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message 501:
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The M✝️(KALADIN & EPIC & ILIUM & TELEMARKET Ed.)
(new)
Sep 17, 2024 03:46PM
(Yes, but he didn’t mean that literally. Communion is a symbol)
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Nah, he meant that literally. That's why everyone but the 12 left Jesus afterwards. Jesus didn't "correct" their understanding by saying it was merely a symbol. After the consecration, Communion truly becomes the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ :)
(Yay! 🎉 Now I have another to help me with debates…it’s gets a little exhausting being one person debating 3 or 4 others…🤣)
(Not everything Jesus said was literal He said a lot of things that were more symbolic or metaphors to help them understand. He used Communion as a symbol of his body and blood to help remind us of what He did for us on the cross)
(Thanks Eva!!! 🫡)
FACTS Stephen FACTS…🤣🤣🤣
(Also, Communion isn’t supposed to be taken every week because then it becomes a habit and you don’t really think about the value of it as you take it.)
@The M, that's my point :) Jesus used all kinds of different metaphors, and yet his audience, in those moments, knew he was speaking metaphorically. No one ever said "this man's crazy. He is calling us sheep" or ____. But with the Communion discourse, they knew he meant it literally. That's why they left. The early church fathers also believed Communion was literal.
That's a non sequitur btw. That's like saying we shouldn't pray daily b/c then it becomes a dry habit, and yet, we know St. Paul says in one of his letters to "pray always without ceasing."
That's a non sequitur btw. That's like saying we shouldn't pray daily b/c then it becomes a dry habit, and yet, we know St. Paul says in one of his letters to "pray always without ceasing."
(No it’s not. For some, prayer does become a dry habit because they’re not doing it with really thinking or with their heart. Also, Jesus never said it was literal. He used it as a metaphor. Don’t you think the disciples would’ve been weirded out if they thought they were actually eating His body and drinking His blood? Another thing, the disciples were often confused when He used metaphors. They sometimes took it to literally instead of thinking that it actually could be a metaphor.
(We should probably bring this to the debate thread…🤣)
Not just that, but if you go back to the Greek, the word used is from trógó, which was used to describe an animal gnawing or eating. That's one reason I like the ESV translation here, when it says "for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever FEEDS on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him" (John 6:55-56).
And they did. If it was mere metaphor, the grumbling of the other disciples (see John 6:60-61) makes no sense
And they did. If it was mere metaphor, the grumbling of the other disciples (see John 6:60-61) makes no sense
It makes sense in context of Jewish sacrifice. we used to sacrifice/eat of the Passover lamb. Christ is the new Passover Lamb, the lamb par excellence. it makes sense that, we, too, would eat of him.
(Hm. I’m not as learned on this issue as I’d like to be. Would you mind if I studied up more on this issue and get back to you later? Sorry…🤣)
Oh sure, and btw, I'm not debating per se. just sharing/discussing my faith.
May I invite you to read John ch.6, though? :)
May I invite you to read John ch.6, though? :)
And btw, you're right. It IS weird. But Christianity is a religion for weirdos anyways 😅 We took what was once the most ignoble symbol in the world (the cross) and turned it into a symbol of victory and honor. It became our trophy, our glory, the cross was our jewelry even.
(I want to share my faith to but I need to study a bit more on this topic so I don’t sound like a repetitive idiot…🤣. I’ve actually been studying John recently so I may have something in my notes!)
(Yes, but even with the cross we sometimes focus too much on it and turn it into something more than it is…if that makes sense…not saying in ANY WAY that the cross isn’t powerful)
I think we have the opposite problem: we don’t focus enough on the cross, for it is through the cross that we are healed from the bites of the ancient serpent, as Christ himself says “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so too must the Son of Man be lifted up” or, as Paul says ‘I have resolved to know nothing but Christ and him crucified.” :)
(Yes but the cross isn’t Jesus. If we focus to much on it it becomes an idol. Jesus is way more important than the cross. Even unbelievers where cross necklaces. It’s become more of a fashion statement than something with meaning)
Well, that goes back to the intention of the heart :) of course, Christ did say ‘he who wishes to be my disciple, must take up his cross and follow me” the meaning being we must bear the cross if we want to be a disciple of Jesus :) the cross is our participation in the kenosis of Christ, our union with his salvific mission.
(Sorry, I’d include verse numbers, but I’m quoting from memory 😅)
(Sorry, I’d include verse numbers, but I’m quoting from memory 😅)
(That’s ok. I agree that the cross is important but all I’m saying is if it consumes more time than we spend with Jesus, it becomes an idol.)
I think that’s impossible tbh. Unless you remove the cross from its Christian roots. But in the context of Christianity, you can’t make it an idol.
(But if it takes you away from spending time with Jesus that makes it an idol. Anything that consumes your time other than Jesus is an idol. But agree to disagree I guess 🤷🏼♀️)
But I don’t think you can quantify these things. E.g., a mom will spend more time with her newly born baby than at church. Or doing something that’s directly re
religious. Ergo, is the baby an idol then?
religious. Ergo, is the baby an idol then?
Mod
Mod
That’s my point. The cross and Jesus are inseparable. Focusing on the cross doesn’t turn your attention away from Christ, but leads you to Him. If ‘the cross’ became an idol, then whatever you’re calling ‘the cross’ isn’t the cross 🤷 that’s like saying reading the Bible can become idolatrous. It’s faulty reasoning (no offense)
(Exactly, Bets!!! If she’s taking care of her baby for God and not just to take care of it then it’s not an idol. If it’s just to take care of it without doing it for Him, then it’s an idol. Always do things with God in mind)
Mod
Right, but you did say “anything that consumes your time other than Jesus is an idol”
So, I brought the baby up as an example of something you do more than ‘spending time with Jesus’ as in, we can’t use quantification to determine what is true religion or idolatry.
No one focuses on the cross unless they’re worshipping Jesus. It’s just not possible. Read in the psalms. One of the ways we worship God is by recalling His saving actions.
So, I brought the baby up as an example of something you do more than ‘spending time with Jesus’ as in, we can’t use quantification to determine what is true religion or idolatry.
No one focuses on the cross unless they’re worshipping Jesus. It’s just not possible. Read in the psalms. One of the ways we worship God is by recalling His saving actions.
(Amen, Bets!!!! 🙌)
You’re right, but your reasoning is incorrect. Jesus didn’t have to die on the cross to save us (that’s Thomas Aquinas), but He did. So we recall to mind what He did. How can recalling what God did be an obstacle? It might be an obstacle to a relationship with a ‘false Jesus’ a Jesus of our own making, but not the Jesus of the Bible. :) this is where the psalms are so instructive on *how* to worship properly.
Mod
And really why just the cross? The empty tomb is even more important. For the Holy Spirit inspired that verse in the New Testament which explains that without Christ's resurrection, Jesus' death would be meaningless. And therefore Christianity would be a dead faith. (Sorry I couldn't provide the reference for that verse.)
(It’s an obstacle if we spend too much time much time focusing on it)
Mod
Oh and with the baby, you can’t spend time with Jesus while caring for a baby?
(Amen, BNC!!! 🙌)
Bets, again, that’s my point lol. Same with the cross at Books point. The cross and the resurrection are inseparable. They’re not in competition with each other. You can’t, like I said, try to quantify these things. ‘Oh, I spent the last week focusing on the cross. Now I should spend another week focusing on the resurrection or else I’m doing something wrong.”
“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” (1st Corinthians 2:2)
(@Olivia 🤣)
Do you really think St.Paul didn’t imply the resurrection is included in our remembrance of the cross? It’s… simply absurd to think so.
(As BNC said, we should focus on the meaning behind it not the symbol itself)
In this conversation, if we wish to continue, let’s focus on what the Bible is saying here :) I used the ESV btw
(It’s ok Eva 🤣)
I missed so much, idk if I feel like reading it all lol
The meaning and ‘the symbol’ are inseparable. You can’t divide the two.
I feel that Eva 😅 it’s just this type of thinking is dangerous tbh
(I’m not dividing it. Behind every symbol is a meaning right? Hence why it’s called a symbol. So we should focus on the meaning of the symbol and not the symbol itself)
But you are when you say things like ‘if we focus more on the cross than Jesus then the cross becomes an idol” when I’m meditating on the cross, the sufferings of Christ, I’m focusing on Jesus.
(What I’m saying is you should focus on the meaning not just the symbol. You c ant just be thinking about the symbol you have to ponder the meaning too)
