2015 - April - Theme Read - Warfare on the Russian Front

[Howard]

Sturmoviks were referred to as flying tanks. Interestingly, in reference to Rory's comment 80, question 1: 51% of all the aviation fuel used by the Russians in the war came from the Allies (US) which explains some of the spectacular explosions when U-boats attacked the convoys. All that oil in Baku had to be refined somewhere. Going back to "Supplying War" the Germans had to cross hundreds of miles of Steppe from Rostov to get there. No roads to speak of and no rail. If they arrived they would have been more "out of supply" than Rommel in Egypt.

[Dj]

Rory wrote: "Sorry, hit send too early. Guess point is that just like sports even if you know the opposing team's game plan, they may adjust or even so they may just still have more talent to pull it off even w..."

Yep, Seattle's going to run, so we have to stop the run.
Dang, did you see Lynch just bulldoze our Middle Linebacker and get a TD?

[Dj]

Rory wrote: "Howard,
Glantz references the purge and Finland but generally his work on Kursk in 1987 contains his theme that runs the course through many of his books I've read. This is that the Russians excell..."


Suvorov was a big one for the purge helped clean up the Russian Army and made them better. He also however thinks that Hitler beat Stalin to the punch by invading two weeks before Stalin invaded Germany. So well take that for what it is worth.

I think that proof is in the pudding. One of the Best Marshall's of the Soviet Army was imprisoned and lost all of his teeth during the purge. That would be Rossokovsky.

[Manray9]

Howard wrote: "Sturmoviks were referred to as flying tanks. Interestingly, in reference to Rory's comment 80, question 1: 51% of all the aviation fuel used by the Russians in the war came from the Allies (US) whi..."

Howard: Are you saying the Baku oil was shipped abroad, refined, and then shipped back to the USSR? I don't think so. The Germans choked off the Black Sea and existing pipelines didn't go abroad -- just to the Black Sea and Caspian Sea coasts. The oldest, the Baku-Batumi pipeline, dates back to 1906, but still only took oil to Soviet Georgia's coast. Oil would have been shipped by rail tank car, as it was to Germany during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact period. The Azerbaijani government claims the Baku fields produced 75 million tons of crude during WW II, 80% of the USSR's gasoline, 96% of its lubricants and 90% of its naphtha.

[Dj]

Rory wrote: "Next questions:
1. What influence did American and British lend lease have on Soviet War effort?
2. Why capture Moscow or Leningrad? Seriously, if you want breadbasket, oil, and an area that is rel..."

Rory wrote: "Oh and in fall 1940 the French published series of "what went wrong" articles and they mentioned the plane that went down in Belgium with the German plans and how that was a beautiful deception by ..."

1: Huge. Massive and mostly ignored by post war Russian writers on the war. It wasn't so much arms or fighting vehicles, but things like trucks, jeeps, rolling stock, raw materials. The Russians were always calling for more and the Allies were doing their best to see that they got it. The Russians built more tanks than any other Nation in the war, (maybe every other Nation in the war) but without the trucks to get the supplies there, it wouldn't make for those great dashes that ate up the German forces and territory that make such grand reading.

2: Leningrad and Moscow over and above the political value were both major transportation hubs and would have prevented supply possibilities to the Russians as well as helping to ease supply problems for the Germans. Especially Leningrad.

[Manray9]

Dj wrote: "Rory wrote: "Next questions:
1. What influence did American and British lend lease have on Soviet War effort?
2. Why capture Moscow or Leningrad? Seriously, if you want breadbasket, oil, and an are..."

My experience was widespread ignorance of Lend-Lease in Russia. I made a presentation on the subject at the Russian Foreign Ministry in 1995 -- for the 50th anniversary of VE-Day. The FM historians asked for copies of my notes because they contained the official U.S. government stats on supplies provided. I don't recall specific numbers, but we sent millions of pairs of boots, several hundred locomotives, thousands of Dodge and Studebaker trucks and almost 5,000 Bell P-39 Airacobras. This doesn't count the millions of tons of food and industrial supplies. I do recall we sent almost one million tons of grain and 199 PT boats. Now there's a Lend-Lease Museum in Moscow.

[Howard]

Sorry, never said the Baku oil was sent to the US for refining. Refining limits would have had a big impact on Russian aviation if it weren't for the help from the Western Allies. All the oil in the Caucasus region would not have gotten more planes in the air and without US assistance, Sturmovic and other aviation sorties would have been severely curtailed.
Here is a list of materials sent to the Russians
Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Those are great statistics thanks for posting. Howard would half-tracks come under trucks? I ask as I understood the USSR used M3s operationally and also developed the post-war ZSU57-2 (which was the father of the excellent ZSU23/4 Shilka) from experiments with M3s.

After these next interesting batch of posts I went back and re-read the whole thread as it is a great example of our groups ability to discuss and the interests and views people hold.

This then brought me back to my post 86 and wondering what people's views on the learning or experience gained from the allied supplied equipment was.
A little, a great deal and where would we see it? During the war, immediately after and perhaps less so years later?

I ask as my experience (1980s/1990s) of Soviet kit is that it was workmanlike and technology light yet functional and when operated well could deliver solid and reliable performance so for example Zil/Ural trucks (which seem to be born from US 6x6 trucks) and the aforementioned ZSUs.

[Howard]

Sorry I was not clear about oil. Aviation fuel requires higher levels of refinement.

[Dj]

Howard wrote: "Sorry I was not clear about oil. Aviation fuel requires higher levels of refinement."

100 octane or lots of additives.

[Howard]

I have read the Russians generally liked the P-39s we sent (redesignated P400) even though they were not popular in the west.
The Russians built some good equipment. The tanks they built after the war were designed to offer a low profile but achieved it by storing ammo honeycombed into fuel tank. Israelis and others knew a penetration next to the driver would blow the turret clean off. The tanks were so small it is said they crewed them with their shortest soldiers.
Don't know if half-tracks were counted as trucks or not.
Since this was sent through the northern ports (and up thru Iran, as a longer route) it seems to me that German success beyond Leningrad that could cut the rail line from Murmansk/Arkangel might have been significant.

[Gerald]

Howard wrote: "I have read the Russians generally liked the P-39s we sent (redesignated P400) even though they were not popular in the west.
The Russians built some good equipment. The tanks they built after the..."

The Soviets liked the P-39s. The planes were good low altitude performers, and Soviet-German air battles tended to be fought at low altitude in support of close air support and battlefield air interdiction missions.

Alexander Pokryshkin, the second leading Soviet ace (59 victories), scored many of his victories in P-39s. He was so vocal about his enthusiasm for the plane that his career stalled after the war.

[Howard]

I read somewhere that total us tank production for WWII was about 88,000. More than half were various models of the Sherman. We sent about 30,000 tanks to the Brits, including the Grant tanks in Africa that had frontal armour the Germans couldn't penetrate with their tank-mounted guns until they got the 50mm specials. So the Russians got a pretty good slice of our tank production (also see below from Wikipedia) whereas our total aircraft output for the war was about 300,000.
During World War II, approximately 19,247 Shermans were issued to the US Army and about 1,114 to the US Marine Corps.[27] The U.S. also supplied 17,184 to Great Britain (some of which in turn went to the Canadians and the Free Poles), while the Soviet Union received 4,102[28] and an estimated 812 were transferred to China.[29] These numbers were distributed further to the respective countries' allied nations.
Looks like over half the tanks we sent Russia wer Shermans.

[Howard]

The Russians also got some British tanks, but I don't have any numbers. Common problem in Russia with most of the western-built tanks was narrow tread.
Russians also liked spam, but I guess if you're hungry enough.....

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I love Spam on toast :)

I suppose one of the major factors about the lend lease provision of trucks and jeeps from the US was that it allowed the Russians to soley concentrate their industry on the production of tanks, a big factor in winning the war in the east.

[Howard]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I love Spam on toast :)

I suppose one of the major factors about the lend lease provision of trucks and jeeps from the US was that it allowed the Russians to soley concentrate their industry on th..."

Aussie Rick, I don't do facebook. I am looking to share something with you but it is not on WWII, Howard

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I sent you a message if that helps :)

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Picked up this one for the theme read. The Black March: The Personal Story of an S.S. Man

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I haven't seen that book before Mike, sounds like a classic, keep us posted!

[Howard]

We've been on the subject of the Eastern Front. How many have read "Stuka Pilot" by THE Stuka pilot Hans Rudel?

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I read it many, many years ago, luckily I found a nice second hand HB copy and I loved it and I have never lent it out to anyone just in case it went 'missing'.

[Doubledf99.99]

Howard wrote: "We've been on the subject of the Eastern Front. How many have read "Stuka Pilot" by THE Stuka pilot Hans Rudel?"

I read it many many ages ago and The First and Last by Adolf Galland.

Stuka Pilot

Hans-Ulrich Rudel

[Doubledf99.99]

Something that may be of interest.


https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

[Doubledf99.99]

Thanks go to Mr. Carl, he sent a link to that site earlier in another thread about one of Germany's Aces who just pased on.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Howard wrote: "The Russians also got some British tanks, but I don't have any numbers. Common problem in Russia with most of the western-built tanks was narrow tread.
Russians also liked spam, but I guess if you'..."

There are some figures floating on the internet relating to British tanks supplied. Some sources quote c5000. I have found information stating that 2690 Valentines were sent (some unsurprisingly Canadian produced).

I don't have - I think - any info in my collection of British official histories - but came across this from the history.net written by Alexander Hill and original posted in WWII magazine:

I was recently able to examine Russian-language materials of the State Defense Committee—the Soviet equivalent of the British War Cabinet—held in the former Central Party Archive. Together with other recently published sources, including the wartime diaries of N. I. Biriukov, a Red Army officer responsible from August 1941 on for the distribution of recently acquired tanks to the front lines, this newly available evidence paints a very different picture from the received wisdom. In particular, it shows that British Lend-Lease assistance to the Soviet Union in late 1941 and early 1942 played a far more significant part in the defense of Moscow and the revival of Soviet fortunes in late 1941 than has been acknowledged.

Particularly important for the Soviets in late 1941 were British-supplied tanks and aircraft. American contributions of the time were far fewer. In fact, for a brief period during December 1941, the relative importance of British aid increased well beyond levels planned by the Allies as a result of American reaction to the outbreak of war with Japan; some American equipment destined for the Soviet Union was actually unloaded from merchant vessels and provided to American forces instead.

Further in the article By July 1942 the Red Army had 13,500 tanks in service, with more than 16 percent of those imported, and more than half of those British.

The full article can be read here: http://www.historynet.com/did-russia-...

As I mentioned I think the lease-lend from Britain to Russia had a great effect on its supply to British & commonwealth units, to manufacturing at home and to how shipping was employed/deployed.

This article published in the London Daily Telegraph but produced and published by Rossiyskaya Gazeta (Russia) ibcludes interesting information on Hurricanes to Russia and the RAF support to train:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/...

Finally I found this fascinating table that adds to Howard's initial post on figures - it is half way down the page - and lists individual types and aircraft and includes Canadian supplied vehicles too: http://ww2-weapons.com/lend-lease-tan...

[Rory]

Worth checking out. I liked it better than his first one.

[Lee]

Howard wrote: "I read somewhere that total us tank production for WWII was about 88,000. More than half were various models of the Sherman. "

Legend has it that the Soviets learned to prize Shermans for their mechanical reliability. One complete tank corps (or army, I forget which) in 1944 was equipped with Shermans, and used in the mobile pursuit across Hungary. They knew that the Shermans would still be operable after 100km of driving, whereas T-34s would not.

[Jarrod]

Rory wrote: "Thank you everyone for your answers to my questions--more to come.
But first, my thoughts:
1. Regarding when Barbarossa jumped the shark, well as tempting it is to say they never should invaded, y..."

Late to the conversation here, but I think you are spot-on in this analysis. Once the Russians figured out that they needed to stop and fight where they were they could beat back the Germans. The Germans didn't know how to defend conquered land, only take.

I'm about 2/3rds the way through Russia's War: A History of the Soviet Effort: 1941-1945 and find it to be a fantastic overview of the war effort on the Eastern Front.

It gives a great detail of how the non-aggression pact came to be and how it was more of a 'buffer' (my word) to war build up than anything. It also shows how ruthless the Russians were in the beginning in conquering Poland as part of the pact. I also never knew the extent that the US and Great Britain gave supplies to the Soviet Union for fighting. Raw materials / weapons / food, etc. I always had the impression that they were able to supply themselves. It also seemed to me that the Germans gave the Soviets too much time to plan and counter attack. Had Germany done to the Soviets, what the Soviets did at Stalingrad, it would have been a much different outcome, in my opinion. Surround and shell the city.

I ultimately think the Soviet resolve won the eastern front. From partisan fighting to a change of identity among the soldiers from Soviet to Russian labels, it tells of a vast swing in planning and execution. The Soviets did everything they could to win the battles, while it seems to me that the Germans were doing everything they could to not lose the battles.

While this gives a good overview, I would recommend further reading regarding many of the main individual battles: Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, etc...

[Howard]

I'm not sure about the Germans not knowing how to defend. The army fought well on defense. If you are referring to high level policy...maybe so.
I will say the Russians did something interesting near the end of the war. They had built up strength, particularly in artillery, so most major attacks were preceded by heavy bombardments. In the attack I read about, they ceased fire, which up to then meant that the infantry were closing in the advance. The Germans had long since learned to hunker down in their positions and come out to fight when the barrage lifted. The Russians knew this also, and for this big attack, they opened fire with a second barrage and caused a lot of German casualties. Patterns and habits.

[A.L.]

Howard wrote: "The Germans had long since learned to hunker down in their positions and come out to fight when the barrage lifted. The Russians knew this also, and for this big attack, they opened fire with a second barrage and caused a lot of German casualties...."

Slightly off topic, but I read about the French doing similar things to the Germans in Artois in 1915.

And more on topic, I read Eastern Inferno: The Journals of a German Panzerjager on the Eastern Front, 1941 43 . It's an interesting book and I recommend it for readers who enjoy first-hand accounts. It's made of three journals written by a German soldier, covering the initial invasion in 1941, the drive to Kiev, then a cold winter, another offensive, and disaster outside Stalingrad (he wasn't in the ring, but it was still a challenging winter for him). My review is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Excellent review A.L. I better go find my copy and see if I can squeeze it in for later this month.

I love how this group helps members not only find good books but ensures we read them at some stage!

[Lee]

I finished

I give it 3 stars, as I didn't pick up much that seemed new to me. If you haven't read up on him, then this would be a good place to start. A fair amount of pages are spent in his postwar career, including his times in and out of favor with the rulers of the USSR, and some on his post-Soviet-era fame.

Not a lot was given on his personality or personal life, but there was some.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Finished The Black March: The Personal Story of an S.S. Man. Very similar to A.L.'s book. Kudo to the publisher for putting maps(!) at the start of each major phase. So nice to have a reference for the battles. Neumann paints a good picture of the frustrations as the partisan attacks grow after an initial welcome of the troops as liberators of the local population. He relates several punitive forays and atrocities--interesting as he calls the partisans terrorists as they shoot up his men yet he acknowledges their right to do it. Overall a decent, if somewhat episodic account of fighting in Army Group South from '41-'45. There is some question whether this book is fiction or fact, but I thought it was ok either way.

My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Another great review Mike, thanks for sharing the details on The Black March.

[happy]

Good reviews A.L. and Mike, thnx

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Decided to read this one next, War On The Eastern Front 1941-1945. Maybe it will add some definition to The Black March. Pretty good so far, covers the impact of snipers and partisans on the German infantry. Also points out the depressive impact of the vastness of the Soviet Union on the foot soldier.

[Colin]

read my book Occupation and Insurgency on the interviews I did with Soviet partisans and SS leaders on the Eastern Front.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

It's an interesting book Mike, I think there is a chapter on a German bicycle anti-tank unit and also chapters on the tank and Stug aces in the German army.

[Howard]

In msg 103 (and others) there have been references to books by a US Col Glantz. Here is a link to a web page about less researched but important battles, many of which were between the better known. Some of the battles are recorded by only by one side.
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/docu...
The summary is instructive:
"Investigation of all of these issues and others will cast more accurate light on the war and will help dispel the many myths that the war has produced, myths which have and will continue to victimize the Soviet (Russian) Army and Soviet (Russian) historiography. In the final analysis, the old axiom remains correct -- that it is better to relate one's own history than to have someone else relate it."
When I was on active duty during the cold war some of the most personally interesting military publication were pamphlets and such which were written by captured German Generals who were asked to tell about warfighting and combat against the Russians in particular.

[Howard]

Someone previously mentioned that the Vaslov army was not well supported and dismissed its significance. Many Wehrmacht units were not well supported in Russia to say the least, especially compared to SS. What follows is quote about Russian turncoats fighting with the Germans:
"...there were then on the entire Russian Front 427,000 ex-Soviet soldiers serving in the eastern formations, who would have to be replaced by German soldiers in case they were disbanded. This figure did not include over 100,000 "Hiwi" who were not recognized as soldiers, nor Latvian, Estonian and Ukrainian formations."
I do not think this counts the 250,000 Cossacks that actively fought the Russians.
Despite vehement objections of Hitler himself, leaflets were dropped over Soviet lines and front line commanders were reporting thousands of deserters coming over to the Germans and asking specifically to join Vaslov. Had this program been done with the full blessings and support of the high command, what more might have happened. As it was, most actions were in secret because they had been prohibited by Hitler, and in the German army to do something forbidden by Hitler must have looked like a sure-fire success to take such a risk.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great link to "Forgotten Battles of the German-Soviet War", makes very interesting reading Howard, thanks for sharing.

[Ethan]

Just got the book by Lee Trimble from the library. Have been waiting for it for months! SO excited to finally get it to read. I didn't exactly know what it was about until now and it fits in perfectly with the themed read! I just have to finish The Envoy: The Epic Rescue of the Last Jews of Europe in the Desperate Closing Months of World War II first - which I am REALLY enjoying - then I'll start reading it. Really looking forward to it!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Sounds good Ethan :)

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Well a little over half way into the month and what a interesting theme read we have had so far. Great discussion wrapped around a wide variety of books. Thanks folks.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "It's an interesting book Mike, I think there is a chapter on a German bicycle anti-tank unit and also chapters on the tank and Stug aces in the German army."

War On The Eastern Front 1941-1945 is proving to be very interesting. Especially on the nitty-gritty of conducting war in cold, mud and dust. Just finished an account of how to build a railway across a frozen river. And the accounts of living and fighting in the severe cold of '41-42 were vivid! Also the description of how the German Army soldiers became less formal at the front while the Red Army reintroduced rank, insignia and privileges for officers. German soldiers called the combat badge for the eastern front, the "frozen meat" Order! Appropriate.

[Colin]

Howard wrote: "Someone previously mentioned that the Vaslov army was not well supported and dismissed its significance. Many Wehrmacht units were not well supported in Russia to say the least, especially compared..."

Read my two books; "German Anti-Partisan Warfare" (great interviews with partcipants regarding Soviet defectors, and great details on Vlasov and Bunyachenko, some comments from SS Gens. Karl Wolff, Leon Degrelle, Otto Kumm, Wilhelm Bittrich, etc.

The other book is "Occupation and Insurgency", with specifics on the Eastern Front from the participants on both sides as well.

[Manray9]

Thumbing through a book which has been on my shelf for years, I came across an interesting fact: In the late thirties the Soviets undertook a program to build a class of four cruisers known as the MAXIM GORKIY-class or Project 26-bis. Two of the cruisers were to be built in the Far East at Komsomol'sk na Amurye. The facilities in the Far East were rudimentary at best. The cruisers were not completed on time due to delays with important components caused by the war. The propeller shafts of the KALININ were manufactured in, of all places, the Barrikady factory in Stalingrad. After the fighting there, the previously produced propeller shafts were unearthed from the rubble of the Stalingrad works and shipped to Komsomol'sk for installation in the cruiser.

This is the book:

Raising the Red Banner: The Pictorial History of Stalin's Fleet 1920-1945 by Vladimir Yakubov and Richard Worth

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

An interesting piece of information, thanks for posting the details Manray9.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

War On The Eastern Front 1941-1945 was an excellent account of the Eastern Front from the German soldier's view. I particularly liked how he weaved individual accounts into his big themes--terrain, climate, strategy, tactics, weapons, etc. His discussion of SP guns and how they were developed, organized, employed, etc was excellent. A solid book packed with good info and great battles.