"Iron Widow" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

A few questions to get us started:


1. What did you think of the world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

[Opal]

1) I loved the world! I'm not too familiar with mecha systems outside of what's oozed out of the mainstream anime stuff (Neon Genesis, Transformers, etc.), but it was really cool to see a qi-inspired version of it.
2) This was my first time really getting a protagonist that works like a villain. It was pretty fun and refreshing. Each of the characters had interesting motivations and complexities that I enjoyed getting to know.
3) Seeing as this reignited my ability to read a book within a weekend, this worked for me. Idk about what didn't work. Everything I had mixed feelings about were also things I expect to be expanded on in the future (as in, it seems like some foundation has been set up for it) so I'm not going to pick anything out in particular at the moment. But I do remember being really pissed about the cliffhanger haha.
4) I love this book! I used to follow Xiran Jay Zhao's youtube videos about Chinese history before I started reading it, and it's such a blessing to enjoy both.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

In regards to her being a villain, I was cracking up when she said something along the lines of Li Shimin being scary because he was “literally a murderer.”

Like girl, so are you! lol, what are you talking about.

I’m here for it either way.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

"We listen and we don't judge."

XD

[CJ]

I just read a Sarah's review of this that questioned this being categorized as YA, and I just want to point folks to Zhao's You Tube channel where they have a recent short up ("Why the YA genre houses books that don't necessarily belong there") about how they originally didn't want Iron Widow to be YA but there were industry reasons why they ended up making it so. Zhao goes into some of the pressures and limits writers like themself face in this industry and acknowledges regretting the edits they had to make to the novel for it to be accepted as YA, even saying they personally will not market this series as YA going forward.

I feel people have such widely varying ideas of what YA ought to be and what it should and shouldn't include, and tend to blame the authors unfairly if their books don't fit a reader's particular expectations (even going so far as to make unkind accusations, as Zhao has experienced). It's worth remembering that YA is a marketing category aimed at perceived audience, and how the industry decided that age group was 12-18 was a marketing decision and not necessarily the audience any of these authors are seeking. That's not even getting to the failed attempt to start a "New Adult" category for 18+ readers that didn't take off largely because bookstores just shelved those books as YA anyways, as Zhao and others point out, and how readers now are referring to "lower YA" and "upper YA" so to better distinguish books that are clearly more appropriate for younger or older audiences respectively because it's the industry who's lumping all these books into one category.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

CJ wrote: "I just read a Sarah's review of this that questioned this being categorized as YA, and I just want to point folks to Zhao's You Tube channel where they have a recent short up ("Why the YA genre hou..."

I’m not sure if my review is the one you’re referring to? (There are a few Sarah’s around lol.)

I just want to clarify: I actually thought the book was both intended to be and marketed as adult (so I guess what Zhao is saying tracks with what I picked up on). It wasn’t until reading your comment that I realized it had been marketed as YA at all. I don’t think a book being YA makes it inherently bad and it wasn’t meant as a put down.

I’m not sure what Zhao had to edit to fit the book into that market, but it’s unfortunate they didn’t get to publish the book they were truly excited and passionate about. I’ll check out the short!

ETA: I watched the short. It’s horrible they are dealing with harassment regarding “smut” content. Maybe I’m not remembering correctly but weren’t all the romantic scenes fade to black? If I am reading between the lines correctly I would guess that Zhao’s book is being targeted due to homophobic bigotry rather than the actual content. I’d imagine there are far spicier books being shelved as YA than this one.

For me the confusion wasn’t remotely romantic in nature it pertained strictly only to the violence and the treatment of women and women’s bodies.

[Ellen]

I really enjoyed this book. I had to stop reading this book right before bed. My mind combined this book and US current events into some pretty horrific dreams.
Since I first learned of it when reading The Good Earth I am appalled at the practice of foot binding. Condemning female to pain and being essentially a cripple so she had pretty(?) feet. This went on until the 1950's though women continue to be bound in other ways.
I didn't realize this book was classified as YA until I saw it mentioned in the "non spoiler" discussion. I think they need a better classification system. I watched Zhao's film short . I hate what they have had to deal with. I agree that the book probably targeted due to homophobic bigotry rather than content.
I loved the ending . I did not see it coming though I kept wondering about the Hunduns and their origins. Planning to put my name on the library waiting list for book 2.

[Michael O]

Lot's of good and bad in this one.

I don't feel this was a stylistic masterpiece. The prose gets there competently but doesn't leave me admiring the beauty of the trip.

Zetian has been accused of being a Mary Sue and I can see the case for that charge but can't decide if I agree. (apologies for the weaseling). I had trouble believing this barely literate farm girl who only gets occasional chances to see a tablet or a few monthly visits from her friend Yizhi will use media to gain power.

[Beth]

Cool book! Down to a lot of "rule of cool." I didn't mind that at all. The mecha battles were gripping and easy to picture in my mind.

I could have stood for the scale of the larger setting to be a little clearer. I couldn't tell what distances we were dealing with, or where the Hunduns' volcano, the Great Wall, Chang'an, the sea, et al., were in relation to each other. Is Chang'an the capital of a landmass the size of China? of a US state? of a British or US county?

On the smaller scale, the descriptions were nicely done, very immersive. I liked the descriptions of the characters' inner worlds and the yin-yang realm.

After the rage-fueled first third or so of the book, things slowed down quite a bit. I appreciate that we had a triad rather than a love triangle. The romance wasn't quite given enough attention to be 100% convincing, especially Yizhi's and Li Shimin's portion of it.

The ending was too rushed, though I like how it opened more questions than it answered. I predicted both that the Hunduns were sentient, and that the "gods" weren't really gods, but I hadn't guessed that the humans were colonizing an already occupied planet.

Wresting power from the powerful isn't a compassionate act here, and with our new empress being 17 years old... well, we'll see.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I love this book! I plan to continue with the series.

I really could care less about the YA or not YA designation, which I think is a farcical or nonsensical category created by some rigid-minded or conservative adults hoping to control/appease the buyer market. Readers either like the style or not, full stop, whatever the reading level of expertise, too. The ending was rushed, but the book in its entirety was having more detailed descriptions, I think, being sacrificed in order to have a fast paced and exciting drama.

The rage suited me just fine, as I am an older woman who was raised in the American patriarchy before the 21st century, who wanted more than living under the control of my dad or husband, only expected to make babies and clean houses, and was forbidden most college majors except nursing or teaching, unless one was born a female with a powerful legacy college graduate male backing them, or a wealthy father or husband, signing all of the loan and entry paperwork since banks and schools did not permit women much legal or financial freedom to sign anything contractual. Or believe females could do math or science, or be boss of anything except toddlers.

I think the attacks on the novel are not only because of lgbtqia bigotry, but also because of the backlash against women having the same rights and being able to fullfill personal expectations for themselves, whatever they may be. After all, isn’t it precisely the American elementary and secondary classes teaching about history, politics, religion, women’s rights, lgbtqia and race mistreatment and bigotry that are being targeted and banned by religious and MAGA supporters, history and social studies textbooks being censored in American midwestern and southern states? Btw, I highly suggest reading 1984

Probably TMI, but at age thirteen (in the 1960’s), no one gave a flying puck what I did or did not read, since I was only a girl who, in the words of my male school counselor when I asked about what classes I needed for college, “Why worry about that? You are going to get married and have children.” He was particularly reluctant to allow me into advanced math classes which I did end up getting into, or the second year of Spanish (“What a waste of your time.”) As long as I took Home Economics classes (cooking and sewing) no one really cared what I read or learned except teachers at school who were required to force the so-called classics on us (at least the ones ‘suitable for children’). I was able to pick up adult paperbacks at my local Salvation Army store. They had a box full of used paperbacks, some with lurid covers, with violent detective stories, but also adult science fiction novels or adult fiction classics. I easily purchased them with my allowance of three dollars a week, because the paperbacks cost 5 or 10 cents each. I also occasionally bought paperbacks at the corner pharmacy, some of which were pornographic, sold by the man behind the counter to this junior high kid. In my junior high (middle school to you youngsters of today), some of us girls, the nerds alright, had a secret book club of pornographic paperbacks we passed to each other, from locker to purse, all of us 13/14/15 years of age. We were the type of kids being held back by social mores, especially those that wanted American girls to only be good housewives, dependent on men for everything financial and education, in knowing how to fix plumbing, electronics or machines. FYI, I see this attitude of putting women back into the kitchens and bedrooms, dependent on a man to actually survive because of limited reading, education and anything beyond 8th-grade textbooks, coming back to American schools again.

[Alicia]

I DNFd at 84%. I liked the concept of the world but I wasn’t a big fan of the characters. She is definitely a Mary Sue and not everything lined up in my head. Three way romances are not for me.

[Ellen]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I love this book! I plan to continue with the series.

I really could care less about the YA or not YA designation, which I think is a farcical or nonsensical category created by some rigid-minded..."

Well said!