SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Group Reads Discussions 2010
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"Kushiel's Dart" First Impressions *no spoilers*
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Just started. Rather nice style, but a bit complicated for non-native speaker.
I definitely thought the very beginning was difficult to get into, because there is a lot of world-building information that you're thrown right into without any definitions or explanation. I'm rarely successful in getting anyone to read it because they read the first few pages and don't understand anything and decide to not keep going. However, I do think that it gets cleared up before you're too far in, and a quick re-read of the very beginning helps it all make more sense.
I felt completely differently, Brooke. I loved the beginning, and thought that the world building was great, and that it just got tedious once the characters were introduced. I didn't much care for Carey's writing style either. It felt stiff and unweildy and too many words were overused and stuck out like a sore thumb to me.
I think you both are right. The beginning is a bit difficult, but it is completely ok for me. And it catches. I know books with more difficult beginnings. And thanks a lot - there is a world-building information - as for me the exploration of a world is one of the main reasons to read.Style is really stiff, but i say it's a stylization of a magnificence. So, it's an issue of taste.
I agree that it is definitely an issue of taste. I don't mind books that use formal language, but this one didn't feel like it was natural. It felt forced. Like Carey cobbled together sentences out of her thesaurus after looking up replacements for words that felt too plain. But... that is just how it felt to me. *shrug*
At first I was put off with the writing style- difficult to get into. But once I did, I found a rhythm, kept a dictionary handy (really cool with the dictionary on the kindle) and started enjoying it.
I haven't even started yet. I'm tentative about even opening it. For some strange reason I feel like getting sucked into an 800-page book right at the start of finals month would be a bad idea.Which basically translates into I'll be starting it tonight. (:
Ami wrote: "At first I was put off with the writing style- difficult to get into. But once I did, I found a rhythm, kept a dictionary handy (really cool with the dictionary on the kindle) and started enjoying..."I'm also in, after the 1st chapter.
Dictionary helps a LOT.
I read the first two chapters twice and it did help I think to understand the background. I thought she was trying to capture some of the lushness and exotic nature of the place in her language, but agree it was off-putting. I am also a little disturbed by a society which seems to have formalized slavery and prostitution.
Sandy wrote: "I am also a little disturbed by a society which seems to have formalized slavery and prostitution."I read the book a while ago, but I don't remember it really being like that. In my head, the Houses were more like indentured servitude/geisha establishments, and the prostitution is not like what we think of today at all. It's the expression of their religion. This will be explained more as the book progresses, but a lot of stuff is left unexplained until future books. (I never got past the first one, myself.)
There was a priestess status called a "heirodule" in ancient times. We call it sacred prostitution, but I don't think that's the way it was understood then. It was about becoming the Goddess you worshipped and expressing the Goddess' love and power. I think that's the perspective that Carey is trying to evoke. The interesting thing is that it's an alternate version of Christianity that's much more like ancient Pagan religions.
I tried to read this book several years before and remember disliking it and not getting too far into it.Now that I am trying it again, I find that I am quite enjoying the style and can't remember why I disliked it so before.
I do find a bit...annoying... the constant hints of some future betrayal/awfulness only to be told 'but that's now happening now, we'll get to that later...'
But yeah, loving the dictionary on the Kindle. I'd never even heard of the word 'algolagnia' before. Now I know.
Shomeret - yes, that is exactly what it felt like to me - reminded me a lot of the social structure of the temples/priests/priestesses of long ago.
I read this one a long time ago and was impressed with it. I loved the writing style, world building everything. Phedre and Joscelin are wonderful characters. Mind you Joscelin moaning gets a bit tough to handle.
This is one of my favorite series .. glad a lot of new readers are liking it. It does start slow...
After several pages it goes faster and easier.Interesting religion, it well-reasoned explains the role of sex in D'Angeline culture... I like if smth is logically correct. But i do not understand, why the author has taken the Christian source - this looks a bit embarrassing. I think, while constructing the world, it's better to construct the whole, but not mix up.
And also - can smb explain me, what does "Love as thou wilt" mean. Dictionary hasn't helped. *confused*
I'm taking Elua's commandment to "Love as thou wilt" to mean to embrace all forms of mutual and consentual pleasure. Since Elua commanded this, they see sex and pleasure as their form of worshipping.Am I close?
Think yeah, as i thought near the same - about the sense of that religion.But, in fact, i wanted to catch the word-by-word meaning - of "as thou wilt".
"As thou wilt" is "as you will" in an older dialect of English (Early Modern).I have a theory that the author borrowed and combined Aleister Crowley's "Love is the law, love under will" and "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." But a quick Google search didn't turn up any official authorial confirmation. :)
Oh, thanks, caught it!And supposition is interesting.
It's very beautifully and poetically written, though the accusation of "purple prose" might be lobbed at her too, depends on taste. It's a fascinating world, and agree some of the customs, concepts etc. weren't explained, but I could figure them out by context. For example, I wasn't sure what a "marque" was til later.I recognized the "love as thou wilt" paraphrase from Crowley too. The slavery, oddly enough wasn't as harsh as I originally expected...
About "marque" i am also not sure, but as for me - French dictionary is helpful. In French it means sign, hallmark, label, stamp - this can give some guidelines.And for me, purple prose isn't an accusation :)
I took "marque" to be a tattoo.I'm 15% done. The world is interesting and I'm enjoying watching it unfold. My only dislike is the voice. Since everything is written as already happened, a great deal of the suspense is gone. We know the narrator survives, and probably to a ripe old age.
Yes, Lara, the narrator survives but oh what a journey! I've read this entire series and fondly remember getting sucked in right from the beginning and staying up way past my bedtime to read just one more chapter! Getting used to a book written in first person was awkward to me at first, but once I grew accustomed to it, I cannot think of it any other way.
I'm half way through and at this point I'm glad I slogged through all the introductory stuff. It is getting to be a page turner.
I read this when it first came out and I thought wow, she really did a great job with an original subject matter for fantasy.
It's an interesting alternate world setting, but all the early political intrigue is somewhat slow going, and the constant "If only I had known what was to come...." foreshadowing gets annoying. I'm about 40% through and it is starting to pick up though.
I finished it. The second half is really good. The foreshadowing finally starts being a bit comforting, as the heroine's survival really is in question.So - would someone who's read the next in the series tell me if it's worth buying it immediately? Does it get bogged down, or does it continue to be as good as the second half? Linette?
I read the first 9% and gave up. I was still in the world building part and maybe the beginning of the actual plot, but the world being built just didn't interest me. It was Europe with a few minor changes. I think there just wasn't enough difference to keep my attention. I quickly found myself being forced to read ... (never a good sign)
Sandy, I enjoyed the first three books very much, but then taste is subjective isn't it? It took me a while to get to the next three as the main protaganist changed but eventually I read them as well. I am now reading the Naamah books. My very favorite was the first book, I think, but I am glad I read all of them.
Thanks. I'll look for the second one then, sooner rather than later.
Lara Amber wrote: "I took "marque" to be a tattoo.I'm 15% done. The world is interesting and I'm enjoying watching it unfold. My only dislike is the voice. Since everything is written as already happened, a grea..."
Well, knowing that she's still there in book 6, we sort of get the hint that she survives.
I read this some time ago (2008, I think), but I do remember that the first few pages / chapters are slow going since most of the world building occurred there, but I remember being fascinated by it. It's a different world from any I've read before and that is usually enough to captivate me.At that time, I thought I would reread this book some time later, but I still remember the story as of now, so maybe some years later. It's a huge tome, though, so not sure if I'll really go into it again.
I read Kushiel's Dart in January of 2004. I loved it! I've read all of the books about Phedre and Jocelin, the books about Imriel and just last month the first Na'amah book, which since it's set 100 years after Phedre's time could be another entry into the series. I think the second Na'amah book comes out in June!Last night I picked up Kushiel's Dart again to reread it. I read the first ten or so pages, then skipped ahead to around page 100 to read a scene with Phedre and her friend Hippolyte. I'm just not in the mood, especially not for a 900 page book...
Sandy wrote: "I read the first two chapters twice and it did help I think to understand the background. I thought she was trying to capture some of the lushness and exotic nature of the place in her language, b..."One of the points Phedre make is that there is no slavery; indentured servitude is something that can be set, and there was no indication that there was cheating. In the penal colonies (the States and Australia) indentured servants were slaves, their masters could charge them for every part of their lives and make it impossible for them to buy out. The free love religion is such an interesting part of their world. It's interesting too, that only this bit of the world believes in Elua's love as you like religion, but no one protests it. In Sharon Shinn's world in the Alleluia files, there is a severe sect that hates the angels and their consorts. I don't remember if there is a religion like that in Carey's world
Marisella -- to the best of my memory, none of the religions in Carey's world finds any of the others offensive or heretical or downright evil; in that sense, it is very much utopian. All the religions seem to just kind of live peacefully together side by side, borrowing from each other as necessary but otherwise letting each other alone. They may be snobbish about each other or not, and Phedre makes the point that the D'Angelines, as the youngest of the religions, try to honor all the others when they encounter them, but there aren't any religious wars.The Yeshuites kind of look down on the D'Angelines as heretics, but in that "Oh, you're going to hell, but I guess while you're here I'll have to tolerate you" way.
And in Kushiel's Avatar there is the Mahrkagir, but that's a different sort of thing, not really religious (in terms of an organization of human beings) at its root.
I'm an avid Jacqueline Carey reader, and absolutely love all the books set in Terre D'Ange. My favorites are by far the first trilogy that features Phedre and Joscelin -- while Imriel and Siodonie have their charms, Phedre stands apart as one of the strongest, most original heroines I've encountered. And her star-crossed love affair with Joscelin is endearing. A few friends of mine did not like the intricate political framework, but the political intrigues and particularly Phedre's training under Delauney were some of my favorite aspects of the books. But of course (as many have commented here) the most striking element of these novels is of course the unique "love as thou wilt" religion of Terre D'Ange. It's appealing, cheeky, and sweetly ironic.
For those of you that loved or liked the book/series, was it a slow difficult start for you? I am reading this late b/c I just got it this week from my library, but I am finding it hard to get into.
I think I got into it pretty quickly. . . but I always understand when someone else doesn't. Phedre's narrative voice takes some getting used to (that whole willfully archaic bit) and there's a LOT of world-building with not a ton of action through the first section.The thing that I really appreciate on rereads is how little of that world-building is wasted; if you're struggling because you feel like she's just explaining everything she thinks is cool even though it's not at all relevant to the book, take heart: it will be, though it might not be until 600 pages later. :)
Okay, I started this last month since I was anticipating it taking a while to read and I was correct. My first impressions were that it was very easy to read. I kept saying "just one more chapter." I was interested in the world (and the parallels to 'real' history). Phedre has an engaging voice.
I'm feeling the same way, Meredith. The aughts and somewhats are barely noticeable after a while, and I'm always interested what will happen next.
Found this Wiki info online while looking for a better map of Terre d'Ange:https://kushiel.fandom.com/wiki/Terre_d%27Ange
It has taken a while to learn the names and who's related to who among the royals and nobles. I am finally catching on I hope.
Is anyone interested in leading our discussion this month? Dive in if you are.