"The Picture of Dorian Gray" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

A few questions to get us started:


1. What did you think of the world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?7

[Alistair]

Oh, I am so ready for this.
Since it is the spoiler thread, I'm going uncensored.

I recently re-read the novel both for my own lessons and for another, mostly horror-themed, group on GR. At the time I started writing a review, but given my current brain drain status couldn't complete it. Let's start with some background:

What shall forever be known as "Wilde's only novel" started as a novella in Lippincott's Monthly Magazine: the editor J. M. Stoddart dined on 30 August 1889 with MP Thomas Patrick Gill, Arthur Conan Doyle and Oscar Wilde to commission both writers with a story for the magazine. I wonder at the amount of people who would now give a leg and several arms to be at that table; in the event, the results were The Sign of Four, published in February 1890¹, and the first version of The Picture of Dorian Gray, published in July 1890². The latter was exactly a hundred pages long and, infamously, 'edited', or censored: Stoddart deleted around 500 words that he deemed too compromising. For republication in novel format the following year, the author added half a dozen chapters, generally revised the text, but maintained Stoddart's excisions. The uncensored version was eventually published in 2011, but it remains little more than a curiousity.

¹ https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...
² https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

It would have been cool to have been near that table!

‘Dorian’ says a lot about social mores, it is difficult to know where to start. Basically, about performative behavior that hides our true selves from others, about what our true selves are, about how beautiful people, literally, get free passes from society from standards of morality, especially when combined with having a lot of money, about how men are permitted to walk from church to the nearest brothel being basically ok as long as it isn’t talked about.

[Melanie, the neutral party]

This is a reread for me, technically, but I have no memory of the book, so it feels completely fresh.

As I am listening, I can't get out of my head how Henry is so very much like a manosphere influence. Just spouting vitriol to the young to get a following to allow him to feel better about the awful person he is, and using 'science' to justify his choices.

But Dorian is also responsible for his own choices, even if enabled and reinforced by his sphere of influence.

[Becky]

LOL! I admit that manosphere influencer didn't come to mind for me. For me, Henry felt like one of those uncles that just claim to Know Everything and it makes them feel important to share their knowledge with you, even though it's clearly nonsense that would fall apart under the most gentle probing.

But I can definitely see manosphere influencer now that you've said it. Especially since he's so focused on appearance over everything.

[Melanie, the neutral party]

Right? Once I had the thought, it just started re-enforcing itself and now I can't not see it.

[Jae Xuân]

lol oh god, Henry would definitely have a podcast about the male loneliness epidemic, and I would hate that for us

[Becky]

The more I think about it, the more apt it gets!

100% He'd be either hosting or podcast-hopping to promote "repeal the 19th" talking points. He doesn't see women as fully human, and of course he doesn't think they should vote. (Didn't he say something along the lines of "it's a good thing women can't vote"? Or is it just something he WOULD say?)

[Jabotikaba]

Becky wrote: "LOL! I admit that manosphere influencer didn't come to mind for me. For me, Henry felt like one of those uncles that just claim to Know Everything and it makes them feel important to share their kn..."
I think he's somewhere in between those two. A "manosphere" influencer who Knows Everything (or at least thinks he does).

[Chris]

I think that Lord Henry's comments about women were more reflective of the age than of his own quirks.

I don't think that he really believes half of what he says. He likes to be edgy and have a reputation for cleverness. Not at all like Andrew Tate doing human trafficking and the looksmaxxer guy hitting his face with a hammer. Lord Henry is well-liked and respected. The tragedy lies in Dorian taking his words to heart, unlike the rest of his audience.

[Jae Xuân]

It’s not a quirk, the patriarchy kills women and queer people and that’s partly what the book is about. Many men who are well-liked and respected are still misogynists

[Chris]

I enjoyed the core of the story, but it came wrapped in a lot of padding. Too many irrelevant dinner table conversations and digressions into artistic trends. Chapter 11 was horrible. Maybe someday I will take a look at the original publication; 100 pages sounds like enough space to tell the tale without the fluff.

I found that the moralizing mixed together vile crimes like murder with vices that harm (mostly) only oneself and harmless self-indulgence in the arts. As if listening to African drummers was a gateway to butchery.

I also found the character development of Dorian to be difficult to believe. How does he go from strong passions of love and friendship to a selfish disregard for others? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a leap.

This description of 19th Century junk mail amused me:

They contained the usual collection of cards, invitations to dinner, tickets for private views, programmes of charity concerts, and the like that are showered on fashionable young men every morning during the season. There was a rather heavy bill for a chased silver Louis-Quinze toilet-set that he had not yet had the courage to send on to his guardians, who were extremely old-fashioned people and did not realize that we live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities; and there were several very courteously worded communications from Jermyn Street money-lenders offering to advance any sum of money at a moment’s notice and at the most reasonable rates of interest.

[Chris]

Jae wrote: "It’s not a quirk, the patriarchy kills women and queer people and that’s partly what the book is about. Many men who are well-liked and respected are still misogynists"

I agree that Lord Henry was a misogynist. However, so was almost everyone else at that time.

[Bethan]

Chris wrote: "I enjoyed the core of the story, but it came wrapped in a lot of padding. Too many irrelevant dinner table conversations and digressions into artistic trends. Chapter 11 was horrible. Maybe someday..."

I did find it rather drawn out. It's one of those Classics where the movie is actually better. I saw a really good version many years ago.

[Igor]

A really fine discussion!
I am rather late for this one, but I enjoyed reading all the comments.

I guess I should share my review of the book, too:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I hope it contributes to discussion.

[Bonnie]

"Yet, after some time, he wearied of them, and would sit in his box at the Opera, either alone or with Lord Henry, listening in rapt pleasure to ‘Tannhäuser’, and seeing in the prelude to that great work of art a presentation of the tragedy of his own soul."

Wagner - Tannhäuser Overture
https://youtu.be/Pi04QoZRiOE?is=c7Ea-...

Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, conducted by Roland Böer
Overture to the opera "Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf Wartburg" ('Tannhäuser and the Minnesängers' Contest at Wartburg', 1845)
Richard Wagner (1813-1883)

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Bonnie wrote: ""Yet, after some time, he wearied of them, and would sit in his box at the Opera, either alone or with Lord Henry, listening in rapt pleasure to ‘Tannhäuser’, and seeing in the prelude to that grea..."

Cool.

[Bonnie]

Melanie wrote: "As I am listening, I can't get out of my head how Henry is so very much like a manosphere influence. Just spouting vitriol to the young to get a following to allow him to feel better about the awful person he is, and using 'science' to justify his choices."

Yes! Outrageous takes on things, just for clicks.