The Book of Mormon
discussion
Is Mormonism a form of Christianity?
I know that Jesus Christ is my savior. Because He died, I can live with Him forever if I turn my heart to Him and live as He did. I know that He loves us all. It's simple. Christianity accepts Christ as their savior. I accept Christ as my savior. Therefore, I am a Christian. And, I'm a Mormon.
Speaking theologically I like Alyssa's comment a lot, as a life long UU who never internalized a creed I find her characterization very satisfying. But more to the point, in a society that claims its tolerance does the question even make sense?
Mormons are definitely Christians. We believe Jesus Christ is the head of the church which is named after Him, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
That is only one opinion!
There are a LOT more opinions.
Monkey wrote: "True believers,Let's do a thought experiment. Let's imagine that an alien from Alpha Centauri has landed, and meets up with some Mormon missionaries (if they haven't made it to Alpha Centauri ye..."
Reading all these comments has been interesting.
To answer the question posed, yes. We are considered Christians by worldly definition, which is undeniable proof for you.
Monkey, are you an atheist?
And what is the worldly definition of Christianity exactly?
Paul wrote: "And what is the worldly definition of Christianity exactly?"Christian: (adj) following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ
BJ wrote: "There are a LOT more opinions."But they are only opinions.
Where are the facts?
BJ wrote: "Paul wrote: "And what is the worldly definition of Christianity exactly?"
Christian: (adj) following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ"
The Jesus Christ the Mormons believe in is an entirely different character than the Jesus Christ that is portrayed in the New Testament.
Christian: (adj) following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ"
The Jesus Christ the Mormons believe in is an entirely different character than the Jesus Christ that is portrayed in the New Testament.
Weird, since Mormons use both the Book of Mormon AND the Bible....
Sara ♥ wrote: "Weird, since Mormons use both the Book of Mormon AND the Bible...."
No they don't. Stop lying.
No they don't. Stop lying.
Really? Huh. I guess I've been being a Mormon wrong my entire 29 years of life then!http://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=en...
Paul wrote: "Sara ♥ wrote: "Weird, since Mormons use both the Book of Mormon AND the Bible...."No they don't. Stop lying."
Yes we do! We also use two more volumes of scripture: The Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants.
So you believe that Jesus, after he was crucified, simply forgave the people who condemned him to die and went on to heaven peacefully? Do you also believe that Jesus was never married?
Ho about the ten commandments; how do you adhere to those?
And how about false prophets? You seem to have no shortage of those.
Ho about the ten commandments; how do you adhere to those?
And how about false prophets? You seem to have no shortage of those.
1) I don't know what you're getting at here... It says in Luke 23:33-34 (KJV): "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." But besides that, I'd venture to say that Jesus was the most forgiving person that ever lived, so YES, he forgave the people, and asked His Father to forgive them as well. Whether God did so or not... *shrugs* I wouldn't presume to know God's mind, but I suppose it depended on whether or not the people were repentant! As for going "on to heaven peacefully"? Ummm... it's not like He was a sinner or something. Why wouldn't he go on to heaven peacefully?2) There's nothing in the Bible (or any of the other scriptures we Mormons use) that indicates whether Jesus was married or not and the LDS Church doesn't teach one way or the other. It's my understanding of ancient times that in order to be an ordained rabbi, one had to be married, so I *personally* think He was. I do NOT however, believe He had children... That's way too Da Vinci Code for me!
3) HOW do I adhere to the Ten Commandments? Uhhh.... the same way as any other Christians? And Jewish people for that matter. They use Genesis through Deuteronomy, right? And the Ten Commandments are in Exodus 20:3-17. By not killing or stealing or bearing false witness or making golden calf statues or coveting my neighbor's husband. In fact, I'd say (pridefully... gotta work on that!) that we adhere to them better than many others! Mormons are taught to keep the Sabbath Day Holy, where most people do whatever the heck they want to on the Sabbath.
4) Have you ever stopped to wonder why there were prophets in olden times but not today? Has God left us alone to wander or wonder what we're supposed to be doing without a man on earth to guide the people of God? Because He hasn't! There's a prophet today! He's the prophet of the whole earth, so he's your prophet as much as mine, even if you don't believe he's a real one! :)
But besides that, what's the deal? (I say that with honest curiosity, not in a rude way!) Most Mormons are good people who are just trying to live good lives. (There are, of course, duds of all religions, genders, colors, nationalities, etc., etc., etc., so I don't dare say ALL of them!) Why is there always so much ado about Mormons believing a bit differently than other Christians? If we Mormons want to call ourselves Christian or insist that we ARE Christian, why do so many people take exception to that? What are we doing that is so un-Christlike that people are offended that we are grouped with them?
On another note, you rated the Book of Mormon 1 star. Have you read it then? If so, what did you think of 3rd Book of Nephi? And, more specifically, what did you think of Jesus as He was portrayed in Chapters 11-26? That's the best part of the whole book!
Benjamin wrote: "Right, so if you don’t think that Jesus or the Holy Ghost are divine what meaning does the atonement have in your view? Was Jesus’ death merely a good example, or perhaps you view Christ as merely being the first one to move from manhood to godhood assuming you affirm theosis?"I've been reading back a few pages, and found this comment that I'd like to address.
First, I'd like to say that I'm only 29, and I would never presume to know everything about anything, but I'd like to talk about the Atonement in greater detail than I've seen it discussed on here.
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that they are three separate beings who work together to accomplish a single goal: to help as many of God's children return to live with Him as possible. All three are divine (sometimes they are referred to as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost), but have individual roles to fulfill. In our church, leadership is generally in "presidencies" with a president, 1st counselor, and 2nd counselor. I like to think of them that way: God is the President, Christ the 1st Counselor, and the Holy Ghost the 2nd Counselor, all working together to oversee all of us!
We believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (without a physical body) that can speak to your spirit (to your heart and mind) to give you peace, answers to prayers, warnings, etc.
Jesus Christ, however... He is central to EVERYTHING we believe. He WAS a great man, but He is also the Savior of the World. We believe that without Jesus Christ and His Atonement for mankind, we would all be lost forever. It is only through Christ Jesus that we are able to live with God again, if we are faithful and obedient to God's commandments.
In order to really understand the significance of Christ's Atonement as Mormon's believe in it, it's necessary to talk about Adam's fall from the Garden of Eden. We believe that when Adam and Even were in the garden, they were innocent and immortal. They didn't know right from wrong and therefore didn't have enough knowledge to willfully commit sin.. AND they couldn't die. But when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they became "as gods, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:5) AND they became mortal and would "surely die" (Genesis 3:4). We believe that in order to live with God again we must (1) have a perfected immortal body and (2) be clean (without sin). So Adam's fall presented two problems: (1) Adam and Eve were going to die, their spirits separated from their bodies forever and (2) they were going to be able to sin, and thus be unable to live in God's presence (where no unclean thing can dwell).
Okay, back to Jesus: We believe that Jesus Christ chose to come to Earth to be our Savior. He was the biological son of Heavenly Father, and thus part deity. Jesus's death was NOT merely a good example. We believe a bit differently about the Atonement than other Christians. The accounts in the Bible are pretty vague, actually, but the references are Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42. But according to more modern revelation that we have, we believe that in the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ suffered for the sins of all mankind. We believe that is why He prayed: "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." We believe that the pain and agony of it was something only He could have withstood, because of the God part of his makeup. I mean it respectfully when I say: anyone can be crucified (although, OUCH!!), but no one else would have had the strength to face what Christ went through in the Garden of Gethsemane. We believe that what Christ did for us there gives us the ability to, to use the Protestant vernacular, "accept Christ as our personal Savior", repent when we sin, and be forgiven and made clean.
We believe that Christ could have stopped the men from crucifying Him, but that He allowed Himself to be killed. But the more significant part was that because he was part diety, He was able to resurrect Himself after the 3rd day in the tomb. He laid down His own life and picked it up again. He was the first person resurrected, and, "in Christ shall all be made alive." (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23) We believe that all people who ever live on the earth will be resurrected. Their bodies and spirits will be reunited after this life.
So, because of Christ's Resurrection ALL that live on the earth will also be resurrected, and the 1st problem is overcome. And because Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, we have the ABILITY to repent and overcome the 2nd problem. It is a CHOICE however. It's conditional upon our own repentance.
There is a verse in the Book of Mormon that sums it up very nicely: 2 Nephi 25:23: "For we labor diligently... to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." We believe that being a Christian is so much more than just claiming that we believe in Christ. We must be baptized and we must do good works. We must try to love and serve others as Christ would do and share the good word of the gospel with others. But in the end, our words and works will not get us into heaven, but Christ's mercy and grace. Our works are only a physical manifestation of our inner spirituality: a sign of our commitment to Christ. Of course, a person could just be faking it... But God knows our hearts, and He will be the judge in the end.
Anyway, that was really long, but my point is that when we Mormons say we are Christian, we are not merely saying that we know Christ was a great teacher that lived 2000 years ago (although He was). We are saying that we believe in Jesus Christ and His power to save us. We believe a lot of stuff, but He is the center of EVERYTHING we believe, everything we ARE. We would be completely lost without Him!
The term "Mormon" is used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Devero wrote: "BJ wrote: "There are a LOT more opinions."But they are only opinions.
Where are the facts?"
mormon.org
Sara ♥ wrote: "1) I don't know what you're getting at here... It says in Luke 23:33-34 (KJV): "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on..."
In the book of Mormon there was devastation and death in the midst of darkness for three days (not hours) as punishment for the death Christ had given himself to. That's not the forgiving Christ who I was taught to respect nor is it the Christ that the New Testament spoke of.
Sara ♥ wrote: "2) There's nothing in the Bible (or any of the other scriptures we Mormons use) that indicates whether Jesus was married or not and the LDS Church doesn't teach one way or the other."
I know the bible doesn't mention Jesus being married, but that didn't keep Brigham Young and several others from the LDS from preaching that he was married to several women and claimed it was a sin to not marry more than one woman.
Sara ♥ wrote: "In fact, I'd say (pridefully... gotta work on that!) that we adhere to them better than many others!"
And there it is; the truth rearing it's head. Mormons are not only Christians, but they are better than any other christian.
It even says so in the book of Mormon. The LDS is the only true way to god and all other avenues are wrong.
This is what makes your religion more cult than anything else. You don't adhere to a god; you bow to specific sect. You cannot rightfully call yourselves Christians when your beliefs are the handy work of a false prophet.
In the book of Mormon there was devastation and death in the midst of darkness for three days (not hours) as punishment for the death Christ had given himself to. That's not the forgiving Christ who I was taught to respect nor is it the Christ that the New Testament spoke of.
Sara ♥ wrote: "2) There's nothing in the Bible (or any of the other scriptures we Mormons use) that indicates whether Jesus was married or not and the LDS Church doesn't teach one way or the other."
I know the bible doesn't mention Jesus being married, but that didn't keep Brigham Young and several others from the LDS from preaching that he was married to several women and claimed it was a sin to not marry more than one woman.
Sara ♥ wrote: "In fact, I'd say (pridefully... gotta work on that!) that we adhere to them better than many others!"
And there it is; the truth rearing it's head. Mormons are not only Christians, but they are better than any other christian.
It even says so in the book of Mormon. The LDS is the only true way to god and all other avenues are wrong.
This is what makes your religion more cult than anything else. You don't adhere to a god; you bow to specific sect. You cannot rightfully call yourselves Christians when your beliefs are the handy work of a false prophet.
(1) Oh, I see now. I knew you were being sneaky. Good angle, there! But Mormons believe that Old Testament Jehovah was premortal Christ... and MAN. Have you read the Old Testament? Killing off a few wicked people who were given 38 years to repent and change their ways just really doesn't phase me. How often did that sort of thing happen in the Old Testament? "Repent or you'll be destroyed" and then they didn't and they were.Plus, there's a difference here. In the account you brought up, Jesus is forgiving the people for something specific they did TO HIM. Like if I forgave someone for holding me hostage while they robbed a bank. He didn't give them blanket forgiveness for all their sins. We can forgive people for hurting us, but people have to repent to have God forgive their sins. And the wicked people living in the Americas were given COMPLETELY fair warning: Repent or you'll be destroyed. They didn't and they were.
Isn't that a fairly common idea? That bad things happen to people because of something they did? That's true sometimes, and sometimes bad things just happen because they do.
(2) Church leaders are allowed to draw their own conclusions just like the rest of us, but you have to look at the context. In what SETTING did Brigham Young say that stuff? Because I'm 99% sure that IF he said it, he was expressing his OPINION. (Which, sorry Brigham Young, I don't agree with. AT ALL.) We don't believe that our prophets and other Church leaders are perfect; they're human, just like the rest of us. And they're wrong sometimes. We hold them in high regard, but they're still human.
(3) Paul wrote: "Sara ♥ wrote: "This is what makes your religion more cult than anything else. You don't adhere to a god; you bow to specific sect." I don't understand what "you bow to specific sect" means. Can you explain that?
I remember the very first time someone told me my beloved religion was a cult. I was in 7th grade. I still don't understand the term being applied to our Church. There are 12 million of us and we've been around for 183 years. Sure, we may have seemed quite cultish in the early days, but don't you think we've surpassed "cult" phase now? I Wikipedia'd the term though, and it makes a lot more sense now. Perhaps we need to hit 200 years to not be considered a "new religious movement"? Or there's this part: "Usage of the word has been controversial. One reason is that the word "cult" (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition." See? Much more sense. After you look up "ad hominem" that is...
Anyway, back to your ... whatever you want to call it. Argument? That's always bugged me about Mormons: some definitely tend toward holier-than-thou-ness. I try my best not to be that way, because no one likes those people, even those of us on "the inside"... Anyway, we don't believe that we are, personally, better than others. God is no respecter of persons. He loves each of us equally and we are each of immense worth to Him. I'm no better than anyone else.
But you're absolutely correct that we believe that our way is the only way. Any Mormon who tells you differently is pandering. Other Churches have truth and light, and they try their very best to help people live good, Christlike lives, and that is SO WONDERFUL. But it's not enough. In order to receive all that God has, Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom, there are very specific acts, (ordinances) that are required for salvation. Baptism is the first. Just as Jesus Christ was baptized by immersion by a man with the priesthood (remember John's father was Zacharias, the temple priest, and priesthood was patriarchal back then), we have to be, too. After Christ died and the Apostles were killed off, the priesthood authority as Christ established it in His church, was lost. Without it, those ordinances aren't valid. And YES, I realize how bold a statement that is: baptisms for over 1000 years, not valid. That's why temple work is so important. We've got some serious time to make up! (By the way, have you ever read 1 Corinthians 15:29? What do you make of that?)
They're bold claims, certainly. But when did God ever say the way back to Him was easy? When did God ever say that we could do whatever we wanted in life if we make sure, on our deathbeds, to say, "I accept Jesus as my personal Savior!"??? Because, I'm sorry, but that's just not how it works. Christ himself had some very specific things to say about this in Matthew 7. Verses 13-14, 21-23 specifically. (And don't you dare point to verse 15 out of the context of verses 16-20!)
v 13-14: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
v 21-23: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
The whole purpose of this earth life is for God to test us to see if we'll do what HE wants instead of us doing whatever WE want.His way isn't easy and certainly isn't always comfortable. You may not even always like it, because it is almost always harder that other ways. But it is GOD'S way and it's the ONLY way. I think that's the opposite of what you were saying. We don't "adhere to a god," we adhere to God. There's only the one, and we try our best to do what He wants.
Verses 15-20 really are good though. There's those false prophets again! But "Ye shall know them by their fruits... A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (v 16,18)
What kind of fruit is our Church bringing forth? What kind of people does it produce? What kinds of good works does it sponsor? And don't Prop 8 me. Try this one instead: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article....
Why can't we prop 8 you? You ask what kind of fruit is you church bringing forth, why is only the good fruit relevant? Why is the divisive hateful fruit that result in mormon families ostrascizing homosexual family members not, Who are often young and subsequently homeless? Why is the oppression of women not relevant? Why is the inclusion of African Americans in 1978 and the exclusion not relevant fruit? The posthumous baptism of non-mormons?
Sara, how is stating facts being sneaky? That's a strange outlook to have.
Yes, I know you believe that god was a man and not always a spirit. That's another thing that contradicts your claim to Christianity.
The old testament has no place in this discussion and the fact that you are bring it up speaks volumes. Jesus not taking revenge on the people after his crucifixion further showed his patience and love for us, but Joseph Smith making Jesus a vengeful spirit after death changes the character that he was supposed to be and thus negates the idea that he sacrificed himself. In order to be a christian one would have to know Christ, and Mr. Smith knew a lot of things about coning and stealing and being a racist, but he in the end he didn't know the true character of Christ and the BoM shows this.
How is Mr. Young stating that Jesus was married to multiple women as if it was a matter of fact simply him stating an opinion? And how exactly was this conclusion drawn in context when you yourself said that there is no mention of his married life in either book?
I had read that Brigham Young had said this while preaching to his congregation. He's also not the only prophet to have made this claim. Joseph Smith, your leader and creator of your church started this non-sense. Being Mormon, you should know this.
So you think the only things that keep you from being a cult is numbers and age? Perhaps you should have looked up the definition instead of going to Wikipedia?
Now, that 12 million number... does that include the dead people your church has baptized, like the holocaust victims, Adolf Hitler, and Elvis Presley?
Your faith was started by a man who conned some poor fool into helping him write a book as a sequel to a bigger religion, called it the one and true way while embracing glaring differences of that said faith and making himself into a key to get into the magic land after death.
In your mind, not only are you Christians, but you are better Christians than anyone else who claims to be because your faith, that was started thousands of years after Christianity is one and true way. Despite the fact that your book specifically claims that you have to swear to Joseph Smith, a man and by Christian definition, a false prophet, along with god and Jesus.
Most religions are cults. It's just that very few people want to admit it.
Don't prop 8 you? Oh, I get it. We can only discuss the good things that the Mormons do and not the bad, right? Sure. Because they are the only church who does any kind of charity work, and it's strictly from the kindness of their hearts and not an attempt to gain numbers or to keep your tax free status.
Spare me.
Your church is a cult that was born out of misogynists, homophobes, and racists, and the only reason why some of your practices have changed was and is out of a need to interrogate.
If it wasn't for Utah's need for state-ship, you would be one of six wives to some asshole who looks at you as a baby factory.
If it wasn't for the civil rights movement and the church being in danger of losing its tax-exempt status over discrimination, black men would still not be allowed to join the priesthood.
And I am going to prop 8 you, because if it wasn't for prop 8 blowing up in your church's face so badly they would have fought open gays being allowed in the Boy scouts of America, a group that your church took over and used as a tool of discrimination against homosexuals.
Yes, I know you believe that god was a man and not always a spirit. That's another thing that contradicts your claim to Christianity.
The old testament has no place in this discussion and the fact that you are bring it up speaks volumes. Jesus not taking revenge on the people after his crucifixion further showed his patience and love for us, but Joseph Smith making Jesus a vengeful spirit after death changes the character that he was supposed to be and thus negates the idea that he sacrificed himself. In order to be a christian one would have to know Christ, and Mr. Smith knew a lot of things about coning and stealing and being a racist, but he in the end he didn't know the true character of Christ and the BoM shows this.
How is Mr. Young stating that Jesus was married to multiple women as if it was a matter of fact simply him stating an opinion? And how exactly was this conclusion drawn in context when you yourself said that there is no mention of his married life in either book?
I had read that Brigham Young had said this while preaching to his congregation. He's also not the only prophet to have made this claim. Joseph Smith, your leader and creator of your church started this non-sense. Being Mormon, you should know this.
So you think the only things that keep you from being a cult is numbers and age? Perhaps you should have looked up the definition instead of going to Wikipedia?
Now, that 12 million number... does that include the dead people your church has baptized, like the holocaust victims, Adolf Hitler, and Elvis Presley?
Your faith was started by a man who conned some poor fool into helping him write a book as a sequel to a bigger religion, called it the one and true way while embracing glaring differences of that said faith and making himself into a key to get into the magic land after death.
In your mind, not only are you Christians, but you are better Christians than anyone else who claims to be because your faith, that was started thousands of years after Christianity is one and true way. Despite the fact that your book specifically claims that you have to swear to Joseph Smith, a man and by Christian definition, a false prophet, along with god and Jesus.
Most religions are cults. It's just that very few people want to admit it.
Don't prop 8 you? Oh, I get it. We can only discuss the good things that the Mormons do and not the bad, right? Sure. Because they are the only church who does any kind of charity work, and it's strictly from the kindness of their hearts and not an attempt to gain numbers or to keep your tax free status.
Spare me.
Your church is a cult that was born out of misogynists, homophobes, and racists, and the only reason why some of your practices have changed was and is out of a need to interrogate.
If it wasn't for Utah's need for state-ship, you would be one of six wives to some asshole who looks at you as a baby factory.
If it wasn't for the civil rights movement and the church being in danger of losing its tax-exempt status over discrimination, black men would still not be allowed to join the priesthood.
And I am going to prop 8 you, because if it wasn't for prop 8 blowing up in your church's face so badly they would have fought open gays being allowed in the Boy scouts of America, a group that your church took over and used as a tool of discrimination against homosexuals.
BJ wrote: "Devero wrote: "BJ wrote: "There are a LOT more opinions."But they are only opinions.
Where are the facts?"
mormon.org"
LOL
Wow. That escalated quickly and got very very mean! I'm glad I don't know you people in real life! I'd be afraid to sleep at night for fear that my home would be burned to the ground.I'm not afraid to talk about Prop 8. I've just heard so much about it lately I want to scream. When my friends post things that essentially call me a homophobic hate-filled bigot, when they KNOW me and have first-hand knowledge of how I act to and around gay people, I'm sorry, but that doesn't give me very high hopes for YOU.
I know that opposing the legalization of gay marriage can come off looking homophobic and so on, and MAN, with some of those people they show on the news picketing, I'd probably draw similar conclusions. What hurts is that no one seems AT ALL interested in WHY. No one even PAUSES for a SECOND to think, "Wait a minute. I KNOW Sara. She's a very very nice person! She always tries to make other people feel happy and included! She even hunted down fake ground beef to make us vegetarian taco dip that one time because she knew a couple of us were vegetarian!" Nope. This makes me incredibly sad.
You don't know me. Why would you even bother to try to understand? *shrugs*
Way to personalize things Sarah, we don't know you, we aren't discussing you as such. We are discussing the mormon faith and it's tenets. So the story about the dip, really, who cares. Mean? really, you're trying only to include the good fruit and brush the bad under the carpet, and we didn't comply. That's mean? not agreeing with you is mean?I don't know if your if your friends are here, perhaps you'd be better of telling your beef to them.
Why do you oppose gay marriage what reason could you give that legitmises the denial of equal rights to people that isn't based on your faith? And then how can you justify the forcing of your personal belief onto others, legislating it? And if you don't feel this way, why do you maintain a active membership to an organisation which does?
I have no doubt you are a nice person.
Happy and included? if all it took was vegetarian dip... it might include being able to marry the person you love regardless of sex... equal rights under the law, that makes me feel included...
Devero wrote: "BJ wrote: "There are a LOT more opinions."But they are only opinions.
Where are the facts?"
Articles of Faith:
1 We believe in God, The Eternal Father, and in his son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administer the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelations, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (The new Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally on the Earth; and, that the Earth will be renewed and receive its paradisaical glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men, in deed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--we believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and we hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
-Joseph Smith, Jr.
Articles of Faith are no facts at all.
Okay, so if you get down to it, NO religion is fact-based. At some point, you have to step off the edge of the material and adopt a faith in order to be religious.That said, I once, many years ago, followed my Mormon pals to BYU. Even Mormons who wanted me to go with them also cautioned me that it might be a mistake, but I was a kid with squeaky clean habits who did not mind learning about alternative ideas to my own, and I was desperate to get out of the house.
Nevertheless, I was a little shocked (being religious at the time) at what I perceived to be the very distinctly different ideas between the King James Bible and the Book of Mormon. I was really surprised, for example, to learn that if I were to convert to the church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints and do a really great job as a Mormon, I could go to a different level of heaven (the Celestial Kingdom) where I would actually become a god. Doesn't bother me now because I am an Atheist, but at the time, I regarded this as sacrilege.
I made plans to return home and start college over again, but stuck around just long enough to write a stellar essay for my required Book of Mormon class (don't know if it's required for freshmen now, but it was then), because everyone who rejected this religion was said to "not understand it", and I wanted to demonstrate that I understood it just fine.
Having said this much, I will also say that I wrote a note to that effect at the bottom of the last page, and I still received an A+ on my paper. The guy was fair.
A lot of years have passed, and now, I think that each religious individual should be regarded as exactly what he or she says s/he is. So if the LDS Church says it is Christian, then those of us who are not LDS can choose to disagree with their belief system, but we also have to accept that they are interpreting the Bible very differently than most Protestant denominations, and surely differently than Roman or Orthodox Catholics also.
This isn't that hard to wrap your head around when you start trying on particular portions of the Bible that you always assumed to be literal, as metaphor. See what I mean? And there are various sectors of Christianity that consider that some of the Bible was meant for the time in which it was written only. Once you decide to go there, you throw a whole lot of stuff up in the air and it's open to interpretation.
When I left to go home, I could hardly shake the dirt from my shoes or the scent from my nostrils fast enough. If you know much about this religion and its politics, and consider that I was just becoming attached to the principles involved in Marxism, you'll see what I mean. How does a feminist live in that milieu? How does an advocate for gay rights dwell there? A trade unionist? No, I was glad to get out, and I don't mean to sound like an apologist for the reactionary political views with which this religion is permeated.
I only mean to say that each of us gets to choose our own name.
The term "Mormon" is a nickname used to refer to a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."Mormons" are indeed Christians. They "believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."
Christianity can be defined as any religion "derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture."
"Mormons" also "believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly."
In keeping with the definition of Christianity and the expressed beliefs of "Mormons", it can be assured that they are a Christian religion, making all of its members Christian.
Members of the LDS Church are to pay "one-tenth of all their interest annually."[1] Every year, each member is asked to meet with the bishop to declare their tithing status: full-tithe payer, partial-tithe payer, or non-tithe payer. Tithing is considered a debt.[2] However, it is also an entrance fee—only full-tithe paying members are allowed to enter the Church's most holy place, the temple, and participate in important saving ordinances. Is this true Sara. I have heard from others that once they stop tithing they are not allowed to enter the temple.
Well actually christianity is considered one of the major religions. I really think calling it a type of religion is a stretch. It works for me that mormans are christians but I have found that many, many 'christians' do not believe that mormans are christians. When I was homeschooling my son the evangelical christians would fight with the mormans over whether they were christians. So while the non christians will accept mormans as christians the mainstream christians do not.
~♥Alyssa♥~ wrote: "Oh, and in another comment, Monkey, you asked why women can't have the priesthood. I used to really struggle with that. But tell me, to be equal, do you have to be exactly the same? Women have diff..."Well actually Alyssa to be equal, no you wouldn't need to be the same as men BUT you would need to have the same opportunities in advancement ( jobs in your church) to be in an 'equal' situation. I believe this is one of the LDS weaknesses that they don't recognize the leadership (and other) capabilities of their women (or minorities). The LDS Church is organized in a hierarchical priesthood structure administered exclusively by caucasion men. Reminds me very much of the catholic church.
I'm sad for you if you believe you have the same opportunity as the men in your church. and I feel doubly sad for your daughters, who are being raised in a tradition where they cannot achieve the same status/jobs as their brothers.
Mjp wrote: "~♥Alyssa♥~ wrote: "Oh, and in another comment, Monkey, you asked why women can't have the priesthood. I used to really struggle with that. But tell me, to be equal, do you have to be exactly the sa..."Actually, women can access the priesthood through their husbands. It's called the Priesthood of Eve;
#1, #2; All priesthood is the same, just different privileges are given in each office:
Deacon,
Teacher,
Priest,
Elder,
High Priest,
Patriarch,
Seventy,
Apostle
I just cringed at your answer Alyssa. I'm happy for you (but mystified) that you're satisfied with the equality in your church.
This is adressed to all those citing geological/dna evidence against the validity of the Book of Mormon.The obvious and most pressing evidence used against the church are these supposed "studies" that demonstrate the lack of middle eastern descent among native american genotype samples. Yes, two studies have shown a complete absence of hebrew descended dna in the native population. Seems like the final nail in the coffin for Mormonism doesn't it? Right? WRONG. There's a little concept called genetic drift. The theory that any genetic scientist can sample a population and determine the precise geographic and phenotypic origins is a radical oversimplification. In fact due to the loss of 90% of the native population during european settlement modern genetic studies have shown that it is statistically impossible to exclude ANY ancestral region from the native american genotype. This sort of preclusion is common. There is no genetic ancestry that indicates ANYONE in africa is descended from the regions of the Bantu Migration, INCLUDING THE PEOPLES NATIVE TO THOSE REGIONS. So you see, any genetic study claiming to disprove the Book of Mormon on the basis that no hebrew ancestry had been found is simply claiming something akin to "there are no four leafed clovers in this field because I haven't found one yet."
Second, there is not a single anachronism in the book of mormon. Here's why:
1. a species of miniature mammoth did live in central america until about 600 B.C.E., well within the range they are mentioned in the book of mormon. Additionally, there are hundreds of examples of pre-columbian native art depictions of elephants.
2. Advanced metallurgy was in fact present among the toltecs but condemned as an action of evil in the toltec religion.
3. Horses! perhaps the greatest archaeological myth of the day is that there were no horses present in the americas until the arrival of the spaniards. However, the modern horse actually began its evolution in the Americas and then backslid into somewhat smaller species around 8000 B.C.E. No one has ever definitively proven that horses were completely extinct in the americas before the year 600 C.E. Again, there are many examples of pre-columbian art that depict horses but appear to have been at least partially defaced.
4. The book of abraham. Ah, the great sticking point for all critics of the church. However, the day the joseph smith papyri were rediscovered the church did in fact publicly announce that the papyri were egyptian funerary texts. It is also a well known fact among the church that joseph smith did NOT translate directly from these papyri. Additionally, the papyri that were possibly translated from were never found. Also, nothing requires that the papyri were written upon by abraham himself. In fact Joseph Smith wrote that he believed the papyri were transcribed from the actual writing of abraham.
So there you are. Those are the classical evidences that "disprove" the book of mormon. I have heard many others and if you have one yourself I'd be happy to address it
Rethink wrote: "This is adressed to all those citing geological/dna evidence against the validity of the Book of Mormon.The obvious and most pressing evidence used against the church are these supposed "studies" ..."
I'm a biologist, and I tell you, Rethink, you wrote absurdity over absurdity.
You are wrong and The Book of Mormon is a false.
All the person in accord with you must light theyr brain.
I can't believe people actually believe the book of mormon. Seriously, it has even less truth than the bible, and that's not high on the truth count either. I'm seriously baffled.
Devero, the "I'm a biologist" response is, unfortunately, a cop-out. If you want to claim my statements as absurdities you will need to cite specific reasoning.
Devero wrote: "Rethink wrote: "This is adressed to all those citing geological/dna evidence against the validity of the Book of Mormon.The obvious and most pressing evidence used against the church are these sup..."
What proof do you have that the Book of Mormon is false?
Not the book, but what is in the book. The information the book hold il false.But a forum is not a place for scientific dimostratio. Search a good lab and go to it for proof.
@Rethink: I don't have time to spent for morons like you. I have studied genetic for real, and manipulated DNA. Read The History and Geography of Human Genes by L.L. Cavalli-Sforza & others for the beginnings, then We can think to discuss!
Cavalli-Sforza focused on gene frequency and he himself pointed out the limitations of using phylogenies, specifically the difficulty of ruling out specific ancestry.Calling me a moron won't make the facts of genetic divergence go away.
Zelda wrote: "I can't believe people actually believe the book of mormon. Seriously, it has even less truth than the bible, and that's not high on the truth count either. I'm seriously baffled."
So if there is such little truth found in the book, then what is the rest of it filled with? Fiction? Would you mind explaining to me where you've read and found areas with "less truth than the bible", or with no truth at all?
So if there is such little truth found in the book, then what is the rest of it filled with? Fiction? Would you mind explaining to me where you've read and found areas with "less truth than the bible", or with no truth at all?
Truth in a philosophical/ethical sense is entirely different than the debate between fact and fiction. The Bible is often allegory (a fact its original authors recognized). Were the parables meant to be factual? NO! They are ethical fables. You often find truth in a work of fiction.
Paul wrote: "Sara ♥ wrote: "Weird, since Mormons use both the Book of Mormon AND the Bible...."No they don't. Stop lying."
Yeah, they do. We also use The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price.
The Doctrine and Covenants is revelations (Most given through the prophet Joseph Smith Jr.) given to General Authorities of the early Church. It tells of the restoration of the Church and the doings of the early Church members.
The Pearl of Great Price is an excerpt of The Book of Moses, The Book of Abraham; papyrus records dug up from the catacombs of Egypt; an exerpt from Matthew, a brief history of Joseph Smith Jr.; from birth to The First Vision and a little afterwards, and The Articles of Faith.
Being a Mormon myself, I believe that we are Christians. Despite popular belief that we aren't, we are. Our belief is centered around Jesus Christ. Right on the front of the Book of Mormon is 'Another Testament of Jesus Christ'. We believe that He is our Savior and Redeemer and that God is our Heavenly Father. We try to pattern our lives after Christ did, to love one another as thyself and to preach His gospel. Need anymore evidence than that?
Yes; it uses some of the same mythology and texts. It's the adopted cousin.
"Being a Follower of Charles Manson myself, I believe that we are Christians. Despite popular belief that we aren't, we are. Our belief is centered around Charles Manson, who is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Right on the front of the Charlie Manson's book is 'Another Testament of Jesus Christ'. We believe that He is our Savior and Redeemer and that God is our Heavenly Father. We try to pattern our lives after Christ did, to love one another as thyself and to preach His gospel. Need anymore evidence than that?"
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I’ve read Dawkins book, its not really impressive, the “critiques” he gives are an absolute joke.
I don’t find those arguments convincing, sorry.