The Book of Mormon
discussion
Is Mormonism a form of Christianity?
I would like to comment as a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints. I am a christian. I believe in Jesus Christ. I know he is our savior. He paid the price for all of us that because He loves us so much. Through Jesus Christ we can return to live with God. With these fundamental beliefs we can say we are christians. There are many different beliefs within christianity, but most definately we believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. I feel these comments do our beliefs an injustice and would love to share what we do believe to anyone who would like to know. They are an amazing blessing in my life.
Jeniel,How can these comments do your belief an injustice? ALL the quotes are from the books held sacred by your church, and the summaries of practices by the Mormon church are all accurate, if general.
You claim you want to "share what we do believe to anyone who would like to know", so here is your chance. Take the eight points listed above and explain how their divergence with the 2000 year-old Christian religion in no way compromises its core message.
Look at it this way: would the Pope say you are Christian? Would a Presbyterian deacon? The beliefs listed above, in some Christians' opinion, would exclude Mormons from being called Christians. Of course, ANYONE can say they are Christian: Is merely believing that Jesus the Nazarene was the Christ predicted by the old testament enough? Would that make Jim Jones or the Branch Dravidians Christian?
My questions were meant to INCREASE the sharing of your true, core beliefs. Help others understand, and explain them to us.
Thanks for your help,
Monkey
Oye... This is a bit bite to chew, but as another member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and as you seem genuinely interested in the answers, I'm going to attempt... First, I have to refute a couple of things you said in your second comment:Monkey wrote: "ALL the quotes are from the books held sacred by your church, and the summaries of practices by the Mormon church are all accurate, if general."
First of all, Journal of Discourses is NOT considered sacred by Mormons. We consider the scriptures, including the Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price to be our sacred texts. Everything else is just supplementary. Also, the leaders of the church are all entitled to their own personal opinions, and unless they said it over the pulpit at General Conference, you've gotta be REALLY careful about what you quote as absolutely-true-(Mormon)-doctrine that and their personal opinion/personal take on issues. Plus, who knows how much of that stuff is taken out of context? (I'm not saying YOU took these deliberately out of context or anything, but quotes go around that are out of context, many of which are already out of context.)
Second, those summary of practices (#6 is the only "practice", the others are beliefs) are KIND OF accurate. The beliefs are about as accurate. I'll go through them one by one. (#4 & 5 are missing, fyi. Feel free to post if you'd like comments on them as well.)
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First, YES we claim to be Christian, because we ARE Christian. Accordian to Merriam-Webster, a Christian is "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ," which we do. We believe in and try to follow the teachings of the same Biblical Jesus Christ that all other Christian denominations profess to believe in and follow—the Christ that was prophesied of by all the Old Testament prophets, whose life is documented in the New Testament. Our other doctrines and beliefs are all subsequent to our CENTRAL belief that the only way for us to have eternal salvation is through Jesus Christ. We believe that he set a perfect example for us to follow, that he atoned for our sins, died for us, and was resurrected and lives again.
I don't know what the Pope would say or a Presbyterian deacon, as I'm not either, don't know what it's like to be either, and couldn't presume to make assumptions about their personal opinions, but we ARE Christian, whether people think that some of our other doctrines negate our belief in Christ or not.
Now on to the specific examples you pointed out:
1. God was once a man who lived on another planet.
The "another planet" part makes this sound really strange and sci-fi, but it's still what we believe! ;) We believe that what we are, God once was and what God is, we can become. Just like how my parents were once young and have grown into adults and then raised me from a child to adulthood, and in about 7 months, my husband and I will start raising a little one of our own. Parents want their children to become everything they are and more, but since God has and is EVERYTHING already, all He can do is want us to become like He is. At some point, he was a mortal man on some other planet doing the same thing we're doing: trying to be the best person we can be.
Yes, there are probably a gazillion other Gods, but I don't worry too much about that, and thinking about that for too long starts to give me a headache... I mean, where did it all begin? Our God had a God who had a God who had a God. My very limited brain capacity can't comprehend too far back. But then, I figure God's got it all figured out... after all, he said (Isaiah 55:8-9): "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Even though I don't understand eternities upon eternities, I trust that God does. Our God is the only one we concern ourselves with—he's the one we pray to and worship. He is our Heavenly Father, the Father of our spirits.
I WOULD like to point out though our belief that we can potentially become like God makes God feel more accessible to me (for example, when I pray, I feel like I'm talking to a real person who knows me and cares about my concerns and needs), it in no way diminishes our belief that he is a holy and divine being who we should worship and sing praises to.
As for the marriage thing, we believe that in order to become as God is, there are certain ordinances we have to perform, like being baptized by immersion like Christ was. Another is eternal marriage, performed by the proper priesthood power and authority to extend the covenant of marriage through this life and into the eternities. Therefore, we can surmise that God IS married. Whether he has more than one wife... he could. He might. We don't know, and I doubt he's going to be telling us anytime soon, so I don't concern myself with it.
2. We are co-eternal with God.
Never thought about it in those words. I like it. Yes, we believe that we have existed for pretty much forever and will exist forever into the future. No, we don't really know what these "intelligences" are—like you said, that's never been defined. We don't really know how it all works yet. I figure someone will clue us in before it's our turn to start making our own spirit children. ;) That's pretty much it on that topic. Oh, one more thing. After we were intelligences, God created us spiritually, and we lived with God for a while before we came to earth. So when Mormons think of what was going on before we were born to our parents here on earth, we essentially picture us hanging out as spirit people in our "premortal" life with God, waiting for our turn to come down to earth. At some point, my parents decided to have a baby and it was finally my turn, so my spirit that had been hanging out for who knows how long entered my physical body, and BAM! Here I am.
3. The origin of Jesus Christ.
Oye! We DO believe that Jesus Christ was literally God's son, but we also believe that Mary WAS INDEED a virgin when she gave birth. We don't know how exactly she conceived, other than what it says in the Bible. Luke 1:34-35: "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." How exactly that happened? Heck if I know. I know God didn't literally have sex with Mary, because (1) that negates the virgin thing and (2) sex outside of marriage? That's a big no-no. I DO know that God understands science a heck of a lot better than we do, and I'm pretty sure he could figure out a way to pass on his genetic code without violating Mary.
BUT the idea that Jesus Christ was half God is really important to our beliefs because we believe that this quality of Christ is what enabled him to do the things he did: live perfectly even from a young young age (Teaching in the temple at age 12? Holy cow! That's some God-like understanding for a pre-teen!), fasting for 40 days and 40 nights (impossible for us regular types), withstand the pain and agony of atoning for our sins. We also believe that he ALLOWED himself to be killed and then used his own power to bring himself back from the dead (resurrection), which he couldn't have done without being half-God. Jesus Christ was more than just a great teacher. He's the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the World. We believe that he was the most valiant of all of God's spirit children, but he still need the extra power to pull the difficult jobs he had to do in his lifetime.
6. Saving dead ancestors.
Wow! You didn't say much here, but that's okay. I can elaborate. Mormons believe in temples, yes. "Handshakes and passwords" makes me giggle, but it's ESSENTIALLY true. We call them... according to Brigham Young, as quoted in The Holy Temple by Elder Boyd K. Packer, "key words, signs, and tokens." So, like I was saying up in #1, we believe that there are certain ordinances that each of us much participate in in order to be able to become like God. Baptism, Confirmation (or receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost), Priesthood Ordination for guys, and then the temple ordinances: Washing and Anointing (see Exodus 29:4,7-8), Endowment (essentially making further covenants with God that we'll obey him and stuff), Marriage, and being "Sealed" (or eternally linked) to our Families—ancestors and posterity.
We believe that EVERYONE must take part in these ordinances. But there are a heck of a lot of people who die without knowing that, and it certainly isn't very fair that people who lived in the dark ages, when there weren't any temples on the earth at all to be totally screwed over (or for the people who live and die NOW who don't know, for that matter), so we do this work by proxy. In case you're wondering where the heck we pulled that idea from, there's a precedent in the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, where Paul writes to the church members in Corinth: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" The term "Mormon" is just a title. We want them to have the ordinances.
7. Adam is God.
WHAT?? I don't know what Brigham Young (and Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow) accidentally inhaled before saying that, but that is SO BOGUS. I'm trying to think of how that could possibly make sense, and I'm coming up so blank, it's like a vacuum in my head. But that's Journal of Discourses for you. There's all SORTS of crazy stuff in there!
What I think got confused: We believe that Jesus Christ created the earth under the direction of God, and we believe that other people helped him (after all, creating a world's a big job for just one person!), and one of those people was Adam. We don't really know who else, specifically, helped. Probably people like Abraham and Moses and the other prophets throughout the ages—the most noble spirit children of God. We believe that Adam was the first man on earth, placed in the Garden of Eden like Genesis says... but he's definitely NOT God. In Genesis 3, God is talking to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden... and if they were the same person.... Yeah, it just doesn't work.
(Ran out of room! Man... I'm talkative today! ;) )8. LDS leaders have taught that Jesus is a polygamist.
Some people theorize that that wedding Jesus Christ was attending at Cana (see John 2) was, in fact his OWN wedding, but we don't know that for sure. We don't have any extra insight into that than what's in the Bible. I'd say that because of our belief that one must be married to become like God and because Jesus Christ was a perfect example for us to follow, I'm 95% sure he was probably married. I'm betting on Mary Magdalene, myself, but that's the doctrine of Sara... ;) Plus, according to Jewish tradition, in order to be ordained to minister to the people, an man had to be 30 years old (which is why Jesus waited so long to make it official and only had 3 years), and had to be married. So again, it makes sense. As for the polygamy thing. Maybe... but it wasn't socially accepted back then. Of course, Jesus did a lot of things that weren't necessarily PC... Healing people on the Sabbath! Forsooth! :)
But again, we don't know. The Church hasn't said anything official. It's not in any of the manuals teachers teach from or anything. And as for the children. OYE! Could you imagine? Little kids running around being a quarter God? I'm thinking NOT. That would just be messy! (We've got nothing official on this either, though, but it's just SO Da Vinci Code, you know?)
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Monkey wrote: "With these major differences at the very root of Mormonism, should this book still be considered a Christian text? "
Most of those things ARE doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but our most important and CENTRAL belief is in Jesus Christ. Whether or not there are a bazillion Gods or not is NOT important, but Christ IS. We believe that without Jesus Christ, none of the rest of it would be possible. None of us can be perfect on our own—we all need to repent of things we do wrong—and that wouldn't be possible without Christ. Without Him, we'd be totally up the creek without a paddle. Times a million.
I DO also want to say that some of these are pretty DEEP doctrine. If you want to know any more of the BASICS... the most IMPORTANT doctrines of our church, there's a bunch of great information at http://www.mormon.org/. You can get basic doctrines, find a meetinghouse to go to (nothing better than seeing what we're all about for yourself), or chat live with a Mormon missionary online, without the obligation, you know? ;) You can also access all of our scriptures, including the King James version of the Bible at http://scriptures.lds.org/
Let me know if you have any other questions, need clarification, or want to add a #4 or #5... ;)
-Sara
I am grateful to share more. It looks as though Sara beat me to it. She covered it well. I think overall there are foundational doctrines that we believe and sometimes when peripheral teachings are focused on first they sound really out there. Would others call us christian? ...my experience overall has shown that those who know us and our beliefs would. There are often skewed ideas of who we are to the point of people thinking we look weird, aren't allowed to use technology or wear make up or other odd questions I've recieved---which is not true. Since I saw the movie planet 51 last night, I can't help but relate it to that movie. The idea being that people are afraid of the unknown and we often live by that fear. They wouldn't believe the astronaut was peaceful because of their previously imagined image of astronauts taking over the world. That is a major tangent and the movie was alright, but not great so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anyone. But the idea that I feel is a times applicable is that the unknown is often skewed in our minds. So in addition to reading this information I would invite everyone to become familiar with us in another form. Why not attend a meeting? Everyone is welcome and if you don't know where a church is you can locate it at mormon.org and by clicking on "find a meetinghouse". There is more information about what to expect on the website as well. Or talk with a member of our faith. Some items I would like to reiterate is that we do believe God is our Heavenly Father. He does want to offer us all that He has. With that idea though we still hold the first of the 10 commandments to be in force, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3) There may be many Gods or we may in this life incorrectly uphold other things in higher priority above God, but we believe in one God in which we reverance. He loves us. Because he loves us, he provided a plan for us to return to live with Him someday. Central to that plan is Jesus Christ. It is only through Jesus Christ that we may be clean and live forever with God again. We believe in prophets(men called of God and given authority by Him) of old in the Bible that testified of Jesus Christ as we believe in prophets today. In the words found in a proclamation by the church called, "The Living Christ" they state, "we offer our testimony of the virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth. He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New....He is the light, the life and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son." I hope this helps. If you are unsatisfied with the answers Sara or I have given, I would love to offer more.
Jeniel
Your responses raise several more questions:I went and asked several people I know, (a Catholic priest, a conservative Jewish person and a co-worker, who has an M.A. in Christian Education from a protestant university), and “believing in “a gazillion of other Gods” precludes ANY of these people from considering you a member of ANY Abrahamic faith.
Judaism (which, in case you forgot, is the foundation of Christianity) was founded on monotheism. The Catholic church emphasizes the unique (one-of-a-kind) nature of God and the belief that humans are not “made of the same stuff.” Even the protestant, with a MUCH wider viewpoint, said “Polytheism is an anathema to Christian belief. Monotheism is what separated the Jews, Christians and Muslims from the earlier Babylonian and Sumerian beliefs.”
Question #1: How do you reconcile your polytheistic beliefs with traditional, monotheistic, Abrahamic beliefs?
Quotes from Sarah and Jeniel:
“The "another planet" part makes this sound really strange and sci-fi, but it's still what we believe! ;) We believe that what we are, God once was and what God is, we can become.”
“Yes, there are probably a gazillion other Gods,”
Question #2: So, taking advances in space travel as a given, we can travel to these planets and meet up with gods?
Quote:
“We believe that Jesus Christ created the earth under the direction of God, and we believe that other people helped him (after all, creating a world's a big job for just one person!), and one of those people was Adam”
Question #3: Creating a planet was too big a job for one god? How many does it take?
Quote:
“Whether or not there are a bazillion Gods or not is NOT important,”
Question #4: Really? I find the distinction between Theism and Deism to be very important. You seem to be wavering in your distinctions. Is there One True God, or lots of little ones, like in Hinduism?
Question #5: What about the way women are treated in Mormonism?
Quote: “Baptism, Confirmation (or receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost), Priesthood Ordination for guys..”
Why is the priesthood just for guys? Why do women have to be married to get to heaven? Why are only men allowed to create a planet after they die? Why not women?
Question #6: You are correct when you say that all these details “makes this sound really strange and sci-fi,”. Have you ever heard of Occam’s Razor? If I were to apply Occam’s Razor to Mormonism, what would be the simplest solution to all these questions?
Best wishes,
Monkey
Sawyer,Might I suggest a couple of more books for you?
1. The Gnostic Gospels (also known as "The Nag Hammadi Lexicion") - the Christian bible in the first century. Much more interesting than the Dead Sea scrolls.
2. The Tao te Ching. (Also, the "Diamond Sutra" and, if you have a spare week, the "Mahabharata". If not, just the "Rāmāyaṇa")
3. "The God Delusion" by Dawkins.
Thanks for the reading suggestions.
Best wishes,
Monkey
P.S. Do Mormons baptize and/or endow dead folk like Pol Pot or Charles Starkweather?
Just wanted to say I promise I'll come back and answer your follow-up questions! I just started a new job on Monday, plus being pregnant... I'm just SUPER SUPER tired all the time now! I should have time tomorrow! :)PS - We do everyone's temple work... We figure God can work out all the details as far as communist dictators and serial killers go. Plus, the people we do work for have to ACCEPT the work. They can still choose to reject the gospel/Jesus Christ after this life. We're just performing the ordinances for if they DO accept it, since they're dead and can't participate in the ordinances themselves.
Heehee... This is fun. Good questions! All right. One at a time (except this first one):Question #1: How do you reconcile your polytheistic beliefs with traditional, monotheistic, Abrahamic beliefs? & Question #4: Really? I find the distinction between Theism and Deism to be very important. You seem to be wavering in your distinctions. Is there One True God, or lots of little ones, like in Hinduism?
You quoted me having said, "Whether or not there are a bazillion Gods or not is NOT important," and I'm sticking to that, but I'll try to distinguish better.
We only worship ONE God: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as described in the Holy Bible (and the Book of Mormon, etc). I've never thought of our beliefs as polytheistic, since we don't worship (or know anything about, really) the other Gods that exist out there. We consider ourselves monotheistic since we only worship OUR God — the father of our spirits, in whose image we have been created.
Those other Gods out there? They have their own spirit children who worship them, and while we know they're out there somewhere, we honestly don't even think about them on a regular basis. We're not taught about them (other than every once in a while someone will mention that they logically exist), we don't study them, and we don't worry about them.
But it's definitely not like Hinduism (which I admittedly know VERY little about). We believe that God is an omniscient, omnipotent being, not that there are a bunch of little gods who each have power over certain elements or whatever. I don't know how much that helps... Feel free to ask more follow-up questions.
Question #2: So, taking advances in space travel as a given, we can travel to these planets and meet up with gods?
Ummmm... I have no idea how to answer this question, because it's just so random! Well, first of all, I don't think God (or those other ones) exists on the same plane as us. He's a glorified, Celestial being and we're just mortals. How to explain? Ummm... (You thought the sci-fi was bad? Let's go paranormal for a second!) Okay, so you know how some people believe in ghosts—beings who exist alongside us, who are THERE but you can't see them? Well I don't know about "ghosts," but there are definitely spirits around us—good AND bad. And the reason that we can't see them is because they exist on a spiritual plane and our eyes can only see things that are physical. I think it's the same way with God. We exist in a higher plane than spirits, and God exists in a WAY higher plane than us mere mortals. So even if were knew where God lived, I don't think you'd find Him, because I don't think you'd be able to see Him. And if you COULD, He is such a glorious, brilliant, etc. being, your natural, mortal eyes wouldn't be able to handle seeing His glory.
I suppose by corollary, that would go for other Gods, too. But I have a feeling the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is going to happen before our Space Program advances that far, so I doubt we'll find out...
Question #3: Creating a planet was too big a job for one god? How many does it take?
Oh gosh, no. If God wanted to create the a habitable planet (or a million) all by Himself, I guarantee He could. He's omnipotent after all! But I think the purpose of having Jesus Christ lead that "project" (for lack of a better word) with others' help was probably a learning experience for all of them. One way I think about it is that today, God expects us to help and serve one another. If He WANTED to, he could help each of us all by himself, but then none of the rest of us would learn to become better people, you know? We wouldn't have the opportunity to learn to be selfless and giving and loving and obedient to His commandments and all sorts of other qualities we develop by helping others.
We also believe that the main reason we're on the Earth (the purpose of our lives) is to prove to God that we're willing to do what He asks—show Him that we will obey Him. And the way we show Him is through our actions. I don't see why God would have a different purpose before the Earth was created... So in creating the world: God commanded Jesus Christ and others to go organize the Earth and they obeyed Him, because they were righteous. I also like to think of it in terms of Engineering (since I'm an Engineer) It's like God is the Design Engineer, Christ is the Construction Foreman (guy on site overseeing everything), and the rest of the guys were the hard laborers. ;)
Question #5: What about the way women are treated in Mormonism?
You know, a lot of people have an issue with the way women in the Church are treated... except for the women in the Church (or at least I've never heard any complain...) As a Mormon woman, I don't get what the big deal is. But whatever. I'm going to tackle the priesthood question last and get the other 3 out of the way, since they're non-issues.
Men AND women have to be married to get to heaven. We believe that you cannot be exalted (become a God) without a spouse. So what that basically means is that you can't be a God if you don't have a Goddess, which is why temple marriage is so important—because you need to be sealed to your spouse for ETERNITY, not just "till death do we part," otherwise that marriage isn't going to stick after you're dead... and you wouldn't have someone to be your Goddess.
Who said that only men were allowed to create a planet? I don't know about THAT. Women have duties and responsibilities in the Church, and I don't know why they wouldn't have duties and responsibilities in creating a planet. Although, I have to say (being silly here) that my husband knows WAY more about biology and animals than I do (he's almost done with Vet School). But I'm sure engineering skills will come in handy somehow... I'll put together all of the ark schematics in case we have a Noah on our planet. And the dimensions of the Tabernacle. ;) But yeah, I'm SURE women get involved in that stuff.
Priesthood, priesthood, priesthood. I never know how to answer this question (which is a fairly common one), because saying, "I don't WANT the Priesthood, thank you very much" sounds like a cop-out. And yet it's true. All right. I guess the best way to address this is that men and women are equally important in God's eyes, but we're not exactly the same—we have different inherent qualities and attributes. Men and women have different, but equally important roles to play within the Church and gospel. Men are the priesthood holders and women are mothers.
Women (in general) are naturally more nurturing and caring and "mothering"—that's why we call it "a mother's instinct". They are more likely to reach out and help other people even if it's not the most convenient thing in the universe, more likely to put others (esp. their children) before themselves, etc.
Men (sorry) are more likely to be totally engrossed in work and providing for their family and just more internal, you know? Not as chatty and involved in their kids' lives and stuff. The priesthood is like a little piece of God's power that is entrusted to a man on earth. He can't use that priesthood to bless himself—only to bless others, like his family. So in a way, the priesthood helps men to develop qualities of service and selflessness, etc.
So even though women don't have the priesthood, we are blessed by it. And sometimes it's actually easier for me to access priesthood power that it is for my husband... Ha! And example: My husband holds the priesthood, and if I'm stressed and need a blessing of comfort, he can lay his hands on my head and give me a blessing... But if HE's stressed, he has to go TOTALLY out of his comfort zone and call somebody and ASK FOR HELP. (I know, right?) That kind of blessing is called a "Father's Blessing," though obviously it doesn't ACTUALLY have to be administered by your dad. They're pretty common before school years to bless the kids that are anxious about school. (My dad was out of the country, so my 24-year-old brother gave my sister a blessing at Christmas time before her semester started, for example.)
I hope that helps on that subject.
Question #6: Question #6: You are correct when you say that all these details "makes this sound really strange and sci-fi." Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? If I were to apply Occam's Razor to Mormonism, what would be the simplest solution to all these questions?
Hahaha! I HAVE heard of Occam's Razor. And while the "14th-century logician, theologian, and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham" (Wikipedia), was no doubt a very smart man, I doubt he was anywhere near as intelligent as God. Just saying. I don't know what Occam's Razor would do to Mormonism, but the simplest answer is NOT always the right one. Life is complicated. Women alone are complicated. Perhaps Occam's Razor could apply to men quite often ;) but I'm not sure it should be applied to things in general...
It's funny though, because the basic doctrines of gospel of Jesus Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, etc.) are simple enough to be understood by an 8-year-old, and yet you can go off on all these wild tangents that we've been on, and it gets really complicated. It's simple enough to be understood by a child, yet complicated enough to engage brilliant minds. :) I think that's awesome. I certainly don't know everything, but I love learning.
Anyway, if you have more, throw them out here and I'll see what I can do!
Sara
PS - Speaking of baptizing famous people... My mom's like, "Look and see if Freddie Mercury's work's been done!" Haha! But it's true, some people have had their work done a billion times (maybe 100), like Joseph Smith... And I'm like, "Uhhh... he did that himself while he was alive, so why on EARTH are you wasting your time??" Dorks. Every religion has nut-cases, and we are by NO MEANS exempt! We (individual members) are MOSTLY concerned with making sure our direct family members (ancestors) have had their temple work done, but there are also efforts going on to get names from really old parrish records and church records and do work for EVERYONE. They're gonna need it (if they want it, anyway)! Hitler... Oye... He was an evil, evil man. And the controversy wasn't about the general Jewish population—it was about Holocaust victims. Jewish families didn't want their loved ones who had already been through SO MUCH "dishonored" in that way. And we certainly don't want to offend anyone, so we stopped. Of course... we'll get them during the Millennium. It's just a delay, relay. ;)
Sarah,The "find" function on my browser found the phrase "I don't know" seven times in your responses. It seems to me that a lot of what you are saying is repetition of church dogma without understanding. Try to step back and take a look at the universe that the Mormon church has created: Everyone becoming gods, men and women in separate roles, dead people getting things done to them...
Occam's Razor is more than some old guy ignoring complicated stuff; his point was that things ARE complicated, but the reasons behind them can be very simple. He verbalized an idea that we now know to be true: complex things can have very simple explanations. Look at 9/11 conspiracies: is it easier to believe that the FBI, CIA, NSA, the Executive branch and hundreds of witnesses lied, or that 19 (mostly) Saudi Arabian guys hijacked the airplanes?
In the same way: is it easier to believe that a "lost tribe" wandered to North America (no DNA evidence), founded massive cities (no archeological evidence), left some golden tablets and some magic rocks (again, where are they?) which were found by a convicted con man who found the missing scriptures of Jesus (seriously, READ the Gnostic Gospels) which told him (amongst other things) he could have a bunch of wives...
Or that he made it all up.
TO that end, I will as my LAST question:
WHAT ABOUT THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM? Go on, Wikipedia it...
Question #7 (and final question)
"Is the Book of Abraham a true account of the life of Abraham, or a common Egyptian funeral papayri with none of the text that Joseph Smith claimed it had (and 2000 years too young to be written by Abraham). And if it is NOT a holy book, what does that say about the rest of Joseph Smith's 'translations'?"
Best wishes,
Monkey
Monkey,You know more about "the world's view" of Mormon theology than anyone I know, and I have been a member of the Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints for three decades. I have never been taught many of the theological statements that you make. I have been taught that Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, that resurection is a gift of Grace to all His children, and that joy comes in accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. We often sing a Sabbath hymn before partaking of the emblems of Christ's sacrifice, the bread and water of the Sacrament. The Hymn is called " I Believe in Christ" -- we revere Him, worship Him, and strive to live His teachings as Christian followers of Jesus Christ, our Lord and King.
Christina,The basis of your life, beliefs and everything you base your decisions on is something that must be examined very closely. I spent a few hours on the internet and got the basics of LDS; maybe you should do some research outside the official church answers and then you can believe whole-heartedly with no reservations. Check the references I supplied.
Take the development of the Christian christ, for example. There are many parallels between Jesus and the Egyptian god Osiris (they both were killed, rose from the dead and now judge the dead), Mesopotamian god Tammuz-Adonis (known as "The Shepard"), even the Greek god Dionysus (killed and resurrected)...
Read some books outside the LDS: The Gnostic Gospels, or the holy books from ANY other religion. Take a course at your community college in comparative religions or evolutionary psychology. www.exmormon.org has some different point of views.
Rather than just saying "I believe", you can say "I believe BECAUSE..."
Best wishes,
Monkey
I haven't said anything in a while because I was kinda ticked off that you were observant enough to notice how many times I said "I don't know" (most of which were not in relation to my beliefs, but are just the way I talk... granted, I do say "I don't know" more than the average person, just like I tend to use more ellipses than most people), but you didn't seem observant enough to notice that my name doesn't have an H on the end of it. (We Sara's are very sensitive about that sort of thing, you know...) But about the I don't knows. If I said that about anything important, it's because the Church doesn't teach us every tiny detail about every single thing in the entire universe. Some things are very important for us to understand—basic principles of the gospel, like faith, repentance, the Savior's Atonement, prayer, etc., and some things are just NOT that important for us to comprehend right now—like a lot of the things we've been discussing. Some things only God knows. We have to have faith that He knows what He's doing—He's got it all worked out.
As for what you've said to Christina, I believe BECAUSE I've read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and, as Moroni, the last prophet in that book challenges the reader in Moroni 10:3-5, I have asked God with real intent, having faith in Christ, if the book was true, and I felt God's Spirit confirm to me that it was. I've read Joseph Smith's account of what happened to him in the sacred grove, found in Joseph Smith—History, and I felt the same Spirit. And if The Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and the rest of the Church and the Gospel, built on that foundation, is true as well. This knowledge is spiritual in nature and thus cannot be proved by only physical means, but must be learned through the Spirit. I have faith that it's true.
(Not to say that physical "proof" isn't NICE... And I just don't think that a young man with a 4th grade education could create the Book of Mormon with its unique voice for each author (they've analyzed each prophet's writing style, and each one is unique) and full of Hebrew-like poetic devices like chiasmus and stuff. (See wikipedia...) But like I said, this is just NICE to know. The important part is confirmation of the truth by the Spirit.)
I'm not 100% familiar with the history of the Book of Abraham (something about a guy going to Egypt and being given some scroll, and he brought it back to America and gave it to Joseph Smith, who translated it... badda bing, badda boom), but when I read it, I can feel the Spirit, and that's good enough for me. There are a lot of ancient records floating (or in museums) around the world, and if God wanted Joseph Smith to translate this particular one, He could get it to him, being all-powerful and all. And I figure that's what happened.
Anyway, that's my two cents for this round... ;)
Sara
Sara ♥ wrote: "I haven't said anything in a while because I was kinda ticked off that you were observant enough to notice how many times I said "I don't know" (most of which were not in relation to my beliefs, bu..."I have enjoyed reading your responses Sara. I feel questions are important but yet ultimately it does come down to faith and your own confirmation. James 1:5 states if we "lack wisdom to ask of God..." and John 14:26 and John 15:26 reference the comforter which is the Holy Ghost and will testify of truth.
Those around Christ during his day rejected him for they looked for too many reasons of why he could not be the Christ rather than truly hearing His voice.
Monkey, hopefully you will find what you are looking for. I respect your right to believe as you wish but to tell others they are not Christians when they live their daily lives following and worshiping Christ is simply not respecting others rights as well. No one likes to be told what they do an do not believe, even you. Consider that in your future posts.
All the best,
Scott
Scott, Pointing out basic differences in philosophy is not "Telling someone what they believe". I have no problem with people believing that god wants them to have plural wives (but not plural husbands), or that sins in past lives will affect how you are reborn or that David Koresh is the reincarnated son of god, or any other religious belief. As long as you are over 18 and it doesn't hurt anyone, believe whatever you want, but don't try to pass it off as logical.
Sara's belief that the Book of Mormon is true because she felt the holy spirit is not proof. What if I told you that I thought L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet because I felt the holy spirit while reading "Battlefield Earth"? Would you accord my revelation with the same weight as your own? Why?
Why is it that whenever a group has no logical defense, the response is "you are not respecting my beliefs"? If someone believed that space aliens wanted them to run naked down the street, would you respect them? What if they believed that the holy spirit told them to? Would you respect their sincere feelings?
Sara,
When you refer to Joseph Smiths account of what happened to him in the sacred grove, which of the four accounts are you referring to? Some more questions for you:
http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon...
Scott,
You said, "No one likes to be told what they do an do not believe..."
But isn't that what churches do?
Good luck,
Monkey
A few things:*I was referring to the one that is part of our scriptures, contained in Joseph Smith—History.
*I don't even want to go through those questions. But I will say that if Joseph Smith didn't publish his experience for 22 years (2 years before his death), it's probably because he felt the experience was sacred. Just like how I'm not going to type out my entire Patriarchal Blessing for you, because it's special to me—not something I'm going to share with the whole world. And as for the 7 revisions, Joseph's wife, Emma, said that he wasn't literate/educated enough (at least earlier in his life) to write a LETTER that made sense. So if he was revising, it was probably because he wanted to get the wording and stuff just right, you know? It was going to be part of SCRIPTURE, after all. I'd revise 7 times, too!
*Logic is a funny thing. To YOU, my beliefs may not seem logical. And yet, to me, they totally make sense. "Logic" can be bent and twisted and contorted... until you step back and go, "This conclusion may have been derived using 'logic,' but it makes absolutely no SENSE."
*If you want absolute proof of ANY religious beliefs, I'm afraid you're going to be searching until Christ comes again. THEN you'll be able to see... but that won't give you faith. If we had a ton of irrefutable proof, then people wouldn't need to have faith—they would just KNOW. But God wants to see if we will follow Him—trust in Him—even when we AREN'T 100% sure.
*"Isn't that what churches do?" It depends on how you look at it. Of course ANY church is going to teach you their "take" on the Bible and different religious points, but as far as I know, no churches in America are FORCING people to believe any certain way. If you don't like what one church teaches (if their ideas don't sit well with you or ring true to you), you're free to get up and find another church or no church at all. As I see it, churches lay out their beliefs for people to accept or reject.
*In my case, I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of God on the earth—the only church that has the whole truth. And so when I want to know about a certain topic, I search the Church website and figure out what the Church teaches about that topic and that's the viewpoint I adopt. But that doesn't mean there is ZERO room for personal interpretation. There isn't an "official" Church stance on every tiny point of every doctrine, so sometimes you just have to pray about stuff and use your best judgment.
Sara
PS - What's the luck for? ;)
Monkey wrote: "Scott, Pointing out basic differences in philosophy is not "Telling someone what they believe". I have no problem with people believing that god wants them to have plural wives (but not plural h..."
Monkey,
I appreciate the response and do respect that there will be differences in opinion and that is OK. The difference is that if you felt that L Ron Hubbard was a prophet because you felt the spirit while reading "Battlefield Earth" I would respect that as your right. I would not be posting it on sites stating reasons why you are wrong but respect your right to believe as you choose.
From that, if I am asked my opinion on that I may disagree but still respect your right to believe as you choose. I recognize that others believe in many things that may differ from me and feel as strongly in their beliefs as I do in mine. The difference is the respect of opinion. You simply look for logic in everything where there is not always logic to be found. There are however laws of the land, so the naked aliens could pose an issue for the legal system.
Look, I know and have seen these types of discussions go back and forth. Sharing of ideas and opinions is great. But if there is no respect simply because one of the parties disagrees then the discussion only breeds contention and benefits no one. I surround myself with friends of many faiths (Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Non Denominational Christians, Muslims, Jews and Athiest). We have great discussions but we respect each others right to believe as we wish . We also recognize that no church tells us what too do but gives guidance and council. It is up to me too choose to follow what I believe to be right and true.
The greatest gift we have been given is Free Agency. Even if one may think someone is following blindly they always have free agency. It is simply up to them what they choose to do.
All the best,
Scott
Scott,But there is logic. Evolution, the big bang, all of science is based on replicable, observable facts.
Are you seriously telling me that logic is not always to be found? That sounds like solipsism to me.
Sara,
You say I'll have proof "When Christ comes again..." But that has never happened. Despite several religions predicting it many times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_c...
That's the problem with religion. The existence of god, souls, pre-existence... NONE of it can be proven to exist.
I stand by my original assertation (and the fact that you view it negatively makes me wonder why you are so desperate to cling to the coat tails of Christianity) that the many, fundamental differences in basic tenets makes Mormonism a separate religion from Christianity, just as Moonies are different from Buddhists. Revel in your individuality. Claim it. No reason to be upset.
Best of luck,
Monkey
"You say I'll have proof 'When Christ comes again...' But that has never happened..."Not to be rude, but duh! I think we would have noticed! He's only going to come again ONCE. And of course they didn't correctly predict when Christ was going to come (besides, if every religious group predicts a different date, everyone but ONE GROUP is going to be wrong...). There are still signs that haven't come to pass (like all the stuff in Revelation 11, for instance). And it's not going to happen in 2012 either. (There are things that have to happen 3 1/2 years ahead of time, as you can read in Rev 11, that haven't happened yet.) Nobody knows exactly WHEN He'll come again, but we CAN watch for the signs from the scriptures. And apparently some WONDERFUL person has compiled all the signs, as we Mormons see them, HERE! Convenient, eh? ;)
It can be "proven" to exist, if you're willing to believe Joseph Smith, but none of it can be proven NOT to exist. There was a wicked-awesome quote I read recently. I'll go see if I can find it.... Oooh... found it. Okay, some background, as it relates to a Book of Mormon story. Korihor, who was Anti-Christ, was going around teaching the Nephites that there's no God and no Christ and all sorts of other stuff like that. Alma, who was the prophet at the time, was having a "debate" with him.
So Korihor is talking about God, calling Him "some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be." Alma 30:37-40, 43-44 says:
37) And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?Okay, so then there's this quote:
38) And he answered, Nay.
39) Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.
40) And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.
....
43) And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.
44) But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.
"When questioned, Korihor categorically denies that he believes there is a God. Alma then asks, 'What evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.' (Alma 30:40.)I really liked that. I thought that was pretty good. And logical, even! ;) But I agree with Alma. To me, there are TONS of things that tell me there are a God, like the fact that Earth is in EXACTLY the right spot in the universe to be able to sustain life (coincidence? chance? I don't think so.) Or my husband says that as he studies cellular biology, he is more and more convinced that there is a God, because there is just NO WAY that the human body (or animal bodies, as he's in Vet School) HAPPENED to evolve this way. He says that cells are just like microscopic universes inside our bodies. (Or that's how he dumbs it down for me, anyway. I didn't take any science classes beyond the required ones...) So I guess what I'm saying is that, if you are willing to accept indirect evidence (i.e. evidence that He's BEEN there, as opposed to Him being there right in front of you (which would be quite direct)), you can find your evidence. But can you prove God DOESN'T exist?
"It is an inspired insight on Alma's part. Korihor is not consistent in his own thinking. If we truly can know only those things for which we have empirical evidence, then we cannot teach there is no God unless we have evidence for that belief. And Korihor has no evidence.
"Korihor will consider only evidence that can be gathered through the senses. In such a system, it is much easier to prove there is a God than to prove there is not a God. To prove there is a God, all it takes is for one person to see, hear, or otherwise have an experience with God, and thereafter the existence of God cannot be disproved. But here is what it would take to prove there is no God: Since God is not confined to this earth, we would have to search throughout the universe for him. We assume God is able to move about, so it would not be enough to start at point A in the universe and search through to point Z. What if after we leave point A, God moves there and stays there for the rest of the search?
"In other words, for Korihor to say that there is no God, based on the very criteria he himself has established, he would have to perceive every cubic meter of the universe simultaneously. This creates a paradox: In order for Korihor to prove there is no God, he would have to be a god himself! Therefore, in declaring there is no God, he is acting on 'faith,' the very thing for which he so sharply derides the religious leaders!" (Elder Gerald N. Lund, "Countering Korihor's Philosophy," Ensign, July 1992, 21).
As for clinging to "the coat tails of Christianity"? WOW. That was lovely. We are DEFINITELY not trying to lump ourselves in with anyone else—we are "a peculiar people," as we like to say. You're right in that we are very different from all the other Christian denominations. I think I've said before, but sometimes I feel like we have more in common with Jewish people than with other Christians. Except that we're not going to stop calling ourselves Christian, because that would be, in essence, denying Christ. And without Christ, you can't exactly have a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, now can you? That, and without Christ, we'd all go to hell.... And as I'd rather avoid that particular experience, I think I'll stick with Jesus and not care what other people think. Like I said before, when Christ comes, it will be pretty clear what's up...
Still not sure what the luck is for, but it never hurts...
Sara
Sara,Ahhh, the old saw, "You can't prove there ISN'T a god...."
Yes, and YOU can't prove there isn't a Zeus, or Shiva.... or Spider-Man, or Unicorns.... (See the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory).
Proof is positive. You can ONLY prove that something DOES exist.
And this has not been done for god. All the INDIRECT evidence shows that there is no need for a god.
If you look at the size of the universe and the billions of years that it has existed, the chances that there WASN'T a place where self-aware life evolved is slim-to-none. (EDIT: Spanish researchers just found one! http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gener... ) If your husband the vet needs explanations on how life evolved on Earth, please contact your local library. Or wikipedia.
If you have any evidence of hell, please send it to Science or Nature magazine: you will be very rich and famous.
Best of luck,
Monkey
I haven't read all the comments (there are far too many of them) but to people of other Protestant religions (and to all the Catholics I've spoken to) Mormons aren't Christian. They think they are (the ones I've spoken to), and they're categorized that way, but to us they aren't. Mainly because (and I don't know everything about Mormonism I'm just stating things I've been told by Mormons) the definition of Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, our Savior, and we can only get to heaven through him. But Mormons believe (so I've been told) that if someone has passed away ( a "non believer") a living person can stand in for them, be baptized in their place, and that will release them from Hell and send them to God to choose whether they want to believe in him or not. I've never heard this anywhere so I'm not sure where they got it from, maybe it's in their mormon book, but it certainly isn't in the Bible.I won't get into the other reasons, but that is one of the larger differences, for me, that separates Mormons from Christians.
Kay wrote: "...the definition of Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, our Savior, and we can only get to heaven through him."That's what we Mormons believe. As for vicarious work for the dead, we believe that that is made possible BY the Savior, AND that the individual still has to choose whether or not they will accept Jesus as their Savior. If they don't accept Him, they won't get into heaven. Doing baptisms for people who have died IS in the Bible — in 1 Corinthians 15:29.
What you said... "release them from Hell and send them to God to choose whether they want to believe in him or not"... That's the GIST of it (that's REALLY simplified), though when we say "hell," we mean that term in more of a Catholic "purgatory" way, if I correctly understand the way Catholics use the term purgatory.
Okay then, I think I understand it better now. But, do you believe that everyone goes to purgatory when they die? And, assuming everyone does, when do the believers go to heaven and nonbelievers to hell? (Sorry, I'm just wondering how it all works. I mean, if everyone gets to choose then who would ever go to hell?)
We believe that right after a death, people who are righteous go to a place called "Paradise" and people who don't have the gospel of Jesus Christ go to what you would call "Purgatory" (we call it "Spirit Prison" or "Hell"), and those who are in paradise are responsible for teaching the people in purgatory about Christ and his gospel. They can choose to accept it or reject it. Then later, once everyone has had the opportunity to learn and choose whether or not they will follow Jesus Christ, we will each be brought before God to be judged. From there, we are assigned (based on our level of righteousness) to heaven or hell.... Although we believe in something a BIT more complicated than what most people think of as heaven.... We believe that there are 3 levels to heaven, and MOST people who live on the earth will get into one of those. The most righteous will go to the highest level and live with God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost forever. The pretty good people will go to the second level, where they will be able not be able to live with GOD, but where Christ and the Holy Ghost will be able to be with them. Then those who aren't very righteous, but weren't really "evil" will go to the lowest level of heaven (which is still going to be really really fabulous) and won't be able to be with God or Christ, but the Holy Ghost will be with them. Then the really really terrible people will go to what we call "Outer Darkness" or what most people probably think of as "Hell"... and they will live with Satan forever and be his minions... (Yeah... don't sign me up for that, thank you!)
So the way we think of it, yeah... there won't be a lot of people in hell, but there WILL be people in the lower levels of heaven who won't be able to live with God forever, who will probably be pretty bummed about that. But I really love this belief of ours because it shows how kind, merciful, and loving God is. Even many of those who reject Him will still have happiness after this life, even if it isn't nearly as much happiness as they COULD have had if they had accepted Him and His Son!
Wait, so Mormons don't believe in the trinity do they? I think I heard somewhere that they think God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are each three separate things.
Kay wrote: "Wait, so Mormons don't believe in the trinity do they? I think I heard somewhere that they think God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are each three separate things."That's right—3 separate beings.
Thank you for putting up with me! It's always interesting to hear about other people's beliefs and I'm glad you actually explained everything instead of getting mad and blowing me off.
Well you asked so nicely! I couldn't leave you high and dry! ;)
Sara and Kay, thank you for your posts. It is how communication should be; with respect.
I truly and firmly believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There isn't one person who can prove it wrong to me. And if you have something better than what i have already, go ahead. Show me. Because if you do then heck i'll go along with you. But this church is just so incredible and peaceful that i KNOW with all my heart that there is nothing better out there. Anyone who feels like they know about the gospel or "mormonism" as we're calling it, why dont you learn some more and read the book of mormon. and i mean REALLY read it. pray before you read it ( with an open heart and an open mind ) Pray after you read it( again with an open heart and an open mind ). and maybe even call up some missionaries. no harm in trying right?? its not like their going to force you into the church.
I have a testimony of this gospel and of Joseph Smith. I know that he saw God and his Son, Jesus Christ. And I know that he translated the Book of Mormon. and I know that these scriptures given to us now are here to help and guide us through these last days and to be a comfort for me when nothing else works. I know this is all true. And no one can prove me wrong.
Becca,Here is the question: I know Muslims that are 100% just as convinced as you are that Mohammed rode into heaven on a white horse, and NOTHING will convince them otherwise. Are they right? What about some of my Hindu friends who will SWEAR that all reality is but Atmans dream? to quote you "I know this is all true. And no one can prove me wrong."
Can you prove THEM wrong? They, too, have prayed on it and read their respective holy books. If you can PROVE to me that all around us is not just a dream of the Hindu god Atman, I'll believe you. If you can PROVE to me that Mohammed is not the last prophet of Allah, I'll believe you. The catch is that you can't use any arguments that can ALSO be used by the other religions (i.e. "I have a book that I consider holy that tells me so.), you have to have empirical evidence.
And, by the way, the reason I DON'T believe in Mormonism is that I HAVE read the books. It has MANY claims that can be objectively, scientifically tested and proven to be false:
Native americans are from the middle east. -DNA evidence proves this is false.
Pre-columbian use of steel and horses. -no archeological evidence
Black skin is the mark of Cain. - this is just plain 'ol racism
The book of Abraham was written by Abraham. - the papyri was too young, and, once translated, was not even CLOSE to what Joseph Smith said it was.
Tell you what, if you read, "Breaking the Spell"
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20...
I'll read the Book of Mormon AGAIN.
Deal?
Good Luck,
Monkey
P.S. I'd REALLY like to know your opinion on the book of Abraham.
In response to the question at hand, they are Christian. They believe in Christ, therefore they are Christian.
In response to your hard facts against the book, I wonder what you spend your time on. Do you honestly take the time to bash a religion with which you want to have no affiliation with?
Monkey, your comments on steel are flawed. It may have been a different form of metal, but steel was the closest translation. Does that make sense?
In response to your hard facts against the book, I wonder what you spend your time on. Do you honestly take the time to bash a religion with which you want to have no affiliation with?
Monkey, your comments on steel are flawed. It may have been a different form of metal, but steel was the closest translation. Does that make sense?
Keith, The name of the church has nothing do to with it. I could call my poodle-worshiping church "The Church of Buddha of Suburbia" and that would NOT make me Buddhist. I'm not talking about labels, I'm talking content.
Ashley,
So, you believe in the original teachings of Jesus who is called the Christ by some, who was Jewish by birth. Yet you believe that God was once flesh and bone, that you will become god and that souls have a pre-life (and magic underwear), none of which were in the old or new testament. By your own argument, that precludes you from being Christian.
My personal beliefs are not being discussed. This is the "Book of Mormon" thread, not the "Monkey" thread. You attempts to derail this conversation with personal attacks are officially rebuffed.
Love,
Monkey
PS. Anyone want to comment on the book of Abraham? I'm hearing nothing but a deafening silence on this. Was Joseph Smith lying or deluded? Did he REALLY believe he was translating a papyrus written by Abraham? And if so, why is his translation completely incorrect?
I really try to be a nice person. I really do. Most of the time. But...I'm getting REALLY sick and tired of your insistence that we're not Christian. If you've read the Book of Mormon, like you claim to have, I don't know how on EARTH you could POSSIBLY question that fact, as over half of the verses of that book reference Christ. We Mormons are TELLING you that we are Christian—that we try to follow the example Christ showed us during His life (as recorded in the New Testament) and our main goal in life is to try to become as Christlike as possible. Just because we don't conform to your preconceived notions about Christianity doesn't change that fact. We ARE Christian. Deal with it.
And if you want to get technical about what thread this is, Abraham isn't part of the Book of Mormon, but the Pearl of Great Price... So really, you should be over on the Triple Combination thread. Just saying.
And I don't care if what Joseph Smith got from those papyri were actually written by Abraham or was a bunch of gobbledygook like you profess that it was. I believe that the words that are now our Book of Abraham are from God, whether they were actually WRITTEN there in Egyptian or were just a revelation from God. The papyri were just a prop, as far as I'm concerned, because God certainly didn't NEED them to pass on the words of Abraham to Joseph Smith. But if the papyri really WERE from Abraham... how cool is that? And if anyone could get those documents from Egypt to Joseph, God could sure make it happen.
And our underwear are NOT "magical". You know how priests wear a special white collar as a symbol that they have dedicated their lives to God? It's the same concept, except we wear our underneath our clothes. They're just symbolic of the fact that we've dedicated our lives to God and promised to follow Him and His Son.
Yes, I am LDS and I am Christian.
Here are the basic beliefs of the LDS Church, known as The Articles of Faith:THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith
First of all, great job to Sara and her answering of questions. I belong to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and we are, indeed, a Christian church. Just today, I was reading in The Book Of Mormon(which states on the cover "another testament of Jesus Christ) 2 Nephi Chapter 25 Verse 26;"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins"- since this book, along with the bible, is the mormon scripture and basis of belief, than I'm kind of having a hard time seeing how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is not a Christian church. When you walk in the door to my home, you see 2 pictures-one of Christ as a baby in a bed of hay and another of him walking out of the tomb, ressurected-along with a tile plate stating"Joy to the World"(the Lord has come) In each of my children's rooms there is a picture of Christ having the little children come unto him. Everyday I (try) to follow His example in order to show more love, patience, compassion, and service in my life. The core of our religion is centered around Jesus Christ and how we can become like him and live with him forever. I'm not really concerned with what other churches think of mormons being Christian-I think if everyone was a little less concerned about what makes each other different and "werid" and a little more concerned with following the teachings of Christ(whether they believe him to be the son of God or not-though Mormons do, indeed, believe that), the world would be alot better off. "By their fruits ye shall know them". You can judge a religion by how the majority(there are always going to be freaks or over zealous people in any religion)of it's people live their lives. You really can't say(or you just don't really know too many mormons)that most mormons are not good, hardworking, family oriented, honest, decent people, just trying to do the best they can. And I'm not familiar with another church that would send their sons(and daughters) to 3rd world countries for 2 years (and pay for it themselves) to teach people about Jesus. And the sons and daughters are the ones that have made the choice to give that time-time in which they could be getting ahead in school or work or sports or dating or just enjoying carefree college life(age 19-21 for boys, 21-22 for girls)- and then to come back and give countless hours of their time to fill all the positions that make the church funcion in their geographical boundries(called "wards") throughout the rest of their lives-paralleing the time when they are raising their families, starting their careers, finishing their careers, and giving more of their time during the golden retirement years to serve more missions of preaching of Jesus the Christ. Whether you believe the teachings or not, you can't ignore the dedication to JESUS that 12 million members worldwide have.
A few points (mainly to "monkey")
-If you believe the ancient prophets(and for mormons, the latter day prophets, namely Joseph Smith) such as Moses actually saw God, well, I don't think they felt like they needed anymore proof than that-sounds like some people living on this Earth HAVE had proof of God's literal existence... but then again, you'd have to believe their accounts;)
-You say mormons believe in more than one God because of our belief that there are other God's governing other worlds that have nothing to do with us. That is more of a logical conclusion and again, we do not worship these Gods-they have their own worlds. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints only worship God the eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ. We only pray to 1 God. Prominent Christian churches actually pray to saints, not just God, yet I don't see you questioning them by your definition of "Christain", and only worshipping 1 God(praying to someone else sounds like worshipping to me-I'm not saying those churches are not Christian, I'm just wondering why this never comes up in ripping on one's "Christain-ness")
So to "monkey", I also ask what your motivation is in being so vocal that Mormons are not Christians. If you have a beef with mormonism in general, than you are already biased and will not be willing to look at the Christian aspect in an objective point of view-you'll get too antagonistic with it, so maybe this isn't the best thread for you-I love a good religious discussion when it's respectful. So I don't think it's irrelavent to ask what your personal belief is. I do find it kind of funny, though, that whenever someone is so intent on pointing out some of the peculiar beliefs of Mormons, they don't point out that believing in Christ at all is very peculiar in deed. An ominous being creating the world? A God coming to the world as part human? Conceived by a virgin and God? Being killed than ressurected from the dead? Sounds like some werid beliefs to me, no matter what other details you add to it;) Just goes to show that any belief in God, the afterlife, pre-mortal life, ect sounds pretty far-fetched for the "logical" brain-which is why religion and God is for the "spiritual" brain. No amount of proof will ever convince someone otherwise. Kind of corny, but seeing isn't believing-believing is seeing..which is why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints makes perfect "logical" sense to me.
Monkey,
They just called it something else. Doesn't mean it's not a metal we haven't found. Maybe, in terms of weight-to-strength, it was very similar to steel. It just hasn't been revealed yet. And I am sure that it won't be, because it is so trivial.
I have not done enough research on the Book of Abraham to know for certain. When I have more information, I will get back to you.
I think that you are taking things to extremes. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not support polygamy. We don't believe that your dog is God, because we know that he has a human form. The brother of Jared, mentioned in the book of Ether, saw Christ's hand, which proves that these divine beings are, indeed, human.
You got your facts mixed up. Abraham did not predict the Second Coming, because the first one hadn't happened yet. He was prophesying of the coming of Christ, commonly accepted to have occurred just over 2000 years ago.
For the record, I don't think your "love" is sincere.
Thanks,
Taylor Mefford
P.S. I am a perfect victim for you to harass. I'm only 14. I know quite a bit, but you seem to know a little less.
They just called it something else. Doesn't mean it's not a metal we haven't found. Maybe, in terms of weight-to-strength, it was very similar to steel. It just hasn't been revealed yet. And I am sure that it won't be, because it is so trivial.
I have not done enough research on the Book of Abraham to know for certain. When I have more information, I will get back to you.
I think that you are taking things to extremes. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not support polygamy. We don't believe that your dog is God, because we know that he has a human form. The brother of Jared, mentioned in the book of Ether, saw Christ's hand, which proves that these divine beings are, indeed, human.
You got your facts mixed up. Abraham did not predict the Second Coming, because the first one hadn't happened yet. He was prophesying of the coming of Christ, commonly accepted to have occurred just over 2000 years ago.
For the record, I don't think your "love" is sincere.
Thanks,
Taylor Mefford
P.S. I am a perfect victim for you to harass. I'm only 14. I know quite a bit, but you seem to know a little less.
JS-H 1:2525 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.
D&C 135
1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.
2 John Taylor and Willard Richards, two of the Twelve, were the only persons in the room at the time; the former was wounded in a savage manner with four balls, but has since recovered; the latter, through the providence of God, escaped, without even a hole in his robe.
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet andbSeer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!
4 When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:
5 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I . . . bid farewell unto the Gentiles; yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.
6 Hyrum Smith was forty-four years old in February, 1844, and Joseph Smith was thirty-eight in December, 1843; and henceforward their names will be classed among the martyrs of religion; and the reader in every nation will be reminded that the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth for the salvation of a ruined world; and that if the fire can scathe a green tree for the glory of God, how easy it will burn up the dry trees to purify the vineyard of corruption. They lived for glory; they died for glory; and glory is their eternal reward. From age to age shall their names go down to posterity as gems for the sanctified.
7 They were innocent of any crime, as they had often been proved before, and were only confined in jail by the conspiracy of traitors and wicked men; and their innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail is a broad seal affixed to “Mormonism” that cannot be rejected by any court on earth, and their innocent blood on the escutcheon of the State of Illinois, with the broken faith of the State as pledged by the governor, is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen.
Ok, listen "Monkey",
I DO NOT appreciate your talk about my church. I think that it's time for someone to tell you loud and clear that you are in no place to judge us like you have been. I agree with Taylor 100 percent when he says that your 'love' isn't sincere at all. I may be at a young age, and I still have much to learn, but you better watch your mouth. And I for one am a Christian because I believe in Christ. It's as simple as that. So stop trying to mess with our minds about our faith over silly questions. Hopefully you'll open your heart to this comment and give our church a chance.
Love
Leesie
I DO NOT appreciate your talk about my church. I think that it's time for someone to tell you loud and clear that you are in no place to judge us like you have been. I agree with Taylor 100 percent when he says that your 'love' isn't sincere at all. I may be at a young age, and I still have much to learn, but you better watch your mouth. And I for one am a Christian because I believe in Christ. It's as simple as that. So stop trying to mess with our minds about our faith over silly questions. Hopefully you'll open your heart to this comment and give our church a chance.
Love
Leesie
JS-H 1:3333 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
Monkey, I just have to flat out say I completely agree 150% with Leesie. (Thanks by the way.) She is absolutely right. First thing's first: Our church is definitely considered a form of Christianity. Christianity teaches that there is only one God in all existence, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created Adam and Eve. God created man in His image. This does not mean that God has a body of flesh and bones. Image means the likeness of God's character, rationality, etc. Because we are made in the image of God, every person is worthy of respect and honor. Furthermore, this means that we did not evolve through random processes from a single-celled organism into rational, emotional beings.
Monkey, where did you get all of your information?
I was wondering the same thing.
Monkey wrote: "Some of the basic tenets of Mormonism differ greatly from that of Christianity, yet Mormons claim to be Christians. Are they?Here are several examples:
1. God was once a man who lived on an..."
1.) Mostly true. There are a few flaws, however. God is not a polygamist. And there are not other "Gods."
2.) Yes, true. What's wrong with that belief? What about the Law of Conservation of matter? We can't have just come from nothing.
3.) I don't know about that... That's not entirely accurate. God has a ressurected glorified body, which is different than the bodies we have, though still alike in appearance, for the most part.
((It jumps from 3 to 6...))
6.) No. That is not what the temple is for. The temple is for making covenants and other ordinances. Also, Baptism for the Dead is not quite as you describe it. I know because I've done that. Those who are baptised by proxy have the choice rather to accept it or not, of course.
7.) Adam is not God. That's ridiculous; we don't believe that. That may have been a mistake or misunderstood. Adam was just the first man, and is also referred to as our Father, because he was. But he is not a father as in "Father in Heaven," or God.
8.) Jesus is not a polygamist, either. Polygamy was not part of His Church then. We don't even know if he's married at all.
Monkey wrote: "Jeniel,
How can these comments do your belief an injustice? ALL the quotes are from the books held sacred by your church, and the summaries of practices by the Mormon church are all accurate, if ..."
Actually, the "Journal of Discourse" quotes you use are not sacred text, although they are accurate. I believe they have been misinterpreted. Anyway, we ARE Christian. We believe Jesus Christ is the Saviour and worship Him, and follow His example. Furthermore, how do those points you made make us NOT Christian? Jesus Christ is still the core of our belief, no matter what. I don't understand what those points do to detract from the definition of "Christian" - which is simply believing in and following Jesus Christ.
However, Monkey, I appreciate that you are being polite about this. Most religous critics are very unreasonable and don't try to support their arguement, so thank you for going to the time to find all those examples. But I would just like to say that I don't believe those are all accurate, and I believe my Church is true and that we are Christians.
Oh, and in another comment, Monkey, you asked why women can't have the priesthood. I used to really struggle with that. But tell me, to be equal, do you have to be exactly the same? Women have different roles than men. Just because we aren't ordained with the priesthood doesn't mean we can't ever become like God or be as "powerful" as men. Men and women are equal in God's eyes, and any idea of sexism is how humans perceive it, not what God intends. Also, we ARE monotheistic. We don't KNOW if there are other "Gods" out there that have advanced or whatever, but we don't concern ourselves about whether there are or not because we can't comprehend everything. Even if there ARE, we only worship God, and His Son. I also like the point somebody else made - other Christian churches pray to saints and to the Virgin Mary. By what you're saying about us thinking there may or may not be other Gods out there, then that also makes those other churches not Christian. Once again, it seems to me like you only accept "Christian" to be more of a standard church, such as Catholics or Lutherans, and that we can't be Christians because our other beliefs are different.
Hm, actually, Monkey, I just have a problem with your very first statement. "Some of the basic tenets of Mormonism differ greatly from that of Christianity, yet Mormons claim to be Christians."
Wait, what??? Christianity is not a religion; it is a type of religion. It is not one specific set of beliefs; it is a flexible term that describes the prominent belief of a religion. The way you used the word "Christianity" doesn't make sense. Christianity is not like Catholicism or Prosestantism or Mormonism.
Alyssa hit the nail on the head. Anybody going to disagree with this perfect answer?
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Here are several examples:
1. God was once a man who lives on another planet (Near a star called Kolob).
Mormons believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. Mormons worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. Mormons believe that they will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and they too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking: "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
Book of Abraham 3: 3-4, 9, 16
9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one aplanet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God...
2. We are co-eternal with God.
They believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3. The origin of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. They believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4. Saving dead ancestors.
Mormons believe they have temples where they get the handshakes and passwords that allow them to become gods. They also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
5. Adam is God.
Brigham Young's taught the Adam-God Doctrine, that "Adam is our Father in Heaven". This doctrine was also taught and believed by Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Hosea Stout, William Clayton and others. Spencer Kimball pronounced this a false doctrine in October 1976.
References: Journal of Discourse Vol. 1, pg. 50-51; Vol. 2, pg. 6, 143; Vol. 3, pg. 319; Vol. 4, pg. 271; Vol. 5, pg. 331; vol. 6, pg. 275,285; vol. 8, pg. 53, 208; vol. 12, pg. 97.
6. LDS leaders have taught that Jesus is a polygamist.
"Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives and that he begat children."
Reference: Apostle Orson Hyde, J of D vol. 2, pg. 80 and 84. Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 172 and the Second Counselor to Brigham Young, Jedadiah Grant, Journal of Discourses., Vol. 1, pg. 346.
7. That salvation is not through accepting Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith.
[There is:] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are"
- Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith:]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith:]"
- Prophet George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God.. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154
8. That other churches are not Christian.
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255
"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324
"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73
"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171
"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89
"The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196
"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches ... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:172
"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225
"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."
- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225
"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (p. 266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282
"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foudation of this (Mormon) church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."
- Supposedly Jesus Christ Himself, Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
With these major differences at the very root of Mormonism, should this book still be considered a Christian text? And should Mormoninsm be considered a form of Christianity?