The Rory Gilmore Book Club discussion
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Fahrenheit 451 - Part One
OK, so here's a question: If being a pedestrian is against the law, why was Guy walking home at the very beginning of the book when he met Clarisse?
I loooooove this book, I cant put it down. I'm sorry to say I thought it was going to be one of those painful reads, but it is surprisingly easy to read and he write beautifully. Do you think Clarisse comes back? I liked her!! I hope she is not really gone.
I don't know, I kind of think she was "offed" for thinking too freely. How dare she think for herself. How dare she question things. How dare she chase butterfiles. She was too dangerous, and it was spreading. They had to get rid of her.
What do you think of the apparent void of emotion and compassion displayed by everyone around Montag? None of the other firemen seem upset when the old woman burns in the house. Mildred seems almost robotic: she doesn't care about the burned woman or the death of her neighbor and she calls the people on TV her family. Also no one talks about anything real, they just sort of babble out nonsense almost of the "who's on first" variety, but without the humor.Also, Montag and Mildred don't love each other. And it doesn't seem strange to either of her (or, at first, to him) that they don't love each other and that they don't remember how they met.
Emotion is too dangerous and the government is trying to keep them from understanding or feeling love and friendship so I think they are arranging marriages or something. It's kind of like The Giver, I read that in middle school and remember almost nothing but I remember the parents were arranged and instead of saying I love you they said I appreciate you. I hate Mildred I guess she is just a product of her government but she is so horrible. The Sleeping pills and the television and absolutely unfeeling ugh she reminds me of my roommate.
I thought this point from Sparknotes.com* was interesting:The startling point of Beatty’s explanation is that censorship started with the people, not the government (although the government stepped in later in accordance with the people’s wishes). Most people stopped reading books long before they were ever burned. It is important to note that Beatty’s entire description of the history of the firemen has an oddly ambivalent tone. His speech is filled with irony and sarcasm, and his description of reading strikes the reader as passionate and nostalgic. His championing of book burning, on the other hand, has a perfunctory, insincere tone. Of course, this sarcasm reflects Bradbury’s attitude toward what he is writing about, and much of Beatty’s complexity stems from the fact that he is simultaneously Bradbury’s mouthpiece and villain—everything he says is deliberately ironic.
*Be careful if you use Sparknotes, because there are some spoilers given away in the summaries. For example, it gave away who the visitor was at the end of this section.
I'm loving this too, Bradbury's writing is fantastic. I saw this movie years ago so I know the basic story line but I don't remember much. I was confused with the whole walking thing too. At first I thought he was on a moving sidewalk, don't know why I got that impression. Maybe walking home from the subway is okay but going for a walk is not-I don't know.
Mildred was interesting to me. I think her suicide attempt at the beginning shows there is emotion there. Clearly she has no tolerance for feeling anything which is why she's constantly distsracting herself with the parlor "family" and the seashell radio. God forbid you sit in silence with your thoughts-who knows where that could lead.
I really liked Clarisse too but initially thought she was younger. When she said she was 17 and insane I thought she was kidding. The description of her walking and watching her shoes just made her seem much younger.
The book goes so fast-I'm halfway through part three now. I started it first thinking it might take longer to get through but it's quick. Loving this one!
Joanie, feel free to start threads for the other parts if you're finished with them! I'm working on this and two other books, so I stopped after finishing Part One so I could read some of the others. I'll read Part Two today, probably, depending on how things go!
Okay great! I wasn't sure if there was a set person for each book and I didn't want to mess up anything.
Good points, Emily.I have The Giver. Maybe I'll read that this month too!
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Of course I love F 451 (have we picked a book yet that I don't love?) I love that it's so short and so simple, but with so many talking points.
"My uncle drove slowly on a highway once. He drove 40 miles/hr and they jailed him for two days." (The minimum is later said to be 55). In the future, people must drive fast! lest they take in any of nature. Also the reason they had to make the billboards bigger.
Also: "sitting around talking" is even rarer than being a pedestrian, according to Clarisse.
Clarisse is considered "unsocial" because she doesn't give into all the games, sports, and vandelism & bullying of her peers. So, the youth of Clarisse's day are very violent and are into "killing each other." Interesting that Clarisse accredits her lack of violence and tendency toward "responsibility" to getting spankings as a child, and being made to do chores "by hand."
While Montag is burning books, he is able to glimpse one line, "Time is falling asleep in the afternoon sunshine." Found that..."the statement comes from the chapter 1 of Dreamthorp, a collection of essays by Alexander Smith, a Glasgow lacemaker." Check out this website.
http://www.heliweb.de/telic/bradcom.htm
"We need not to be let alone. We need to be really bothered once in a while. How long is it since you were really bothered?"
"Then, in the twentieth century, speed up your camera. Books cut shorter. condensations. Digests. Tabloids. Everything boils down to the gag, the snap ending."
"Out of the nursery, into the college, and back to the nursery..."
"People want to be happy, isn't that right?...For pleasure, titillation? And you must admit our culture provides plenty of these."
"If you don't want a man to be unhappy politically, dont' give him two sides to worry with, give him one..."
As to Clarisse's walking, I can only say, maybe she was walking for pleasure over purpose, and that got her in trouble.
It doesn't surprise me that Clarisse was walking, but Montag was walking when he met Clarisse. That's what confuses me.
I particularly loved this section, because of Clarisse's comments about the world she lives in. It feels so relevant to me today, much more than it did when I read it in high school."People don't talk about anything."
"Oh, they must."
"No, not anything. They name a lot of cars or clothes or swimming pools and say how swell! But they all say the same things and nobody says anything different from anyone else[.]"
She pinpoints an utter lack of content, not only in conversation, but in art, while noting that it used to be different. Its almost as if Bradbury used her not only to show innocence, but also for expositional purposes -- to show how things had changed.
One of the things I love most about this group is that our conversations have content, have meaning, as it seems to be draining away in so many places, including novels.
Or perhaps I have had too many attorney lunches where all we discuss is wallpaper and cars?
Then Montag begins to realize, after Clarisse disappears, that life is without any real content and feels sickened by his job of burning the only thing he knows that MIGHT contain something real. But of course, Millie is the queen of prefering a life of oblivion and escape.
"[H]ow would it be if I well, maybe, I quit my job for awhile"
"You want me to give up everything? After all these years of working, because one night, some woman and her books--"
"You should have seen her Millie."
"She's nothing to me; she shouldn't have had books. . . . I hate her. She's got you going and the next thing you know we'll be out, no house, no job, nothing."
"You weren't there, you didn't see . . . . There must be something in books, things we can't imagine, to make a woman stay in her burning house; there must be something there. You don't stay for nothing."
Ach! I love this book. But what I find most compelling is that, unlike 1984, the desire for a "happy" life without any real meaning came from the people (and not the government, party, or corporate interests). Of course, both the government and the corporate interests jumped in on it as soon as they realzed it was what people wanted (as smart governments and corporations will do), but the dumbing down and the desire for less and less content and meaning came from the people's desire to think and reason less.
To the point that when Millie and Montag attempt to read a book, Millie is unable to cope with the meaning, because she is so unused to/uncomfortable with actually thinking about anything that has any meaning or content.
I am still digesting Beatty. What does everyone think about his conversation with Montag when Montag feels ill?
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Excellent points, Courtney. I, too, feel like I have gone months, socializing with people at work, or even out with my friends, and "real" conversation escapes us.
Alison, I completely agree with you and Courtney. It's very nice to find other people who share the same passion as I do. Books are definitely a part of my lifeline.I have to say, though, that this book is scaring the heck out of me. It has this eerieness and darkness about it that I am completely getting into. I think that I might have read this book when I was 12. I don't remember anything about it, except that I was disappointed. Well, so much for that. I am really loving this story.
Alison, I loved your comment on how Clarisse is like Rory. Especially in the episode where she joins the Puffs.I move around a lot and it's often hard to make friends, and I fully agree with the idea that people often just talk about nothing. My husband and I were just joking earlier today that I should run for some random political office, just so I could meet people who are interested in what's going on in the world around us.
What I think was interesting is that no one has equated video games with what Bradley thought the world was going to become. To me, they are the definition of engrossing oneself so you don't have to think or really live.
I have a question for everyone: Is Bradbury's point that people were moving away from books or from thinking?Books are part of being educated, but they are also a form of art and a source of escape. I'm sure plently of the people in this group have used books to ignore what's going on in their lives. Obviously us discussing the books makes them mean more, but I bring a book everywhere I go so I'll never have to sit there and stare off in to space... thinking.
Boy, that sure is the truth!! Last night, my husband was out and I was home with nothing to do. To make the time fly so I wouldn't have to feel bored or lonely, I distracted myself with Mario Kart.
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Hi, Gwynne. You raise some interesting points. Video gaming has actually become a great way for people to interact. My husband and I are avid gamers, and we currently play an on-line game that has around 11 million subscribers. The game is set-up so that the only way to truly advance is to group with other people to achieve objectives. In fact, there are parts of the game that one cannot access without being in a group of 10 or 25 people. This requirement led to the advent of "guilds", where people form associations so that they can play together and move forward as a group. Our guild has its own website, and the game requires people to talk while playing so everyone is on a headset with a mic so that strategy can be coordinated and people can play together and have fun. Therefore, the modern gamer is not an isolationist, but rather needs other people to succeed, which also makes it more fun! But like anything else, the guild is faced with issues on how to be inclusive and democratic so that it can remain highly functioning.My husband and I just watched this show on the Science Channel called "The Rise of the Videogame". One of the pieces focused on how video gaming has become a great way for people to interact socially. In fact, there was one person on the show who is studying the whole video game phenomena and its positive impact on socialization.
I also agree that reading is a solitary activity, but look how goodreads has managed to make it a social activity. Who would have thought 20 years ago that a large group of people (who pretty much don't know each other) would nominate books to read, vote on which one to select and then have deep discussions about the book on-line? To me, it's a tremendous gift. So like anything else, technology can alienate people, but it can also bring them together in positive ways if that's what people seek, and judging by the number of people who engage in these activities, many of them do.
Sera, I did not mean anything against playing video games. My husband had a similar response to you, but he also pointed out that many of the games truely require strategy, which is therefore using your brain. To me, video games are the wonderful creation that make it so I can ignore my life when things are bad. I used to play World of Warcraft, we never were cool enough to communicate at a higher level than typing, but I had friends and I could also often choose not to be social. The other thing video games have going for them is the ability to engross your life. I'm not saying it's bad to play, I like them, but it is possible to let your life become engrossed in the game. I can't spend 6 hrs just watching TV, but I can spend 6 hrs playing a game.What's interesting to me is how the book puts a great deal of emphasis on books=thinking, and TV and sports=distration from life. It does mention that the books were becoming shorter and easier before they were destroyed, but I think Bradbury is harder on TV than need be.
I would also like to point out that I think it's fantastic that I can now play Mario Kart against my sister who lives 20 hrs away.
**playing xBox right now**Actually I like games that require problem solving. Adventure games with obstacle courses and puzzles are my favorite.
Gwynne, there are no bad feelings on my part so please don't think that I would get upset over what you said. In fact, I appreciate your point of view. I just think that many people don't understand that certain games have evolved and have become very social. My husband and I view it as a hobby that we can do together, and we play with many other couples and some even have their kids involved. In my opinion, TV watching is a much more passive, isolated activity so in that sense I agree with Bradbury. However, I don't think that books fall into the same category because they stimulate ideas that lead to discussion. Words are powerful in and of themselves - many of the great events in history came about from the written word. Even the political discord that we have today stems from the interpretation of various holy works, over which people within a particular religion disagree.Anything can take over someone's life from food to exercise to spending. So your point about moderation is a good one.
Sarah, I like the games that you mentioned, too :)
Sera, I just got a new one for Wii called Zack and Wiki. The cartoon graphics make it look very kiddie but the problem solving would be difficult for kids. Anyway, it's one I recommend!
Waiting with bated breath for the Wii Yoga Board thing coming out this summer (although it seems a month later every time I check). HUGE fan of Snowboarding games and anything Zelda. Perhaps not as much as my P, but certainly lots. Hmmmm. . . perhaps today is the day to get unstuck in Twilight Princess. And seriously, I could not live without my MP3 player. I get more done every morning because of my music.
Hmmmm. . . now I am a little bit afraid. But I think my reading has to suffuse this somehow?
Courney, the Wii Fit is out here, I think! I could swear I saw it 2 weeks ago when I bought Mario Kart.I'm really super excited for Lego Indiana Jones. I love Lego Star Wars and Indiana Jones is supposed to be very similar. I'm also getting Lego Batman but that's going to be a side scroll and not 3D. I'm getting the Lego games on Xbox because of unlocking the achievments.
Mod
What I thought was amazing, beautiful, nearing poetic was how Bradbury kept referencing the different types and impressions of fire and burning.
For example, early on in considering Clarisse, Montag says: "...how many people did you know that refracted your own light to you? People were more often --he searched for a simile, found one in his work--torches, blazing away until they whiffed out." In the last section of the book, when around the fire with the other outcasts, he speaks of it being about warmth in a life sustaining way. I'm not going to look that up just now, but in so many areas, he refers to it... I think this was representative of the various changes within Montag. Of his defrosting, so to speak, and coming to life--real life.
The other thing that I wanted to point out is that Clarisse wasn't the beginning of his discontent, just the realization of it. Think about it... he'd been taking books for ages and didn't understand why. She was just the tool, the magnifying glass, the MIRROR ("How like a mirror, too, her face.") to reveal his growing dissatisfaction and his desire to understand, to feel.
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The emptiness was so overwhelming to me. The lack of meaning. "Only an hour but the world had melted down and sprung up in a new and colourless form. (Mine was a UK book, so spelling will be occasionally different.) Phrases, beautifully spun but so truly sad, say it in little ways as well... "...their case of liquid melancholy..." "...slush up the emptiness..." "Montag heard the voices talking, talking, talking, giving, talking, weaving, reweaving their hypnotic web." That last statement was itself hypnotic.
I thought, by the way, his descriptions of the dog were truly frightening. For instance, "It was like a great bee come home from some field where the honey is full of poison wildness, of insanity and nightmare, its body crammed with that over-rich nectar and now it was sleeping the evil out of itself. Brrr. I just shivered.
I think the most significant thing is that Montag's hand seemed to take the book of its own accord. You know, I had such a different experience with this book both times I read it than all of you, apparently. The things I saw when I read it in 2001 while living in Italy and when I read it now after many life-altering trials and heartbreaks was obviously very different... yet in both instances I felt to my core it was about the cloud that envelopes one's mind when one begins to go along with the madding crowd.
I actually wrote this in my book in this first section so as not to forget to share it:
This book is so much less about book burning than about the controlling of ideas; of minds. It is ultimately about the loss of the greatest freedom of all - thought.
Lastly, I heartily disagree with the comment that Bradbury over did it with his position on the television. Few things control the way we think and feel, respond and believe as what we (choose to) ingest through that screen. Just try going without it for a year... when I first read this book, I was in that situation. The passion I experienced, the clarity of thought and action, were so present. Like no other time in my life. And the living I did! The deep connections I made! Wow!
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And: "They were given a new job, as custodians of our peace of mind, the focus of our understandable and rightful dread of being inferior..."
God! How tragic that something as banal as an inferiority complex got society to where it was (and indeed where it actually is, come to that...).
Another eerie thing in this "Information Age" is the comment, "Cram them full of non-combustible data, chock them so damned full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving." Seriously creepy how dead-on he is.
That quote continues, "And they'll be happy because facts of that sort don't change. Don't give them anything slippery like philosophy or sociology to tie things up with. That way lies melancholy." I put this to you: our current school system (in particular regards to areas with poor test scores) with the focus on the aptitude tests does exactly that. It has been shown that there is no effort at achieving understanding, but instead the simple ability to pass the test is all that is taught.
That said, my brother and sister-in-law are teachers. I'm not denigrating any of them. Rather, the system as it is and what it requires of the instructors. What say you to this train of thought?
I had the same disconcerting thought as to the devolution of the discussion on this book of all books turning to video games though there is certainly a connection. I also loved the conclusion that it is about so much more than burning books. I loved all your thoughts there Michele. I want schools to go in the direction of teaching children from day one to be READERS above all else. The three R's as they once were called were called the BASICS for good reason, if those basics are well-set the person is a student for a lifetime and can DO anything and learn anything on his own. A person who can read well and needs to know how-to do something can learn by reading and then investigation how to do it. If his math skills are lacking he can study or find instruction. If he is given instruction in writing and finds the beauty in practicing it he will be cabable of communicating in that fashion.
Any child who leaves school reading well has the ability if continuing to do so to read better and better and to grow in understanding of any and all things, in other words, to drink more and more rather than less and less. This requires being willing to read all topics though and even readers seem focused and compartmentalized today. Is that a problem stemming from the teaching to tests rather than to student levels? Could be as I see it. I even find it in my own life and I was taught well before the scool systems became test oriented. We were held back and there were other "archaic" practices. Are we all too busy with whatever it is that we all keep up with to have that broader knowledge? Still if one doesn't read at all then what is fed to us are those soundbytes which are shorter than commercials once were --heh.
Edited to add: Just in case anyone is interested or thinks it relevant to what I'm ranting about regarding education: I was a K-3 (first and second grades to be exact) teacher for 3 years and a teacher's aide for 15 years(working with teachers in grades k-6).
Michele, your comments are very insightful. I think you add so much to the discussions. I wish you discussed all the books with us! I know sometimes there are lots of other things going on or sometimes the books we were hoping to read aren't chosen. But one of the reasons I love this group and book clubs in general is because it opens me up to reading things I wouldn't have tried otherwise, and to seeing things in ways I wouldn't have thought of otherwise.Like Atonement - I never would have read that on my own and when I did read it, I didn't really like it. Until I read everyone else's comments and saw new things in it based on the insights of others. Then I was able to appreciate it so much more.
This is such a smart bunch of people!
Mod
I had this quote marked to share. It is in reference to Clarisse.Luckily, queer ones like her don't happen oft4en. We know how to nip most of them in the bud, early. You can't build a house without nails and wood. If you don't want a house built, hide the nails and wood. If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that the people worry over it. Peace, Montag. Give the people contests they win by remembering the words to more popular songs or the names of state capitals or how much corn Iowa grew last year. Cram them full of non-combustible data, chock them so damn full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving. And then they'll be happy, because facts of that sort don't change. Don't give them any slippery stuff like philosophy or sociology to tie things up with. That way lies melancholy. Any man who can take a TV wall apart and put it back together again, and most men can, nowadays, is happier than any man who tries to slide rule, measure, and equate the universe, which just won't be measured or equated without making man feel bestial and lonely. I know, I've tried it; to hell with it. so bring on your clubs and parties, your acrobats and magicians, your daredevils, jet cars, motorcycle helicopters, your sex and heroin, more of everything to do with automatic reflex. If the drama is bad, if the film says nothing, if the play is hollow, sting me with the Theremin, loudly. I'll think I'm responding to the play, when it's only a tactile reaction to vibration. But I don't care. I just like solid entertainment.
This is spoken to Montag by Beatty. I think this foreshadows Beatty's action or non-action at a later point in the book. I also found this a chilling reflection of the current state of our own society -- one of my own recent and fairly frequent comments is -- "here's the Roman circus!" -- keep the masses entertained no matter what the entertainment (say the equivalent of throwing the Christians to the lions) and keep them busy NOT thinking so we can do whate'er we please behind the backs of "the Public" who are supposedly in charge of those who run the government. Guess this is obviously a "soapbox" response -- but this truly did resonate for me.
You make an excellent point, Dottie. It's hard to believe how relevant this book right now. I've heard that they are remaking the movie - has anyone else heard that?
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I started watching the movie and then I quit. It was hard for me to feel it was "futuristic" when it was made so long ago and everyone still had TV antennae.
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Love it, Sarah. you know for all the impact this book had on me, I cannot remember at all if I've ever seen the film of it. If I've mentioned seeing it somewhere, I can only say -- "senior moment" -- but I'm thinking that even had I seen it, I would decline a second viewing after this re-reading because this book shook me to my very roots in a very personal way -- more so than any of the other two times (at least) that I have read it. It was scarier this time around than ever! I love that it still had such power. Says volumes about the subject matter, the approach and the writing itself, in my opinion.
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Well the whole opening credit sequence of the movie is a montage of millions of TV antennae. I'm sure it's because of the Walls O' TV but it was distracting to me. Especially since as of next February TV antennae won't even work anymore. So it wasn't even like I saw an antenna in the background and got distracted. It was very in-your-face.
Michele -- you missed that I'm saying exactly what you are saying -- this one hit me like a ton of bricks the first time I encountered it and again the next time but this time I found it had rather than lessened in the impact as one might think it had multiplied. You and I are in perfect agreement on this book. And as I say in my review of it -- it was the only Bradbury I read for many years simply because it was such a strong book for me and I couldn't imagine any others of his would be that good -- I was wrong, of course, Dandelion Wine is one of most beloved books and I've also come under the spell of Something Wicked This Way Comes -- but these are VERY different in my opinion from Fahrenheit 451.
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Dottie... I was agreeing with YOU. LOL I'm so glad you feel the same way.
Oh. Okay. Glad we cleared that up -- heh!Yes, Bradbury wrote Something Wicked This Way Comes.
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ah, some really great comments, again. Thanks, all. I'm just reading this now. I forgot how short it is. But I'm really enjoying it, even more than the first time around I think. And whoever said that it has gained in relevance over time and that Bradbury was visionary - spot on remarks. nice comparison to Brave New World as well.I also agree that this book is much more about the degradation of thought than about book censorship. and certainly not all books are banned in the story, just the ones that might potentially elicit any kind of deep thought. Millie has her scripts for instance. I think that's an important distinction as I tend to feel that not all books make one think. Some books are definitely at a more cerebral level than others, and one way that's accomplished is through writing technique.
I love Bradbury's writing style. In this section for example, at the beginning, I love how much you have to read between the lines to know what's going on. I love how much atmosphere he creates through the use of metaphor. At face value it could be gibberish, but this is truly a thinking person's book. you have to fully digest the words and sentences to know what's going on.
on another note, someone quoted Beatty saying that the public should not have to deal with realities like war, yet when Montag and fellow fireman are playing cards at the firehouse, a story comes on the radio about impending war. thought this was an interesting discrepancy as well.
Dottie, couldn't agree more about your comments regarding the importance of teaching reading. Literacy is one of the "causes" I like to champion the most.Also there were comments about how empty talk is these days. I have a really hard time finding people who read as much as I do in my town and as a consequence, conversation topics tend to be limited and I tend to stay home a lot. Might also explain why the public library here is so small and why there are no bookstores to speak of. My last coworker told me on several occasions that he hated books and thought they were the worst gifts any one could give. We didn't really see eye to eye.
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I can't belive I've never read this. We didn't read anything important in my high school!