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The Picture of Dorian Gray - Chapters 1-5
Some favorite lines:"Yes; she is a peacock in everything but beauty..." (p. 9)
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it." (p. 21)
"And Beauty is a form of Genius--is higher, indeed, than Genius, as it needs no explanation." (p. 24)
"Always! That is a dreadful word....Women are so fond of using it. They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever." (p. 26)
"I wonder who it was defined man as a rational animal. It was the most premature definition ever given." (p. 30)
"A long engagement exhausts them, but they are capital at a steeplechase." [Regarding the longevity of an engagement to an American woman.] (p.37)
"Why can't these American women stay in their own country? They are always telling us that it is the Paradise for women....It is. That is the reason why, like Eve, they are so excessively anxious to get out of it." (p.38)
"...brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect." (p. 42)
"To get back one's youth one has merely to repeat one's follies." (p. 44)
[Page numbers from the Barnes and Noble Classics version.]
"Of all people in the world the English have the least sense of the beauty of literature." (p. 46)
Mod
I also got bored with Wilde's snarky remarks and sweeping generalizations. Men are like this, women are like this, one should do this... maybe if he didn't scatter them in almost every page it wouldn't annoy me so much. But that was a few years ago, it would be interesting to see how I feel about it if I read it now.
Yes, it does seem to me that Harry probably *is* Oscar Wilde--he spends the whole time making (ridiculous) sweeping generalizations, which *sound* good but are generally quite false, or logically untenable.Still, I've finished the book and it was great, much to my surprise!
;)
T
Ach! I need to get reading and am slow finishing this Jen Lancaster book that was SUPPOSED to be fun after the intensity of Bridge of Sighs. Guess this means I will have to spend the afternoon reading. Sigh! Life is tough!
I read this book back in High School, and I loved it. I hadn't heard much about it before I picked it up, so I wasn't expecting anything more than what it was. I had a love-hate relationship with Dorian Gray all throughout the book. It was one of those morbid fascinations where you want to stop reading, but still want to know what happens. On Oscar Wilde, I think he is the most over-quoted literary figure out there. Like Dini, I got bored with his quotes quickly. The first time, its funny, the fifth time you see it, it gets old.
add me to the not so wild about Wilde camp. Good story but the wit gets tiring.
I think I find that Wilde (or his characters) are spoiled rich guys who are bored with life. So while they are intelligent and make witty remarks about life, love, and whathaveyou, it still comes out as someone who really knows nothing about any of it since their lives are so narrowly lead.
The question in this section though is do you believe that Dorian would have truly thought about his aging youth had Lord Harry not mentioned it? Does Lord Harry bear some responsibility for Dorian's outcome or was this just some latent personality trait that was bound to come out?(My impression so far is that Dorian, while he knew he was good looking, never gave much thought to it until Harry pointed out how quickly it will all end.)
I definitely think it was Lord Henry's influence. LH or Harry is Mephistopheles (sp) to Dorian's innocence and goodness and thus the deal is inevitable. i had totally forgotten how deliciously bubbling this was however so am really enjoying re-reading it. Even so, I see the tiresomeness of the endless comments folks have mentioned though it's a bit wearing, I think I've been away from it long enough that I'm just chuckling at the endlessness of them rather than being annoyed. Make sense?
Yes like Dottie I also thought Harry was Mephistopheles--actually, since I'd never read the book before and had no idea how the thing with the painting was going to work, I thought for a time he literally was the Devil. Now I see he's just doing the Devil's work.The thing that gets me, and I think this is very much at the end of the first 5 chapters is--WHAT IS THE BOOK???
I have some ideas, and will share them when we get to talking about that!
;)
T
This is my first post! Was anyone else shocked by the first couple pages of this book? For a book from this time period I wasn't expecting such blatant homosexuality, mostly from the character Basil. It definitely intrigued me.
I had forgotten how open this story was in that regard also. It has been a very long time since I read this. BUT the edition I have addresses the novel in regard to Wilde's own life and i'll post a bit of the info when I get the book back in here by the computer. I know the main fact put forth is that this book was used in the trial which ended with Wilde imprisoned for his own homosexuality and behavior but there is more to it than that IIRC.And oh yes -- WELCOME Emily.
Here is the quote from the biographical entry at the front of the 1992 Modern Library edition of this which I am reading:The Picture of Dorian Gray was commissioned by J. M. Stoddardt, the Philadelphia publisher of Lippincott's Monthly Magazine. It appeared in the July 1890 issue and immediately gained a certain notoriety for being "mawkish and nauseous," "unclean," "effeminate," and "contaminating." When it was published as a book the following year, Wilde greatly revised and expanded the text, filling it out with a melodramatic subplot and adding a preface that defended his aesthetic philosophy. As for the book's value as autobiography, Wilde noted in a letter that the main characters are in different ways reflections of him: "Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry what the world thinks me: Dorian what I would like to be - in other ages, perhaps." ....
...and in 1893 he distanced himself from his family by taking rooms at the Savoy Hotel. He had by then embarked on a passionate relationship with the considerably younger Lord Alfred Douglas, the English translator of Salome, whom he had met the year after he wrote The Picture of Dorian Gray. In March 1895, Wilde undertook a libel action against the Marquess of Queensberry, Lord alfred's father, who had denounced Wilde as a "somdomite" (sic).
Note: this action was withdrawn but after some damaging cross-examination had taken place and shortly after that Wilde was arrested for homosexual offenses and after two trials was sentenced to hard labor at Wandsworth Prison and Reading Gaol.
On the front flap info there is this:
... the tale of Dorian Gray's moral disintegration caused soemthing of a scandal whin it first appeared in 1890. Wilde was attacked for his decadence and corrupting influence. He responded that while he was "quite incapable of understanding how a work of art can be criticized from a moral standpoint," there is, in fact, "a terrible moral in Dorian Gray." A few years later the book and the aesthetic/moral dilemma it presented became issues in the trial occasioned by Wilde's homosexual liaisons, trial that resulted in his imprisonment.
Whoa. From getting arrested for homosexual offenses to the fight for gay marriage... we certainly have come a long way, with a long way still to go.
I can see how this book had the effects it had in the age in which it appeared. Yikes!And, yes, changes and not. An interesting topic for contemplation alongside this book perhahps?
I was interested by the homosexual comments, because, sometimes it is hard to tell if they're really meant to be homosexual. In Jane Austen, the people profess their love for each other, other girls, all the time. But that was about devotion. Dorian Gray is about obsession and control. It's weird and I would love to hear how different someone of my Grandmother's generation, where homosexuality has not been permitted to be public, might take their "love" for each other.I do like Wilde's snarky comments. I don't think that Wilde pictures himself as that interesting. Harry makes a comment that true artists are boring, so i'd imagine he considers himself boring. Plus the posting from Dottie that points out that he sees himself as Basil. I bet he is a man who didn't have the guts, but would love to announce offensive and absurd philosophies on life, much as I imagine the writer for the TV show "House" would also love to do.
Gwynne - Interesting theory. I often wonder if Wilde wrote half this stuff just for the shock value, not necessarily because he felt it was important to say.Also, I have been pondering what Dottie wrote about how Wilde views himself and how he thinks the world views him. It makes me wonder if Harry and Basil are the two sides of his personality?
It makes me think about certain actors who play very outgoing, charismatic characters but in real life are rather introverted. For example, Jason Lee (of My Name is Earl fame). I sat in on a Q&A with Kevin Smith, director of Clerks movie. He was teling a story about how he had to asked Jason to stop doing the press tour for the movie Mallrats. When asked a question, Jason was quiet and serious and sincerely tried to answer their questions. People were getting confused and disappointed. They wanted "Brodie", the wild and crazy comic guy, not this "normal" quiet dude.
On the other hand, do you think Wilde kind of bought into the hype and couldn't see himself for who he truly was?
I've heard Christopher Guest is like that too, and so is Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell said in the commentary for Stranger Than Fiction, I think, that he's always "in character" for his interviews because he's way too shy to just be Will. And Christopher Guest has said that at home, he's very serious all the time. So unlike Corky St. Clair or Harlan Pepper.
Mod
So I guess this goes back to those Victorian mores...should one repress or indulge those temptations of the senses...giving into impulses and hedonism...living for youth and beauty. I guess I'll find out as I read, but I have a feeling it's not a happy ending for Mr. Gray! (I have read this, but remember nothing about it)
So one could say that England is the repressed side and America is the hedonistic side. So does that make Australia the combination of the two? hehBut that's interesting about Hyde. I'm only on Chapter 7, but you're beginning to see the cruelty come out in Dorian, where before he was all "goodness and light". That's a great nod from Wilde to Stevenson.
I found the snarky comments to be pretty funny, but outrageous at the same time. I really enjoyed the beginning of the book (I'm not sure where Chap. 5 ends, so I won't say too much). I was amazed at the homosexual overtones considering the time period. I didn't know anything about Wilde before I read the introduction to the beginning of my book, so it's interesting to read the comments about him here (especially about him relating to the different characters). I really began to dislike/hate Dorian Gray, but I think it happened later then these chapters.
Well, his change doesn't really start in the first 5 chapters. To me, here, he actually is rather bland and boring. I found Lord Henry infinitely more amusing, which I think is the point. But I could only take LH in small increments. Droll is not good in large quantities. Otherwise, it would be like living with Robin Williams 24-7. oy to the p and the oodles.
The snarkiness (good word by the way) was funny to me, and in a much overdone way, they reminded me of the hero in Northanger Abbey (I've lost his name from my memory). Of course, that guy was delightful and LH was mostly just obnoxious, but the comparison stands. Especially some of the remarks about the "true" nature of women. However, the NA character said them as funny things more or less, and LH says them as inflammatory, disparaging, outrageous commentaries.
Was I the only one who noticed how women were only in this book to be made fun of, or to be used, so to speak?T
It makes one question what kind of mother Mr. Wilde had. He seems to have a subconscious need to insult women at every turn.However, it also makes me wonder if what is so insulting is that there is a ring of truth in all his comments. As much as I don't LIKE him mocking women, I know women (myself included) who have done one or several of the things he mocks.
And considering Lord Henry's place in society, smart, outgoing, intelligent women his age probably are far and few between. Not that this makes it right, but it doesn't make it untrue either.
I've finished the first six chapters of the book, and I am loving it. I am a huge fan of Oscar Wilde, especially in regard to a book of fairy tales that he wrote. He was known for his satiric view of English society during the time when he wrote, and he was a closet homosexual who was married with children, but cheated on his wife with other men, one of whom he fell helplessly in love with, which ultimately caused his demise. Therefore, the homosexual overtones in the beginning of the book, in my opinion, are a reflection of Wilde's feelings for the young men with whom he had a long-time affair. I've never read anything that Wilde disliked women, so I am surprised that his attitude is negative in the book; however, he may be reflecting societal attitudes during that time rather than his own.
It doesn't appear that there any Wilde fans resulting from the reading of this book, but if anyone is interested in seeing a movie that depicts Wilde's life, there is one called "Wilde" that was made in the mid-1990s. The story is great; however, I will warn you that the movie has graphic, gay sex and alot of it, which I believe distracted from the main story. It's a shame, because I felt that the sex was gratuitous and borderline pornographic, but my admiration for Wilde grew after I watched the movie - not because of the sex - ha ha - but because he was a brilliant, conflicted man who could not find a place to live in society where he could be himself. I found it all to be quite tragic, really.
I've always wanted to read more Wilde so I'm glad that we are reading this book.
Mod
This is brilliant stuff and gets better toward the end.
Alison -- that's an excellent connection because much of Screwtape's own dialogue is like Lord Henry's. And Dorian's "prayer"/wish uttered so casually is nothing less than Faustian hence Mephistopheles seemed an appropriate role for Harry whose comments led up to that moment on the first evening when Basil was finishing the portrait.
I have to say that I'm struggling a bit with this one. I think it's mainly that I'm getting tired of all of Lord Henry's social commentary and I just want to get to the story already but instead of just pushing through it I seem to only be reading it in the tiniest increments. I'm really enjoying all the comments so far, especially the stuff about Mephistopheles. I'm interested to see where it goes from here.
I think maybe I'm getting a bit desensistized but the homosexual stuff wasn't as blatant as I was expecting, especially knowing Wilde's history. I'm sure for the time it was shocking but I was really expecting much more., maybe there's more to come in that department.
In The Burning of Bridget Cleary (which is the true story of a woman in Ireland who was murdered by her husband and other relatives because they believed she was a changeling left behind by the fairies) there is a a lot about Wilde's trial which was going on at the same time . I'm going to have to dig it out and see if it offers any other information, but it seems like most of you have it covered here!
I'm hoping I start to like this book more, it's not doing it for me yet.
Forgot something-I found it strange that Dorian seemingly had no idea of how good looking he was and then he has one conversation with Lord Henry and he's terrified of losing his good looks. It just seemed way over the top to me (but then so is everything that Lord Henry says so why should I be surprised!)
Joanie, I viewed the primary impetus behind Dorian's falling in love with his looks as the portrait that Basil painted of him. Did you ever take a really good photo and say "hey, I'm not so bad looking" - I view Dorian's response to his portrait as similar to that but on steroids. Dorian also fell in love with Lord Henry's voice, which, in my opinion, then gave Henry's words more credibility. I just think that Dorian is young and impressionable, and he views Henry as worldly, albeit cynical.
That's a good point Sera, I hadn't thought of that in terms of the picture. And you're right, it is kind of like a super amped up response to seeing a good picture of yourself. Still weird, but you make a good point!
Mod
Alison,Agreed re: the Mephistopheles parallel.
Now, I may be in the wrong section of postings, but does anyone have any idea what "the book" was that Dorian becomes so addicted to?
T
I was curious about that too but lost track of it in the pleasant rush of finishing the book. Glad you brought it up. I was wondering if it was something like The Arabian Nights or The Kama Sutra. Oh my, bad, bad, bad -- but that was the fleeting thought I had. Anyone else have other ideas or thoughts as to what it may have been?
Mod
Here's my question....maybe this should come later, but anyway...what is this book really saying about the life without restraint? I mean, we're not all meant to be Puritans, are we? Are we meant to strike a balance between the two worlds? Are we meant to learn from our mistakes? What is the real message here?
Okay, just for the readers who are just starting out...the "book" they are all refering to isn't introduced until the next section, Chapters 6-10.That said, I found it interesting that Dorian was so profoundly impacted by such a book. I was thinking about books that have effected me and the only one that I can think of that came anywhere close is The Alchemist by Paulo Coehl. Fortunately, this book influenced me in a positive way. But I think this speaks to the power of words.
Well, Alison, that is a great question. I can't answer it yet. I think I have to read the whole book and see what fate eventually befalls Dorian. But later on, Dorian does go and say, "There is a little heaven and hell in us all."Ancient Chinese philosophy speaks on the importance of balance in ones life. I would say that Dorian's life is a good indication of what happens when one falls too heavily on one side of the coin.
Mod
The Yellow Book
"Lord Henry gives Dorian a copy of the yellow book as a gift. Although he never gives the title, Wilde describes the book as a French novel that charts the outrageous experiences of its pleasure-seeking protagonist (we can fairly assume that the book in question is Joris-Karl Huysman’s decadent nineteenth-century novel À Rebours, translated as “Against the Grain” or “Against Nature”). The book becomes like holy scripture to Dorian, who buys nearly a dozen copies and bases his life and actions on it. The book represents the profound and damaging influence that art can have over an individual and serves as a warning to those who would surrender themselves so completely to such an influence."
Thanks, Alison. So it seems the book is similar to the thoughts I had concerning it. Where did you find this information? I don't consider researching questions on what we read as cheating at all and find that when participants find bits which add to the understanding of a book and share them it gives added depth to the process.
Mod
My book finally came in today! I can't believe how long it took hope it was worth the wait!
Mod
Angie - I've never been completely bursting with anticipation to read this book, but the story pleasantly surprised me. I really enjoyed it and though Wilde's writing was my kind of style. It dragged in a couple of places for me but it was more out of impatience to know the end than anything else. I've read so many books that refer to Dorian Gray, I really like that I now have a better background of what this story is truly about.I hope you enjoy it! Looking forward to your thoughts on the book.
I'm so behind! I just perused everyone else comments ,and I've never read this book before so I don't know what's to come, but I didn't get the impression that Lord Harry was the devil. I thought that he was just trying to seduce Dorian. I got the impression that is was sort of like Dangerous Liaisons where he just wanted to see if he could get Dorian to fall for him. And so far, it seems like he succeeded. I felt so badly for Basil, to lose his muse to someone who was supposed to be a friend.
It's okay, Olive, I'm behind, too.Re: the Wilde movie... Jude Law goes full frontal in it.
I agree that it seems like Lord Henry/Harry is trying to get Dorian to fall in love with him. And my goodness, isn't Basil jealous. Poor Basil.
Alison, what is this yellow book you are talking about? Did he give it to him between Chapters 1-5? I missed it. Also, I actually did not notice the homosexual language until reading these posts! I only just finished ch. 5 but now I see it. I am not sure why I didn't see it at first though. I guess I just thought they were close friends. I am enjoying it so far... but I did think it was going to be more of a spooky story. Right now I am curious about Jim's role later in the book. I also noticed the tones used for women, and it basically sys they can't think and just look pretty.
Anyway, has anyone else started to read this book? I wasn't really looking forward to it but as I hadn't been able to read anything for last month, I thought I should. I already know the Pygmalion story so I thought I'd start out with Dorian.
What a pleasant surprise! I mean I guess I shouldn't be. I've seen some movie versions of Wilde's works and have enjoyed them. He has a very easy going writing style. But this book reads quite easily.
But I think what surprises me is that I generally don't like British "classics". I'm not a huge fan of Austen, either Brontes, Dickens, etc. Maybe it's because it was published in the late 19th century that it feels more "modern".
I definitely think that Wilde is the master of snark. And his distaste for women is quite evident.