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Pygmalion
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I grew up watching "My Fair Lady" (my dad's favorite movie, our 1st dog's name was Higgin's!) so of course I keep picturing Audrey Hepburn and Rex Harris. I'm really enjoying reading it and picturing it all in my head.One thing that struck me in the book (or play I guess) is how Eliza just won't let it go about her having every right to be there and that she did nothing wrong even when no one is paying attention to her. It just felt more like she liked being the center of attention and is trying to draw everyone back to her once they start talking about something else. Mabye I'm just too cynical now from working with adolescent girls for too long but it felt more needy to me than I ever remember it feeling before. I just kept wanting to telling her to get over it, no one cares but then again, maybe that's how you're supposed to feel about Eliza at that point.
I am just past Act I as well. I decided, having read it a billion years ago, to listen to a performance of it on cd. I find the concept of the "ability to pass" for another class incredibly interesting. Diction no longer seems such a touchstone as it does in Pygmalion but it is still an enduring concept that we are "placed" in society by certain factors and the only way to move beyond our place is to fake it through/change those factors.
I think you raise an interesting subject Courtney. I think diction still plays a very important role in our society (I am referring to Americans since that's what I know).
Think of all the actors who "drop" their accents in order to get various parts. Businessmen who take public speaking courses in order to gain that promotion. How you speak is just as important in an interview as what's on your resume.
And just as Higgins could place someone within the various districts of England, you could place Americans to their proper state. I've been told by Califorians that I have a "Michigan" accent (which is good I suppose, since I'm from Michigan). Most people can recognize a Boston accent versus a NY Bronx one. You can tell a Texan from a Venice Beach surfer.
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Courtney, the book reminds me of a Sociolinguistics class back in college, where my lecturer talked about the use of 'the Queen's English' or 'BBC English' as the seemingly intelligent and proper language in Britain. Higgins would most likely be a staunch supporter of this...
Whether one supports it or not makes little difference, people DO judge you on the quality of your English. Obviously here (the US) we don't care so much about the "Queen's English"... but accents do matter.I'm not sure what the 'intelligent' or 'proper' accent would be in America but I can tell you what it *isn't* -- Brooklyn, or New Jersey, or SoCal surfer dude, etc.
T
I think it's funny how accents can even vary from city to city within one state. I live just south of Boston and there is a difference in the accents of people just within the state. Some subsections of Boston like Dorchester are really heavy on dropping R and ing from words but then if you go further south, closer to Rhode Island it's totally different. Unfortunately there are some accents that make people sound less intelligent, Boston and New York being good examples. You could be the most educated person in the world but when you start dropping R's and ing you just don't sound so bright.
As far as "proper" or standard American English goes, I think you could make an argument for it being "TV" English. I'm from Seattle and I've heard people say that in the Northwest we "don't have an accent" (which is just linguistically inaccurate, everyone has an accent). I think people say this because we do speak "newscaster English" or maybe you could call it "sitcom English."I also think that, while it's true people make judgements about you based on your accent, we're more willing to change our initial impressions of people's intelligence once we've heard what they're actually saying. In that way, maybe we're a little less classist than the England of Eliza's day.
Haven't read the posts here yet but I wanted to say -- I'm coming -- pulled the copy of this which I finally picked up a couple of years ago in order to re-read (and then didn't do so) off the shelf and will begin this evening. I love the story and I know I'm going to enjoy the discussion wtih this group.
Mary you're probably right.As some of the denizens here know, I've been chasing a girl whom I call "The Memphis Belle" for obvious reasons. She has a drawl as slow as molasses when she wants to--but she is also one of the smartest women I have *ever* met...
Oddly enough, or maybe because of that, she's able to drop the accent when she wants...
Funny huh?
T
******SPOILERS********I just finished the play last night and it wasn't what I had expected. I had My Fair Lady in my head while reading it, unaware that that story had a much different ending than this one. I like the Pygmalion ending better, because it was unexpected and it sent a stronger message about how much Eliza had changed from her experience by becoming independent and focused on what she needed to do to better her future.
Question for those who have read the book: Did you like the ending of Pygmalion or My Fair Lady better? I personally liked the Pygmalion ending better. In my notes to the book, it stated that Shaw was criticized because although he was supposed to write a feminist novel, Eliza ends up dependent on Pickering for money and Higgins for her continued education in some ways. However, I viewed it as her taking payback for what was rightfully hers. I didn't view her actions as being dependent at all. In my opinion, those two men owed her for what they did to her, and therefore, she should have continued to take help from them, whether it be financially or otherwise. It didn't look they had much else to do any way.
How did everyone feel about Shaw's use of phonetic dialogue? The preface of my book is dedicated to the history of phonetics, which I found to be quite interesting. It also brought to mind an important childhood memory for me.As some of you know, I am a first generation American in my family. My parents emigrated here, and they are both Ukrainian. Ukrainian was my first language, and I didn't learn to speak any English until I was four years old. In the first and second grades at school, we were taught to read through the use of phonetics. Ha ha - I know all about the "schwa e". I remember it well, because the teacher had the phonetic alphabet posted across the top of the blackboard. I learned to read very quickly using this approach, but some students found it difficult to switch from this alphabet to the pure English one in later grades.
Did anyone else learn to read using this approach? If so, what are your thoughts on its usage? Did it help you or hurt you? I think that some students felt that it hurt them, because it was akin to learning to two sets of alphabets instead of one. I, however, found it to be useful, but then again, maybe that's because I found the success with it, while others did not.
By the time my brother went to school four years later, the school had abandoned the use of this approach so I guess overall they didn't find it to be very helpful.
Mod
I also want to admit a deep dark secret (to quote Joanie) that I know next to nothing about My Fair Lady. I googled it the other day, though, and read that Hollywood adapted it into Pretty Woman and She's All That. So I guess that means the ending is similar to those movies?
Not exactly, Dini. Please, Please, Please see if you can get a DVD of it! It's my all-time favorite musical and the role I dream most of playing on the stage. Audrey Hepburn was magnificent in it (although some people were upset that she beat Julie Andrews, who originated the role on Broadway, for the part).
Dini, while I love Pretty Woman the similarities to My Fair Lady are minimal. My Fair Lady is awesome and Audrey Hepburn is amazing. She is absolutely stunning, the woman was born to wear clothes! Watch it, you'll love it.
I *thought* I had read Pygmalion in high school, but as I read this, it quickly became evident that I'd actually read My Fair Lady. Like Sera, I was pleasantly surprised by the differences between Pygmalion and My Fair Lady, and prefer Shaw's ending. I don't necessarily think that Eliza is taking back what she's owed, or being too dependent on Higgins and Pickering. I see it more as she's developed a relationship with them and because they care for her, it's natural for them to help her get on her feet. It seems like they have a very parental relationship.One thing that I missed from MFL was the depiction of the process of Higgins teaching Eliza to speak. It was such a source of humor.
With blackest moss the flower pots were thickly crusted one and all.
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"Higgins:...you have no idea how frightfully interesting it is to take a human being and change her into a quite different human being by creating a new speech for her. It's filling up the deepest gulf that separates class from class and soul from soul."
"Liza:...You see, really and truly, apart from the things anyone can pick up (the dressing and the proper way of speaking, and so on), the difference between a lady and a flower girl is not how she behaves, but how she's treated."
"Higgins:...The great secret, Eliza, is not having bad manners or good manners or any other particular sort of manners, but having the same manner for all human souls: in short, behaving as if you were in Heaven, where there are no thrid-class carriages, and one soul is as good as another."
Finished last night. I thought it was interesting that Shaw switched from the play format to a more standard narrative. I liked there being more information on what happens to Eliza and Freddy but I really didn't care about what happened to Clara and was surprised that Shaw devoted so much time to continuing her story. The Freudian stuff about Higgins seeing every woman as a rival to his mother kind of annoyed me but it's funny in a way too. I guess Shaw was trying to provide some rationale for not having Higgins and Eliza end up together.
I liked the ending but I miss the whole "I've grown accustomed to her face" revelation from My Fair Lady-love that part.
Do you guys view the relationship between Henry and Eliza in My Fair Lady as romantic? I never did. Yes, she goes back to him, but more as a friend thing, I always thought.
Really? I always thought she knew she was in love with him but wanted him to love her on equal terms (unlike Freddie--she wanted him to love her as much as she loved him). She knew he loved her, but his refusal to admit it forced her to walk out.The whole "fetch my slippers" at the end was his admitting to her that he loved her and was glad she was back.
Sarah,I felt the same way. I always thought that she and Freddy would be a better match. The relationship between Henry and Eliza seemed more like friendship to me, also. I never really perceived any romantic sentiments between them.
Eliza even tells Henry that she's come to care for him, not as a lover, but as a friend. Traditionally, Henry is much older than Eliza. I really think she sees him more as a father figure, since Alfie was so absent from her life.
I always thought that she did have feelings for him in the musical. She pretty much says it when she sings "I Could Have Danced All Night" being in his arms definitely has a big affect on her. I like her with Higgins, even if he's older. He's going to challenge Eliza to grow and change and ultimately will bring out more of her potential as opposed to Freddy who worships her but probably, ultimately wouldn't lead her to much growth. I think Higgins is better for her in the long run.
I thought the ending was pretty frustrating, Eliza marrying someone she doesn't love just so she will be the stronger in the relationship. I haven't finished the play so I'm not sure if he explains that even further. For me this was so frustrating. I thought this play was pretty funny I literally laughed out loud at some parts. I liked how he made fun of higher social class when Eliza and Doolittle both exclaim that they are losing their independence and how becoming middle class has ruined their lives. Eliza lost work and her independence by being able to talk elegantly. I also liked how clara ( i think thats her name) picked up her language thinking it was fashionable. I think it was also a political statement that Shaw was making when a member of the working class can make it into the middle class by taking a bath and talking like the middle class.
ok, I just finished and the ending where she is thinking about Higgins and how much she wants him....I don't know. I feel like shaw is addressing how much we live our lives to societies standards. He says something to the effect of it not being business-like. We live our lives not how we fantasize it but by how it "ought to be" which seems really ridiculous when you think about it. I think that her ending up with Higgins would have been too good to be good(if that makes any sense)
Mod
I just finished it. It'd been about seven years or so since I read it last, and I'd forgotten about the long epilogue at the end. It's weird for a play to have an epilogue that the audience never sees.
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I did think the details Shaw put in about the environment in the scenes (down to knick-knacks!) and what they actors were meant to be conveying somehow without a word was fascinating... I felt like I was seeing his imagination as he was writing it - I could picture him sitting there trying to capture what was in his head. I found that rather beautiful. One example is when he says: "The constable shakes his head, reflecting on his own courtship and on the vanity of human hopes." I wrote in the margin: "So odd: how is this to be portrayed exactly?"
I was so dang annoyed at Eliza being complacent with Higgins comment: "You and I and Pickering will be three old bachelors together instead of only two men and a silly girl." So she's used to him. So what. I felt like she came that far to sell herself short and cheat herself out of so much. I mean she had just gotten through making the point that, "Every girl has a right to be loved." Ergh!
I did think in My Fair Lady that Eliza loved Higgins. But Joanie, the play does have the line: "I can do without anybody. I have my own soul: my own spark of divine fire. But I shall miss you, Eliza. I have learnt something from your idiotic notions: I confess that humbly and gratefully. I have grown accustomed to your voice and appearance. I like them, rather."
Mod
Damn! Damn! Damn! Damn!
I've grown accustomed to her face.
She almost makes the day begin.
I've grown accustomed to the tune
That she whistles night and noon.
Her smiles, her frowns,
Her ups, her downs
Are second nature to me now,
Like breathing out and breathing in.
I was serenly independent
And content before we met.
Surely I could always be that way again - and yet,
I've grown accustomed to her look,
Accustomed to her voice,
Accustomed to her face...
Just read this yesterday and rewatched My Fair Lady today for comparison. The film actually stays very faithful to the book for the most part with some embellishment and of course the altered ending. And I have to say I much preferred the ending in the book. Why would she go back to a selfish brute like Higgins, much less love him (as I always assumed she did in the film - and thought the feeling was implied to be mutual)? It must be another Byronic hero thing I suppose...:)As a performed play, I thought the ambiguous ending was best, but as a reader, I really enjoyed the epilogue. It felt more like a critical notes appendage than an epilogue and I thought it was interesting to get the additional insight into Shaw's mind.
I really liked how he told Clara's story in the epilogue actually. I thought it provided a good contrasting point to Eliza's story. With Eliza we have a girl from poverty rising to a higher class. Whereas with Clara, we have a girl accustomed to more refined culture lowering her standards.
Dini, how did gutenberg work out for you? hope it went well.
Oh and also thought this was a very appropriate book to be featured on the Gilmore Girls, especially given how Rory ends up. Any one know what episode it was featured in?
Mod
I'm thinking we're going to have to tackle him some day down the road. Just so we all know what we're really referring to! heh
I tell you these fellas are a dime a dozen - much less rare and precious than they'd have you believe.Meant to say also, I didn't know Pretty Woman and She's All That were based on My Fair Lady. Much preferred the first to the second, but in some ways I think the taboos and snobbery associated with high school clique culture are more similar to the class issues in 19thC England than perhaps those related to American prostitution are.
I also must admit I had no idea who Pygmalion was before reading this book. Interesting choice for a title.
I have been #1 on my library list for a month now and still have not got this book. I am wondering if the library has like 1 copy of this book.
I read it on Gutenberg. I think overall, I truly enjoyed it. It has been a long time since I saw My Fair Lady, and so while I did picture the actors some, I didn't hold tightly to much of the film.I overwhelmingly prefer Shaw's ending. Seems so much more likely, that the 3 became "partners in crime", that they created their own little clubhouse. Eliza marrying Freddy made sense to me; I never liked the suggestion that she gave up all her hard-won sense of self and independence just to marry Higgins and be subserviant forever (intellectually if nothing else.)
Glad we did this one, and I won't lie -- it helped that it was short!
On another note, darn if I didn't get myself roped into proofing for Project Gutenberg. I'm such a joiner. LOL
Mod
I like what you had to say about the play. I completely concur. But even at that it was a bit dissatisfying...
I did find it interesting that the play had a woman change dramatically, yet the man who was vulgar in entirely different ways never did. Maybe that is why I found it dissatisfying. Higgins didn't really deserve to have her around!
Mod
Pygmalion is my first Shaw play ever and I read it somewhere in 2007. Here's my reviewhttp://tometravelling.blogspot.in/201...
I've also decided to give a stab at reading the text on a computer and grabbed the Gutenberg edition (you can find it here) -- thanks to Heather by the way for suggesting it to me. Just don't tell my boss I'm reading this at work! LOL.
I breezed through Act I yesterday and found it quite easy to read. It's amusing to see how everybody was amazed at Higgins' ability to pinpoint exactly where someone was from just by listening to him/her speak a few words.