Persian Boy, of course, I loved. Such a different point of view from all the history taught to us in school. They made me hope that Renault had it right.Now I want to find everything I can along those lines. Any rec's would be appreciated.
So we have people clotting around elements of fiction that all together strike a chord, and although tree-like classification of fiction can describe those clots in a sense, it isn't the whole story.That's a great visual for trying to balance the classification of a theme/genre against the emotional responses to a "chord" :). I know what you mean - but fail at explaining it any further myself :).
Mod
I'd be interested in some recs as well. As a writer, her work is unparalleled in my opinion, but that doesn't mean there can't be lots of other enjoyable stories out there!
Mod
Certainly not. It's a good parallel.
I think that the experiences are pretty similar for both genres and am not sure that I'm ready to say which is more frowned on. Probably is romance, because (I think), men especially hate talking about emotions or advertising that they can get mushy, and women, well, sometimes I think we hold men up as an ideal so we try to copy that. But that's an entirely different discussion on what it means to be feminist. :)
There are a lot of western societal expectations of what strength is -- crying is mostly perceived as weakness in our culture, but in other cultures not necessarily. And we do place a premium on "strength," although strength can be defined in many ways.
Unlike many of you, I've never enjoyed romance much. Read one back 25 yrs ago, went, 'meh' and headed back to scifi. ^^ Wasn't snootishness, just that I could never shake the m/f baggage. I love thinking about how people relate though, and romance is an obvious way to do that. Once I discovered m/m, I found that romance became interesting, because there wasn't this assumed social construct that bored me.
I think this is true for many, many women who read m/m.
Can I give Scifi a plug, btw? It is actually one of the best genres for including romance/sex as side elements, AND it was very quick to explore gender issues in a positive way. Something about the setting gave scifi authors the freedom to do that and they took advantage.
And this is true of fantasy as well. I agree. It's one of the things I like best about spec fiction. It's one of the few genres where same sex stories can get mainstream acceptance.
But classification is not neat (as biologists can tell you), I don't think that those schemes reflect the way populations of people clump around very specific ideas. So 'm/m' denotes several things (which Josh explained and understands better than I ever would), some of which are rather nebulous, but whatever it is, m/m has hit a chord for lots and lots of people (women, especially) who 'know it when they see it'.
Exactly. Which is why it can be difficult to explain to someone who doesn't get the difference between gay porn and intense erotic romance, for example. "Sensibility" is a hard thing to explain to someone who doesn't share that sensibility. :-D
In the same way that 'fantasy' can mean much more than elves and/or wizards, but elves and/or wizards populate the vast majority of fantasy, and we come to equate them. So we have people clotting around elements of fiction that all together strike a chord, and although tree-like classification of fiction can describe those clots in a sense, it isn't the whole story.
Yes. Right.
I hope that made sense. Might be my geek brain trying to understand systems again. Sorry if that's so. :\ Maybe I should just go hide in my books again.
It makes sense to me.
Oh. Three. Josh, yeah, think I've read most of KAM now, and RSL was my favorite. Just very thoughtful and meaty.
I agree. I feel like there's a lot of KAM in that one.
Well, I've finished all the Charlie Cochrane Cambridge Fellows stories I loved them, very gentle romantic mysteries. They definately left me wanting more.I've also read Driftwood which was brilliant, it made me laugh and cry and at times feel alomost uncomfortable, the characters are so well drawn and the progression is so real. The scenery is real too which I love.
What to read next???
I just ordered Aaron's Wait by Dorian Grey. You guys have probably already read that. I'm a little slower having just discovered the M/M genre this year. (ordered my first one in Jan). I have a bunch that I need to download to my bookreader, it just seems to take me longer to read a digital book than an paper book.
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Aside from that, the one and only fandom I follow has been running a "Big Bang," so I've been reading the stories in that. They're short enough that I can squeeze them in on my lunch break, but long enough too feel like I really got to read something.
And that's it for my reading. Even if I had the time I seem to have the attention span of a flea.
Have any of you read "The Sound of Your Voice" by David Sullivan? I'd have to say that it is one of the sweetest books in this genre that I have read. I stated in my review that I only wish that I could read it for the first time over and over and that is exactly how I felt when I was done with it. It is about a deaf young man forging a relationship with a hearing young man. It is very touching. (and hea)
Lori K wrote: "Have any of you read "The Sound of Your Voice" by David Sullivan? I'd have to say that it is one of the sweetest books in this genre that I have read. I stated in my review that I only wish that ..."I first read "The Sound of Your Voice" quite a while ago and enjoyed it very much. It's one I like coming back to every now and then too. :-)
I must find other works by this author when I have the time/money. Have you read any others?
I don't think he wrote anything else. I looked at the time and there was nothing. Not even a gen search. Odd. Maybe it was a fluke. God, but it is good tho.
Lori K wrote: "I don't think he wrote anything else. I looked at the time and there was nothing. Not even a gen search. Odd. Maybe it was a fluke. God, but it is good tho."There's one listed here on goodreads Officer Needs Help
I've not read either, but will check them out.
I have the feeling that it's not the same person. If you look at the reviews for that book the author identifies himself in a review but never makes mention of this book.
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Josh wrote: "Yikes. Two authors with the exact same name in the exact same genre?"That's what I was thinking. Odd.
Here is a site for mysteries. Am thinking it's a bit out of date... for our favorite author anyway :) http://stopyourekillingme.com
but I have found some good books there and they are listed by genre which is handy.
I just finished Slow Bloom and Fatal Shadows and loved both. I am embarrassed to admit that I for some unknown reason I was always avoiding to read this series. Now this book was picked for me in a challenge and I ask myself why was I avoiding it??? I really loved Adrien, how his mind was working, thinking ... superb!!I started with Mute Witness now, but I think I will first read the next in the AE series and afterwards continue continue with Rick R. Reed.
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All right, I can't remember if this is the right thread where we talked about ereaders, but whatever. FINALLY delivered my Kindle a couple of days ago...HELP!!!
If I'm buying direct from publishers rather than Kindle store (which was apparently organized by hopped-up crack monkeys and bite me amazon, I'd rather give the writers the higher % royalties, anyway) what format am I supposed to choose? Will mobipockets work?
not sure about that but if you download Calibre it will convert to the amazon format for you.
Lissa wrote: "not sure about that but if you download Calibre it will convert to the amazon format for you."Thanks! Looks like it'll only take txt, doc, rtf, htm and pdf. Bleh. I can read it, but it sure won't be pretty.
I tried to download the kindle thing to my computer and it keeps freezing up my pc. So I can't even buy books that way. Since I have a Sony it's okay but it's hard to find all the individual publishers who have books that I want to read. Good luck with your quest.
Kari, you can download the Mobi/PRC version for Kindle and it works no problem. Also, should be able to email doc files to your own special Kindle address and they'll email you back the Kindle file version. (Check your manual. I can do that with mine, but it's the K2.)
Missy wrote: "Kari, you can download the Mobi/PRC version for Kindle and it works no problem. Also, should be able to email doc files to your own special Kindle address and they'll email you back the Kindle file..."I emailed a mobi file and it wouldn't take it, but I may have picked a secure mobi file instead of one I converted myself. txt and pdf are no problem, tho. I haven't tried a doc file yet. Mine's K3...I don't get anything back, it just goes straight to my Kindle. When it works, anyway. LOL
I have 600+ bks on my laptop. No sh*t. I don't want to send *all* of them to the Kindle, but...Sheesh. Nightmare.
Kari wrote: "Mine's K3...I don't get anything back, it just goes straight to my Kindle. When it works, anyway. LOL..."Dude, I'm so jealous! I still have to download and transfer. :( Ah, well. I do not, however, envy the transfer of 600+ books. Ho-ly crap. Good luck with that!
ETA: Do you know about the Kindle Smut Goodreads group? They might have some tips and such for this kind of thing. They're M/M friendly and crazy about their Kindles. (Since my book has a Kindle mentioned, they said the book had "Kindle porn." Whatever floats your boat, huh?)
Missy wrote: "Kari wrote: "Mine's K3...I don't get anything back, it just goes straight to my Kindle. When it works, anyway. LOL..."Dude, I'm so jealous! I still have to download and transfer. :( Ah, well. I d..."
Yeah, but if I hadn't kept dragging my feet on buying an ereader, I wouldn't have the 600+ book backlog. ;-)
I'll have to look for that group...I am seriously in love with my Kindle. Not in love with buying from the Kindle store, but I loves me some Kindle. (Get your deviant mind out of the gutter, LOL.)
Just sent moulah and applications to both Passionate Ink & Rainbow Romance Writers. More items to tick off my to-do list, hooray! I know you're in RRW, Missy -- what about Passionate Ink? Just wondered how m/m friendly they are, although I already sent the cash so I guess no point in steering now...
Don't know about Passionate Ink, but RRW rocks. They're the reason I'm published right now.Deviant mind? Me? :) Some days, I'd have to step up to get to the gutter. ;)
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Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)
Lissa wrote: "Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)"A Demon Inside or just about anything by Rick.
Missy wrote: "Lissa wrote: "Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)"A Demon Inside or just about anything by Rick."
Thanks! Looks great. It's next on my list.
At the moment, I reading 4 books. Don't ask how I am doing it, 'cause I couldn't give you a reply, but I manage.A Dangerous Thing
One Little Sin
Midnight Moon
Mute Witness
I just finished A Dangerous Thing and loved it. I really can't understand why I never was interested in reading this series. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!! Hmmm, I think I'll read The Hell You Say and the sequels in the series before I continue with the other books.
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Arzu wrote: "I just finished A Dangerous Thing and loved it. I really can't understand why I never was interested in reading this series. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!!
Hmmm, I think I'll rea..."
Lissa wrote: "Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)"Not m/m, but one of my all-time favorites is The Mirror. I've read it countless times over the years.
Thanks for the recs. I'm gonna go to the library this weekend and see what I can find.
Lissa wrote: "Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)"Every year around this time, I re-read Tanya Huff's Summon the Keeper. It's more humor than spooky, but it's perfect for Halloween, trust me.
"Lissa wrote: "Anyone have any good Halloween recs? Like with ghosts or spooky settings? (not vamps and werewolves)"I really enjoyed Clare London's Perfection. It is a little Halloween short available at Torquere Press. I admired Torquere for publishing it as it goes against the 'rules' for m/m romance.
James is a little surprised when co-worker Vic disappears, but he's even more surprised when the man shows up again months later, after securing a supervisory position. He never used to think Vic was hot, but something has changed, something he can't quite put his finger on. When Vic makes a play for him, James is happy to go along, but will Vic turn out to be the perfect man for him?
And after reading that if you want a happier story, check out The Mask by Clare London.
There’s a very mixed reception for Joey and his lively, unruly friends, when they go trick-or-treating on the penthouse floor of the exclusive Royal Apartments. They find themselves the butt of everything from hostility to humor to handfuls of caramels. But at the final door, a horrific masked figure tricks Joey into finding what might just be the best treat of all.
Torquere is having a sale - Just put 'septend2010' in the coupon code box when you check out at Torquere
Books and you'll get 15% off the price of
your order!Sale is on now through Thursday night (September 30) at midnight (est)!
Thanks for the Recs Andy, will have to look at those. I go through a book every other day so gotta keep going. LC I've looked at Tigers and Devils. I will eventually buy it. I should just find the publisher and get it in ebook format since it would be cheaper. I really wish the library carried some m/m.
JPerceval I read Summon the Keeper years ago. Funny book. Have you read the Shadow series by Huff? Tony I think was the main character. That one was creepy and funny. And mainstream m/m.
LC wrote: "Sorry, it's got nothing to do with Halloween, but right now I'm reading Sean Kennedy's Tigers and Devils. Truly fabulous. I stayed up way too late reading last night and when I went to bed, my b..."LC, Tigers and Devils was one of my favorite summer reads. Fortunately, I read it while I was on vacation, so there was nothing to keep me from reading! I'm reading Sean Kennedy's newest book, Wings of Equity right now and it's a good one, too.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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Death in Kashmir (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
M.M. Kaye (other topics)Elspeth Huxley (other topics)
Lauren Willig (other topics)
Charlie Cochet (other topics)
Damon Suede (other topics)
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I know. Me too!