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A Game of Thrones
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02/10 A Game of Thrones - Jon and Catelyn
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Julie
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Feb 18, 2010 09:25AM
Jon is one of the leading characters and by the conversation so far here one of the favorite characters as well. One of the things that bothers me a little is why does Catelyn not like him? Are Catelyn's feelings really about Jon himself or do they have more to do with Eddard's refusal to tell her who the mother is? What does Catelyn's treatment of Jon say about her own personality?
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I'd say that Catelyn is angry/hurt about the affair that produced Jon. Not knowing who the mother is frustrates that. She might also be overly defensive of Robb's position as the heir, since Eddard seems to actually prefer Jon. I don't think Eddard does so intentionally and is probably not even aware of it. It might just be something I misread too, and for that matter could be something Catelyn misread.
But at any rate, I don't think Jon has done anything to earn her scorn. Other than exist.
I agree, I think that to Catelyn it represents something that she doesn't know about Eddard and it really bothers her. I just couldn't believe how badly she treated Jon when he was there to say goodbye to Bran. She was so mean to him when there was really no reason to be and she couldn't even muster up a bit of sympathy to the whole situation. I think that it reflects on her on how she always wants to do the "right" thing and Jon is a bastard to her husband and it cannot be made right. There is no gray in her treatment of Jon.
One of the things that bothers me a little is why does Catelyn not like him? Another explanation is that according to the book, bastards are supposed to be tucked away into a corner and not treated the same as trueborns. The part of Catelyn that cares about her standing in society probably dislikes Jon being present alongwith the others.(Though not knowing who his mother was and whether Ned loved her, as well as competition to her own children explain a lot.)
Apoorv wrote: " One of the things that bothers me a little is why does Catelyn not like him? Another explanation is that according to the book, bastards are supposed to be tucked away into a corner and not tre..."
I think that's true. Jon has this stigma attached to him that he's a bastard child and Catelyn can't get past that.
I think Catelyn is angry with Ned for having a bastard, but takes it out on Jon. I also think she is not happy with the situation of him growing up in her home, along with her children who she see's as the 'true' Stark children.
I agree with what everyone has said. I personally think it leans a little more to the anger of Ned not sharing Jon's parentage. It is very obvious that there is a major secret and I think Catelynn feels betrayed at not being allowed in on that particular knowledge. Did anyone else feel that it involves something with Ned's deceased sister? There were a few moments when he was thinking about her or talking to Robert about her that seemed strange.
Another point is that somewhere it is mentioned that Jon has more of the Stark look most of her children(Except Arya), and that this also grates her that the bastard looks more trueborn than her own children.
Ripley and Apoorv, those are both points I hadn't considered. You are right about Ned's sister, I still haven't figured out the whole "mystery" there. I guess it is discussed in greater detail in the next books. I don't remember it all that well though and I'm not re-reading them until the next book is definitely coming out.As far as looking like a Stark that is true, and I guess that would grate on you day after day. That and not knowing who Jon's mother is would make you question your husband's love for you. I know that the marriage was arranged but they had come to a mutual love of one another and to have that in the background would always make you question if your husband actually "loved" you or not. Why won't he share that information with me? So instead of taking it out on Ned which Catelynn can't do because it isn't proper she takes it out on Jon. That makes more sense to me, kind of out of love for Ned rather than hatred of Jon that Catelynn acts the way she does.
I have a response....I considered marking it SPOILERS, but since it's my own feelings and not based on anything concrete in books 2-4, I won't. But be warned that this theory will carry out to the end of the series if it's true....that said, if I'm right, then it will end up becoming a spoiler. You've been warned......I suspect that Jon is the natural son of Rhaegar and Ned's sister. That's not probably a reach, but it does make sense. Then I think that Ned refuses to tell anyone, even his own wife, to protect Jon. He wants the world to think that Jon is his bastard. If an heir to the Targaryen throne was discovered, even in the Stark household, there are many that might try to assassinate him. He'd be in line for succession. Perhaps Ned feared that even Robert would give the order, with the fantatical way he hated Rhaegar. Jon then would be of both Stark and Targaryen bloodlines. Ice and Fire.
Interesting hypothesis.....but Jon can't inherit now anyway since he took the black.
Julie wrote: "Interesting hypothesis.....but Jon can't inherit now anyway since he took the black."That's true. Though he didn't go to the wall until right around the time that Eddard went south. And if there was a secret, it might have died with Ned.
GRRM is up to something. I might be off base, and parts of my theory are predictable enough that they're probably wrong. But Martin has a grand plan and I'm looking forward to see its resolution.
I think all of us are waiting to see a resolution, I'm trying to be patient. And I'm sure I will enjoy where ever GRRM brings us. I just wish it was sooner rather than later. *grin*
** SPOILERS **Chris wrote : I suspect that Jon is the natural son of Rhaegar and Ned's sister.
Good job spotting that. It took me my 2nd read of the series to think about it. But lots of people have come up with hypothesis, and there are no known contradictions that anyone has pointed out.
And if there was a secret, it might have died with Ned.
Ned went to fight Rheagar with 6 other persons, two of whom survived. So the secret is not dead, and perhaps others may figure it out too. (Remember that Rheagar wooed Lysanna for some time before absconding with/kidnapping her.)
Julie wrote: "Interesting hypothesis.....but Jon can't inherit now anyway since he took the black."
Customs are never as strong as need. Already in the latter parts of the series, some customs have been broken. And several bastards were acknowledged by one of the Targaryen kings.(A Dance of Dragons - the civil war which was initially reported as title of Book 5).
I'm with Apoorv across the board here. I think Jon is a Targaryen/Stark mix and I wouldn't by any means rule out Jon. It's not as though Robert had a right to the throne either. At the same time, I can't help but think that the ultimate trajectory here will put Danaerys on the throne. Could she end up married to Jon who would be her... nephew? It wouldn't be the weirdest marriage in that family....
I'm definitely not making that as a prediction by any means. I don't really think it's going to turn out that way... seems too easy of a way to make too many readers happy. Still, if I had to pick characters who will survive to the finish, my money would be on both of them.
I'm with you there, John. That was the rest of my prediction for the Ice and Fire connection.
