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#486 - Pre-re-read
Alas, I am a Dodger Fan. Although I am a true fan of all things baseball. But enough about baseball. A couple of years ago I did a Summer of Bujold, but only did the Fantasy side of her books, but not the Science Fiction mostly because of the book order debate. I am a big fan of her current novella series Penric & Desdemona.
Speaking of Galway and Glasgow…I’m Italian/Irish and the Éire side of my family is from Galway. When my mom visited Ireland several years ago she gifted the lady who ran the B&B some family token and it was clear on the video the woman was unenthusiastic about it. As I said to my mom at the time, it’s probably because she gets this from Americans all the time and likely has a closet full of such tchotchkes. 😆 Other than that instance, she said everyone was tremendously friendly.
Currently listening to Paper & Blood by Kevin Hearne, which takes place in the same world as the Iron Druid series, but features a wizard who’s from Glasgow. Narrated by (American) Luke Daniels who is doing yet another spectacular job switching between numerous accents.
Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!The British Isles (sometimes called the Atlantic Archipelago) is a group of islands off north-western Europe, including the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain, as well as a bunch of smaller islands such as Orkney, Shetland, and the Isle of Man.
Great Britain is the largest island of the group and it has three main regions - Scotland in the north, Wales in the West, and the largest, England, in the south and east. These areas are known as nations and have their own distinctive histories, cultures, and to an extent languages (although English is by far the dominant language overall in the British Isles, there are areas where other native languages are spoken eg parts of North Wales have a lot of Welsh speakers).
England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland together form the nation state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the UK. Northern Ireland is a region in the north-east of the island of Ireland. It’s a part of the UK but it isn’t part of Great Britain.
The Republic of Ireland is a separate nation state that covers the majority of the island of Ireland. There’s a long and not very happy history between the two nation states that occupy the British Isles, and while relations these days are generally pretty good (though not helped by the strains of Brexit) there are some sensitivities around language, especially the tendency of many people to use the terms ‘England’ ‘Britain’ and ‘the UK’ interchangeably when they are very much not.
Am I the only one who couldn't get the podcast to download from the swordandlaser site? Clicked the usual "Download directly here!" link and got nothing. Rebooted, same. Listening to it on the direct interface now but am just curious if there is an issue with the link or if it's just me.
Here in Thailand, it is just England.
Mod
I got it from that link
I downloaded it onto a USB drive and plugged it into my car to listen on my commute to work.
Downloaded fine and played fine.
Just tried again and it downloaded fine.
Mod
They are just Poms, Taffys, Scotch & Micks to me 😉
I am half Pom & Mick 😎
Ruth wrote: "Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!The British Isles (sometimes called the Atlantic Archipelago) is a group of islands off north-western Europe, including the island of Ireland..."
Did they really get that wrong though? They wondered if 'Britophile' was a word (not according to most dictionaries, but it gets used on the internet due to lack of a proper alternative) and said that people from Ireland don't think of themselves as from the 'British' Isles, but were technically wrong, and I think that's about it.
Mind you, by 'people from Ireland', they were probably thinking of the Republic. I went to school with a couple of Northern Irish girls who were very insistent that they be called "British" and not "Irish"...
Ruth wrote: "Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!"*Raises hand
What about the Manx, Miss?
So World Con is in Glasgow at the same time as the Edinburgh Festival?Might be cheaper to get a room in Cardiff and fly up.
The Isle of Man is a mythical place populated by tailless cats who spend all day riding motorbikes very fast.
Jamie wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!Did they really get that wrong though?
"
iirc there was a reference to Ireland and Scotland not being part of Britain. This is true of (the republic of) Ireland but not Scotland, which is definitely part of both Great Britain the island and the United Kingdom.
Pumpkinstew wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!"*Raises hand
What about the Manx, Miss?"
The Isle of Man is a part of the British Isles but is neither part of the Republic of Ireland, nor part of the United Kingdom. Nor is it a sovereign state. It’s a Crown Dependency. This basically means that King Charles III is officially the boss of it (with the splendid title “Lord of Mann” spelled with two ‘n’s for some reason) but in practice it’s self-governing for internal affairs and comes under the umbrella of the UK for foreign policy and defence. The Channel Islands are also Crown Dependencies. They are not strictly speaking geographically part of the British Isles (they’re just off the coast of Normandy in France) but they are usually thrown in with the British Isles because they come under the defence umbrella of the UK.
I think that covers everything…
So you see it’s all really very simple and easy to understand.
although there’s also the Faroe Islands… they’re part of Denmark.
Yah, the Danes sort of did the empire thing before the Brits did, and I’m a bit surprised by how much is still in their name, like Greenland. Their must be something with these small seafaring countries that makes them think they should conquer the world.
Ruth wrote: "I think that covers everything…"Bermuda?
Bermuda and the Falkland Islands are both British Overseas Territories. Like Crown Dependencies, but different.
Trike wrote: "Bermuda?"No, she went of her own accord.
Incidentally this discussion reminds me of when Randall Munroe (xkcd guy) answered the question “When did the sun finally set on the British empire?”https://what-if.xkcd.com/48/
The answer: (view spoiler)
Tassie Dave wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Here in Thailand, it is just England."They are just Poms, Taffys, Scotch & Micks to me 😉
I am half Pom & Mick 😎"
I know ‘poms’ and Scotch is easy to guess, but I’m not sure who is a taffy and who is a mick?
Unrelated fun fact, the Welsh colloquially call a microwave a ‘popty ping’
Micks are Irish.Calling an Irishman a Mick to his face is an invitation to get one’s own face punched.
Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: I know ‘poms’ and Scotch is easy to guess, but I’m not sure who is a taffy and who is a mick?
Taffy is "Welsh". As in the River Taff, which runs through Cardiff.
Ah, I’m not sure those two terms are commonly known in England, though maybe that’s just me. And I’ve never been to Cardiff and often forget even the names of rivers close to me. I wonder if someone from Ireland would actually be offended if called a Mick, or if they’d be as confused as I was. I know ‘pom’ is meant to be offensive, at least slightly, though I’ve only ever heard it used jokingly, but I can’t imagine being bothered if someone threw it at me as an insult. I’d just be like ‘yep, I’m English’.
Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Ah, I’m not sure those two terms are commonly known in England, though maybe that’s just me. And I’ve never been to Cardiff and often forget even the names of rivers close to me."I'm aware of the words but can't recall hearing anyone use them outside of old films, or something. They are both a tad derogatory but they may also be old-fashioned these days.
Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Ah, I’m not sure those two terms are commonly known in England, though maybe that’s just me. And I’ve never been to Cardiff and often forget even the names of rivers close to me. I wonder if someon..."Well... Australians ....
And pom is not usually used as a single word, yah pommy .....
Mod
We called the Catholic school kids across the road from our state school 'Micks'. It was derogatory, but friendly mocking. We played with the same kids outside of school.
The English have always been 'the Poms'. Even the cricket team is know as "The Poms". It is, jokingly, derogatory. Like how they make jokes about our convict past.
Aussies are totally irreverent. We call you names, you call us names and we laugh about it. You should hear what we call each other.
Ruth wrote: "Ok, listen up yanks, it’s time for a geography lesson!The British Isles (sometimes called the Atlantic Archipelago) is a group of islands off north-western Europe, including the island of Ireland..."
I took a Chinese-American coworker in the States to his first Irish Pub and he asked me "So, is Ireland in the Scotland part of England?" I didn't even know where to start...
Tassie Dave wrote: "You should hear what we call each other."Isn't it mostly just G'day Bruce?
Seth wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "You should hear what we call each other."Isn't it mostly just G'day Bruce?"
Pooftahs.
At least that’s what I overheard truck drivers call each other. Which surely can’t be universally true since I saw a lot of kids running around.
Trike wrote: "Micks are Irish.Calling an Irishman a Mick to his face is an invitation to get one’s own face punched."
I'm pretty sure that in Wolkworld 2024 all of those are considered some kind of derogatory slurr.
Mod
In any case I know all of this very well and try my best to be an example of the person not from there who does know it so it pains me greatly that I failed. I think from now on I'll just say I don't know anything. It's easier. ;)
Tom wrote: "I was fairly certain I said Ireland didn't love being lumped in with the British Isles, which was just an opinion mind you and that Scotland and Ireland wouldn't really love being lumped in with th..."Jaysus crackers, trust a bloody mick to get it wrong.
Tom wrote: "I was fairly certain I said Ireland didn't love being lumped in with the British Isles, which was just an opinion mind you and that Scotland and Ireland wouldn't really love being lumped in with th..."We grudgingly forgive you. :P
Don’t worry about it Tom, plenty of people over here get it wrong - especially English people!
Haaa, so if I may provide some cover for Tom and insight for Ruth: I feel Ruth's pain. But I feel it because I am part of the problem. I've seen the explanation on multiple occasions and just can't recall which geographical location gets lumped where.On average I try to be sophisticated about geography / history etc. Well, for an American. Europeans seem to be able to do this in their sleep. I will cheerfully tell stories of my film biz days and researching to see if French Switzerland was reserved for a library we want to sell for TV. And the like. When it comes to the England / UK / British Isles stuff my brain goes brrr.
I think American ignorance of geography is part cultural and part physical isolation. Canadians have the exact same level of ignorance, which doesn’t surprise me.Something like 18% of Americans have never been on an airplane, but I suspect that number is far larger. A friend of ours took her first plane ride last summer at 67 years old. It’s a shame she didn’t fly 30 years ago when it didn’t totally suck.
I’d never flown until I was 21, but had visited several different countries before that. Living in a place where things are smaller and closer together is helpful for that. In the US, depending on States, you could drive the same distance I did and still be in the same state, let alone country.
Yeah, I haven’t been on a plane in nearly two years but I’ve visited three different countries in that time via car, train, and ferry.
Mod
Tom wrote: "I’m still entirely bugged about this because I do know my geography and I know the differences very well. Like I literally can’t sleep right now I’m so mad about it. And I don’t even remember what ..."If it makes you feel any better, I made it through my 20’s thinking Maine was ‘I don’t know, somewhere in the middle, maybe?’
Tom wrote: "I’m still entirely bugged about this because I do know my geography and I know the differences very well. Like I literally can’t sleep right now I’m so mad about it. And I don’t even remember what ..."I went back and re-listened to part of the episode to make sure I wasn’t imagining things and in the part about the Glasgow WorldCon you talk about going to WorldCons in the British Isles because you’re Brit-ophiles and then you say “it’s Ireland and Scotland, it’s not even Britain.”
So Ireland and Scotland are definitely different from England (hence the word Anglophone being inappropriate for someone who enjoys visiting these places) but Scotland is part of Great Britain. It’s a minor mistake please don’t beat yourself up about it!
In any case I hope you and Veronica can make it to the Glasgow WorldCon, both of us Ruths will be there!
Mod
Tom wrote: "Yeah. I’m going to beat myself up because I know what Britain is and I knew what I meant to say when I said that which was it’s not even all of Britain. Sigh. This is just the way my brain works. I..."At WorldCon you should be pretty safe if you refer to people as British. That covers England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It doesn't cover Southern Ireland, but being correct 4 out of 5 times ain't bad.
As a side note, if there is any soccer going on during WorldCon it's inadvisable to go out wearing green or blue. Glasgow has a bit of a reputation as a place where you go out for a laugh and come back in stitches :)
And avoid the infamous Glasgow kiss if at all possible. And when native Glaswegians try to speak to you while drunk, they are not necessarily angry at you. Just smile and nod, and you’ll probably be fine. I learned this from Glaswegian family. :)
The situation is lovingly summed up by this banned ad for the 6 Nations rugby competition. https://youtu.be/UmkbJlYx1v8?si=itiin...
My experience is most people in the UK want to keep well away from the South (which does not include Cornwall which wants to know why it was left out) which is populated by a. Bunch of Bankers.
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