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Why do most of the Sf shows on mainstream Tv not last?
Morgan wrote: "As long as the sci-fi show is heavy on drama (like Lost or BSG or Heroes), the sci-fi series does well.If you want to appeal to viewers right across the board, you need to make 'drama' the centra..."
That's a really good point.
And BSG was great for drama.
What makes f.ex. Firefly or Babylon 5 more SciFi than BSG? I'm honestly curious, because I always assumed "Contains SciFi elements" = SciFi. You might loathe BSG, but it still takes place on a Big Damned Spaceship, and a fair amount of the time is devoted to taking care of said spaceship. It being "too drama" is like saying if Red Dwarf is too funny it'll be comedy, not SciFi.
Can't get more dramatic than Star Trek.I Love sci-fi, whether it's drama, comedy or dramedy.
In response to the posts about BSG being less SciFi, I was wondering what people thought of Futurama. The show is basically a workplace sitcom that happens to be set 1000 years in the future. I think of Futurama as a SciFi show, but mainly because it contains SciFi elements. I guess that you could also classify it as a sitcom.If I recall correctly, Futurama was moderately successful while it was airing on Fox for 4 seasons, even though Fox executives didn't really support the show. It is now doing well on Comedy Central.
Look. Any genre (romance, science fiction, western, etc.) is NOTHING without a story line, be it drama, comedy, or whatever. Most great stories boil down to personal stories of people (or other [semi-]intelligent beings).If a SF story is just about technology with no foreground "drama" (or whatever), it would be so boring that only the author would watch it (or read it).
"Science fiction" is drama/humor/etc. told within an environment other than our current time and/or place, where science is still pretty much the same (albeit more advanced?) with an occasional wink towards FTL flight.
In other words, it's a (hopefully) entertaining yarn that's not fantasy, not history, and not contemporary.
Did I miss something?
Kernos wrote: "Jenelle wrote: "Battlestar Galactica was not sci-fi. It was drama. Set in space. Obnoxious, annoying drama. (sorry, had to get that out of my system) :) "I agree, though consider it soap opera. I..."
Nice to find someone else who isn't in love with BSG :)
Okay, yes, technically, I have to admit BSG has all the sci-fi elements, I just found it so overly filled with ridiculously contrived drama and zero redeeming qualities that the sci-fi sort of got lost (my opinion, not necessarily right or wrong, just my opinion). Gave it a fair shot, watched two and a half seasons and then just couldn't take it anymore.
Stargate wasn't overly full of drama. It had a nice dose of drama/comedy/and adventure. It seems, though, that (based solely on people I know, which is a small sampling of the general population, so this isn't across the board by any stretch of the imagination) if one LOVED Stargate, then one wasn't a huge fan of BSG and vice versa.
I really liked SG-1. Couldn't get into BSG (yes, for the soap-opera-y reasons), and gave up on SGU for the same reasons.Melodrama. Melodrama everywhere...
Colleen wrote: "I really liked SG-1. Couldn't get into BSG (yes, for the soap-operay reasons), and gave up on SGU for the same reasons.Melodrama. Melodrama everywhere..."
:)
I've started watching Revolution... Reminiscent of Jericho meets S.M. Stirlings The Change series. :) As a side note. I think myself and my boyfriend are two of the only people to really love Terra Nova and be sad that it was cancelled. :(
Kathryn wrote: "I've started watching Revolution... Reminiscent of Jericho meets S.M. Stirlings The Change series. :) As a side note. I think myself and my boyfriend are two of the only people to really love Ter..."
My hubby and I liked Terra Nova as well. It's sucked when they cancelled it. Stupid Fox. Grrr.
I liked "Jericho" and "Jeremiah," but I also watched each of them in one weekend, or in a relatively short period. I've watched two episodes of "Revolution," and that'll do it for me. They haven't made me care enough about the characters or situations, so far. I really enjoyed Flashforward, but the first couple of episodes didn't work for me.I also gave the new "V," a shot. (And it's yet another science fiction show at least partially set on a space ship since "Firefly." And it also had Morena Bacarin.)
OTOH, loved the new improved BSG and "Babylon 5" and "Firefly." I never watched "Terra Nova." "Futurama" usually makes me laugh while waiting for Jon Stewart to come on, but I don't seek it out.
If you liked Terra Nova, have you watched the BBC show Primeval? I've only seen the first two seasons but really enjoyed them. I think that was the main reason I just couldn't get into Terra Nova.
We loved Terra Nova too! You're not alone, Kathryn! Totally bummed it was cancelled, but love that they ended it on enough of a "closure" note that it felt semi-wrapped up.Did anyone watch V through the end? Because NOBODY told me that it just... ends. On a total cliffhanger. So... head's up... if you're watching it... zero closure.
Traci wrote: "If you liked Terra Nova, have you watched the BBC show Primeval? I've only seen the first two seasons but really enjoyed them. I think that was the main reason I just couldn't get into Terra Nova."I'll have to check it out.
Having worked in TV production, I can tell you that Networks are tied into how much advertising they can sell in a time slot. JJ Abram's Revolution will pick up millions of advertising in the trade shows in NY and if a show can't pull in money (compared to their operating budget), the networks will dump it in a NY minute. During pilot season they make all sorts of first episodes that get killed before they even air.
The BBC and cable don't operate the same way, so you often see a different criteria on cable than on the Networks. Sci Fi has grown more commercial over time and so its criteria has changed.
Networks are like a horse race and every week the executives read the trades like Variety and Hollywood Reporter to see the numbers.
This is why V got killed and Battlestar Galactica lasted a ton of seasons. Any channel reliant on commercials is going to kill shows that don't draw in the advertisers. And when Sci Fi started out, they seemed more experimental, less profit driven.
Sci Fi/ Fantasy shows last as long as money and prestige flow in.
I've been seeing people post on this thread and I've been trying to avoid it myself, but I can't resist any longer. It's simple: MOST shows don't last on TV. Genre doesn't necessarily have much to do with it. Tons and tons of shows are cancelled every year because they just aren't good or nobody is watching them or both. Some only make it a couple of episodes before they are pulled.The same goes or sci-fi and fantasy shows. Those that get cancelled usually do because they stink (like The Event) or they cost too much for the amount of profit they pull in (like Terra Nova or Sarah Conner). Sci-fi shows tend to require a lot of special effects so they cost more to produce and, thus, they need more people watching.
There are of course a few exceptions. Sometimes good shows get cancelled too soon (like Firefly) and sometimes bad or unpopular shows get renewed (like Dollhouse, which was a lot better in the second season).
That said, there many sci-if and fantasy shows that have lasted many seasons (some great, some not so much): Buffy, Angel, Lost, Next Gen, X-Files, Supernatural, Smallville, Babylon5, BSG, Eureka, etc.
My experience the few times I was in LA was that it's all about the financing. I spent some time with Dan Curtis who did the original Dark Shadows and Kolchak The Night Stalker and all he was doing was meeting people trying to get money.The issue of story arc is another problem. Does the story pusher know where it's going?
I totally agree with Mike and Bob. LA is a factory town and what we make is films, so there is this weirdly practical side of the creative process here. But what is amazing is how beautiful, inventive stories break through and take everyone by surprise. I am loving the True Blood, Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. I've got to check out Revolution too.
Have watched the first two episodes of Revolution - so far I'm very interested.
Al wrote: ""Science fiction" is drama/humor/etc. told within an environment other than our current time and/or place, where science is still pretty much the same (albeit more advanced?) with an occasional wink towards FTL flight."This is an inaccurate definition. Science Fiction is not limited by milieu. It can literally be in any setting or time. The reality is that Science Fiction on television is cheaper to make by setting in modern day.
Person of Interest is as Science Fictional as anything else out there, as are any of the CSI shows. The stuff they have and do in those shows are completely, utterly impossible with modern technology. That's Science Fiction.
Saying SF has to be "spaceships and ray guns" is as limiting as saying Fantasy has to be "elves and magic rings."
Traci wrote: "If you liked Terra Nova, have you watched the BBC show Primeval? I've only seen the first two seasons but really enjoyed them. I think that was the main reason I just couldn't get into Terra Nova."I disliked Terra Nova immensely. All of that talent squandered on such terrible, terrible writing.
Once I got into Primeval, I liked it quite a lot. One of the things that I especially liked about it was that it had the cojones to go with the premise it had set up and follow it to the logical conclusion. Permanently killing main characters, altering the timeline... very few shows have that kind moxie. Usually they're cable shows like The Walking Dead.
Jenelle wrote: "Stargate wasn't overly full of drama. It had a nice dose of drama/comedy/and adventure. It seems, though, that (based solely on people I know, which is a small sampling of the general population, so this isn't across the board by any stretch of the imagination) if one LOVED Stargate, then one wasn't a huge fan of BSG and vice versa."Count me as +1 in that data. I really enjoyed SG1 and despised BSG. I mean, the "spacesuits" in one episode of BSG looked like they came from Sears. How is it possible that regular workaday suit-and-tie outfits you can see in any city end up on the other side of the galaxy? Combine that with the achingly awful story and I was out.
For my money, Journeyman was the best science fiction on television to be cancelled before its time - but, then again, I'm a sucker for time travel.I'd rate Fringe as the best science fiction currently on television, and I'm sorry this is its last season. I like Revolution, and Person of Interest and even Last Resort are almost science fiction, too. V and Terra Nova last year were just ok (and V, in my opinion, didn't measure up to the original mini-series in the 1980s). Alcratraz deserved to be cancelled.
Paul, please explain how you mean that "Last Resort" is science fiction. It's one of my favorite new shows this year, but it's more of a workplace drama, for those of us whose workplaces are nuclear subs...I get Trike's point that "Person of Interest" is science fictional.
Hi Julia - well, I did say "almost science fiction" about Last Resort :) But what I meant by that is the new secret system that that woman is selling in Washington, which somehow figures into this. The impression she is giving and we are getting is that the system does something a little more than what's in place today.
Hi Paul, Thanks, yeah that weapon system on "Last Resort" is pretty snazzy, I guess. And the show's been cancelled since we last wrote about it, or that's when I read it anyway.
Yeah - the show will play out 13 episodes, and that's it. I hope they have some resolution at the end.
I haven't read the previous posts, so I may just be echoing someone, but I know that I won't watch a show that isn't character driven. No interesting characters = no interest. :-D That's why the Stargate Franchise, the Star Trek Franchise, Quantum Leap, etc., made it as long as they did.
Lea, you're absolutely right. It's the character of Walter that keeps me watching Fringe.
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Most times they think CG makes up for Acting and Story...
I don't think anyone has mentioned Doctor Who yet that has been on and off for 50 years and survived through many seasons and 11 different Doctors.
Alicja wrote: "I don't think anyone has mentioned Doctor Who yet that has been on and off for 50 years and survived through many seasons and 11 different Doctors."It is rather the exception that proves the rule. It did fall out of favor for quite some time, though, when sci-fi wasn't as popular.
Of course, it does have the one genius idea at its core that no other show has: the lead character can be changed. I can't think of any other series which has that feature, which allows for both longevity and reinterpretation.
That really is a brilliant idea.
It certainly was brilliant! They can change everything about Dr. Who without having to bend or destroy the world's thematic.
I'm just jumping in here, but some of the recent network show's I've loved are Terra Nova, V, and The Cape. I really thought the Cape was going somewhere, a real superhero show! I don't know why Network doesn't last as long as cable. I think the networks are in it for a quicker turnover and scifi requires a longer buildup. We need time to build characters and worlds and that takes more than 10 or 13 episodes sometimes even with good writing. I don't see Defiance mentioned on any recent posts, I loved Farscape which is by the same creators and so far I'm impressed.
It'll be interesting to see how Agents of Shield works out on ABC, when they didn't have much patience for No Ordinary Family.I thought Journeyman and The Cape would do really well, but the network suits pulled them too quickly.
Speaking of The Cape, isn't the guy who played him now Monroe on Revolution?
Kevin wrote: "It certainly was brilliant! They can change everything about Dr. Who without having to bend or destroy the world's thematic."And since he travels in time and space, it really doesn't matter if he spends more time in the 1960s or 2010s. It can update technology and adjust to modern time without losing the spirit of it.
Cliff wrote: "I thought Journeyman and The Cape would do really well, but the network suits pulled them too quickly..."Agree completely about Journeyman - which, in its final episodes, really went into some fine, sophisticated time travel loops and paradoxes.
I liked Journeyman too! It was like a higher stakes version of Quantum Leap. And yes, the guy from The Cape is now Monroe on Revolution. He was on ER for one of the last seasons as well. David Lyons.
Paul wrote: "Cliff wrote: "I thought Journeyman and The Cape would do really well, but the network suits pulled them too quickly..."
Agree completely about Journeyman - which, in its final episodes, really wen..."
So I watch "Arrow." Not for it's primary leads, though now I see their charms, but for the 'Dads.' Paul Blackthorne plays Detective Lance who is the Arrow's on/ off girlfriend/ friend's Dad. I knew him when as Harry Dresden for a season. John Barrowman, who I knew as Captain Jack Harkness, plays the Arrow's best friend's Dad. Colin Salmon was Stepdad to the Arrow. This show has been a success for the CW is coming back.I never got around to watching "Journeyman" or "The Cape," but I quite enjoyed the two or three episodes of "No Ordinary Family" I saw.
I also like No Ordinary Family. After The Shield, it was weird seeing Michael Chiklis be...nice.
Kevin wrote: "I also like No Ordinary Family. After The Shield, it was weird seeing Michael Chiklis be...nice."Chiklis on The Shield was so searingly incandescent, I can't watch him in anything else.
Trike wrote: "Person of Interest is as Science Fictional as anything else out there, as are any of the CSI shows. The stuff they have and do in those shows are completely, utterly impossible with modern technology"Just circling back to this. I of course agree about POI, but what's science fictional about CSI? (I have a pretty good but not infallible knowledge of forensic detection, which I acquired over the years when researching my Phil D'Amato science fiction / mystery stories.)
Paul wrote: "Just circling back to this. I of course agree about POI, but what's science fictional about CSI? (I have a pretty good but not infallible knowledge of forensic detection, which I acquired over the years when researching my Phil D'Amato science fiction / mystery stories.) "I can sum it up in one word: "Enhance."
You mean CSI "enhances" to science fictional status what can be done with DNA detective work? I haven't seen every episode of the original series and its spin-offs, but I don't recall this in any episode I've seen.
Or perhaps Trike is referring to when they "enhance" blurry images to get crystal-clear renderings of faces and license plates? That always makes me laugh.
I guess that would be a question of how much those images can be enhanced in reality - certainly digital reconstructions are already available.Also, I tend to think that a slight exaggeration of what can be done in reality is not really science fiction - which I would reserve for time travel, ftl travel, teleportation, robots with intelligence, aliens from other planets, and those kinds of major departures from what we know. But that's just me :) - or maybe we should distinguish between slight science fiction vs. science fiction.
They don't last because producers hire incompetent writers who don't really know what SciFi is all about. The secondary reason is that they seem to think a series should last for decades. They need to understand that a basic premise can only go so long before it literally wears a hole in the carpet. I think things would be much better (and livelier) if they would write it with the knowledge that it is intended to go 2 or 3 years and end.
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If you want to appeal to viewers right across the board, you need to make 'drama' the central genre of your TV show.
Either that or comedy. Really funny comedy.