The Book of Daniel - Sept BOTM

[Diane]

Review thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Diane]

The Book of Daniel by EL Doctorow

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow?

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?

3. The word "prophet" in the Bible simply means someone who speaks on God's behalf, not necessarily someone who tells the future. Daniel is one of the few prophets to whom the end times are revealed. With this in mind, why might Doctorow have chosen the name Daniel?

4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways?

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain.

[Rosemary]

(Contains spoilers)

1. There are themes of politics, scapegoating and miscarriage of justice, but for me the main focus is on what happens to children who are both traumatised by events outside of their control and thrust into the spotlight at the same time.

2. It seems to say that even democracies can foster a culture of fear and injustice.

3. I actually thought more about Daniel in the lions' den than the prophet aspect. Daniel is facing a ravenous beast in the form of a perversion of the system of justice, but unlike his biblical counterpart, he doesn't manage to tame it.

4. Susan makes ineffectual gestures like trying to use her trust fund for political ends before she is old enough to control it. She also internalises the trauma and becomes mentally ill and self-destructive. Daniel focuses his anger outwardly, becoming violent and taking it out on his wife.

5. I didn't know much about the Rosenbergs' trial before reading this - just the bare facts of their name and execution - but I read a bit about it while I was listening to the book on audio.

The Book of Daniel was written at a time when many people believed that the Rosenbergs were innocent. It now seems clear that Julius Rosenberg was guilty of espionage but Ethel perhaps was not, or certainly was not so involved that she deserved the same sentence. In the novel several theories are put forward regarding the Isaacsons' innocence or guilt: from no espionage having taken place at all, to both being guilty and deserving what they got (Linda Mindish), with several possibilities in between.

The suggestion that seemed strongest to me in relation to the Rosenbergs was that the wife (Rochelle Isaacson) was used as a pawn to try to make her husband confess or to make them both implicate others. The fact that neither she nor her husband gave into this pressure results in a sentence that is unjust at least for her and perhaps for both. This steadfastness on their part also had a terrible effect on their children, who could have been left with at least one and possibly two parents alive and free if the parents had not valued their political principles so highly. I'm not judging their decision but just pointing out that it had results for the children too - although neither child ever seems to blame them for this.

[Pamela]

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow?
For me the main theme is the search for truth. Other themes are power, politics and justice, and the impact of these on the individual.

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?
The novel suggests that these things are malleable rather than fixed, and can be manipulated in the aims of ‘the greater interest’. They can also be interpreted differently at different points in time - e.g. how the revolutionaries of the Cold War were adopted and their ideals reconstructed into those of the 60s. These abstract concepts have a concert personal and social impact that is never felt or acknowledged by those in power.

3. The word "prophet" in the Bible simply means someone who speaks on God's behalf, not necessarily someone who tells the future. Daniel is one of the few prophets to whom the end times are revealed. With this in mind, why might Doctorow have chosen the name Daniel?
Through the book he is writing, Daniel is the mouthpiece for his family and their experiences, but he also has limitations in interpreting them which he recognises when he visits Susan in hospital. This is like the Biblical Daniel who cannot make sense of his own dreams. Also like the Biblical Daniel, he closes the book at the end and goes on his way - literally and figuratively.

4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways?
Daniel withdraws from everyone, even his wife who he treats with hostility and cruelty. He immerses himself in his book, where he is trying to make sense of events, and avoids politics until near the end of the book. Susan gets involved in radical politics, but also retreats from the world as she suffers mental illness after using sex and drugs to mask her pain. Ultimately she doesn’t succeed in coping with the trauma and kills herself.

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain.

Like Rosemary, I had to look outside the book and my initial knowledge of the case to answer this. Doctorow explores the question of whether the Isaacson/Rosenbergs were guilty and in what way they were - was there a conspiracy at all, and how much were they involved, was the whole thing inflated to fuel the fear of the Russians? There is also the role played by Mindish, and whether he was being played by the FBI or by others in the Communist movement. Doctorow goes further in examining how the Rosenberg case influenced left wing resistance in the 60s, such as the opposition to the Vietnam war.

[Gail]

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow?

I found the major themes to be about justice and truth but not in the way that would be commonly interpreted, rather it was about the way they are manipulations of those in power and in the context of a history that is also completely malleable. Daniel is unable to find even the core meaning of those words much less anything approximating true knowledge. There are other themes that flow from these themes but it is always brought back to the traumatized children. A world that can not give agree on what justice and truth are, is a world that is crippling its children.

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?

The communism in America before WWII and the socialism during much of the 20th century was one of "party", a group, collaborative if you will, with leaders and followers. The democratic capitalism of the era of the "Red Scare" is one that is run more top down. This all flowed into an era where there was little cohesion and people demonstrated from a grass roots collective or from personal beliefs but not because they trusted their leaders or adhered to a set of party rules.

3. The word "prophet" in the Bible simply means someone who speaks on God's behalf, not necessarily someone who tells the future. Daniel is one of the few prophets to whom the end times are revealed. With this in mind, why might Doctorow have chosen the name Daniel?

The Biblical Daniel was able to interpret other people's dreams but crucially not his own. He was also protected by God so that what other people predicted would happen did not come to pass...Doctorow's Daniel is an individual shown at the end times.

4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways?

They do not cope. Daniel is a truly horrible human being, although one understands why he is that way, nevertheless it does not excuse his need to hurt others and to be unsympathetic to everyone around him. Compared to Daniel's internalization of his damage that breaks out of the cracks when he is with his parents and his wife and son, Susan is full of rage from the beginning and ultimately dies a completely broken individual.

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain.

Given what was known at the time of the writing of this book, Doctorow does an amazing job of bringing up all the different possibilities as to the Isaacson's guilt or innocence without landing definitely on any of them. Clearly, whatever they did or did not do was really beside the point given the political conditions at the time. It was not a fair trial and no truth was served.

[Kristel]

The Book of Daniel by EL Doctorow

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow?“Soviet politics”, the “Cold War”, “treason and tyranny”, “traitors and the law”, trauma

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?
Justice isn't always justice, politics are devisive, capitalism is bad (author's opinion? or opinion of the characters?) Mostly this book tells us that we can not trust DOJ now or then. Things are not different. Government, politics is not to be trusted.

3. The word "prophet" in the Bible simply means someone who speaks on God's behalf, not necessarily someone who tells the future. Daniel is one of the few prophets to whom the end times are revealed. With this in mind, why might Doctorow have chosen the name Daniel? I only disliked the correlation between Daniel of the Bible and Daniel of this book because they are not similar.

Perhaps because Daniel had to stand alone against the accepted narrative.

4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways? Daniel is trying to defend his parents, Susan is suicidal.

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain. I've read some other books recently, nonfiction and fiction, that point out how the case against the mother was weak indeed. I do think the government is not to be trusted when it comes to legal issues. Everything is just too political and systems function to maintain themselves.

[Pip]

1. The main theme is the way historical events, this one the execution of the Rosenbergs in 1953 as alleged spies for the Soviet Union, impacts the personal lives of those involved. It is the story of Daniel, the son of the Isaacsons, as stand ins for the Rosenbergs, and his attempt to find out the truth of his parents’ trial. It also delves into how a collective fear of the U.S.S.R. led to the excesses of McCarthyism during the Cold War. The depth of this fear is still relevant because there remains a suspicion that socialism is a bad thing in the U.S.A. today.
2.Doctorow shows that justice is not an absolute, but is influenced by political stances, again still relevant with today’s Supreme Court undoing fifty years of progress in women’s rights. Doctorow’s searing criticism of Disneyland as a phony cultural icon was brilliantly written as an analogy of capitalism in general.
3. The biblical Daniel was an interpreter of the Pharaoh’s dreams.

[Pip]

Sorry - I was interrupted mid comment. The biblical Daniel could interpret dreams, though not his own. The Daniel in the novel is struggling to interpret his own life. The beginning and the end of the novel both reference the Book of Daniel in the Bible, as a kind of parody.

[Pip]

4. They are both seriously damaged. While Susan is suicidal because her emotions are so strong, Daniel enjoys being cruel to his wife, is writing his Ph D thesis about his parents’ execution, and tries and fails to find definitive answers.

[[deleted user]]

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow? Justice, politics, the way children are affected by loss of parents, truth and fear.

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?
It is saying all these things can be manipulated based on who holds the power and what message they want to send. Justice serves politics and not the other way around.


4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways?
Neither is successfully coping. Daniel comes across as a self absorbed sociopath and Susan is struggling with mental health issues and suicidal tendencies.

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain.

Thanks to the others for explaining more about the Rosenbergs as I was totally unfamiliar with this case.

Doctorow makes the argument that as they are charged with conspiracy to commit treason which leaves them no way to prove innocence as they don't physically have to have committed a crime to be sentenced for it. The evidence of a co-conspirator is enough for the justice system.

The case also relied basically on trial by media the defendants were named and tried in the court of public opinion before they even received a trial.

Political feeling at the time was running high with anti-Russian, anti communist views and politicians used this to spread to fear which ultimately affected the whole population. The Isaacson's were swept up in this fear and faced the ultimate punishment.

Doctorow offers several alternatives to the established narrative of the courts.

[Patrick]

1. What is the theme of the book of Daniel by El Doctorow?

The search for truth and justice.

2. What might the novel be saying about justice, politics, capitalism, etc.?

A lot. This “fictional re-enacting” of the Rosenbergs’ trial in the 1950s brings us back to the hysterical era of reds under the beds and exposes in a way how politics, law enforcement and the justice system can work in league to spread fear and discredit certain ideas as a means to their end. Mind you, not much appears to be changed these days in America, where it is still possible to stack the upper echelons of the justice system to ensure that legal decisions fall the same way as your political platform…

3. The word "prophet" in the Bible simply means someone who speaks on God's behalf, not necessarily someone who tells the future. Daniel is one of the few prophets to whom the end times are revealed. With this in mind, why might Doctorow have chosen the name Daniel?

Daniel is a witness throughout his whole life of the end of what we could call socialist radicalism in America. One of the final scenes in the book, where Daniel goes to capitalist Disneyland to finally catch up with the senile Mindish, is a strong allegory of the slow death of this radicalism, both from the ruin of Mindish as well as his prior ideas (a Communist who enjoys repeatedly an automated ride over which he has very little control).

4. Years after their parents' death, both Daniel and Susan are still reeling from the loss. How do they cope with the trauma in different ways?

Daniel externalises his feelings (e.g. recourse to violence, eager to take action) while Susan internalises hers (e.g. behaving more like a victim).

5. While Doctorow does not resolve conclusively in his novel whether the Isaacsons engaged in espionage, he explores several critical themes that resonate with issues raised by the Rosenbergs trial. Explain.

At the book of the book, we don’t really get definite answers or the definite truth of the events surrounding the case, pretty much in the same way that the Rosenberg case evolved. It appears that, at some point in the 90s I believe, some incriminating evidence against Julius Rosenberg was found or disclosed; however, the case against his wife has always more tenuous. A similar picture can be drawn in the book about the Isaacsons.