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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
Rosemary (aiming to misbehave) wrote: "Jim wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "...Individual Americans can be delightful people, but the..."
This is my experience too - the Americans I know personally are all normal people. But as a nation they appear to be thick as mince"
The problem is that the ones you meet are the ones that realise that there is water on 2.5 sides of their land and that there might be something beyond. Americans refer to them as intellectuals, we know them as tourists.
remember I actually deal with Americans in America from time to time, and they're perfectly fine to deal with. It's just that the two coasts regard those in the middle with contempt (the 'fly-over' states) and those in the middle hate those on the coasts for sneering at them, And then it spirals out of control from there :-(
There are a great number of ferociously intelligent people in America. The problem was that during the 19th Century an awful lot of people entered the country that, nowadays, they would refuse without hesitation. If it wasn't for the treatment of the Jews by Russia and afterwards, Germany, that forced them to arrive in the US to escape the terrible oppression and progroms, I suspect that America wouldn't be the inventive powerhouse it is today.
Jim, read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. It's available as an ebook from Gutenberg.org. It gives you an insight of immigration in Chicago.It lead to health controls on foodstuffs that still are enforced today, despite George Dubbyer's best efforts to get them repealed.
If I recall aright, 'use by date' was actually invented by one Al Capone (yes, that one), who recalled being given seriously off milk as an impoverised child and vowed to change that for other children.
Will wrote: "If I recall aright, 'use by date' was actually invented by one Al Capone (yes, that one), who recalled being given seriously off milk as an impoverised child and vowed to change that for other chil..."Could be. Here's a link.
http://www.tnonline.com/2011/jun/18/milk-expiration-dates-courtesy-al-capone
I still think Reagan was a better actor than Obama.
Far better.I suspect that history might even remember him as a better president. History has the advantage of looking back at what they've achieved with a century or two's hindsight :-)
I can't think of anything Reagan did except sleep... Oh and invent the entirely laughable Reaganonomics now universally derided as 'Trickle down theory'**(Where poor people are made better off by rich people spending money)
The only thing that trickles down from above is bad luck and trouble.
Is it upstairs?
Rosemary (aiming to misbehave) wrote: "The only thing that trickles down from above is bad luck and trouble."You ommitted abuse..
Will wrote: "Rosemary (aiming to misbehave) wrote: "The only thing that trickles down from above is bad luck and trouble."You ommitted abuse.."
Maybe she was thinking of Lucretia Macevil.
Will wrote: "I can't think of anything Reagan did except sleep... Oh and invent the entirely laughable Reaganonomics now universally derided as 'Trickle down theory'**(Where poor people are made better off by..."
That's where two hundred years will make a difference. In two hundred years people will see the general economic trends and realise that few if any politicians made a difference, and at the same time ponder the collapse of the Soviet Union under his watch
Don't we all have tremendous respect? No brown noses here!
Jim wrote: "Will wrote: "I can't think of anything Reagan did except sleep... Oh and invent the entirely laughable Reaganonomics now universally derided as 'Trickle down theory'**(Where poor people are made ..."
I think the Soviet Union would have collapsed anyway, regardless of Reagan.
All Empires do, it's managing the collapse from outside that is the clever bitThe problems in the middle east can be seen as a result of the collapse of the Ottomans
Which in turn was caused by the British destabilising the Arabian Peninsula to turn them against the Turks in WWI.
Well only because we'd been propping them up to keep the Russians out of the Med. The sole strategic reason for the Turkish Empire was that they controlled access to and from the Black Sea. If it hadn't been for us the Russians would probably have taken large chunks of Asia Minor in the 19th century at the same time they were dismantling Turkey's European territories.
Anyway, forget the USSR - let's get this thread back to some fun discussions, or my favourite topic: the Tory Party imploding over the European Union :)David Cameron was on the Marr show this morning, doing his Neville Chamberlain impression, waving a piece of paper and promising reform in our time. :)
If Cameron thinks that tinkering around with benefit reform is going to appease the hardcore Eurosceptics in his party, then he's even more deluded than I thought he was.
Remember the parties are actually irrelevant in the EU debate. It's probable that what happens in the EU on the ground, how the euro does, how the migrant crisis pans out and whether we see major disturbances in Spain etc will have more effect on voters than anything party leaders say.Party leaders (of any party) struggle to deliver votes on major issues
How are we all voting in the referendum then? I'm for out, I'm not against the common market but I am not happy about the way it's administered. My vote to leave would be a protest against the bureaucrats. I have thought about the trade implications and as I was an international freight forwarder I do have experience of some aspects of the market.
I've changed from firmly 'in' to firmly 'out'.My change of heart was caused by seeing the ruthless way Germany and the Council of Ministers dealt with the issue of the collapse of the Greek economy and their insistence on the continuation of the austerity measures that even the IMF (not known as a very liberal institution) said would be ineffective counter productive and lead to a terrible level of poverty - so that the euro didn't suffer the political pressure of losing a member.
It doesn't matter if you agreed with the left wing Greek government or not: they had been voted in and the naked power politics from Germany have decided me to vote against remaining in the association.
Over the years I drifted from 'probably a good thing' to 'marginally a good thing.' Then I watched the way the bureaucracy rode roughshod over elected governments starting with how the EU got rid of Silvio Berlusconi,He might not be a good man, or even a decent man, but he was at least elected.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bus... puts things into perspective and that was written in 2011.
What was done to Ireland, Greece and others merely confirmed for me that if we want to keep our democracy, we have to leave.
I will say this to any NO voter outside Scotland or anybody who did not experience the independence referendum: prepare for a shitstorm of fear and pro EU propaganda heading your way.big buisnesss and the banks will try and convince you that a brexit equals the UK becoming 3rd world. Newspapers will close ranks and side with the establishment. Your mental health will be questioned on a regular basis and journalistic standards will go out the window.
The BBC will be told to toe the pro EU line and will duly feed the nation a steady stream of bull and we will see a lot more of that idiot Nick Clegg, who will do anything for a place on the EU gravy train. Even selling his country down the river.
You have been warned.
The French seem to ignore all the EU rules, like cheese has to be kept on stainless steel shelves etc. Britain seems to play by the rules but the others don't. Don't mention Schengen, that has been a total farce. .
We don't play by the rules any more than the French do.
We just break different rules.And I saw this online today: we now have so many people needing to use foodbanks to survive that we can apply for financial aid from the relevant EU budget... but we haven't.
Yes we do Mike, there's too many jobsworths applying the rules. Go into the nearest grocers or a pharmacy and buy a bottle of cleaning alcohol, hydrochloric acid or carbon tetrachloride and when you can't, ask why? I'll bet they say they aren't allowed under EU regulations. Go into most shops in France and you'll get all of those and more for about a euro a bottle. My farming friends who produce milk and have very stringent rules on how and where their cows are milked loved the photo I took of an alpine farmer using a mobile stall arrangement in the field for milking.
I'm not sure about hydrochloric acid, but we still purchase "cleaning alcohol" as it is a base ingredient of a product we make and sell. As for carbon tetrachloride, it is banned because it is a serious carcinogen and should be kept well away from anyone.
Anyone interested in the mechanics of a Brexit will find the following radio programme informative:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06r5d0c
I was more concerned that Cameron confessed that he hasn't given any instructions for consideration of the mechanics of an exit by the Civil Service.It is a serious possibility and planning should be underway for the possibility.
R.M.F wrote: "I will say this to any NO voter outside Scotland or anybody who did not experience the independence referendum: prepare for a shitstorm of fear and pro EU propaganda heading your way.big buisness..."
I thought you pro Scots independence were pro-EU?
Will wrote: "I was more concerned that Cameron confessed that he hasn't given any instructions for consideration of the mechanics of an exit by the Civil Service.It is a serious possibility and planning shoul..."
I'm not sure what planning the Civil Service can actually do, because we don't know the deal that we'll negotiate as part of leaving. For example we have to agree not just a basic trade deal, but anti-dumping clauses and similar.
Because a lot of EU regulation has been 'passed' by the EU parliament, even if only as statutory instruments, it's come through as UK law and will continue to exist.
Which of these regulations we unpick and what sort of deal we negotiate at political issues rather than bureaucratic.
Looked at across the main fields
Defence Well we'll still be part of NATO and we've never been keen on EU armed forces. There'll be a bit of thinking to do about the various joint weapons programmes we have but they will fit under NATO
NHS No problem really, a political decision has to be taken about what encouragement we will have in place to get EU medical staff to continue to work here
Agriculture. Here there needs to be a Political decision as to what support if any will be given to UK agriculture, until this decision is made the bureaucrats can do nothing
Trade. This is probably where the big political discussions will take place. But again, until those discussions have taken place, there isn't a lot bureaucrats can do.
Immigration. This will be linked in with trade, how much movement of EU citizens into the UK and UK citizens into the EU is there going to be? What about people who own property in countries which have different rules for non-EU citizens, what about countries who have different medical or qualification checks for non-EU citizens. This has to be negotiated.
My guess is that even with a big vote to leave, and a government enthusiastic to negotiate, we might still be in the process of leaving during the next election. There is bound to be a transition period, so that people who came here under the old schemes can stay on etc.
I'd guess that we'd stop accepting new EU regulations within a month or so of the vote, but getting fully out would take quite a while
At the moment I have heard no sensible discussion at a political level about these matters. It's probably because all politicians are concentrated on short term, 'in' or 'out' and none of them want to muddy the waters by taking the discussion past that.
A fair bit of work has been done by various thinktanks who feed into the political debate and I suppose that will be drawn upon later.
The problem is that under Article 50, once we notify the EU that we wish to leave, we have two years to get everything sorted before we are out.The biggest problem is that we have no treaty negotiators as we handed that all over to the EU years ago. We need them to negotiate all the treaties we need in place once we leave.
Is it bad that I think reality is defective? That the Grim Reaper took the wrong one?Bowie is a greater contributor than Cameron to the quality of human life.
The problem with that is we're no longer allowed to ritually sacrifice politicians every spring to guarantee the harvest, the fertility of the ground, or the good health of the people. Frankly I don't think this country would suffer too much if we gave all six hundred and thirty the chop
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I will say this to any NO voter outside Scotland or anybody who did not experience the independence referendum: prepare for a shitstorm of fear and pro EU propaganda heading your way...."We're not one monolithic block. Out of the UK and the EU will suit me fine. There's no point regaining sovereignty from the cesspit that is Westminster, only to surrender it to the cesspit that is Brussels.
I'd much prefer it if Scotland modelled itself along the lines of Norway or Switzerland.
And before anybody says that an indy Scotland won't be able to go it alone, well, in a few weeks time, the pro-EU mob will be saying exactly the same about Britain and England if it leaves the EU.
And in breaking news, the head of the EA resigns, saying hat being paid £ 100K for 2 days work a week is not enough for him to be available at short notice in a crisis.Speechless.
The outcry about him not returning from holiday was daft, it's not as if he would have been out there with a bucket and spade.
Not sure I agree, for two reasons. First: as head he needed to show that the EA leadership were supporting their staff during the crisis, and secondly: it is one thing to be told someone's home has been flooded and see a photo, quite another to appreciate the devastation by actually seeing it and seeing the heartbroken people.
Will wrote: "Not sure I agree, for two reasons. First: as head he needed to show that the EA leadership were supporting their staff during the crisis, and secondly: it is one thing to be told someone's home has..."I think one big issue is the way the EA tried to 'cover up' about him not being there.
The other big issue was that from memory didn't he specifically say that when he got the job he would turn up at floods rather than hide himself away?
But anyway, if the Prime Minister is reading this, I've available for two days a week at £100K a year to do the job
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "I'm not sure about hydrochloric acid, but we still purchase "cleaning alcohol" as it is a base ingredient of a product we make and sell. As for carbon tetrachloride, it is banned because it is a se..."I used to use carbon tetrachloride to repair 35mm film when I was a wren. Had to keep the windows open.
Jim wrote: "PS I've even got my own wellies"I'll be your PA for half that if you supply my wellies.
Given that my wellies cost about the same as David Camerons, they're not a major expense.But I tend to get through about two pairs a year
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Individual Americans can be delightful people, but the..."
This is my experience too - the Americans I know personally are all normal people. But as a nation they appear to be thick as mince.