Mentats of Dune (Schools of Dune #2)[April 10, 2025]

[Yanique, Thread Master]

This is a Buddy Read for Mentats of Dune by Brian Herbert starting on April 10, 2025.


Happy Reading!

[Nirkatze]

Thank you!

Frank Herbert's Original Dune Chronicles:
1. Dune (Jan 10) [link]
2. Dune Messiah (Feb 10) [link]
3. Children of Dune (Mar 10) [link]
4. God Emperor of Dune (Apr 10) [link]
5. Heretics of Dune (May 10) [link]
6. Chapterhouse: Dune (Jun 10) [link]

Prelude to Dune Trilogy
Published 1999-2001
Chronicles the events that lead up to the first book.
1. House Atreides (Aug 10) [link]
2. House Harkonnen (Sept 10) [link]
3. House Corrino (Oct 10) [link]

Audio: Some Hoopla might have them, not on A+
Ebook: Some Hoopla might have them, some on Open Library, not on KU

The Legends Trilogy
Published 2002-2004
Takes place millennia before Dune--documenting the war that caused the suspicion of machines in the first place.
1. The Butlerian Jihad (Nov 10) [link]
2. The Machine Crusade (Dec 10) [link]
3. The Battle of Corrin (Jan 10) [link]

--Skipping February--

Schools of Dune
Published 2012-2016
Picks up close after the Battle of Corrin, continuing with the history of the Dune universe. Also said to be the basis of the upcoming HBO series...
1. Sisterhood of Dune (Mar 10) [link]
2. Mentats of Dune (Apr 10)
3. Navigators of Dune (May 10) [link]

======Following BRs have yet to be requested:======

The Caladan Trilogy
Published 2020-2022
Takes place after House Corrino but before Dune.
1. Dune: The Duke of Caladan (TBD) [linkTBD]
2. Dune: The Lady of Caladan
3. Dune: The Heir of Caladan

Heroes of Dune Trilogy
Published 2008-2023
Fills in gaps between the original Dune books
0. Princess of Dune (2023) (follows the lives of Irulian and Chani before Dune)
1. Paul of Dune (2008) (picks up right after the end of Dune)
2. The Winds of Dune (2009) (picks up right after Dune Messiah)

Dune Sequels
Published 2006-7
Picks up after the end of Chapterhouse: Dune and FINALLY continues the story--based on "Dune 7" manuscript, and incorporating details from the Butlerian Jihad onwards... GR calls them Dune #7 & #8
1. Hunters of Dune
2. Sandworms of Dune

[Nirkatze]

A little past a third of the way in (maybe 9 hours?) and enjoying. Really glad Choko's going through the earlier books and leaving comments--it's a great refresher. Like the title, we're getting a lot of the Mentat school so far, but also the other two as well. (view spoiler)[Sisterhood back on the map, but trying to hide from the Emperor. Or split, between Dorotea and Ra... Raquela?

Harkonnen sisters on a vengeance mission to destroy Atreides family on Caladan... even as Vor Atreides is on the Harkonnen world trying to atone for the damage he caused their family. Dammit!!

Not much on the Navigators so far--though Norma's slowly making progress. I feel like we haven't seen much of the Suk doctors either, and they don't get their own book.

Mentat founder having trouble hiding his father/mentor machine--and machine dude (Xerxes? that doesn't sound right) messing with Anna Corrino. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

About 2/3rds in (14ish hours) and thinking about these books as comparison to the original Frank books... one of his biggest impetuses in writing Dune was to explore the dangers of fanaticism... the Jihad was a monster to be tamed, directed, and controlled if it couldn't be prevented... and these books are really exploring that as well, if not as deftly or philosophically.

The Butlerian Jihad started needfully, acting out against slavery and abuses of robot overlords... but it tipped over long since, into fanaticism--how far does it go? There was a quote in the last book, I think when the Emperor invaded the Sisterhood, that human computers were just as bad as computing machines, and ordered those Sisters killed.

[RachelG.]

That fanaticism has really stuck with me as well. I haven't started this one yet but I can't stand Manford.

[Nirkatze]

Ugh, Manford!

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

That's one reason I think it'll be interesting if we adjust our BR plans and re-read Frank's books, after all the prequels, before continuing to the sequels... revisit that philosophy...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Started my readthrough as well... was going to do it last weekend, but read other things instead... seeing comments in this thread just made it easier to push myself to get to this next :)

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "A little past a third of the way in (maybe 9 hours?) and enjoying. Really glad Choko's going through the earlier books and leaving comments--it's a great refresher. Like the title, we're getting a ..."

Nearing here... so much is happening, that I feel like most of it is either going to be undone by the end of the trilogy, or is just going to blend in with the rest of the Empire, so as to be unnoticable... (view spoiler)[spacefaring Fremen (blended or return to Arrakis), new Cymeks (destroyed, I'm sure, possibly in a double-sided extermination with Manford)... etc (hide spoiler)]

Also, this storyline is really making Artificial Intelligence / Robotics and Fanaticism feel like 2 extremes that need to be squashed out to create a sustainable Empire for 10k years... since mob mentality is generally Group Stupidity that squashes out higher thinking in favor of wanton destruction...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Speaking to your spoiler from 33%: (view spoiler)[Erashmus be Erasmussing, thinking about dissection and evil robot things... can't seem to help himself, really... almost feel like he's trying to replace Gilbert with a more pliant human protege... (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

It's so easy to miss the pettier cruelties, in the wake of the larger evils afoot in this series... (view spoiler)[I missed/glossed over alot of El Salvador's proto-Harkonnen tendencies, until the dream sequence with the Sappho, where Anna replayed her childhood, and shortly after his fun at watching torture was mentioned in the present...

I know this is technically a Corrino, but all the families intermarry over 10k years many times over, I'm sure... and all brutality is inherently Harkonnen in my head at this point, regardless of how unfair that may be... (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

I'm probably also forgetting some things from Sisterhood of Dune

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "That's one reason I think it'll be interesting if we adjust our BR plans and re-read Frank's books, after all the prequels, before continuing to the sequels... revisit that philosophy..."

I'll probably be okay with that. ^_^

Finished yesterday. I keep thinking it's so interesting having watched the Dune: Prophecy series! Now that we're further in this storyline, it seems the TV series is actually a lot more faithful to the story than I'd've thought--it just starts at almost the end of it, and all of this is in flashbacks... (a few TV spoilers here--I just mention some scenes that are in both) (view spoiler)[the Atreides wedding/betrayal, Valya using the voice and taking out Dorotea, those are both big scenes in flashbacks in the series. The series starts when Valya has been Mother Superior for decades... I'm not even sure if we'll see the "now" plotline in the books at all--the body of the story might take place after the end of the trilogy. Which is a rather cool way to do it, actually--take the history for a base, but then it's how many thousands of years until the next one? So that's a lot to play with.

And Jaccivo--Roderick's son--is Emperor in the TV series... so who knows if we'll get that far in the next one?

It was really interesting seeing the Mentat school--though I'm sad to see Gilbert gone, especially now that he was kind of acting as Erasmus's conscience (got the name right this time!). Man, some of the stuff Erasmus did with Anna was really cringe... I'm not sure whether to hope that Erasmus develops his own conscience, or that his arrogance brings on his own downfall... maybe both? How about his conscience causes him to sacrifice himself to save Anna--and then he is destroyed. Or he fails to do so--and then is destroyed. As long as he ends up destroyed.

And yeah--that drug-induced dream sequence where Anna learns what really happened with her stepmother!!! I hated how she was saying "help" and the only one to help her was Erasmus!! Gah! Gilbert should have kept a closer eye on that.

We didn't get much time with Norma this round. Next book should fix that.

And even though I knew a lot of the plot points for the Sisterhood from the TV show--there were still a lot of things that weren't included! The way Dorotea was thinking about healing the rift and working together, that she finally understood now--and then Valya kills her. That's like, the whole Harkonnen story there. They keep killing right after it's not necessary anymore!! And it makes it tragic, 'cuz before that moment, I'd've been right with Valya, that the Butlerian Sisters needed to go. Or that the Atreides needed to pay (in the first book, anyway). But it doesn't stop for her. Argh!! (Not a grr, she gets an arrgh).

Atreides empathy, Harkonnen brutality? Could be--or maybe just... that the Harkonnen answer to problems seems to be violence and power, most of the time. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

From spoilers, I know (view spoiler)[surviving remnants of Erasmus & (I've forgotten the AI's name already, Ozmium?) play a role in the sequels... so whatever happens to them / happened to them, they live on somewhere/somehow... altho Erasmus could have been a different copy of his conscience, since I think a few were made near the end of Battle for Corrin trilogy... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

O.o Will have to keep an eye out for that.

[RachelG.]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Nirkatze wrote: "A little past a third of the way in (maybe 9 hours?) and enjoying. Really glad Choko's going through the earlier books and leaving comments--it's a great refresher. Like the title,..."

I agree that it seems the two extreme sides are going to have to wipe each other out in order to get the world back to a more stable middle ground.

[RachelG.]

I'm about 10% in but I do find the two different schools approaches interesting. What they are teaching and how is fun to compare.

[Nirkatze]

That's a good point--especially seeing the overlap too, sisters who have attended both...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "O.o Will have to keep an eye out for that."

I honestly think that spoiler is one of the biggest things that annoy Frank Herbert purists... since I think they're supposed to be (view spoiler)[those 2 weird hooded figures that start showing up in Franks last 2 books, in the Brian & Kevin sequel conclusions... (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "That's a good point--especially seeing the overlap too, sisters who have attended both..."

Yep, totally agree...

Also, it feels like everybody is breaking the robot rule somehow, someway, somewhere... I wonder how/why that stops for 10k years... (for the most part)... since it doesn't get out of hand again?...

[Nirkatze]

Hah, so true. Kind of weird to think this next book is the last for 10k years... I hope that's explained.

[RachelG.]

25%- (view spoiler)[ Salvador is all emotions rather than brain and he seems upset and surprised that Manford has more supporters than him. (hide spoiler)]

The writing style really makes me imagine what is going on in these stories much more than other books I've read. It's easy to imagine how the mobs evolve and destroy.

[Nirkatze]

I can definitely feel what some fans say about how their writing style improves as they go on--we skipped ahead 8 years and 5 books going from the Butlerian Jihad to the schools chronologically.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Yea... Kevin J Anderson is/was an established author pre-Dune... Brian's only really done the Dune stuff as a co-writer...

Anderson did a bunch of Star Wars stuff and a few of his own original series...

[Choko]

Caught up! Started! Yay! And Rachel is here with us too!:)))

[Choko]

Iain, hahaha! Erasmus be Erasmusing! That's what I thought when he started messaging with Anna. And about Corrino, they are descendants of Butler on the female side and Harkonnen on the male side. The first one just decided to take the Corrino name after the battle of Corrin. So no wonder Salvador is acting Harkonnenish...

[Choko]

Also interesting, Raquela is the one who came up with The Voice? Hmm ..

[Choko]

About halfway through... I am so totally hooked on the story! Everything seems to be building up to a lot of screwed up stuff and a lot of people being lost, I am sure! I also think that the authors have us lulled as far as Erasmus goes, making us think that be has mellowed, and I bet he is going to end up doing something horrible again...

(view spoiler)[ It was so sad about Salvador's brother's little girl! I would have killed Mandord in a fit of grief and rage with my two hands!!!

I am upset that the younger Harkonnen sister is most likely going to kill Vor's family... They need to stop it! This vindictiveness is pointless and hurts both sides needlessly... Just stop it! (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Forgot to mention, Valya brought The Voice and now is bringing fighting and learning swordsmanship... I guess she has the making of an assassin...

[Nirkatze]

Choko wrote: "Also interesting, Raquela is the one who came up with The Voice? Hmm .."

Was it Raquela? I thought it was Valya... but I could have missed that Easy.

[Choko]

It is Valya... I guess she is bad for the Atreides but good for the sisterhood...

[Choko]

About 60% in... Anari Idaho, the sword woman of Manford's, she is insane too! (view spoiler)[ Her slaughtering humans on that planet where Vanport was trying to deliver medical supplies, was so beyond anything needed to make a point! And now they captured one of the navigators with the ship .. I don't know where this is going, but it's nowhere good...

And Erasmus made himself known to Anna now... I am guessing she will become a victim of the Butlerians soon... I wonder if that puts Gilberto in danger even more...

Speaking of Gilberto, I had more expectations of him after the previous trilogy. He was not only life extended, but was a physical specimen, doing all this crazy physical stuff while doing mental exercises, and is a mentat, and still he feels so scared and without a backbone in this book ... I just expected more from him... (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Tyla! WTF!? Why is it so easy for people to just kill others for barely having a family connection to someone they don't like? It's very upsetting!

[RachelG.]

Agree with you Choko on your 60% spoiler. It seems like we are really heading for a big explosion soon with all these warring groups and people.

[Choko]

The worst part about reading these dark, dystopian books about dictatorships, either of the loud crowds or by a tyrannical dictator, is how much it feels like we might be heading there in real life... Universities and schools can't teach certain things, you have to show that you are loyal, you can't have a descending opinion, the majority are living day to day, paycheck to paycheck, while those on top spend the regular person's yearly earnings on a day at the golf course... And you had better pray you stay healthy, or you and possibly your family are broke...

[RachelG.]

Yes, I am really seeing the parallels to real life which is one reason I don't often read books like this and I tend to take longer to read them. They make you think.

[Choko]

Exactly!

66% in... (view spoiler)[ OMG! Tula got herself engaged to one of the Atreides so she could start killing them from the inside!!!! I am terrified for that whole side of the family!!! (hide spoiler)]

[RachelG.]

Timelord Iain wrote: "That's one reason I think it'll be interesting if we adjust our BR plans and re-read Frank's books, after all the prequels, before continuing to the sequels... revisit that philosophy..."

I haven't actually read the originals and would be interested in joining if you guys do so.

[Choko]

Yay! Let's do it!

[Nirkatze]

Some of those shocker moments were spoiled for me by the HBO show--but they were definitely shocking at the time. I also like how @Choko describes Valya as "good for the Sisterhood but not good for the Atreides"--you know that an author has done good when you like both sides of a conflict and grrrrrrrr! Bang their heads together and make them play nice please, someone!!

Dammit, I guess that's Paul.

And there were definitely moments where I had to check date stamp on the books... reminds me of authors writing about autocracies and dystopias saying "Hey, um. Yo, world? This was supposed to be a warning. Not a how-to book."

[RachelG.]

I agree with your insights Nirkatze.

[Choko]

Same here!

I finished! These books can definitely take a toll on you! I want revenge! I really, really hope Manford and his people get their comeuppance! I need it, for my mental health!

(view spoiler)[ I was glad Salvador got his, and as much as I disapprove of grand corporations, Norma and her brood are some I can root for, particularly since they are the only ones who are standing up to the Butlerians. I like Vorian, but he is checked out of the current politics and is only concerned with his family. I don't really blame him, because Tula and Valya are set and locked on destroying everyone carrying his DNA, no matter how far removed... I like the storyline and I appreciate them as characters, but I hate what has happened to those two clans, which started honorably and have developed into this mindset of revenge at all cost...

I like the new symecks, and now that Anna and Erasmus are going to be with them, I anticipate a lot of experiments and shenanigans...

It was sad to see Gilberto die... And Erasmus is grieving and pissed and I don't blame him. I am a bit unhappy with Gilberto himself, because whenever you are dealing with dishonorable people, you shouldn't feel like you have to be honorable yourself! He should have accepted his student's offer of escape and all else be damned! But, at least that crazy kid did end up being a very decent human in his long life... (hide spoiler)]

This was a marathon for me, to catch up with you guys, and it feels weird that I will have to wait a month for the finale of the trilogy now:) I am looking forward to it!

[RachelG.]

I haven't opened your spoiler yet Choko but at 71% I am so ready for the Butlerians to dissolve with a dead Manford and Anari. I feel so bad for Roderick who I feel has more common sense than most of the others.

[Choko]

Yep, I feel you! It is a great read though, isn't it?!

[RachelG.]

It is but I have to take breaks and read something not so heavy after awhile to recharge.

[Choko]

I understand completely! I think I was able to get through all 5 books at once was because I hadn't been reading for a long while... I took my break beforehand:) I am glad I get to read something lighter now though ...

[Nirkatze]

I'm really curious how this trilogy will wrap up... but I'm also worried, considering we're looking at 10k years of history, that it won't...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

There's a skill involved in creating scenarios that are horrible, but eminently readable...

Plenty of other series, the horrible actions make you want to quit at times... not so much, here...

[Choko]

Yeah... Nirkadze,I don't think it's possible , however the story ends, that things would stay still for 10 000 years... Look at all the changes 200 years have wroth.

Iain, I totally agree! This is dark, but very readable...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "I'm really curious how this trilogy will wrap up... but I'm also worried, considering we're looking at 10k years of history, that it won't..."

(view spoiler)[Scorched Earth... kill everyone, destroy tech/mechs, remove all threats to power of the Emperor, takeover spice farming on Arrakis from Fremen traders, and setup the Spacing Guild officially (and probably spill the secrets of how navigators are made?)...

Basically, has to make Emperor all powerful, with House Atreides & Harkonnens creeping in over the 10k years to be the powerhouses they are in Dune, with no more threats from religion or business conglomerates...

As is constantly noted here, the Emperor lacks power/authority, because of the power wielded by VenPort & the Butlerians... that power dynamic needs to change to setup Dune... (hide spoiler)]