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Change to the Page Count Rule?
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Love the topic, let us know!
Allison wrote: "Just for context, it used to be 170 page minimum and actual novels only. Now it's 160 pages, novels or novellas :)Love the topic, let us know!"
I'm sorry, I didn't include that crucial information! Thanks, Allison :)
I'm all for shortening the word count if it comes to a vote and people still want to read a story. There are some great shorter works out there.
maybe once a year a shorter works reading, but I'd prefer to have longer reads for the monthly reads
I do like short and novella length work, but, at the same time it does feel a bit wrong to have a short story win a BOTM. I feel like I’d read it in an hour, comment once or twice, and unless it’s particularly good or thought provoking, usually just move on to the next. So in that regard, I think the regular BOTM should keep at least a novella length limit. But I would enjoy a short story collection BOTM month here and there. There’s so many great SF&F collections I need excuses to read. Help me out! 😁
One thing to keep in mind though! Hypothetically, suppose there are 3 books nominated. One is 500 pages long, one's 250 and the other had 125. There is no guarantee that the short book would win. The main point is that it could be nominated if the bar were to be lowered.
Personally, I wouldn't mind lowering the page count, but I don't have super strong opinions on this either way.
If I remember correct one of the concerns over shorter books was that there wouldn’t be enough to discuss, but I have encountered some short books, especially in the past couple years as books trend shorter, that offer plenty to discuss.I’ve also encountered 500 page books that leave me nothing to discuss. 😂
All that is to say, I wouldn’t mind lowering the page count either, although I don’t know how short we should go.
Michelle wrote: "One thing to keep in mind though! Hypothetically, suppose there are 3 books nominated. One is 500 pages long, one's 250 and the other had 125. There is no guarantee that the short book would win. T..."Fair point, Michelle. Do you have a cutoff limit in mind?
I wouldn't go below 100 but I'd still prefer to keep the limit where it is except for one month a year
Becky wrote: "Michelle wrote: "One thing to keep in mind though! Hypothetically, suppose there are 3 books nominated. One is 500 pages long, one's 250 and the other had 125. There is no guarantee that the short ..."No, I don't think it's my place. The purpose was to see if other members were open to the change. The mods should probably come up with a number.
maybe we could have a monthly shorter selection as well?
Personally, I would love it if we lowered the page count. I am a huge fan of shorter length (ie novella) works. There is a definite trend of publishing novellas and I love them. Many older “classics” in both SF and Fantasy were shorter and lowering the word count might help include them or at least eliminate the worry.
CBRetriever wrote: "maybe we could have a monthly shorter selection as well?"I guess this is where the discussion will be heading, eventually. Maybe not monthly, but three or four times a year.
Alternatively, we might set up a system for reading short stories. I've recently joined of a group that reads one short story a week; they choose an anthology beforehand (a poll every week would be too much for anybody, I guess). It's a different format from any other group I know, and I like that.
In reponse to the theme of this topic, I'm fine with the current rules.
But since we're talking about it, I have had problems with exorbitant page counts, and I've been forced to give up BotMs because they were too long (including, currently, The Fox Wife).
We had the short fic reading group, we started the short fic challenge (still ongoing), and the short fic buddy read thread (still there), but they aren't very popular. A handful of people are still doing the short fic challenge (yay, you slay) and I think the short fic BR system was used like once or twice, so what we've taken from that, and the fact that so few people nominate short fiction collections even after they were allowed, is that not many are interested in reading short fiction, and if they are, they're not doing it here.We can read things together in this group without them being official group selections! It's fun, try it! :D
Short Fiction Challenge
Short Fiction Buddy Reads
a.g.e. montagner wrote: "CBRetriever wrote: "maybe we could have a monthly shorter selection as well?"But since we're talking about it, I have had problems with exorbitant page counts, and I've been forced to give up BotMs because they were too long..."
Same. My personal challenge number for this group gets shorter every year because many of the BOTM selections are so long that I often skip them. I love science fiction, but reading a 500+ page book isn't realistic for me most months. This isn't the only reading challenge I participate in and I can only read so much.
I have run a "Read the Beast" challenge for Habitica for several years, in which people are challenged to read a book 500 pages or longer but given two months in which to do that. It's quite popular. A few people rip through two or three "Beasts" in the challenge period, but most use the two month period to complete one Beast.
I would love the inclusion of novellas in our BOTMs.
Mod
160 is when novellas turn into novels! I think around 80 is novelettes iirc.
Mod
I don't look for the page count when I pick a book to read. I read what sounds interesting to me. With that said, I'm not going to ignore a book because it's either too long or too short. Lowering the page standard wouldn't force me to read shorter works; it would just provide more options in nominations.
I often look at page count. Usually based on my mood, or how behind I am on my challenges, or sometimes schedule. If I am going to be on a long flight, or have vacation time or something, I might choose a longer, more immersive book over shorter ones. -----
RE: Short story options:
1) Thanks for the reminder of the options here. I'm gonna check out the challenge. :)
2) Question: Why only single author collection? Is that for ease of the author eligibility tracking?
3) Personally, I think BRs in large groups like this are hard because of reading pace and scheduling coordination issues. Unless we have a set schedule of a chapter a day or something, I'm either blowing through them like water and leaving my buddies behind, or lose focus and end up being the rotten egg finisher. (IF I finish lol.) It feels like more pressure than a BOTM to me, because I haven't ever 'committed' to a BOTM*, whereas I have with a BR and feel accountable. That's why I only BR with a small selection of friends who are used to my random reading spurts and wonky brain.
(*If I vote for a winning BOTM book, I will do my best to participate, but if I don't, the group discussion still happens and I don't feel like I'm leaving anyone in a lurch.)
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That being said, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I think single short stories/novelettes are not ideal for a BOTM, but, like Michelle says, it's not like that would happen frequently (or maybe at all) - and even if it did, it might be a nice break for a month.
So... I'm not against changing the page count to lower, and would even be a "YEA" vote, but if it doesn't change, I'm OK with that too. :)
I forget this group has a thread for everything! Thanks Anna for the reminder.
I'll have to try to revive the short fiction buddy reads.
I want to participate in those short fiction topics but wind up either not having access or nobody else is participating at that time. And yes BRs are unsatisfying, a pale substitute.I read library books. Even with ebooks included, most shorter stories are not available there. (An exception is The Martian Obelisk which is on Libby/Overdrive.) Novellas are avl. I can even get the novelette which prompted this discussion.
So, with all that in mind, I have to say that I'll accept whatever you-all decide.
(Topic for another thread if anyone wants to start it - should doorstoppers like The Fox Wife be read over the course of two months? I'd vote yes.)
Cheryl wrote: "...(Topic for another thread if anyone wants to start it - should doorstoppers like The Fox Wife be read over the course of two months? I'd vote yes.)."Maybe you should start that thread!
Some examples would be useful otherwise I think the discussion will just flail around in vague generalities. For example, Paul Cornell's excellent Witches of Lychford is a 144 page novella and would be a fun read I think.
However, an equally good piece by Kerstin Hall, A Heart Between Teeth would be too short to be the only thing read in a month at 39 pages.
It might be good to use an 'official' definition of terms too. Here's the SFWA's list for purposes of the Nebula award. The Hugo uses these same lengths to categorize works:
Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
Novel: 40,000 words or more.
If we want to allow novellas, that means any work of 17.5k words or more. If we assume 250 words per page, that's 70 pages. If we only want to allow novels, that's 160 pages.
Alternatively, we could allow long novellas only, but not the entire range. So, say, 30k words or more (120 pages at 250 per page)
I wish it were easier to find out the word count in novels / novellas on Goodreads because that would help a lot. For instance, The Fox Wife has more pages than the book I just finished (The Saint of Bright Doors), but the words per page is much higher / denser for Saint of Bright Doors, and I'm sure it took me longer to read than it will to finish The Fox Wife. Sometimes books are printed with a lot of space around the words on a page, so while they seem long page-wise, they are not necessarily longer in terms of amount to read. All that said, I do like reading novellas, and I wouldn't mind if we had more flexibility for including them in book of the month options. Long books are also fine, though, if they are good stories. I also read more for the story than length (and mostly read library books).
Sorry, I often do a lot of reading and then don't have time to reply. For what it's worth: I agree with "lower the minimum number of pages allowed to qualify shorter works".
Yes, it's 160 pages right now to include "novellas" that are not novellas but are marketed as such :)
Illogically, I seem to accept novellas that are bound and marketed separately as books, but not the ones that are published in magazines. For me it isn’t just word count that makes a “book”, apparently.
(Sorry busy day, short replies.)I get that not everyone likes buddy reads! I don't always remember that, because for me they are the superior form of reading with others, compared to group reads with what tools Goodreads currently offers us. (Talking about spoiler tags.)
I came in with my short fic guns blazing when Allison asked me to mod with her, ready to fight to allow all lengths of short fic, but funnily now, after several years of back and forth about this, I have sort of changed my mind, kinda? See above about all the ways we've tried to incorporate short fiction, but there aren't many takers, and we wouldn't want to only cater to a small audience. So for me personally, I'd need to see some action on this front to believe that the group is ready to embrace shorter works.
That said, I am not the boss of you! On the contrary, I work for you, I think of myself as the group secretary, typing away at my spreadsheets, periodically glancing over my spectacles to make sure everyone is playing nicely :) So I could be all for chaos, we already released all the other formats, why not become a flash fiction reading group, and instead of a min page count, disallow anything over 300 pages! :D
Anna wrote: "So I could be all for chaos, we already released all the other formats, why not become a flash fiction reading group, and instead of a min page count, disallow anything over 300 pages! :D"Story of the Day, Novella of the Week, Book of the Month. Let's do it! :P
Stephen wrote: "Illogically, I seem to accept novellas that are bound and marketed separately as books, but not the ones that are published in magazines. For me it isn’t just word count that makes a “book”, apparently."
I'm with you on this, Stephen! I don't read magazines at all, so stories that are only published in them are lost on me. I read ONE magazine story, and it constantly bothers me now because the story I reviewed and added to my shelf is gone, edited to reflect the magazine it was in. (I am a GR Librarian, so I know this was due to the GR "what is a book" rule, but it still irks.)
Flash fiction (or poem!) of the hour? :D(New 24/7/365 reading challenge coming in 2025!)
I keep editing, but it can't be a coincidence that novella of the week would be called NOTW?! So, we're essentially gonna be reading those 25 pages of Name of the Wind weekly? XD
Stephen wrote: "Illogically, I seem to accept novellas that are bound and marketed separately as books, but not the ones that are published in magazines. For me it isn’t just word count that makes a “book”, appare..."but Amazon, B&N, Google Books, etc sell short stories as "books". I do have problems paying $1.99 or higher for a short story of 25 pages though
For those looking for more short fiction, a lot of the times the short fiction is posted somewhere for free. I know Tor.com posts a lot of free stories. I looked at the Bram Stoker awards earlier this year and I think most of those stories were available for free.
A quick Google of the 5/6 nominated stories for the Nebula revealed they were all posted for free reading (uncanny magazine, Clarkesworld Magazine, and Nightmare Magazine.
That doesn’t really help with the issue of discovery but if you are looking for a specific story it’s usually worth just googling it.
Maybe we should consider as said above whether we’ll consider shorter works that were published in magazines or not. If they are true novella length and are only available in an anthology or a magazine (even if it’s available online for free) should we make those ones ineligible? Only accepting, books sold and marketed as entities in and of themselves? I don’t feel like we need to do a separate poll or make one of the GR polls be just for novellas. I think novellas might hold their own against longer works, as we’ve seen with Tusks of Extinction.
the ones in magazines might be difficult for some people to get access to
I was thinking >= novelettes, anyway.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Witches of Lychford (other topics)A Heart Between Teeth (other topics)
The Martian Obelisk (other topics)
The Fox Wife (other topics)
There's a tiny bit of controversy over our club bookshelf. Up until now members could only nominate a book in a poll if it had a minimum number of pages. A lot of nominations have been nixed because they would fall short of the minimum allowable pages.
My question to my fellow members would be: Should we lower the minimum allowable pages in order to qualify shorter works, or should we leave everything As Is to keep things simple?