The Debate Club discussion
: ̗̀➛ LGBTQ+
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♡»» Are They/Them Pronouns Grammatically Correct to Use For One Person?
Also do YOU care to give any completely unbiased evidence? lol.
Tessie wrote: "✨Ruthie wrote: "Yes, I agree, I will not be forced to call someone something they are not. I do not believe that and moral truth does not permit me. As said, you may find sources that show proof ..."
Existance?? Did I ever say I think no one should exist??? I think every human life is precious, what I'm doing is disagreeing with the ideology
But can you prove that they/them is common throughout history, and always commonly accepted??
Male and female, there are only two, there will only ever be two, and we can't do anything to change that, biologically or socially.
Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.) wrote: "✨Ruthie wrote: "Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.) wrote: "✨Ruthie wrote: "It is soooo uncommon to find it in historical works. It's not like it was used all the time. Which is my point: they/..."Science does not support a simplistic statement that gender/sexual orientation is 100% “biologically set” and unaffected by environment. Current peer-reviewed evidence supports biological influences (genetic, prenatal hormones, epigenetic marks, neurodevelopmental correlates) plus non-genetic influences (non-shared environment, social context, plasticity). Many prominent reviews emphasize multifactorial causation rather than pure determinism.
Overconfidence in Causation Is Unscientific
Current science does not support “definite proof” that anyone’s orientation or gender identity is fully determined by biology. The consensus is that multiple biological and psychosocial variables interact in complex ways.
Source: Roselli et al., 2021 (review conclusion: multifactorial causation).
Some transgender participants show brain patterns resembling their experienced gender, but these findings are not consistent and cannot determine cause vs. effect. Brain differences may result from social transition or hormone exposure.
Source: Kurth et al., 2022; Flint et al., Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, 2020.
Need to go to bed, will respond more tmr! :)
Tessie wrote: "maya ۶ৎ⋆. wrote: "Tessie wrote: "@Maya“but i will not be forced to address them with pronouns that do not fit their sex assigned at birth.”
Do you believe you shouldn’t have to call people by the..."
okay wait now you're confusing me too 😭
message 107:
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Barnette ⋆˙⟡ *semi-hiatus for weekend*, Creator, Head Moderator
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Ruthie, you've given us no proof it's grammatically incorrect. And you do not have the right to tell people how to identify.
message 108:
by
Barnette ⋆˙⟡ *semi-hiatus for weekend*, Creator, Head Moderator
(new)
Mod
No one was disrespecting you. I was calm this entire time and never told you your identity or opinions were a lie, and from my perspective everyone else was the same.
"According to a three-part study of over 11,000 transgender people of all ages, the lifetime rates of suicidal ideation and self-harm are significantly higher among transgender folks than their cisgender peers. 82% of transgender individuals have considered suicide, and 40% have attempted to take their own life." - Transgender+ Communities and Mental Health https://mhanational.org/resources/tra....yo can we talk about this 😭
Barnette ⋆˙⟡ wrote: "Ruthie, seeing as you responded to few of my questions and gave NO sources or elaborated on what you were asked to, I'm done with this debate. I hope to see you on other topics.No one was disresp..."
thank you, barnette !!
maya ۶ৎ⋆. wrote: ""According to a three-part study of over 11,000 transgender people of all ages, the lifetime rates of suicidal ideation and self-harm are significantly higher among transgender folks than their cis..."Oh and trans folk are 50% more likely to commit suicide if they're in an unaccepting household (The Trevor Project, 2024)
✨Ruthie wrote: "Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.) wrote: "✨Ruthie wrote: "Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.) wrote: "✨Ruthie wrote: "It is soooo uncommon to find it in historical works. It's not like it..."I'll reply later, but I'm lowk cramming for four tests rn, but I WILL reply later, gng.
✨Ruthie wrote: "It is soooo uncommon to find it in historical works. It's not like it was used all the time. Which is my point: they/them is not a way to identify yourself, because it's not grammatically correct, ..."couple questions about this
1. what are intersex people to you? hermaphrodites? people with X, XXY or XYY chromosomes? people with the genitalia of one sex but chromosomes of the other? your dedication to believing in a strict two circles is admirable, but incorrect as proven by science.
2. what are you basing you assumption that it was not used very much in old texts? do you have definitive proof or is this a 'guess' that supports your personal beliefs? do you understand that english is not the only spoken language in the world and other languages also have written works?
3. what part of 'grammatically correct' in this question are you not understanding? this is to discuss the grammar, not your personal opinions or beliefs, when in fact it was not even specified if we were referring to a queer community, or just any random folk perhaps with an unspecified gender
of course that last part isn't solely you, but everyone needs to realize this topic is in not asking you what you think, there's probably another place in this group and if there isn't, ask for one, but this is not the place and no one cares or will care unless you present your arguments in a thoughtful manner in the right place
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this argument doesn't hold up. things change. a century ago racial lynching was common, does that make it right? no. i mean obviously this is very different from violent crimes, but the same principle still applies: things do change. just because it wasn't used twenty years ago (i'm not going to argue whether or not this is true bc i know nothing about it) doesn't mean it shouldn't be used today. change or deviation from the past is so often framed as wrong, when it's really not.
No! I never use they/them to refer to one person…because its NOT RIGHT! Why refer to someone with plural pronouns…
they them is gender neutral/ has been used for years when you don’t know when someone is a boy or girl, and has now extended to if someone doesn’t identify as those or doesn’t feel comfortable with the normal he/him/she/her
Sarah (RIP Charlie Kirk!!) wrote: "No! I never use they/them to refer to one person…because its NOT RIGHT! Why refer to someone with plural pronouns…"Because that’s what they identify with :)
Nidhi ;) wrote: "Sarah (RIP Charlie Kirk!!) wrote: "No! I never use they/them to refer to one person…because its NOT RIGHT! Why refer to someone with plural pronouns…"Because that’s what they identify with :)"
Just because someone identifies as something doesn't mean they ARE that thing. I could identify as a tree, does that mean i am one? NO!! We should all educate people and show them that they cannot change their gender! If you are born male, you are a man, if you are born female you are a woman!
Sarah (RIP Charlie Kirk!!) wrote: "Nidhi ;) wrote: "Sarah (RIP Charlie Kirk!!) wrote: "No! I never use they/them to refer to one person…because its NOT RIGHT! Why refer to someone with plural pronouns…"Because that’s what they ide..."
I fell like that’s not the best example..?
And they aren’t “changing” their gender they’re just accepting their identity, also, what about the people who are born as intersex?
I think that it is grammatically correct, because say you see this silhouette of a figure standing. You can't tell what gender or sex they are based on what you see and if you had to tell someone next to you what that person is doing you would say "they're standing on this hill looking at _" etc. So like grammatically 'they/them' is correct because its neutral. and its been neutral forever. like thats just english grammar.
if you’re born intersex why can’t you use they/them? science literally says you’re not a boy or a girl, if you say you’re a boy than wouldn’t you also be changing your gender , since that’s not what you’re born as?
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Sydney wrote: "Like Sarah said, a person can choose to identify as anything they want to but that doesn’t make them that thing. A person can identify as a dog, does that make them a dog? No it doesn’t. You can id..."Yes!
Sydney wrote: "Like Sarah said, a person can choose to identify as anything they want to but that doesn’t make them that thing. A person can identify as a dog, does that make them a dog? No it doesn’t. You can id..."boy/girl are sexes! you can identify as a different gender and be that gender
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quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "they them is gender neutral/ has been used for years when you don’t know when someone is a boy or girl, and has now extended to if someone doesn’t identify as those or doesn’t feel comfortable with..."Exactly
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yes those are gender norms. why is it that when people step out of those stereotypes it is wrong? i see your point. in others eyes, gender is infinite and you cant really classify it, much like you are saying. thats why there are different genders people can fit themselves into! gender IS in the mind. to some extent. like i feel like your arguments could go either way for either side of this debate
Sydney wrote: "Like Sarah said, a person can choose to identify as anything they want to but that doesn’t make them that thing. A person can identify as a dog, does that make them a dog? No it doesn’t. You can id..."well the thing about your scenario is that a dog is an entirely different species to human. Gender is a social constraint/norm inside of the human society.
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minnie {s.ia} wrote: "Sydney wrote: "Like Sarah said, a person can choose to identify as anything they want to but that doesn’t make them that thing. A person can identify as a dog, does that make them a dog? No it does..."^ This!! There is a difference between genitalia and gender; the two do NOT always go hand in hand. And anyways, we're not debating whether or not being transgender or intersex is right/true, we're talking about if using They/Them pronouns could be grammatically correct for one person, which it most definitely can be. If I saw someone doing something or saying something and I didn't know how they identified, I would say "They said/did that." Right? So if a person prefers using said pronouns, then there isn't a problem with it. That's the debate, not what your personal views of being transgender and the like are. Invalidating people's gender identities is not right.
@sydney identifying as a different race is RCTA (race change to another) and is cultural appropriation and not valid at all. and age is completely different from gender and has nothing to do with your personality and your being because age changes literally every year
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Sydney wrote: "@nimbus again I said that they/them pronouns are correct for one person if we don’t know their sex but once you do you don’t use they/them anymore."Why not? Is there a specific rule written in the English language that says so?
gender is a social construct and is dependent on feeling and how you perceive yourself. race and ethnicity are literally in your blood. this is such a horrible and harmful comparison imo.
quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "gender is a social construct and is dependent on feeling and how you perceive yourself. race and ethnicity are literally in your blood. this is such a horrible and harmful comparison imo."Exactly. The two aren't even remotely similar.
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quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "gender is a social construct and is dependent on feeling and how you perceive yourself. race and ethnicity are literally in your blood. this is such a horrible and harmful comparison imo."this ^
Sydney wrote: "Yes they them pronouns are correct if you don’t know the sex of a person. But once you know the sex, they/them is no longer grammatically correct. And you can identify as they/them and if you think..."so...you're agree ing with us and saying that they/them is grammatically right. (sorry if i interpreted that wrong)
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Sydney wrote: "Yes they them pronouns are correct if you don’t know the sex of a person. But once you know the sex, they/them is no longer grammatically correct. And you can identify as they/them and if you think..."What says this is true?? Is there written text that specifically states using They/Them pronouns for a person is incorrect if that's how they choose to identify? And besides, what's your excuse for intersex people?
I genuinely don’t care if you believe in gender, if someone goes by they/them and you knowingly choose to ignore that then you are just a bitch. I don’t believe in god but would I go around refusing to respect that someone else does? No.
also kind of off topic but rcta and rcta comparisons to gender make me burn with rage. you CANNOT be another race than what you actually are. you choose to be that based on STEREOTYPES and racist ideologies. you cannot be a korean girl named jennie when you’re a white girl named sarah. you will never be a korean girl because your literal blood is european. they only want to be another race bc, for example, they think korea is. some fantasy land and fetishize it. it’s completely different from identifying as a different gender.
Sydney wrote: "I don’t see how that is a harmful comparison. If gender is just what someone identifies as then why can’t someone identify with a different ethnicity? I wasn’t trying to be offensive. Why can’t som..."because ethnicity is based on where you were born and your heritage. the thing about gender is that gender is based on feeling and how you identify with your self. ethnicity is also part of your identity but it is in your blood. and before you say something about sex and biology, gender is a construct, and it is based on feeling, and it can change based on the person's perspective of themselves. you cannot change your ethnicity anymore than you can change who you were born to. on the topic of age, well age is a measurement of time and time is kinda strange so im not gonna go into that
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age is literally a measure of time what 😭???? you can’t change time can you???
quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "also kind of off topic but rcta and rcta comparisons to gender make me burn with rage. you CANNOT be another race than what you actually are. you choose to be that based on STEREOTYPES and racist i..."this ^
how on earth do you ‘feel’ chinese? that’s based on harmful stereotypes of chinese culture then.
I think I already sent this but wtv:
Nature, Not Narrative: What Research Reveals About LGBTQ+ Identities
A Paper Written By: Pierce Samuel
There is a common misconception that is used time and time again against members of the LGBTQ+ community. This is the myth that they choose to be LGBTQ+. This is a false narrative disproven by science time and time again. When society is able to push past this faux, it is able to focus more energy on more pressing issues within the community, and not the debate on whether or not someone chooses to be sexually and gender diverse.
Gender is not something you choose, and is biologically set. “As children mature, this innate imprinting expresses as genital anatomy, gender identity, sexual orientation and other physiologic capabilities and natural preferences along a continuum, between masculine and feminine. Thus, the concepts of binary heterosexual or homosexual, male or female, represent the furthest ends of the spectrum, with the vast majority of humans clustered near the heterosexual and gender-congruent ends of the spectrum, and a small percent falling in between, along the many mid-points of the spectrum” [f1]. The majority of people find themselves to be on opposite sides of the spectrum, leading to two extremes which society has put boxes around. Though, this social construct has harmed others in the process, as people who don’t fit into those extreme categories often feel isolated and othered from their peers [f2]. This rigid ideology is wrong; in addition this is supported with the quote “Sexual differentiation of the brain begins in the second trimester and likely completes postnatally. Because brain differentiation occurs months after differentiation of genitals, the differentiation of the body in one direction does not necessarily reflect the direction of the differentiation of the brain” [f1]. This supports the claim that the brain difference occurs after sex difference, leading to the conclusion that they are separate concepts. This research also explains why people have gender identities that do not align with their sex, as they are formed at different times in pregnancy. “Heterosexual, homosexual and transsexual individuals report that they are certain they were “born that way”, and prefer their status” [f1]. People have often heard this saying, but there is definite proof that it is true. Some people against the LGBTQ+ community might argue that being raised in an environment supporting a life like LGBTQ+ would influence them, but this claim is disproven. “There is no proof that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation” [f1].
Transgender individuals are often proven to have a brain that aligns more with their gender, and not their sex. “hypothalamic responses of both adolescent girls and boys diagnosed with GD were more similar to their experienced gender than their birth sex, which supports the hypothesis of a sex-atypical brain differentiation in these individuals.” [f3]. This is neurological proof that gender is not just a feeling, but a brain pattern recognized by science. That is not where the brain similarities stop. Some research is even shown that transgender men have similar arousal patterns as cisgender men, differing from cisgender women. [f4] “Transgender men's sexual arousal showed both male-typical and female-typical patterns. Across measures, they responded more strongly to their preferred gender than to the other gender, similar to (but not entirely like) 145 cisgender (nontransgender) men.” [f4]. This reinforces the idea that transgender people have brains more alike to their gender, not their sex.
But, transgender people aren't the only LGBTQ+ identity that has science on their side. Sexual Orientation is defined by Stanford Medical Education as: “Sexual orientation is how a person describes the gender or genders of people they are attracted to sexually or romantically.” [f5]. These identities include but are not limited to: gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, and aromantic. These identities are not something you choose to be, and are innate in someone [f6]. Twin studies have also shown that twins will more likely have the same sexual orientation, backing up the claim that sexuality is biological, and not a choice [f7].
In pregnancy, a fetus being exposed to certain hormones can also affect the person’s gender and sexual orientation [f8 and f9]. “We will then highlight findings that suggest a link between sexual orientation and epigenetic mechanisms. In particular, we will consider the case of women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). These women were exposed to high levels of testosterone in utero and have much higher rates of nonheterosexual orientation compared to non-CAH women.” [f8]. This is definite proof that if a fetus is exposed to certain hormones it can play a part in the person’s sexuality. “high levels of prenatal T in natal females and low levels in natal males play a part in the etiology of GD [Gender Dysphoria].” [f9]. This supports the fact that transgender folk don’t choose to be transgender, and it can be a result of an exposure to hormones in the womb.
In the end, sexually and gender is not a choice; furthermore, it is something innate in oneself. The research on this subject is just beginning, but it sees no end any time soon. Understanding these identities is the first step in progressing as a society, and creating a more open and safe place for anyone. If you or someone you know is struggling with their mental health regarding their sexual and/or gender identity, please refer to The Crisis Lifeline (988) or The Trevor Project.
References:
F1: “In Biological origins of sexual orientation and gender identity: Impact on health” by Katherine A. O'Hanlan, Jennifer C. Gordon, and Mackenzie W. Sullivan.
F2: Loneliness and Social Isolation among Transgender and Gender Diverse People André Hajek, Hans-Helmut König, Marco Blessmann, and Katharina Grupp.
F3: “Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age” by The European Society of Endocrinology.
F4: “Patterns of Genital Sexual Arousal in Transgender Men” by Jamie Raines
F5: “Definition of Sexual Orientation” by Stanford Medical Education
F6: “Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men” by Ivanka Savic, Hans Berglund, and Per Lindström
F7: “Homosexual orientation in twins: a report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets” by F L Whitam, and M Diamond, J Martin
F8: “The biological basis of human sexual orientation: is there a role for epigenetics?” Tuck C Ngun and Eric Vilain
F9: “2D:4D Suggests a Role of Prenatal Testosterone in Gender Dysphoria” by Mostafa Sadr, Behzad S Khorashad, Ali Talaei, Nasrin Fazeli, and Johannes Hönekopp